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Speaker 1: Now it's being reported that there are plans to make

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Speaker 1: changes to child protection laws to make it easier for

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Speaker 1: courts to put Indigenous children in non Indigenous placements. Australia's

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Speaker 1: National Children's Commissioners have warned against these proposed changes to

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Speaker 1: child protection laws in the Northern Territory, arguing that they

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Speaker 1: would undermine basic protections for First Nation's children to be

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Speaker 1: able to grow up with their culture and community. Now

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Speaker 1: joining me in the studio for the first time this

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Speaker 1: year is the Minister for Child Protection and the Prevention

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Speaker 1: of Domestic Violence, Minister Robin Carl. Good morning to your minister.

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Speaker 2: Are good morning, Katie, and good morning to everyone out there.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Minister,

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Speaker 1: Australia's National Children's Commissioners have warned against these proposed changes

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Speaker 1: to child protection laws in the Northern Territory, arguing that

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Speaker 1: it would undermine basic protections for First Nations children to

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Speaker 1: be able to grow up with their culture and community.

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Speaker 1: What exactly is being proposed here?

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Speaker 2: So, I think, first and foremost, Katie, I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important to say that the absolute priority in any

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Speaker 2: circumstance is the welfare and protection of the child, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to make any apologies for putting that

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Speaker 2: first and foremost. So in the course of the last

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Speaker 2: two to three months where we've been looking at what's

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Speaker 2: happening in that space, I've had a large number of

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Speaker 2: complaints that have been brought to my attention that I've

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Speaker 2: been looking into, where we've looked at how we actually

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Speaker 2: make sure that we do put the welfare and safety

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Speaker 2: of the child first and foremost. There have been some

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Speaker 2: very rare circumstances where we've identified that the strict application

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Speaker 2: of what is CALLUS twelve in that particular piece of

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Speaker 2: legislation has the potential to cause more harm than anything else.

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Speaker 1: So what are you saying that sometimes culture is being

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Speaker 1: prioritized over safety.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes the requirement, the perceived requirement to absolutely consult with

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Speaker 2: Because what people I need to understand is that clause

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Speaker 2: just doesn't say about placing children with families. And obviously,

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Speaker 2: whenever you've got a situation, it doesn't matter what your

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Speaker 2: background is. The ideal situation is to keep a child

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Speaker 2: connected to their family. But the consultation process can also

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Speaker 2: include Aboriginal communities more broadly, aboriginal controlled organizations more broadly,

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Speaker 2: and we've identified that there have been some circumstances if

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Speaker 2: that was to happen, then there would be an immediate

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Speaker 2: risk of harm to the child or an adult connected

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Speaker 2: to that child. So whilst there's not the requirement for

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Speaker 2: a strict application of the clause, that's the way things

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Speaker 2: have developed over the years, and looking into what's happening

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Speaker 2: in other states and territories, I've identified that every piece

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Speaker 2: of legislation has a clause which there's best interests of

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Speaker 2: the child, welfare of the child, and it reinforces that

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Speaker 2: into coming into clauses that specifically talk about Aboriginal children.

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Speaker 2: And all we're talking about is that that reinforcement that

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Speaker 2: over and above all else, the best interests of the child,

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Speaker 2: the wishes of the child should be put first and foremost.

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Speaker 1: Now I don't expect you to go into detail of

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Speaker 1: specific cases, but have there been situations where a child

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Speaker 1: has been put at risk because it's been more important

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Speaker 1: to place them, you know, with somebody that's maybe from

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Speaker 1: their community or that is maybe indigenous, rather than taking

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Speaker 1: them out of that situation.

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Speaker 2: I've certainly had people talk to about situations where, particularly

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Speaker 2: foster cares, where they've had children in their care who

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Speaker 2: have been returned to a community environment where the outcome

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Speaker 2: of that child hasn't been optimal, and where particularly, I

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Speaker 2: think the thing that worried me the most, or has

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Speaker 2: worried me the most, is where the child hasn't wanted

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Speaker 2: to go and there hasn't been the ability of the

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Speaker 2: child's wishes to be taken into account. I'm told that

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Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory children don't have a right to

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Speaker 2: independent legislative representation, so that's certainly something looking at as well.

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Speaker 2: But also where family members of the child have actually

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Speaker 2: feed in and said, no, we think that keeping the

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Speaker 2: child with the foster care, we already have a connection,

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Speaker 2: we're already really happy with the way things are going

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Speaker 2: would be our preference. But ultimately that's been overridden by

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Speaker 2: the court.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so who's being over zealousy at the court?

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Speaker 2: I think again, it comes back to the fact that

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Speaker 2: there is this growing belief that if you don't put

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Speaker 2: the welfare of the child or the best interest of

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Speaker 2: the child above the cultural considerations, we're going to fall

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Speaker 2: into a trap that occurred almost a century ago now,

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Speaker 2: and it's paralyzed some of the decision making and I

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Speaker 2: look at us now, and we're facing a situation where

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Speaker 2: we're going to be accused of abandoning these children if

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Speaker 2: we're not careful, and we really do have to make

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Speaker 2: sure that the welfare of the child is first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: and of course there is absolutely no intent whatsoever to

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Speaker 2: not have children remain connected to their culture.

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Speaker 1: On that point, we know that the head of Snake

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Speaker 1: is on records saying that the changes are discriminatory and

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Speaker 1: go against recommendations in numerous reports intending to prevent further

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Speaker 1: stolen generations. I mean, has there been consultation with Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: stakeholders about this.

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Speaker 2: There's been some targeted consultation with the department and key

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Speaker 2: stakeholders where they've discussed with and what the options are.

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Speaker 2: I understand some people feel that they've seen the draft clause.

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Speaker 2: That came as somewhat of a surprise to me because

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Speaker 2: the draft clause was only provided to my office a

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Speaker 2: week or so ago, and it certainly doesn't say anything

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Speaker 2: about overriding the principles generically, it certainly doesn't indicate that

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Speaker 2: the intent of the legislation is to do anything other

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Speaker 2: than make sure first and foremost kids are safe.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, we've had the National Children's Commissioner on

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Speaker 1: the ABC this morning. We've had children's commissioners out saying

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Speaker 1: that you know, this is not the right move. They're

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Speaker 1: concerned about these changes. Have you consulted with them and

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Speaker 1: do you feel like you need to well, do you

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Speaker 1: feel like we're in a situation here where this needs

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Speaker 1: to happen regardless of what they say.

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Speaker 2: Well, there has been consultation within the territory. The fact

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Speaker 2: that our local children's commissioner hasn't seen fit to extend

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Speaker 2: her discussions with the National Children's Commissioner, that's the matter

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Speaker 2: for her. I understand that any change is scary for people.

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Speaker 2: I get that. I get the fear that people are

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Speaker 2: worried about, Oh, we're going to fall into another trap

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Speaker 2: of a stolen generation. But as I said, that was

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Speaker 2: a century ago that started. It's been five decades that

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Speaker 2: we've been working to ensure that that doesn't happen again.

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Speaker 2: This is about making sure, first and foremost the children

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Speaker 2: are safe. And I really struggle with a situation where

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Speaker 2: there could be anybody in any cultural group that would say,

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Speaker 2: please put my culture above the safety and welfare of

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Speaker 2: our children. I just cannot comprehend that, Minister.

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Speaker 1: The ABC News reported last week that these leaked documents

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Speaker 1: outline a number of other principles the bill would make

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Speaker 1: it easier for courts not to follow, including enabling an

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal child's family members to be involved in the decision

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Speaker 1: making about them, making decisions about an Aboriginal child that

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Speaker 1: are healing focused and trauma informed, and placing an Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: child in care close to their community. I mean, is

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Speaker 1: this part of the legislative change that is going to

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Speaker 1: come into place.

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Speaker 2: I need. The first thing I need to say is

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Speaker 2: a document that's freely given for consultation is not a

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Speaker 2: leaked document. I think that's a really important thing to say.

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Speaker 2: You can't leak something that you've actually given document. There

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Speaker 2: was actually that there was a document. There is a

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Speaker 2: document circulated to a targeted group of stakeholders to actually

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Speaker 2: get the initial discussion going, which was followed up with

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Speaker 2: in person consco with those stakeholders to talk to them

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Speaker 2: about why we're looking at this, why we're thinking about

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Speaker 2: doing this. Clause twelve of that act is quite comprehensive,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it'd be easy for people to

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Speaker 2: pick and choose what they think this intent might be.

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Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, and I would encourage some

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Speaker 2: of the people who have concerns to look at the

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Speaker 2: legislation and other jurisdictions where first and foremost, where they

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Speaker 2: have similar clauses to our Clause twelve preempt that we're saying, yes,

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Speaker 2: this is the ideal scenario, but more than that, the

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Speaker 2: welfare and best interests of the child first need to

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Speaker 2: be considered. And that's the overarching principle of the Care

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Speaker 2: and Protection of Children Act for every child that may

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Speaker 2: come into care, and we're just saying that that should

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Speaker 2: never ever be overridden, that the best interests of the

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Speaker 2: child should absolutely be first and foremost, and let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: usually the best interest of the child is to undertake

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Speaker 2: that consultation and have them placed in family and in community.

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Speaker 1: Minister, if it is a situation where other states and territories,

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Speaker 1: you know, do have a similar clause or do have

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Speaker 1: this in place already, why do you reckon We've got

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Speaker 1: the national bodies coming out saying that this is not

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Speaker 1: the best move.

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Speaker 2: I'd suggest that they've not seen had a really good

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Speaker 2: look at the other legislation, and I would highly recommend

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Speaker 2: that they do that.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to move along because there have been

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Speaker 1: calls growing for the Northern Territory government to act faster

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Speaker 1: on addressing domestic violence. After the landmark inquest into domestic

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Speaker 1: violence that we know obviously has looked into the deaths

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Speaker 1: of four women, and we saw recently the alleged murder

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Speaker 1: of a woman in Alice Springs, unfortunately marking the first

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Speaker 1: domestic violence homicide for twenty twenty five. Now, my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that after that incident you announced eight point four

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Speaker 1: million dollars for service providers to run vital programs such

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Speaker 1: as women's safe houses, legal services and initiatives aimed at

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Speaker 1: venting violence and providing safety. Now is this new money

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Speaker 1: or is it part of the one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: million previously committed.

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Speaker 2: So that announcement related to the National Safety Framework. So

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Speaker 2: it was a co joint announcement in terms of funding

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Speaker 2: between the Northern Territory and the federal government, noting that

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territories contribution in that space is around ninety

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Speaker 2: percent of that funding. And it really is about giving

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Speaker 2: some flexibility and legal support to victims of domestic and

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Speaker 2: family sexual violence. So that's in addition to the funding

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Speaker 2: that we've been talking about, the thirty six million dollars

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Speaker 2: a year. And I'm actually really pleased to be able

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Speaker 2: to say to you, Katie, after some lengthy consultations and discussions,

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Speaker 2: And when I talk about consultation, I'm not actually talking

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Speaker 2: about sitting in a room with bunches of paper. I'm

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Speaker 2: actually literally talking about going out there on the ground,

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Speaker 2: which I've done right across the territory. I'm now in

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Speaker 2: the next phase of that, which is actually going to

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Speaker 2: remote community Souls that were a younger last week and

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Speaker 2: had a fantastic opportunity to talk to some of the

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Speaker 2: service providers there and the women in the community about

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Speaker 2: what they see as priorities. So we are now in

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Speaker 2: a position where we have some guidance around where the

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Speaker 2: gaps are, guidance around where we need to actually change

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Speaker 2: the way in which we're delivering some of our programs.

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Speaker 2: And you'll know, the Circuit Breaker program was a program

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Speaker 2: that we have piloted in Alice Springs and Darwin and

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Speaker 2: now Catherine, so I have actually had approval to roll

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Speaker 2: that out across the territory and commit that to be

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Speaker 2: funded for the next four years, so that we can

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Speaker 2: actually see that immediate intervention with kids at that point

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Speaker 2: where we can address root causes, and that rolling out

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Speaker 2: of that program across the territory is actually a response

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Speaker 2: to both Recommendation seventeen and fifteen in the Coronial Inquiry.

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Speaker 1: Robin to anybody that's saying at the moment that the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory government's dragging their fatal dragging their heels when

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Speaker 1: it comes to taking really serious, meaningful action when it

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Speaker 1: comes to domestic violence, I mean, what would you say

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Speaker 1: to those people listening this morning.

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Speaker 2: What I'd say is that what we've seen over the

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Speaker 2: last two decades is an increase in domestic violence. We

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Speaker 2: have seen in the last eight years an eighty two

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Speaker 2: percent increase in domestic violence. So clearly we have to

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Speaker 2: change what we're doing. So it's not saying that the

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Speaker 2: work that's being done by frontline workers isn't absolutely needed,

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Speaker 2: but potentially how we're delivering it isn't working. So a

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Speaker 2: really good example of that is I've been looking really

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Speaker 2: hard at men's behavior programs because to me, behavior change

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Speaker 2: is where you start. But not just for men. It's

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Speaker 2: about our kids. It's about how our communities respond to

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Speaker 2: domestic violence. It's a really much broader topic than looking

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Speaker 2: just with the men. And I was astonished to learn

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Speaker 2: that one of the best funded programs in the territory,

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Speaker 2: around fifty percent of referrals are rejected. And when I

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Speaker 2: asked the question, why yes, because of what is required

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Speaker 2: to be a valid referral, which I was informed was

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Speaker 2: that they could only accept referrals if the prayer had

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Speaker 2: been sentenced to a minimum twelve months. So straight away

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, that's not what we want to achieve.

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Speaker 2: We actually want to get in there from the get go.

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Speaker 2: So my goal is from the minute of charge that

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Speaker 2: we have people who are then referred to a behavior

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Speaker 2: change program. So the challenge in that, of course, is

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Speaker 2: when people in remand they are technically not guilty of

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Speaker 2: an offense, and so how do you deliver a program

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Speaker 2: to those people when they haven't been convicted of an offense.

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Speaker 2: But you can see that potentially there's some support work

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Speaker 2: that that can be given in that environment, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm currently working with the Attorney General's Office to see

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Speaker 2: how we might be able to do that, because, from

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Speaker 2: my point of view, the minute we get a charge

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Speaker 2: is the minute we need to step in because even

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Speaker 2: if at the end of the day that charge isn't

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Speaker 2: found to be there's been an altercation that's resulted in

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Speaker 2: that person being taken into custody and charge. So clearly

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Speaker 2: there's some work to do within that family environment and

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Speaker 2: we want to be able to get in on the

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Speaker 2: ground there.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, no doubt there is a more discussion to

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Speaker 1: be had in this space. I wish we had more time.

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Speaker 1: I just want to ask you finally. This morning, the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory News is reporting today that Lingiari MP Marion

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Speaker 1: Scrimjaw says there's a wall of silence concerning crime in

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs, claiming that the public's got a right to

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Speaker 1: know whether alleged defenders were on bail when they committed

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Speaker 1: an offense. Now. The claim comes as authorities remained tight

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Speaker 1: lipped around the arrest of eight girls who are alleged to

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Speaker 1: a physically removed a woman from her car before stealing

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Speaker 1: her vehicle. Now, a thirteen year old, a fourteen year old,

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Speaker 1: one fifteen year old, as well as two sixteen and

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Speaker 1: seventeen year olds were arrested. Now, when approached by the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory News. Police apparently refused to reveal whether any

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Speaker 1: of the alleged defenders were known to police or were

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Speaker 1: on bail at the time of the incident. But essentially

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Speaker 1: what Miss Scrimdaw is telling the paper is that the

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Speaker 1: public's got a right to know if there's been an

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Speaker 1: alleged defender that's out on bail that should have been

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Speaker 1: supervised but wasn't, or if they were subject to an

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Speaker 1: order from Territory Families as part of a child protection order,

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Speaker 1: who was monitoring them? I mean, does the public have

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Speaker 1: a right to know in these instances.

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Speaker 2: I think we've made it really very clear, particularly around

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Speaker 2: when we're dealing with offenders who have been out on bail,

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Speaker 2: with the changes to the laws that came into play

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of the Declan's Law, that if any

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Speaker 2: of these perpetrators, alleged perpetrators were out on bail and

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Speaker 2: they have been involved in a violent offense, they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be released on bail. Again, that's been made very clear.

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Speaker 2: I think the challenge is how do you balance a

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Speaker 2: fair hearing and a fair approach with keeping the community safe.

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Speaker 2: I have certainly been asking the question of the Department

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Speaker 2: where we have children in our care who are supposed

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Speaker 2: to be in bail accommodation. How do we actually make

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Speaker 2: sure and support and ensure that that is actually happening.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of work to do in this and

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Speaker 2: I think you know, Marian Scrimure is correct. The community

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Speaker 2: does need to know that they're safe. One of the

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Speaker 2: very strongest messages I had given to me during the

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Speaker 2: election campaign by a local businessman was we deserve to

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Speaker 2: be safe today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year.

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Speaker 2: And we absolutely do and every effort is being made

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Speaker 2: to ensure that that is what happens. And I know

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Speaker 2: that the Chief Minister, in her role as Minister for Police,

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Speaker 2: will be looking very closely at what's happening in this

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Speaker 2: current situation.

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Speaker 1: We are going to have to leave it their minister.

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Speaker 1: Robin Carl, thank you so very much for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning. We'll catch up with you again soon.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you