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Speaker 1: I try to purposefully get to a sixty or eighty

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Speaker 1: percent answer on something and stop and just say, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to walk away from this, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask my brain the question, what's one hundred percent answer,

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Speaker 1: and not expect my brand to give me an answer

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Speaker 1: in the moment, but just know that it's somewhere in there,

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Speaker 1: so that when I'm in a moment where I'm beginning

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Speaker 1: to disappear again, the subconscious is doing the work that

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Speaker 1: the subconscious does.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into today's interview, I wanted to firstly

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Speaker 2: do a shout out to all the kind people that

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Speaker 2: have been leaving reviews for How I Work. I read

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Speaker 2: every single one of them and they're just ringing such

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Speaker 2: a big smile to my face. It's so nice to

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Speaker 2: get feedback from listeners, So thank you, thank you, thank

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Speaker 2: you to everyone that's done that and if you're enjoying

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Speaker 2: how I work and you maybe haven't left a review,

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Speaker 2: then maybe today's the day where you might do that.

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Speaker 2: You might leave a star rating, which is awesome and

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Speaker 2: thank you to the several hundred people that have done that.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe you might write a few words, so thank

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Speaker 2: you if that is you. And one other thing before

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Speaker 2: we get on with today's show is that you might

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Speaker 2: have heard that I have recently launched a second podcast,

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Speaker 2: which is called How to Date with my best girlfriend Monique.

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Speaker 2: The show is all about helping us get better at dating,

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Speaker 2: which is exactly what we're both doing, both being about

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Speaker 2: a year out of our respective marriages. So if you're

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Speaker 2: interested in learning about how to become a better day

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Speaker 2: and maybe consuming more on my podcast, then search for

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Speaker 2: How to Date wherever you get your podcasts from, and

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Speaker 2: I will also link to that in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's get on to today's guest. Who is

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Speaker 2: Scott d Anthony. This is the second time I've had

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Speaker 2: Scott on the show. I had him on oh maybe

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Speaker 2: a year and a half ago, and I've known Scott

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Speaker 2: for a few years. Our firms do a lot of

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Speaker 2: work together. And if you haven't come across Scott before.

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Speaker 2: Scott is a global authority on innovation and also the

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Speaker 2: former managing partner of inosit, which is a global innovation

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Speaker 2: and strategy consulting firm co founded by Clayton Christiansen, the

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Speaker 2: late Harvard Business School professor and the grandfather and really creative,

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Speaker 2: disruptive innovation. I want to say so. Scott has written

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Speaker 2: several best selling books, Got a new One out at

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Speaker 2: the Moment, Eat, Sleep, Innovate, and he also writes regularly

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Speaker 2: for Harvard Business Review. Scott has been awarded the Thinker's

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Speaker 2: fifty Innovation Award, which recognizes the world's leading thinkers on

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Speaker 2: innovation and really Scott is one of the smartest people

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Speaker 2: that I have the honor of knowing. So we talk

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Speaker 2: about all sorts of things in this chat, and in

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Speaker 2: particular how Scott's routines and habits and ways of running

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Speaker 2: meetings and workshops have dramatically changed thanks to COVID. So

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Speaker 2: this interview is full of really practical strategies around how

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Speaker 2: Scott has restructured the way he works some of his

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Speaker 2: new routines, and also how he's now thinking about client

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Speaker 2: engagements and meetings and workshops and things like that. So

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Speaker 2: on that note, let's head to Scott to hear about

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Speaker 2: how he works. Scott, Welcome back to the show, Amantha.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here as always.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to reach out to you again and

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Speaker 2: have you back on the show because now as we're recording,

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Speaker 2: we're in September. I almost had a mental blank. Then

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what month are we actually in? But no,

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Speaker 2: I believe it's September, mid September. So where gosh six

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Speaker 2: months or something like that into COVID and everything that

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Speaker 2: goes with that. And I know for you that life

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Speaker 2: looks very different because you were often on a plane

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Speaker 2: most weeks. So I want you to start by taking

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Speaker 2: us through where are you based and how has your

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Speaker 2: work life changed in the last six months.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm based in Singapore and I have been in

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Speaker 1: Singapore since March seventeenth on this leg. I've been lived

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Speaker 1: in Singapore of course for more than ten years. But

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Speaker 1: the six months now that I've been in one place

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Speaker 1: is I believe, the longest stretch I've been in one

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Speaker 1: place in my life. So my work life has changed

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Speaker 1: a lot, because you know, my work life used to

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Speaker 1: involve getting on planes and going to places, and I

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Speaker 1: have not been getting on planes and going to places,

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Speaker 1: and that has lots of knock on effects about how

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Speaker 1: I spend my time in the day, the hours, when

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Speaker 1: I do things, how I do things. We're a consulting company,

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Speaker 1: and impacts how we work with clients, how we get clients,

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Speaker 1: how we serve clients, lots of areas that we could

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Speaker 1: dive deeper into.

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Speaker 2: Wow, isn't that amazing? This is the longest period of

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Speaker 2: time that you've been in the one place. That's quite crazy.

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Speaker 2: I think I could probably claim that same thing too,

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Speaker 2: probably in the last decade. This is the longest stretch

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Speaker 2: of time I've been in Melbourne at home. So I

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Speaker 2: want to know what are some of the things that

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Speaker 2: you've changed, And maybe if we look at this on

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Speaker 2: a daily basis, because I know that when travel is

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Speaker 2: a part of work, like not many days really look

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Speaker 2: the same. But now that every day looks the same

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Speaker 2: in your home office, I imagine, what does a typical

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Speaker 2: structure for your day look like at the moment?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the typical structure for me, and there are

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Speaker 1: some days that are different because in Singapore at the moment,

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Speaker 1: inside the country, things are actually reasonably open and there

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Speaker 1: are opportunities to and I'm sorry for listeners who are

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Speaker 1: in different parts of the world, but there are opportunities

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Speaker 1: to go out and meet people in controlled ways and

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Speaker 1: all that. But there is some degree of variety, so

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Speaker 1: I just say that as a caveat. But a typical

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Speaker 1: day involves getting up a little bit later than I

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Speaker 1: did before, and I'll talk more about that in a bit.

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Speaker 1: It involves either having a morning of deep work where

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Speaker 1: I've got a task that I need to get through

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Speaker 1: and I'll avoid email until I do that task, or

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Speaker 1: doing a catch up where my brain will be tired

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Speaker 1: and i just want shallow work just to feed it

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Speaker 1: a little bit in the morning.

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Speaker 3: Then usually in the middle part of the day there's.

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Speaker 1: A few meetings that tie to things that are being

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Speaker 1: done on this time zone, and then there's a break

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Speaker 1: between about six and eight to spend time with the

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Speaker 1: family and have dinner. And then from eight until it's done,

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Speaker 1: there are calls that are on the European and US

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Speaker 1: time zone, and those will go anywhere from most nights

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven, some nights two or three. And that's

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Speaker 1: been one of the things that's been a big shift

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Speaker 1: for me in that I didn't used to do calls

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Speaker 1: that late. But one of the pandemic opportunities is I

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Speaker 1: could be anywhere in the world with a push of

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Speaker 1: a button. So I've kind of expanded my view of

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Speaker 1: where I can serve clients from Asia to anywhere. And

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Speaker 1: you know, of course it's tiring to do something between

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Speaker 1: two and four in the morning, but it's easier than

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Speaker 1: dealing with twelve hours of time zone changes. So this

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Speaker 1: has had a lot to knock on effects about how

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Speaker 1: I think about things and all that. But that's what

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Speaker 1: a quasi typical.

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Speaker 3: Day looks like.

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Speaker 2: I feel exhausted hearing that you're doing meetings at one

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Speaker 2: or two in the morning. I'm quite lakish in my behavior.

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Speaker 2: I'll sort of naturally wake up at about somewhere between

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Speaker 2: five thirty and six thirty. And I remember the last

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Speaker 2: time we spoke a couple of weeks ago, I think

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Speaker 2: you'd had a two am meeting and then a seven

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Speaker 2: am meeting or something crazy like that. So to start with,

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Speaker 2: how are you even functioning at that time of night

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Speaker 2: and has that actually changed? Essentially, like the chronotype that

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Speaker 2: you're running on in terms of your normal sleep wake cycle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely has.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's traces back to the experience I had

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Speaker 1: when I came back to Singapore in the middle of March.

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Speaker 1: So you know, we were supposed to have a big

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Speaker 1: face to face meeting in North America with one of

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Speaker 1: our big clients, and then that meeting went from face

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Speaker 1: to face to virtual and you know, everything was happening.

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Speaker 1: So I just flew back to Singapore. But I decided

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Speaker 1: the first week I was in Singapore, when I was

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Speaker 1: isolated for fourteen days, that I was going to roughly

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Speaker 1: keep myself on the US time zone so that when

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Speaker 1: we did the virtual meeting, I would just be in

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Speaker 1: tune with the meeting. So that was kind of weird,

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Speaker 1: But then I realized it actually wasn't that hard. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're stuck in a place and you're trying to

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Speaker 1: adjust to different time zones, and at least for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm able to adjust my sleep cycle a little bit,

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Speaker 1: I could do that. And I said, okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: as long as we're in the situation, I should essentially

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Speaker 1: mentally put myself on the time zone of the Maldives,

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Speaker 1: which was, you know, a nice, nice place to imagine,

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Speaker 1: which is, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, a few hours earlier than Singapore.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it just means that I'm starting my

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Speaker 1: day mentally a little later and ending it mentally a

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Speaker 1: little later. And you know, as long as I found

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Speaker 1: that I get enough sleep in between the two, I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: And I don't usually have things that go until two

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Speaker 1: and then start at seven. Those are anomalous days. I

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Speaker 1: tried very hard if I've got a quirky meeting after

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Speaker 1: midnight to just have the morning be clear, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: that doesn't work and you have to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: But I never do that more than one day, so.

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Speaker 3: I don't do that back to back days.

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Speaker 1: If I've got a week where I've got a couple

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Speaker 1: things that are post midnight, the mornings are as clear

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Speaker 1: as they possibly can be.

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Speaker 3: And as part of that too.

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Speaker 1: I blocked off all all Monday mornings and all Friday afternoons.

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Speaker 1: And so this is just times when I'm just not

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Speaker 1: going to take other meetings.

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Speaker 2: And what strategies are you using for I guess that's

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Speaker 2: sleep shifting to effectively be in a different time zone

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Speaker 2: to the one that you're living in, where the daylight

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Speaker 2: is generally the thing that gets us into local times,

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Speaker 2: So how are you doing that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm thankful for whatever genetics

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Speaker 1: have enabled this to be mostly possible, But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's mostly making sure that I manage the calendar. Is

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Speaker 1: at least for me, the thing that wakes me up

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Speaker 1: as much as anything else is the stress of what's

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Speaker 1: coming in front of me. So you know, it's one

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Speaker 1: of these weird things. And I'm sure you have similar experiences.

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Speaker 1: It's like if you have an early morning meeting and

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Speaker 1: you know that you need every minute of sleep, you

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Speaker 1: still wake up before an alarm because you're anxious about.

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Speaker 3: The early morning meeting.

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Speaker 1: And to me, a large part of it is just

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Speaker 1: making sure that my brain is cleared when I know

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Speaker 1: that I'm going to have a weird no, so I

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Speaker 1: don't have that stress leading to me getting up early.

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Speaker 1: I also always give space, and I know I need

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Speaker 1: space between my last work activity and bed. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's an hour an hour between the last thing that

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Speaker 1: I do and when I'm able to go to sleep,

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Speaker 1: so I just prepare for that. And I have started

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Speaker 1: doing meditation and deep breathing, which is something I did

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Speaker 1: not do before the middle of the pandemic, so it

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Speaker 1: is something that I found helps as well.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, just managing.

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Speaker 1: Food and stuff like that as well, and of course

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Speaker 1: all of this. You know, we've got four kids here

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Speaker 1: in Singapore, and we have clear division of responsibilities, and

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Speaker 1: there are mornings where I get the kids and my

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Speaker 1: wife gets to sleep, and there are mornings where my

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Speaker 1: wife gets up and I get to sleep, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we're very transparent and open about those discussions. You know,

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Speaker 1: the weekends have generally been the times where I've been

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Speaker 1: getting up earlier because I tend not to have late

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Speaker 1: calls then, and just making sure that we balance and

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Speaker 1: manage it that as best we can.

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Speaker 2: I want to dig into deep and shallow work. You

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Speaker 2: mentioned that as part of your routine, and I remember

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Speaker 2: when we spoke last a lot of your deep work

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Speaker 2: rituals took place when you're on a plane and therefore

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Speaker 2: disconnected from all things digitally distracting and also in cafes

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Speaker 2: and sort of other such places. So how does your

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Speaker 2: deep work ritual work now? And I guess how are you?

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Speaker 2: Trigging is not quite the word, but it is kind

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Speaker 2: of tricking your brain into going, okay, this is deep

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Speaker 2: work time, because I found for myself I completely had

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Speaker 2: to change my habits and triggers around that, because I

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Speaker 2: too would do a lot of my deep work in

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Speaker 2: cafes and on planes, which is now no longer an

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Speaker 2: option at all in Melbourne where I'm based.

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Speaker 1: No, absolutely, And you know, so the planes have certainly

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Speaker 1: been out for me. The cafes are conceivable but challenging,

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Speaker 1: you know, because you're then either very with Singapore regulation,

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Speaker 1: you're either very slowly nursing a drink, or you're sitting

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Speaker 1: around with a mask on, which just makes you conscious

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Speaker 1: and it's just a little bit harder for your brain.

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Speaker 1: Done one and focus, I've found, so for me it

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Speaker 1: really has been three things. Number one has been being

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Speaker 1: even more ruthless about scheduling the time, making sure that

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Speaker 1: I use some of the things Amantha that you've taught

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Speaker 1: me about making sure that you put formal time on

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Speaker 1: the calendar for things, and then making sure that that

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Speaker 1: is time that you hold sacracent.

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Speaker 3: So that's number one.

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Speaker 1: Number two, to trick my brain, I do change space,

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Speaker 1: just I do it within the place in which we live.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I again am fortunate that there's enough

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Speaker 1: different places that I can work. You know, we've got

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Speaker 1: a nice porch that if the weather is good, can

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Speaker 1: be a good place to get stuff done. And the

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Speaker 1: kids are in school. Schools are open here, so there

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Speaker 1: are good quiet periods of time where I can actually

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 3: Where sometimes you know, it's at weird hours.

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Speaker 1: You know, it could be quite late at night where

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Speaker 1: you get that moment where you've got ninety minutes just

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Speaker 1: to crank through things in between calls.

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Speaker 3: So it's making sure.

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Speaker 1: It's not all done with the in the home office

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Speaker 1: where I sit most of the time, but it's in

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Speaker 1: different spaces in the house. And number three, I've used

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Speaker 1: music a lot as the way just to get my

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Speaker 1: brain into flow.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: There's just certain mixes that I have or playlists on

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Speaker 1: Spotify that just tell my brain this is when you're

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Speaker 1: going to actually engage in a task. And I found

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Speaker 1: for me, at least, I get much more in flow

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Speaker 1: when I have background music. And I'm very thankful for

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Speaker 1: the AirPod pros from Apple. They're just to me just

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Speaker 1: phenomenal noise blockers, so you really can just immerse yourself

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Speaker 1: in sound and just disappear in what you're working on.

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Speaker 1: So those are the things.

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Speaker 3: That I've done.

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Speaker 2: That's great. What are your go to playlists then for

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Speaker 2: your deep work?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's a mix of different things, you know, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's just following threads, you know. So I like

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Speaker 1: music a lot. They are all things that I've created.

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Speaker 1: If I'm trying to do deep work. This is not

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Speaker 1: when I listen to my favorite band, which is a

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam is good for other things, but it is

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Speaker 1: not good for deep work. But usually I will have

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Speaker 1: some album that I've just recently. Recently, I purchased a

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Speaker 1: new album from Phoebe Bridgers and Bright Eyes, and there's

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Speaker 1: just a tonality in both of those albums that's just

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Speaker 1: good for me when I'm working. And then I'll go

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Speaker 1: from those albums and sometimes go to Spotify radio off

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Speaker 1: the songs.

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Speaker 3: Actually do buy albums, by the way, I just you know, I.

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Speaker 1: Feel like in the creative space, I write things and

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Speaker 1: I hope people buy some of the things that I do.

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Speaker 1: So I always feel like for artists, if I am

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Speaker 1: listening to the music, I owe it to them to

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Speaker 1: buy the albums as well, you know. So I buy

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Speaker 1: a couple dozen albums a year, and it just changes

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Speaker 1: depending on mood. But it tends to be things that

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Speaker 1: are a little bit discordant sonically, but not things that

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Speaker 1: are too loud, if that makes sense. So something where

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Speaker 1: I can kind of feel the noise but it's not

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Speaker 1: disruptive to my brain. I've actually never thought about that before,

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Speaker 1: but that's at least the way that I think about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very interesting. I remember, like a couple of

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Speaker 2: years back now, I had Matt Mullenwig on the show,

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Speaker 2: the co founder of Automatic, and he had a strategy

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Speaker 2: where he would to get into flow. He would listen

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Speaker 2: to the same song on repeat. Do you ever do

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Speaker 2: that or is it always circling like straight through the album.

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Speaker 1: I never listened to the same song and repeat. And generally,

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Speaker 1: if I'm trying to lose myself, it is some collection

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Speaker 1: on random, because if I listen to something in order,

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Speaker 1: like if I listened to the Phoebe Bridges album in order,

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Speaker 1: my brain is starting to track into and it knows

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Speaker 1: what's coming, and I get kind of pulled too much

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Speaker 1: into the music on random for whatever reason, our brain

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Speaker 1: kind of loses it.

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Speaker 3: You know, you hear it, you hear it, but.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that you're tracking and figuring out it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really make sense because you would think if you're

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Speaker 1: listening to something where you know what's coming next, it's

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Speaker 1: a way to not have to process things, and when

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Speaker 1: you get surprised by a song, then you have to

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Speaker 1: stop and think about it for a second. But at

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Speaker 1: least for me, it just helps me disappear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting listening to you talk about it almost

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Speaker 2: makes me want to experiment with music again. I've tried

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Speaker 2: different strategies around music and working rituals, and I did

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Speaker 2: try the same song on repeat. I remember when I

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Speaker 2: was going through a massive Hamilton stage quite a while ago.

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Speaker 2: Now I would have a particular song on repeat from Hamilton,

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Speaker 2: which I found I found quite good because you just

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Speaker 2: sort of get into the zone and it does become

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Speaker 2: background music quite quickly when it is the same song.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's almost caterintuitive what you're saying about the

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Speaker 2: random music. But I'm feeling all inspired to try music again.

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Speaker 2: When I work now, I want to look at shallow

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Speaker 2: work because you said something interesting where some mornings you'll

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Speaker 2: feel the need to feed your brain with shallow work.

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Speaker 2: And for me that just kind of struck something in

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Speaker 2: me because in my own possibly quite rigid rule book.

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Speaker 2: It's like, hang on shallow work in the morning. The

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Speaker 2: only time I would do that is if I've got

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Speaker 2: a keynote in the morning, and I know I can't

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Speaker 2: get into flow before the keynote because I'll just be disrupted.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about how you know when you're going

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Speaker 2: to do shallow work in the morning. And I'm just

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Speaker 2: curious to understand more about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, some of this is just again

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Speaker 1: just given the reality of the way that twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: has worked. You know, my chronotype, according to the test

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Speaker 1: that I took about reinventing your work day, is a

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Speaker 1: middle bird. So I am neither a lark nor a

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Speaker 1: night owl. But the thing I find for me is

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Speaker 1: where I am at my best really is circumstance contingent.

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Speaker 1: So there are some days where I've not worked that late.

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Speaker 1: I've woken up after a good sleep and I can

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Speaker 1: hop out of bed and I could go and write

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Speaker 1: a chapter of the book. And there are other days

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Speaker 1: where it's been more fragmented, it's been later. I've had

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Speaker 1: a chopping morning where there's just no way I could

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Speaker 1: do it. I just I'm not going to be really

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Speaker 1: deep functional until later in the afternoon or early in

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Speaker 1: the evening, and I have a reasonably good sense of

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Speaker 1: myself to just have a feeling as to what type

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Speaker 1: of day it is, and if it's a day like that,

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Speaker 1: then I'll flip around and say, Okay, this is a

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Speaker 1: great day to do stupid stuff and just answer the

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Speaker 1: emails that need to get answered. And I know I'm

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Speaker 1: beating them whatever skinner light dopamine hit when I do it,

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Speaker 1: and I know I'm not really making progress with anything material,

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Speaker 1: but it's just.

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Speaker 3: A way to kind of warm up.

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Speaker 1: And there are other days where that is the exact

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Speaker 1: last thing that I will do, where I will say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I really do have it in my brain to do it,

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Speaker 1: and I need that focus first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and I won't even look at email.

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Speaker 3: So to me, it's very circumstanced contingent.

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Speaker 1: And I do have something that I adopted as a

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Speaker 1: ritual a couple of years ago that is held, which is,

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Speaker 1: I do not look at email first thing in the

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Speaker 1: morning under any circumstance. So I wake up and I

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Speaker 1: do other things, and I might look at what's app

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Speaker 1: to see who's texted me, and I'll read some sports news,

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Speaker 1: and I'll look at other things, and it is only

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Speaker 1: until I've had my first sip of coffee that i

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Speaker 1: will allow myself to look at email.

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Speaker 3: And some days it's not even that. If I really

403
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Speaker 3: have a deep work task, I won't even peek because

404
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Speaker 3: you know you know this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you tell other people this, You tell yourself, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I can just look and not engage. But your brain

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Speaker 1: just starts worrying once you see these emails and you're like, oh,

408
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Speaker 1: here all this super stuff that I need to deal.

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Speaker 1: Not that my colleagues asked me to do super stuff,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you know the point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, given the amount of time that you were

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Speaker 2: spending traveling and now that's completely been removed from your life.

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Speaker 2: And I say this because obviously plane travel is so

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Speaker 2: good for work in many ways, and particularly when that's

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Speaker 2: become quite habitual and almost this Pavlovian response I find

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Speaker 2: when I'm on a plane, I'm completely focused. There's so

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Speaker 2: much ineffective and unusable time when you are traveling a

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Speaker 2: little lot, like you know, moving from an uber to

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Speaker 2: the airport, going through security, waiting in lines, and all

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Speaker 2: those sorts of things like I feel like you must

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Speaker 2: have a lot of time now that you didn't have previously,

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Speaker 2: And I want to know if Astley ah, like, how

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Speaker 2: conscious of you are that, and are you also conscious

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Speaker 2: of deliberately using that time in other ways?

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Speaker 1: I am definitely conscious of it. But there's a bite

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Speaker 1: that relates to new habits during the pandemic. We moved

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Speaker 1: right before the pandemic end of February to a place

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Speaker 1: that's about a two minute walk to the Botanic Gardens

429
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Speaker 1: in Singapore, and I think this is true. I think

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the days since the pandemic started

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Speaker 1: after I got out of my quarantine, I've spent at

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Speaker 1: least thirty minutes in the garden, and many days more

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Speaker 1: than that going on long walks or going for runs,

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Speaker 1: sometimes doing work concurrently with it. Sometimes I will go

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Speaker 1: and do some of the shallow work email while walking

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Speaker 1: through the gardens. Sometimes I will purposely not do anything

437
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Speaker 1: but just let my subconscious work on things as I'm

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00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: walking and listening to music. Sometimes I don't want to

439
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: work on anything. I just want to walk or run

440
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: or listen to music or whatever. But that's kind of

441
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: been the equivalent, you know, if it's thirty to ninety

442
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 1: minutes a day. That's kind of the equivalent of waiting

443
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: in lines for planes that or dealing with it those

444
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: moments where you just have time when you can't really

445
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 1: do something.

446
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 3: It's kind of the same thing for me.

447
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm conscious, but I also have consciously put in

448
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: something else that is a routine and ritual that does

449
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: not involve me sitting in a place staring at a screen.

450
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 1: And again, I'm very thankful to be in Singapore, which

451
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: has allowed that consistently. You know, even when it went

452
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: for the tightest controls that it did in April and May,

453
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: individual exercise was something that was always allowed. So you know,

454
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: they were restricted in terms of being with other people,

455
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: and they were restricted in terms of parts of the

456
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: garden you could go to to enable safe distancing, but

457
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: the garden was always open. And that's one of the

458
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: things that I've done just to you know, partially keep

459
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: myself from going too crazy during these times and also

460
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 1: to give myself space because you know, I have found

461
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 1: for me.

462
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes it's when you're waiting in a line.

463
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: To go through security that your brain's so engaged and

464
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, it's

465
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: like ah, a connection is made. And that is one

466
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: of the big things that I miss about travel. It's

467
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: just the change in stimuli is something that's always very

468
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: helped for me when I'm working on anything and just

469
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: you see something and you make a connection you hadn't.

470
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 3: Thought to make.

471
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: And I was working on an idea that this idea

472
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: for something related to leadership, and I remember the moment

473
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: where I had something that clicked together and I began

474
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: to see what it could be. You know, I had

475
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: been working, I stopped working. I went out to the garden.

476
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: I was listening to music. It was raining a little bit.

477
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: I was reading the Harvard Business Review. It was way

478
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: too much stimuli. But I was just walking past this

479
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: hill and like, ah ah ah, the answer are these

480
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: four things And it just it hit me in that moment.

481
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 3: And why then, who knows.

482
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: But it's just finding ways to continue to make sure

483
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: that you get the just diversity and stimulized so that

484
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: you could let your subconscious process, to me, is just

485
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: a really important thing.

486
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I do want to ask a bit more

487
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: about almost how you can take full advantage of those

488
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: walks or maybe other rituals that you have to think

489
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: more creatively. Like I remember a couple of months ago,

490
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 2: I had professors got Son and sh on the show

491
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: from Rice University, and he's done a bit of research

492
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 2: around how you can use rituals to boost creativity, which

493
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: almost sounds counterintuitive, And so he described something that he

494
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: did every day sounds similar to what you're doing, where

495
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: every morning he'll go for a half hour walk and

496
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: he'll deliberately walk the same path so that his mind

497
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 2: can kind of be focusing on other things, but also

498
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: in the same breath, he said, well, even though you're

499
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: walking the same path, there's going to be different sorts

500
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: of stimuli that you see on your walk. Different people

501
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: will be walking, different dogs will be out, and so forth.

502
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: So I want to know, how do you almost think

503
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: about priming yourself and these experiences, whether that be walking

504
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: around the botanical gardens or something else, to optimize for

505
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: creativity and those sparks of insights.

506
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: Well, to me, there's two things.

507
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: Number One, the gardens here are not tiny, but not

508
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: that big, So there's no no inch that I have

509
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: not gone through, So there's a little bit even if

510
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: it's not the same route it's not new, you know,

511
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: so I'm not discovering new things, etc. Although you know,

512
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: you always do see little things like the flower you

513
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: haven't seen before or whatever, So that there is a

514
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: routineness to it that allows your subconscious to work on

515
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: other things. And I do find that valuable. Is there

516
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: other times where you just you want to discover, you

517
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: want to lose yourself in a new place, and that's

518
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: a different thing, So I certainly would echo that experience.

519
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: The other thing for me is that I try to

520
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: purposefully when I wanted to flex this muscle, I try

521
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: to purposefully get to a sixty or eighty percent answer

522
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: on something and stop and just say, I'm going to

523
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: walk away from this, and I'm going to ask my

524
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: brain the question what's the one hundred percent answer, and

525
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: not expect my brain to give me an answer in

526
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: the moment, but just know that it's somewhere in there,

527
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: so that when I'm in a moment where I'm beginning

528
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: to disappear again, the subconscious is doing the work that

529
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: the subconscious does.

530
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: You know, just a practical example.

531
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: You know, I've got a session I'm running for a

532
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: European bank next week, and I started working on the

533
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: presentation materials about ten days ago, and I wasn't trying

534
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: to finish it.

535
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: Ten days ago.

536
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: I was trying to get a couple pieces done, and

537
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: a couple pieces very purposefully open, because I didn't know

538
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: what I wanted to say in those pieces, and I

539
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 1: just left them there, and I just left them messy,

540
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: and I asked my brain the question, how do you

541
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: make this last messy? And then you know when exactly

542
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: it comes You never know for sure, but it's in

543
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: there somewhere. So that that's the thing that I have

544
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: tried to do, and I've learned from this current moment

545
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: that at least for me, that's effective to give yourself

546
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: a sixty percent answer in a question and let your

547
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: subconscious do its work.

548
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 3: You know.

549
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the garden, sometimes it's the shower. Sometimes it's

550
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: in the middle of trying to adjudicate a fight between

551
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: the kids, whatever, just it comes to.

552
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 3: But you can't fully fully appreciate or predict.

553
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: I like that that's sixty percent rule. I can definitely relate.

554
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: Makes me more conscious of actually deliberately doing that now.

555
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: I remember when you were last on the show, we

556
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 2: spoke about how you'd gone about removing the majority of

557
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 2: recurring meetings from your diary, and you earlier in this

558
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 2: chat you mentioned that you've got no meetings. Was it

559
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: Monday morning and Friday afternoon?

560
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: Correct?

561
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what's happening now around meetings? What have you

562
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: found has happened in your own working life now that

563
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: we're not traveling? Like, are you in more meetings now?

564
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: Are they longer, are they shorter? What does that look

565
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 2: like for you at the moment.

566
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this this year has been a weird year

567
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: for all of us. You know, I think I've been

568
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: busier this year than any year that I can remember.

569
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: I just have had the good fortune of having interesting

570
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: client work taking place across multiple geographies, while also doing

571
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: all the normal stuff and a book coming out in

572
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 1: a month and all the things related to that.

573
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: So you know, it's been a very busy year, a

574
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: good busy year.

575
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: So I would say if I were to compare the

576
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: number of meetings now to previous years, I would say

577
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: they're up by a pretty material amount. And I would

578
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: say in terms of timing of meetings, I don't really

579
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: see a big difference. You know, I've got some meetings

580
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: that are short. You know, I've had a twenty one

581
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: minute catch up with somebody earlier today. I've got some

582
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: meetings that are longer. I've got a two hour session

583
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: with the cloud at the end of the day to day.

584
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: Very rarely has there been kind of the equivalent of

585
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: the all day meeting. You know, I think, like many people,

586
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: I have found that you get much past three three

587
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: and a half hours on any topic in a virtual world.

588
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: It's just really hard to make that work.

589
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: And the thing that I have tried to do personally

590
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: is I just don't function well if I've got three

591
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: hours blocked straight through of video meetings. So I have

592
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: number one tried to make sure that I do have

593
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 1: gaps in my schedule, and number two made sure that

594
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't do everything as a video meeting. There's somebody

595
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 1: that I've got a standing meeting with, my colleague Patrick,

596
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: who who you've met, Amantha.

597
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: We meet every week. We know what we look like.

598
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: We don't need to see each other, you know, we

599
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: always do that as a phone call, and we both

600
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: appreciate that.

601
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: You know, it's a weird thing. We have flipped this

602
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: year the world.

603
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: To having this almost obligation to have a video meeting,

604
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: and not everything needs to be done on a screen.

605
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: I think many times being able to really listen, I

606
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: think it's done better by a voice than by a video.

607
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, there's research to back that up. I

608
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: know some research I came across suggests that we're actually

609
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: better at reading people's emotions over the phone as opposed

610
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: to video, which seems completely the wrong way around. But yeah,

611
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: that's what's come out so in terms of making meetings effective,

612
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: because I feel like that's interesting that you're doing a

613
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: lot of meetings that make sense. But I think that

614
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: for people that are having good meetings, they are thinking

615
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: about meetings differently because face to face strategies don't necessarily

616
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: translate into the online world. And I want to know how, like,

617
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: what are some of the different things that you've been

618
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: trying in meetings to make them more engaging, more useful,

619
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: and more productive.

620
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: Ultimately, this is something that obviously we have thought a

621
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: lot about in our consulting work, because the way that

622
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: we did consulting pre pandemic was very hands on, very

623
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: side by side, very collaborative, and of course you have

624
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: to think about how do you achieve the same sort

625
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: of impact and have the same feel of collaboration in

626
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: a world that just has constraints on it. So the

627
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: couple of things that I've seen in a client setting

628
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: that have worked a lot is number one, the use

629
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: smart use of interactive tools, whether it's polling or other technologies.

630
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: You know, we in early March, my Collie g Asher

631
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: Debong with an outside developer, hack together, a pretty simple

632
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: engagement tool that we have found to be amazingly effective

633
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: to guide group discussions. So using tools to encourage discussion

634
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: is one thing. And then the second thing, if you're

635
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: on a platform that enables it, finding ways to break

636
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: groups into the smaller groups using Zoom, breakoutrooms or whatever

637
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: also as a way to make discussions much more engaging.

638
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: And I have found if you use these two things, well,

639
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: if you use pulling and engagement technologies and you use

640
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: breakout rooms, you can actually in some cases have more engaging,

641
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: have better virtual meetings than you'd have physical ones, particularly

642
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: because there is a democratization factor when everybody's box on

643
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Zoom is the same size. And I remember this experience

644
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: I had with the Singaporean company a few months ago

645
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: that just really struck me. It was a company that

646
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent owned by Tamasik, which is one

647
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: of the sovereign wealth funds here, and we were helping

648
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: them think through their twenty thirty strategy. And we had

649
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: on this session we had their top leadership team, we

650
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: had their board of directors, we had some of their investors,

651
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: we had some outside government people, and then we had

652
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: about a dozen up and coming leaders in the organization.

653
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: And I can tell you had we done this base

654
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: to face, there would have been a VIP table that

655
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: had all the important people at the front of the room,

656
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: all the younger people would be at the edge of

657
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: the room, and they would have said not a word.

658
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: But in a virtual setting using some of these engagement tools,

659
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: everybody is the same size and basically in the same space,

660
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: so we had wide participation. It was easy for me

661
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: to bring in different voices. We had people go toe

662
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: to toe against the chairman of the company in a

663
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: respectful way, of course, but just a really vivid, really

664
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: democratic discussion that was very unusual for my experience in Singapore.

665
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: So again I think done in the right sort of way,

666
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: there are some dividends that you can get from a

667
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: digital dislocation that can lead to higher engagement, more inclusion,

668
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: et cetera. Of course, it can be a lot worse too.

669
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got to actively manage it and create

670
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: space for emotions and all that. But I have seen

671
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: that there are some are some pandemic premiums.

672
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: That really stuck with me when we spoke a few

673
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: weeks ago and we were talking about the future of work,

674
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: and one of the benefits is that no one considered

675
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: the head of the table when you're running a Zoom

676
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: meeting or a Zoom workshop. And it's fine. It's not

677
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: something I'd actually consciously thought about, but now I think

678
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: about it a lot when I'm engaged in online experiences.

679
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: I want to know, what else are you thinking about,

680
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: whether that be for meetings or even workshops that you're

681
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: running with clients. How are you thinking about the openings

682
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: and closings differently, or are there any other strategies that

683
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: you've been experimenting with that you've found to be particularly effective.

684
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, a few different things.

685
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: So one, the ability to have kind of the side conversations.

686
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: It's a lot easier in a digital world than to

687
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: do it face to face, you know, so that you

688
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: are a discussion we have tonight is with one of

689
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: our clients. We have a Microsoft Team's chat with all

690
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: the NSA people on it, so that we can just

691
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: make real time calibrations, or someone can say, hey, this person,

692
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: I can see they really want to get into the discussion,

693
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: or we haven't heard from this person, or this person's

694
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: got something good to say about it because I've already

695
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: talked with them, blah blah blah blah blah, which is just.

696
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: Really hard to do face to face.

697
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: So you know, having whether it's Slash or Microsoft Teams

698
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: or Zoom or whatever or WhatsApp chat, having the ability

699
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: to essentially parallel path things I think helps a lot.

700
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: The other thing that we certainly have done, and I

701
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: think many people have done this is just have ground

702
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: rules up front. You know, camera's on, not off, and

703
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: if you need to go away and turn the camera

704
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: off for a few minutes, that's totally fine, and put

705
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: yourself on mute and turn the camera off if you

706
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: need to do it. But otherwise we want people to

707
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: be present and this is I use the chat window

708
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: for this.

709
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: And blah blah blah blah.

710
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: So having ground rules I think is important. And then

711
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: there's a group that I'm part of that was sharing

712
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: tips and tricks, and they mentioned something that I'd not

713
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: thought of before, but just small ways to do digital engagement.

714
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 3: You know, so opening a meeting.

715
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: By saying, Okay, where's everybody calling in from? Or what

716
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: did everybody have for their last meal or whatever, and

717
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: just have them to type into the chat window, or

718
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: even have something where you ask people to handwrite a

719
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: word and hold the word up to their screen, so

720
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, how are you feeling right now, and people

721
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: write it up and hold it up, just as a

722
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: very small way to get in game aagement and to

723
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: make things a little bit more human. And then the

724
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: final thing that I would say is, you know, particularly

725
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: for internal meetings, I mean, of course we've got the

726
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: business at hand, but you know, in today's world where

727
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: depending on the country you're in, there are at least

728
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: two and sometimes three crises going on. You know, there's

729
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 1: the global health crisis, there's an economic crisis in many

730
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: countries in the US, there's a social justice crisis, so

731
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of stuff going on.

732
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: Just giving space for people to be humans and.

733
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: Just say how are you doing and saying no more

734
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: than that and not to try to fix, but just

735
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: to try to listen. Create the equivalent of a holding

736
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: container for emotions. I found that's an incredibly important thing

737
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: to do. I wish I did even more of it,

738
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: because you know, you're just so used to getting into

739
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: the business at hand, but I think we all just

740
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: need to give that space for humanity right now more

741
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 1: than ever.

742
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: That's so true. And I really like that idea of

743
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: writing a word down on a shade of paper. I

744
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: haven't come across that before, and that's really cool. I'm

745
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: definitely going to be stealing that, you know, with meetings,

746
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: and something I've been thinking about a lot is just

747
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 2: the role of synchronous versus asynchronous communication, particularly in the

748
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: remote world, and I want to know how you think

749
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: about it, like when or what are the right types

750
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: of purposes or reasons to have a meeting and do

751
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: synchronous communication versus not because I think and what I

752
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: observe in a lot of the organizations we work with

753
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 2: is that there are a lot of meetings going on

754
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: that would best be served in an asynchronous way. I

755
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: want to know what your thoughts are about this and

756
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: how you think about applying that with the meetings that

757
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: you're setting and attending.

758
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great point, and I wish I had

759
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: a great answer to it, because I certainly have the

760
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: same feeling that you do where sometimes you end a

761
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: meeting and you say, well, that could have been an email,

762
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: and that that should have been an email or should

763
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: have been a one on one conversation versus a ten

764
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: person conversation with eight people listening.

765
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: And I have not seen a great framework for this

766
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: out there.

767
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: You know, you could imagine there's something around are you

768
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: really trying to actively collectively problem solve something versus in

769
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: part information versus gather data from people? And I suspect

770
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: there's something about is it one way or two way?

771
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: Is it single party or is at multi party? That

772
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: you could make some kind of two by two from

773
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: it and solve it. But I know it's true, you know,

774
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: I just I had a reinforcing moment. I was doing

775
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: a webinar for a European company and we were talking about,

776
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, what are some challenges some you know, internal

777
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: innovation problems worth solving and they say, you know, one

778
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: of our challenges is we can't get people to turn

779
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: on the video when they're in meetings. And because of

780
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: that it's hard to have, you know, good video based meetings.

781
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: And we talked about a little bit and the real

782
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: problem was they had people who were showing up to

783
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: meetings that were not present in the meeting at all.

784
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: They didn't want to turn on the video because that

785
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: would show that they were just doing other work.

786
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 3: They said, well why are they coming to that?

787
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: You know, there's obviously a much bigger issue there, you know,

788
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: and I do think dB Bank, who as you know,

789
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: it's a big vocal case study in the forthcoming book

790
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: Sleep Innovate, which the publisher would be mad if I didn't.

791
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: Mention during this discussion. So there you go, I got

792
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 3: it in.

793
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: So but dbs Bank, I think has done a really

794
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: good job of thinking about what are the rules and

795
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: rituals that you have to put around meetings and how

796
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: do you think about making sure there are clear purposes

797
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: for every meeting that you have, that you have clear

798
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: reasons why everyone's there every meeting. You have to come

799
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: to the meeting with three S one R, three suggestions,

800
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: one recommendation. The meetings have to have a meeting owner.

801
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 1: They have to have a joyful observer that's making sure

802
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: the meeting owner does their job. That's the Mojo program.

803
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: The Mojo is rated for five things, the degree to

804
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: which they are data driven, they take action, they keep time,

805
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: and a couple other things. There's an app where everybody

806
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: rates these things. At the end there's a leaderboard that's

807
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: provided so the meeting owner knows how they're doing.

808
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 3: So just very thoughtful ways to.

809
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: Think about are we using our collective time as effectively

810
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: and as efficiently as we can? And I think there

811
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: is so much more that can be done here, and

812
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: we just know that so much time is wasted on things,

813
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: and I wish I had a better answer for knowing

814
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,479
Speaker 1: exactly what those things are.

815
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: But that's at least a couple of stream of consciousness thoughts.

816
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: Oh that's great, Scott, And you've done your publisher, Harvard

817
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: Business Review Press proud by introducing the book. Although I

818
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: was just about to ask you a question about your

819
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: new book, Eat Sleep, Innovate, which comes out on October twenty.

820
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: Is that I got the date right.

821
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: You have it exactly right. It's the same date. We'll

822
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: see which one sells more. But Matthew McConaughey has a

823
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: book called Green Lights coming out on the same day.

824
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 3: I have failed in my effort to get us to

825
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: do joint promotion for our two books. But we will

826
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 3: see whose book does better.

827
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I remember you're talking about that. Well, I

828
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: won't be buying Matthew's book, if that's any consolation. But

829
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: I haven't got my hands on an early copy of

830
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: your book yet, Scott, I'll assume it's in the mail.

831
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: In all seriousness, though, how does one launch a book

832
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 2: in a pandemic? How are you thinking about that?

833
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 3: Yeah?

834
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: Again, you look for what is the silver lining? Which

835
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: is another book I wrote that was a decade ago.

836
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: But you look for the silver lining and things. And

837
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: the great thing about right now is again, I could

838
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: be anywhere, you know. So I'm going to be in

839
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: Japan tonight. I'm going to be in India this afternoon.

840
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to be in Thailand later this afternoon. I'm

841
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: in Australia now, you know.

842
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 3: So it's just my.

843
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Point of view has been say yes to everything. And

844
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: I've got some promotional things that are being done in

845
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: the US, in Europe, in Australia, in Japan, whatever, all

846
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: around the globe. So that is one thing that is

847
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: a bit of a silver lining, and everybody's in the

848
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: same situation, so they recognize and understand it. So that's

849
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: one thing. The second thing is trying to figure out

850
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: the connection points between the ideas in the book and

851
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: the circumstances that we're in right now, which is not

852
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: very hard.

853
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: You know. The book, as.

854
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's about essentially how do you create a

855
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: culture of innovation? And in the book we say that

856
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: innovators follow five behaviors and you need to find ways

857
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: to make those everyday habits, which means you've got to

858
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: overcome the inertia that stops them from being everyday habits.

859
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: We have tools and techniques for how to do that,

860
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: and you can make the argument very clearly that this

861
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 1: is a moment where we need innovation more than ever.

862
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: We need to innovate not to the new normal, not

863
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: to the new abnormal, those are depressing, but to the

864
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: new better. And if we're going to innovate to the

865
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: new better, we have to figure out ways to be

866
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: more curious, and to be more collaborative, and to be

867
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: more adept and ambiguity. And today's time creates challenges for

868
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: following those behaviors, but creates opportunities as well, So seeking

869
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: to find ways to connect the content in the book

870
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: with where people are right now is I think another

871
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: thing that will be important, and you know, we'll see

872
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: how it all goes. And of course, we have the

873
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: book available in every format that might exist, so you know,

874
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: of course, but people might not be going to bookstores,

875
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: but you know that the world is still shipping, so

876
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: you can still get physical books, and there are digital

877
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: ones and audio ones and all that last thing i'd say.

878
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: We are also planning to introduce, along with our publisher,

879
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: kind of do it yourself kit that augments the book.

880
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: You know, so of course there.

881
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 3: Are people who will buy the book, read the book,

882
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: and use the ideas in the book.

883
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: There might be some people who want some consulting help

884
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: to call us, But there's people in between that want

885
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: a little bit more help but don't want to full

886
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: on consulting engagement.

887
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 3: So we're working with Harvard.

888
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: To create a kind of do it with help sort

889
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: of kit to enable people inside organizations to use all

890
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: the ideas in the book, which I've not done for

891
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: anything that I've written before. So I'm very excited about

892
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: that as an additional offering that we hope will help people.

893
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 2: That sounds really cool. I love the idea of that,

894
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: and I want to know in the book because I

895
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: think it's like, it's a very practical book with practical strategies.

896
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: Is there a favorite strategy which is probably asking you

897
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: to pick your favorite child, but is there one in

898
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: particular that you particularly love and would like to share?

899
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this one's very easy, because this really

900
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: is the heart of the book chapters three and four.

901
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: So let me just give you the brief arc of

902
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: the book. Chapter one is definition, so culture of innovation,

903
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: one in which the behaviors that drive innovation success come

904
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: naturally or.

905
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 3: Five of them.

906
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: Chapter two then identifies what is the biggest blocker to

907
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: having this happen inside organizations, and we make the case

908
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: that it essentially is what we call the shadow strategy,

909
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: which is the way in which you do the day

910
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: to day work inside organization. We're institutionalized inertia crowds out

911
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: the ability to do something different.

912
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 3: So we say this is what it is, this is

913
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: what stops.

914
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: And then three and four goes into the tool we

915
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: suggest using, which is essentially something that's adapted from the

916
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: habit change literature. We brand it a bean. A bean

917
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: is a behavior enabler, artifact and nudge BAM. The behavior

918
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: enabler essentially activates what Daniel Konnaman would call system two.

919
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: It's the logical rational steps to do different things. It's

920
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: a checklist, it's a coach, it's a ritual. It's an

921
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: app that helps you do the hard work of behavior change.

922
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: The artifacts and nudges are the indirect things like the

923
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: pictures that push you in a direction, gamification principles and

924
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: so on, so you do different things with not even

925
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: thinking about it. Gets Daniel cottoman system one. And in

926
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: the book we have one hundred and one beans and

927
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: we have companion website where people can download them and

928
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: use them that try to overcome the inertia encourage innovative behaviors.

929
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: Things like the DBS Mojo, meeting owner, joyful observer being,

930
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: things like the Adobe Kickbox, things like the Tata Dare

931
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: to Try a prize, all things that people in the

932
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: innovation field would know the individual examples reasonably well. But

933
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: the idea of bringing it together with a simple three

934
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: step process to create a bean, which is not hard.

935
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: You identify the behavior you want to encourage. You identify

936
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: the behavior you're doing instead of that behavior, and then

937
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: you come up with the behavior enabler artifact and nudge

938
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: to overcome the compensating behavior and encourage the desired behavior.

939
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: I've seen people create beans in five minutes that are

940
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: pretty good and actually work. So that's the tool that

941
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: is my favorite in the book by far. It's simple,

942
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: but it works.

943
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: That's awesome. I love the sound of that. Super practical

944
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: and easy to use. Now, the final thing I wanted

945
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: to ask you about is, and I know you're not

946
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: a clairvoyant, but I know that you think about these

947
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: things a lot, is just what do you think the

948
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: future like? The next twelve months in your life as

949
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: a consultant who has clients all around the world is

950
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: going to look like like where will you be working from?

951
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: When will you be traveling again? Are we going to

952
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 2: just move most things into the virtual world? What are

953
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: you expecting the next twelve months will be?

954
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: Like?

955
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 3: A nice, nice, simple question to end the discussion.

956
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: You know, as you say, I'm not a clairvoyant and

957
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: all that, but I'll give you a few of my perspectives,

958
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: so you know, you just feel that the world desires

959
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: to move on, And yes, we have to deal with

960
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: health related issues, and different spaces and countries are going

961
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: to move at different paces, but you know, the world

962
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: wants to move on. The world is experimenting with different

963
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: tracking and tracing and testing methodologies. We have vaccines that

964
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 1: people are working on. Exactly how these things will come together.

965
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't know human beings want to be together, but

966
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: we want to have people move and not be stationary.

967
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: We want people to be able to gather, and I

968
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: just cannot imagine that we can't figure out some way,

969
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: even if we can't figure out the vaccine, to.

970
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: Have a lot more of that than we have now.

971
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: Speaking in the middle of September, So I'm expecting that

972
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: you're going to just see more stuff that looks like

973
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: normal stuff in the months ahead. That said, I think

974
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: we have proven through the last six months that you

975
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: can do a lot of things remotely and can do

976
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: a lot of things digitally. So I don't think in

977
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: any circumstance, even if a vaccine that completely eradicates COVID

978
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: nineteen arrives tomorrow and has spread magically throughout the world

979
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: in a minute, I don't think we're going to go

980
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: back to the way things were I think we are

981
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: going to have a different way in which we do

982
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: work now we think about it at in a sight,

983
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: if we were starting from scratch, we would have a

984
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: very different infrastructure. We would invest less in physical offices,

985
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: we would invest more in coworking spaces, best more and

986
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: having people all come together for short bursts of time

987
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: versus having people episodically come into an office and sometimes

988
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: run into people. You just think really differently about the

989
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: geographic construct. I think people will have a much higher

990
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: bar to go to face to face meetings. I think

991
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: there'll be many more virtual things. So that's something that

992
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,439
Speaker 1: I think you'll see in the medium term. And I think,

993
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: and again, I am a half full sort of person.

994
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: I'm an optimist by nature. I think you're going to

995
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: see just this huge wave of innovation energy that gets

996
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: it essentially what I call second order silver lining opportunities.

997
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: So first order silver lining opportunities. March and April the

998
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: world said we need more ppe, we need more ventilators,

999
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: we need to have more specific things, toilet paper has

1000
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: to be produced faster, whatever.

1001
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 3: But we have a whole set of very.

1002
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: Obvious things where if you're in those spaces, the pandemic

1003
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: is actually good for you, But then you get the

1004
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: knock on effects where people say, Okay, in the longer term,

1005
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: consumers are probably going to care more about immunity and

1006
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: they're probably going to care more about wellness. What new

1007
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: forms of opportunities open up. You're going to have more

1008
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: places that are working in hybrid fashion, some people physical,

1009
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: some people virtual. What are the new tools that can

1010
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: enable that to work effectively? And how do you create

1011
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: community across that? And people haven't figured this out yet,

1012
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: but people are working on it, and I think you're

1013
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: going to see some really amazing innovations that enable that

1014
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: to happen in a better sort of way. And then

1015
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: the final thing that I would say is, I would say,

1016
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: coming out of all of this, you have had a

1017
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: lot of miraculous things that have happened. In March and April.

1018
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: The world didn't stop moving, commerce didn't stop. Things didn't

1019
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: stop shipping, logistics didn't stop. People in many places were

1020
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 1: still educated, some places not, but many places still were.

1021
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: And I think we will pause and reflect about the

1022
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: power of innovation, the power of working in dispersed ways,

1023
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: the power of global commerce to do some truly amazing things,

1024
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: and we'll say what do we need to do to

1025
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: make sure that the next time something like this happened

1026
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: and we handle it better then we handled it in

1027
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: the March through June period. So I think there'll be

1028
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: a big moment of reflection in the world as well.

1029
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: So again, who knows, But those are some of the

1030
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: things that I see. I certainly see myself being on planes.

1031
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got touch would but I've got a

1032
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: trip plant next month to go to the United States

1033
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: to see some family and do some work that you know,

1034
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: these things aren't easy to do, and you have to

1035
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: in Singapore be prepared for two weeks of quarantine on

1036
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: the other side, but you know, they again the world

1037
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: lurches towards normalcy. So that's at least a few of

1038
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: my thoughts on the topic.

1039
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: Wow, amazing, And I can't believe you are going to

1040
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 2: be on a plane potentially next month. That blows my mind. Now,

1041
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 2: my very final question for you, Scott is if people

1042
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 2: want to connect with you, read more of your work,

1043
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: and importantly buy a copy of Eat, Sleep, innovate, what

1044
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: are the best ways to do all of that.

1045
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: So, of course we've got a companion website eat sleepinnovay

1046
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: dot com.

1047
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 3: So go to the website.

1048
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: It tells you more about the book and how to

1049
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: get copies of the book, et cetera. And then I'm

1050
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn and Twitter, and I use LinkedIn more than Twitter,

1051
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: but LinkedIn is the best place to find me. And

1052
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: of course the company in asit www dot inters dot

1053
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: com has all the great research in writing that my

1054
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: colleagues are doing in addition to my work, So those

1055
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: would be my suggestions.

1056
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: Awesome. I will link to all of that in the

1057
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: show notes. Scott, I've loved our chat. I always learned

1058
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: something new, if not many new things whenever we talk.

1059
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time.

1060
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 3: Oh, no problem, Mantha.

1061
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: And the best part will be twelve months from now

1062
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: we can see how horrifically wrong I was about some

1063
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: of the predictions about the next twelve months.

1064
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: We will see that's all right, Thanks Scott. That is

1065
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: it for today's show. If you liked it and know

1066
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: someone else that you think might benefit from it, why

1067
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 2: not share this episode with them? And as I mentioned

1068
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: at the beginning, if you're enjoying how I work, why

1069
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: not leave a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you

1070
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: listen to this from So there's it for today and

1071
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: I will see you next time.