1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to the 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Monday, the first of September. 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: I'm Lucy Tassel and I'm a Cholla Rock. 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: Last week, two police were shot dead while trying to 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: serve an arrest warrant at a rural property near the 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: northeast Victorian town of Poor Punker. A third was wounded 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: and is recovering in hospital. The man police alleged murdered 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: their colleagues is believed to be a sovereign citizen, a 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: person who does not believe in standard laws and governments. 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: In today's episode, we'll explain what you need to know 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: about sovereign citizens and their beliefs. Before we get into it, 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy. 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: You and I have been researching sovereign citizens this week, 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: following those developments in Victoria that you mentioned. Before we 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: get into who these people are and what they believe in, 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 2: can we talk about what brought this to our attention? 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely. This came to our attention as a few 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: kinds of stories do, which is that we saw it 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: come up on the TVs that we have mounted on 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 1: the wall of the newsroom that we have multiple channels 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: running on all day, every day, and all we need 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: to start with was that there was a police operation 24 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: happening in northeast Victoria. Now that caught my attention because 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: big news networks don't typically cover police operations while they're 26 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: happening unless something really big is happening, like something has 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: been leaked that suggests that there's a really big deal happening. 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: Possibly someone has been killed, someone has a weapon. That's 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: the sort of thing that tends to pass the threshold 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: for Australian news networks to be like, there's a big 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: police operation happening right now and we don't know much 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: more about it than that. So that immediately kind of 33 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: tipped me and the whole newsroom off to the fact 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: that something really big was happening. 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Now, I remember that day. It felt so chaotic and 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: so much was happening. Now, when did we start understanding 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: what exactly was going on? 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, over the course of the day we got 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: little dribs and drabs of information from the police in 40 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: various forms. Understandably, the situation was developing. They could only 41 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: give us so much information. But by that night, that's 42 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: Tuesday night, we had a press conference from the chief 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: of Police in Victoria. He said that ten police officers 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: had gone to a property in northeast Victoria to execute 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: a search warrant, that seven of those officers were physically okay, 46 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: but had been traumatized, that two had been shot dead, 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: and that a third was wounded like a gunshot wound, 48 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: so quite serious. And then he started talking about someone 49 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: that he at that point only referred to as the offender. 50 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: Now, can you break down what we do know at 51 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 2: this stage about what police are calling the offender. 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: We know his name is Desi Freeman. We know he's 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: fifty six years old. We know he has a and 54 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: kids because they actually presented to police officers later on 55 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: that Tuesday night. And crucially what we know is that 56 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: he is someone who is called a sovereign citizen. And 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: we also know that in the past, this belief system 58 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: that he subscribes to has led to him being involved 59 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: in an unsuccessful attempt to sue former Victorian Premier Dan 60 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: Andrews for treason in twenty twenty one. 61 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: Now, I feel like we've heard the word treason a lot, 62 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: but what does that specifically mean? Yeah. 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely. The crime of treason is maybe the most serious 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: crime there is other than murder in terms of how 65 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: the legal system treats it in Australia. It can cover 66 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: a range of fences. It could include killing the head 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: of state. It could look like launching war against Australia 68 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: as an Australian or helping an enemy of Australia to 69 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: harm Australia. Sorry to say Australia so many times, but 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: it really is about nations and what you, as a 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: citizen of a nation do to that nation. Victorian law 72 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: talks specifically about killing the sovereign, harming the sovereign. They 73 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: keep saying, quote the sovereign, maiming, wounding, imprisoning, restraining the sovereign. 74 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: I've lost count of how many times you said sovereign. Yeah. 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: But under the Victorian legal context, who specifically is that 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: referring to. 77 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's referring to King Charles the Third, who 78 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: is our head of state. His power is exercised by 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: Governor General Sam Mostyn. So under Australian law, the sovereign 80 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: that phrase means the king or the Queen of the day. 81 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: There's also this idea that a nation can have sovereign 82 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: tea so basically control over its own government, setting its 83 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: own rules. In Australia, this manifests as we have our 84 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: own independent government. We're part of the Commonwealth, but we 85 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: still we have our government. It makes its own rules 86 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: and its members are elected by us. So in a sense, 87 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: the nation of Australia has control over the nation of Australia. 88 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: Another country invading us to take over would be a 89 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: violation of sovereignty. And there's another context. You might have 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: heard the word sovereignty or sovereign and that's in the 91 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: phrase sovereignty was never ceded, So that's referring to the 92 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: fact that Australia's first nations never agreed to hand over 93 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: their land to the British Empire. That, of course, is 94 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: a legitimate idea, while sov CITs ideas are not. 95 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: So to bring it back to the topic of today's podcast, Yeah, 96 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: what would you say are the top three things people 97 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: should know about sovereign citizens? 98 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: So sob CITs we can call them solvi sits. That's 99 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: probably just faster. They have this idea of sovereignty that 100 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: is somewhere between the ideas of sovereignty being a single 101 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: person and sovereignty being something about government power. So I 102 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: think that's part of the first thing that I think 103 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: people should know, which is they should know about their 104 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: ideology and where it came from. Second, I think the 105 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: listeners should know about what they're up to in Australia. 106 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: And third, I think TDA listeners should know how and 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: why this belief system could lead to violence against police 108 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: officers specifically, since that's kind of what's brought it to 109 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: our attention this time around. 110 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: And to bring it back to your first point, what 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: do self sits believe in? 112 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a variety and a diversity of beliefs, but 113 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: I think broadly speaking, they reject government authority and the 114 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: rule of law, and they don't participate in traditional societal structures. 115 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: They instead perpetuate this thing called pseudo law, so fake law, 116 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: which is like a mishmash of legal jargon that can 117 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: kind of differ from person to person or from group 118 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: to group. It has, though a fundamental lack of clarity 119 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: that is quite easy to identify once you know what 120 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: you're listening for. There are certain catch phrases and words 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: like obviously sovereign, things like natural person, things like saying 122 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm traveling instead of driving. That it's kind of hard 123 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: to get into and it's quite complicated, but basically you'll 124 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: know it like you know when you hear it. There 125 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: are lots of examples online of that, primarily from so 126 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: of CITs who have been pulled over by police for 127 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: various traffic violations. And then again, I would say, another 128 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: crucial aspect of the belief system I would say is 129 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: this idea that at some point in history, governments, starting 130 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: with the US government, took away or sold the rights 131 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: of individual citizens and became corporations. Sovereign citizens tend to 132 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: believe that they have figured out a way to get 133 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: their original rights back from before governments became corporations, and 134 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: that this means that they don't have to pay taxes 135 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: or comply with laws, because all of these things are 136 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: part of the fake corporation government, not the true government. 137 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: Now, Lucy, you've touched lightly on the historical context of 138 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: this movement. Can you tell us a little bit about 139 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: where this ideology came from. 140 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it came from a few different groups in the 141 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 1: US in the mid twentieth century who were generally speaking 142 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: against paying taxes. It also stems from a group called 143 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: Posse Commatatis, which is a far right extremist, antisemitic, aca 144 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: and racist group that formed in the late nineteen sixties. 145 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: That group's beliefs were also strongly anti government and anti laws, 146 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: and involved the idea that the US Constitution was being 147 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: wrongly interpreted and that the government had no rights over 148 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: sovereign individuals or the money they earned. Again coming back 149 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: to paying taxes, So there's these kind of different streams 150 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: of ideas that are fairly united by this idea that 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have to pay taxes to a government that 152 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: has no control over us. 153 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: So you've broken it down in the US context and 154 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 2: bringing it home here in Australia, how has that manifested? 155 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: So something that was really interesting to me, the kind 156 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: of sovereign citizen idea, came broadly to Australia in the 157 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: late nineteen nineties, which is also around the time that 158 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: I realized I first heard of things like sovereign citizens. 159 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: But it was sort of presented to me as a 160 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: fun fact because I was thinking about the idea of 161 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: principalities or mini nations within Australia. I remember learning as 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: a fun fact in primary school. Oh there's a man 163 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: in this state and he calls himself the prince of 164 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: some made up nation, and he rules over a patch 165 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: of land, or he has an island. So that was 166 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: always presented to me as very lighthearted, like, there's this guy, 167 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: he lives in this place and he says he's the prince. 168 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: During the COVID nineteen pandemic, particularly during the lockdowns which 169 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: forced people online as their primary form of socialization, that's 170 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: when kind of SOBCIT ideologies really flourished in this country. 171 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: It was a kind of a perfect storm. The isolation 172 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: combined with repeated government orders to stay inside, as well 173 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: as a significant amount of mis and disinformation about the 174 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: safety of vaccines and government orders to get a vaccine 175 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: and tell the government so that you could participate in 176 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: public life. All of this kind of combined to for 177 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people pushed them towards this anti government, 178 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: anti law ideology. And as I've said, it was during 179 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: that time that we saw that attempt to sue Dan Andrews, 180 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: so late twenty twenty one. 181 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: See, now that's one kind of attempt on authority. Yeah, 182 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: and last week we saw another, you know, a very 183 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: aggressive one, the killing of two police officers, So what 184 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: do we know about sob CITs and the police that 185 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: relationship there. 186 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: In last week's case, the man suspected of killing those 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: officers had made several anti police social media posts over 188 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: the years. I think the first time this kind of 189 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: broke into the public consciousness though, was the terrorist attack 190 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: on police in Queensland in December twenty twenty two. The 191 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: attackers in that case believed SOBCIT ideologies. They also had 192 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: beliefs associated with Christian extremism which led them to murder 193 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: two police officers and their neighbor. But just to say 194 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: that sovereign citizenship was part of that. 195 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: As you've mentioned, we've seen multiple examples of these attacks 196 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: against police officers. Why do you think that, you know, 197 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: these beliefs have led people to extreme violence against them? 198 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: My kind of thinking, my analysis is that police are 199 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: the most visible and like accessible representation of everything that 200 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: sovereign citizens don't believe in, the fake government, the laws 201 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: that they don't accept, even like the tax dollars that 202 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: they refuse to pay. Because obviously police are a state 203 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: entity that gets government funding, which and government funding comes 204 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: from our taxes, so I can understand why in their ideology. 205 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: Police would be kind of the most visible representation of 206 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: everything they're against. The other thing about police is that 207 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: they're accessible. You can call them, They're visible on a 208 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: street corner, and as we've seen happen tragically now in 209 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: Queensland and Victoria, they can come to your home. They 210 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: can have a legitimate reason to come to your property. 211 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: Wow, that's really interesting. Thank you so much for explaining 212 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: that to us, Lucy. 213 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: Thanks Atop. 214 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 2: We'll be back again this evening with the day's headlines 215 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: and then with another deep dive tomorrow morning. Until then, 216 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: have a great day. My name is Lily Madden and 217 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: I'm a proud Aranda Banjelung Kalkadin woman from Gadighl country. 218 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 219 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 220 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: all Aboriginal and Torrestrate island and nations. We pay our 221 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past 222 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: and present.