1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: So most people have been led to believe that it's 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: repetition that creates habits, and that's wrong. But what people 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: have heard is like, if you repeat a behavior twenty 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: one days, it will become habit, or sixty six days 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: or one hundred and two or whatever. And it turns 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: out that's not the case. If you look at the 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: studies that are cited for that, those studies show that 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: habits strength correlates with repetition, but they don't show that 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: it causes repetition. And what causes it surprisingly at first, 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: but once you see it, it's obvious. It's the emotion 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: you feel when you do the behavior. So if you 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: do a behavior and you feel successful, then that behavior 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: will become more automatic. So it's that emotion that wires 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: the habitat. 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics, hacks, 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: and rituals used by the world's most successful people to 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: get so much out of their day. I'm your host, 18 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: optimize my workday. Like yes today is bj fog. BJ 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: is an experimental psychologist who founded and directs the Behavior 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: Design Lab at Stanford University. If you've ever read anything 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: about habit change, you will know that BJ is pretty 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: much the founding father of this area and has been 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: researching it for about twenty years. He's renowned for creating 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: breakthrough methods for changing human behavior and has recently put 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: them all together in a brilliant book called Tiny Habits. 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: So I followed BJ's work. 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: For many years, and what I love about him is 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: got a knack for making complex psychology on the topic 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: of behavior change really simple and practical. In my chat 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: with BJ, we start by talking about habit change, and 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: then we get into some of BJ's productivity habits and hacks, 34 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: and we also talk about his approach to making his 35 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: teaching at Stanford and also outside of it as engaging 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: as possible. So if you've ever tried to change your behavior, 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: I think that you will get a lot out of 38 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: this chat. So on that note, over to BJ to 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: hear about how he works. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: Hello, BJ, Welcome to the show. 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: Hi, thank you for inviting me. 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: Oh, it's so good to be talking to you. I 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: followed your work for so. 44 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: Many years, and I'm just such a huge fan of 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: everything you've brought to the field of behavior change. 46 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: So firstly, thank you. 47 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: You're welcome, and thank you for paying attention definitely. 48 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: Now, I want to start with quite a general and 49 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 2: basic question because I feel like it'll provide a good 50 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: frame for a lot of the other questions that I have, and. 51 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: That is, how do you create a new habit? 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I have a method called tiny Habits, which 53 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: is the title of my new book, and it's basically this, 54 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: and it's a method that I developed in about twenty 55 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: ten and I started teaching it in twenty eleven, so 56 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: I taught forty thousand people personally. And it goes like this, 57 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: So you take any habit you want and you boil 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: it down so it's super tiny. So instead of doing 59 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: say twenty push ups, you boil it down to two. 60 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: Instead of flossing all your teeth, you do just one. 61 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: Instead of reading a Totle chapter, maybe it's just a sentence. 62 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: Then you find where that tiny version of that new 63 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: habit fits naturally in your life. What does it come 64 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: after and what you already do? Does it come after 65 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: you sit down on the subway, after you start your 66 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: coffeemaker after you feed your dog, so you find where 67 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: it fits, and then to wire in the habit. After 68 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: you do the new behavior, let's say you read the 69 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: paragraph in the book, then you reinforce it by a 70 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: technique called celebration, where you do something that causes a 71 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: positive emotion inside yourself. For me, one that works is 72 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: I do a double fist pump, So think tiger Woods, 73 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: but double and go awesome. Or maybe think that's what 74 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: Ian Thorpe used to do when he would win his 75 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: amazing races. And I'm sure there was something he did 76 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: at the end. Do that, and that's a way of 77 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: signaling to your brain that this is success, and then 78 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: your brain starts making that a habit. You're hacking your 79 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: brain through celebration. So it's basically those three things. 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And in. 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: Tiny Habits, I think you write about the celebration part 82 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: being the key to supercharging habit formation. 83 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: Have I got that right? And if so, can you 84 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: kind of talk about that? 85 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? So most people have been led to believe that 86 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: it's repetition that creates habits, and that's wrong. But what 87 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: people have heard is like, if you repeat a behavior 88 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: of twenty one days, it will become habit or sixty 89 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: six days or one hundred and two or whatever, and 90 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: it turns out that's not the case. If you look 91 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: at the studies that are cited for that, those studies 92 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: show that habit strength correlates with repetition, but they don't 93 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: show that it causes repetition. And what causes it surprisingly 94 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: at first, but once you see it, it's obvious. It's 95 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: the emotion you feel when you do the behavior. So 96 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: if you do a behavior and you feel successful, then 97 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: that behavior will become more automatic. So it's that emotion 98 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: that wires the habitat. So if you're good at causing 99 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: yourself to feel that positive emotion on demand, that gives 100 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: you superpowers in creating habits. And that's what I teach 101 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: in Tiny Habits. One of the chapters is all about that, 102 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: and there's like at least one hundred different ways to 103 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: do it, because I created an appendix or I list 104 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: one hundred ways, and you got to find what works 105 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: for you. But you're essentially hacking your emotion in order 106 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,559 Speaker 1: to hack your brain and wire in the habit. 107 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: I think that's so interesting because there are so many 108 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: kind of myths out there about how long it takes 109 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: to form a habit twenty one days sixty six days. 110 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: But essentially what you're saying is that's it's just correlational. 111 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're making that mistake, but it also means there's 112 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: two really really important implications of shifting, and I'm glad 113 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: you asked me this early. One is you don't have 114 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: to look at habit formation as suffering. Like if I 115 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: can just endure going to the gym for twenty one days, 116 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: then I'll have this habit. Now, that's not how it works. Instead, 117 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: you can create habits through a positive I mean a 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: positive experience and through positive emotions, So change doesn't have 119 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: to equal suffering. Number one. And then number two, you 120 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: can actually wire and habits really quickly if you do 121 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: a behavior. So I've got a pin here in front 122 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: of me, and let's imagine this pin is purple. It's 123 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: actually blue, but imagine it's purple. And I pick up 124 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: this pin and I start writing with it, and I'm like, 125 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, my handwriting is neater and the pin 126 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: is smoother on the paper and this pen. Wow, I 127 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: feel so successful using this purple pin. Well, guess what 128 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: this afternoon when I come back to write a note 129 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: to my mom or something like that, and I have 130 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: all these pins in front of me, I'll reach for 131 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: the purple pen because that's the one that made me 132 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: feel successful. And if that feeling is strong enough and 133 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: clear enough and associated with the behavior, if my brain 134 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: associates this feeling of great handwriting and easier to do, 135 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: then I'm not going to be reaching for the blue 136 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: pin or the black pin or the red pin anytime soon. 137 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: I'm just going to always go back to the purple pin. 138 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: So that's what I would call an instant habit, and 139 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: that happens in our lives. Instant habits where we do 140 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: things once and then we stop considering the alternatives. We 141 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: always sit in that chair or wear those shoes to events, 142 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: or write with this pin, or use this app or 143 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: what have you. 144 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 3: That's so true. 145 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: I've actually got a grain pen that I love writing with. 146 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: And if I don't have that grain pen on me 147 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: and I've got a different pin, I sort of feel 148 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: a bit, Oh, I don't have my grain pin and 149 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: it's not as exciting. 150 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: So actually that that resonates quite strongly with me. 151 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: I want to know a little bit more about how 152 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: you take all this formation, research and theory and frameworks 153 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: and a plight in your own life. Because something I 154 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: really like about your book, Tiny Habits is that you 155 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: do share a lot of yourself and how you've crafted 156 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: your own habits. So I want to delve into that 157 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: a bit more. And firstly, I want to know how 158 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: do you decide what habits you want to craft in 159 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: your own life? Because I feel like after you read 160 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: Tiny Habits, it's like, oh my goodness, where do I start? 161 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: So how do you do that in your own life? 162 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: Well, and this is a key question, and let me 163 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: give it an analogy that will help clarify it. So 164 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: in Tiny Habits, I teach you the method, and it's 165 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: not the old stuff. This is all new stuff. I 166 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: don't summarize the old stuff that doesn't work very well. 167 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: So if you're looking for a historical perspective on habits, 168 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: don't read my book. If you're looking for the future, 169 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: read my book. And I outline exactly how to create habits, 170 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: how to pick the right habits, how to wire them 171 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: into your life. And the analogy might be and drive 172 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: a car. So at first, driving a car might seem intimidating, 173 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: just like creating habits might seem intimidating, but once you 174 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: learn how, it's no big deal. You hop in the 175 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: car and go. So once you learn how to change 176 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: your behavior, it's no big deal. You say, oh, I 177 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: want to go to from point A to point B, 178 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: and you do it. So that's what my book can 179 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: teach you. What is the bigger Another question, and it's 180 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: the one you're asking, is well, now that I can 181 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: drive a car, where do I go? Or now that 182 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I can create habits, which habits should I form? And 183 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: there is a method for that I've developed that. Oh 184 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: actually I started on that one probably about two thousand 185 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: and two when I did a project for LinkedIn when 186 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: it was a super small company. I did a project 187 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: for them using this method that I now call focus mapping. 188 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: And essentially what you do is you first get clear 189 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: on what is it that I want to achieve? What's 190 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: the aspiration? And let's say, for example, it's like, oh, 191 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: I want to reduce my stress, which is the result 192 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: of doing things, And so then it's like, well, what 193 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: behaviors could I do to reduce my stress? And you 194 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: do this method I call magic wanding, where you explore 195 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different behaviors and come up say 196 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: twenty ranging from meditation to playing with my dog, to 197 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: working in the garden to surfing at Manly Beach. And 198 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: then from that big set of behaviors you pick among them. 199 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: You don't do all of them, but you pick the 200 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: best ones that I call it golden behaviors. And the 201 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: best ones have these criteria. Number One, it will be 202 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: effective at helping you achieve your outcome, so in this case, 203 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: effective in reducing your stress. Number two, it's something you 204 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: want to do. Number three, it's something that you can do. 205 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: So of all the options that you've come up with, 206 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: you pick the ones that are strongest on those three criteria, 207 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: and those are the best habits for you. Those are 208 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: the golden behaviors, and those are what you start putting 209 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: into practice. So you're not guessing. You're going through assist somatic, 210 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: getting clear, exploring options, and then selecting the best from 211 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: those options. 212 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: And how how I want to know in your own 213 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: life does this work? Like every week are you sitting 214 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: down at the start of the week going hmm, what 215 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: is it? 216 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: What is a new habit that I'm going to form 217 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: this week? 218 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: Like, what does it look like? For you the kind 219 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: of the guru on habit formation. 220 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because I've been practicing this for since twenty 221 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: ten at least, because I've taught over forty thousand people personally, 222 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, two hundred three hundred people a week since then. 223 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: It is pretty simple to do. You know. It does 224 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: really feel like just getting the car and go someplace, 225 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: no big deal. So I don't wait for a moment, 226 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: and you know, like Sunday, Sunday is the natural day 227 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: to plan. It's like in any given moments like oh 228 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: my gosh, I need to, you know, stretch this part 229 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: of my body. Creat I'll create a habit to stretch 230 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: this part of my body, and I just create it 231 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: and figure out where it fits. Now there's twists and turnstills. 232 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: It's an iterative process. What you do at the beginning 233 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: may not be exactly right. Like let's say I wanted 234 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: to stretch my shoulders and I say, okay, every morning 235 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: is the coffee's brewing, I'm going to stand right here 236 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: and stretch my shoulders. It sounds like a reasonable place. 237 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: But I may find that's not where it fits very well, 238 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: so I find a different place to put it. So 239 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: it is a design process. But I don't beat myself 240 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: up or say wow, that was terrible. You just say, oh, 241 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: I learned it doesn't fit in that part of my 242 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: day list, Let me try something else. So I just 243 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: create them on demand. There are times when I step 244 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: back and look at my life more broadly and go, wow, 245 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: is what's an area of my life that I want 246 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: to strengthen. And I'll just be honest right here, right now, 247 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: the area is close friendships. Doing a book like Tiny Habits, 248 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: which took well, it brings together twenty years of research, 249 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: but the last two years of really intensive work to 250 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: make it so simple and easy to read, and you know, 251 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: making something simple and approachable is frankly hard. And in 252 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: the process of working so hard to make it easy 253 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: for people, honestly, I wasn't able to keep some of 254 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: my close friendships nurtured. I didn't go to parties, I 255 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: didn't respond to things, I didn't send birthday cards. There's 256 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: so many things that dropped. And so now I would 257 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: sit down and I've done this, It's like, Okay, nurture 258 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: my closest friendships, that's the aspiration. What are the different 259 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: ways I could do it? So I come up with 260 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty different ways, and then I choose among 261 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: them what I think would be most impactful. And one 262 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: of the things is identify specifically with friendships. So that's 263 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: a one time behavior, like, Okay, here are the six 264 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: friends who I want to strengthen my relationship with. That's 265 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: a one time behavior. Then there's habits that also come 266 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: out of that. Well, I will text Mitch every Monday morning. 267 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: I will include my mom on this list. I'll call 268 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: my mom when I've headed for surfing most days, but 269 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: not my mom than my dad, and so on. And 270 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: so you can go from this abstract thing, the sense 271 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: of nagging sense of wow, my friendships have really weakened 272 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: to very specific concrete actions you can take, whether one 273 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: time actions or habits that you do. And that's a 274 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: process you can flow through and it ends up being 275 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: really efficient and it feels well, kind of amazing because 276 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: it's nothing's really out of reach. Yeah, follow the system. 277 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: That's amazing. 278 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: I really like that idea of applying the strategies in 279 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: your book to friendship. I feel like that is not 280 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: an obvious connection. I think when most people think about 281 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: forming new habits, it's often around kind of themselves around 282 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: healthy behaviors, maybe around work. 283 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 3: So I do like that. I do want to ask. 284 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: About your work and productivity habits, because your book definitely 285 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: covers a lot around personal habits and health habits. But 286 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: I want to know, like if someone was a fly 287 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: on the wall in your office at Stanford, for example, 288 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: what are some of the behaviors that they would see 289 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: that have become automatic for you. 290 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: I'll give you the negative things they might see, and 291 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: then the positive. 292 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: Right. 293 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: The negative is I have a lot going on. I 294 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: have many balls in the are too many, and that's 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: just you know. I mean, I really want to have 296 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: a big positive impact, and I'm an optimist, and so 297 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: I say yes or I dive into things when it 298 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: probably should either delay them or just say no. I 299 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: am good at saying no, but not good enough. So 300 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: that would probably be the first thing that says, like, man, 301 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: digit you're doing a lot, and a lot of what 302 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: you do is you don't get paid for it and 303 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: you don't have to do it. They would see that 304 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm a very casual person. They would say, I set 305 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: up my work environment to be efficient, so now we're 306 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: getting the more positive things. They would see that I 307 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: prioritize throughout my day. That I have this way of prioritizing. 308 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: It involves these little stickers. I have stickers everywhere, these 309 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: these tiny little stickers that for each task, I write 310 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: it down and they're color coded, like yellow is a 311 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: typical task, Pink means I have to do this today. 312 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: Blue means it's a five minute task. I can just 313 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: knock it off, and then there's a two to Then 314 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: for each project to have a card, it's five to 315 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: a eight card. And I put the stickers on and 316 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: I sort them in a way so not only are 317 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: they color coded, but there's a two dimensional sorting that 318 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: I do. And I explain this some in tiny habits. 319 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: I call it focus mapping. So even though I have 320 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: probably three hundred stickers with tasks on them, I don't 321 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: have to do all three hundred. There's a way I 322 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: can prioritize and know which ones to focus on and 323 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: which ones I can ignore. I do that in the morning, 324 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: I do that maybe later in the morning. I do 325 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: it after lunch, and I do it at the end 326 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: of the day. So sometimes, frankly, it hurts to prioritize 327 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: and see something that you thought you really wanted to do, 328 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: and that's what I can't do this today. 329 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: I want to do more into this system. This is 330 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: sounding fascinating. 331 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: I'm imagining this very colorful office with three hundred stickers 332 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: or post it notes or color coded How did. 333 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 3: You start this system? What led to this? 334 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: This is evolve over probably twenty years. So I grew 335 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: up in a culture. I grew up in a Mormon 336 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: family in California, and Mormons include the Romneys, the Marriotts, 337 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: and Stephen Covey. Okay, you get the victure. This culture 338 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: is about productivity. In Utah where the Mormons settled, the 339 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: on the crest is like a bee hive. It's like 340 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: be busy, you know. And so think Steve cub Et cetera. 341 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: In fact, I used to be a ghostwriter for his 342 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: newsletter when I was holling, and so there is a 343 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: lot in that culture about being productive and contributing and 344 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: serving others and so on. And so since I was 345 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 1: a kid, I mean, this is just how you're raised. 346 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: But then I started developing my own system of capturing 347 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: the tasks and prioritizing them and showing the contingencies and whatnot. 348 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: It's evolved and now that it has settled to. I 349 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: have these five y eight cards. They're basically index cards 350 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: with tabs with they're thick, and then for each project, 351 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: each project gets a card, and then I use these 352 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: stickers that are about one inch by one and a 353 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: half inch little stickers that you can write on with 354 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: the right kind of pen's and so it's not like 355 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: it's all over the walls. There was a time when 356 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: it was all over the walls and it drove me crazy, 357 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: and then I had to develop these curtains that I 358 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: put over this so I didn't have to see all 359 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: three hundred Now, you know, I keep iterating, but now 360 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: the method and I really do like it. Five by 361 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: eight it's about the right size for a project. I 362 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: can fit about twelve stickers on each card, and so 363 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: then there's just stacks of cards and I get out 364 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: the relevant, the high priority cards for that day, and 365 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: I order those cards, and then within the top priority cards, 366 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: then I reorder the tasks. So there's this prioritized, prioritized, 367 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: prioritize thing that I do. So I feel confident, pretty 368 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: confident that I'm spending my time on the most important things, 369 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: and I'm not too distressed by all of the stickers 370 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: on all the cards I'm not seeing, And how does. 371 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: Your prioritization process work, you know, because obviously, I mean 372 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: you talked about Stephen Covey, who talks about you know, 373 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: important versus urgent, and it's easy to get stuck in, 374 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: you know, lured in by the urgent tasks, like what's 375 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: your process for prioritizing. 376 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: And make sure you are focusing on what matters on that. 377 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: It actually goes in two phases, so it's a little 378 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: bit different. One is to just sit down and go 379 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: what are my top three priorities today? Without looking at anything, 380 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: just what comes to mind? What are my top three priorities? 381 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: Write those down, put those on pink stickers. And then 382 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: the more system so that's more intuitive. Then I go 383 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: to the more systematic and I go through the cards, 384 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: flip the cards of my Yeah, this thing on my 385 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: Stanford Lab, this research piece I need to do, and 386 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: so I'll pull out the cards that are I think 387 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: going to be important for that day it's at the 388 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: other side, and then card by card I'll go through 389 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't have to do all ten 390 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: things on my Stanford Lab research card. There's probably those two, 391 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: and I those end up in the upper right hand 392 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: corner because I'm prioritizing by impact and how easy they 393 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: are to do. And then I'll order those because sometimes 394 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: things need to be done sooner, Like if somebody's waiting 395 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: on me, like one of my students is waiting on 396 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: me in order to create a piece of the research, 397 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: there's stalled until I help them. So that usually goes 398 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: up the list, especially if it's super simple. So it's 399 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: so the first phase is intuitive, what are the top three? 400 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: The second phase is more systematic, and then what bubbles up? 401 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Then I just start cranking it out. Now, there's also 402 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: a way I go through my email that influences it, 403 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: and it I'll summarize there anything that we all get 404 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: too much email, but anything that bubbles up, I translate 405 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: it to a yellow sticker and that becomes my to do. 406 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: So you will make that email a physical yellow sticker. Essentially, 407 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: you'll write that yeah yeah. 408 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: And people that work closely with me know that if 409 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't end upon a sticker, it's not gonna happen. 410 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 3: That's awesome. And then do you then delete that email 411 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: or file it? Like what's happening? This is fascinating. I 412 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 3: love getting into the waves. 413 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just file it. I just archive it. At 414 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: that point, I used to file them very carefully, and 415 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: I just realized I never go back to, you know, 416 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: systematically look at it. So I just I do just 417 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: archive it. 418 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: Now. 419 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: If it's an email that I can solve, you know, 420 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: just like getting things done. If it's something I can 421 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: do just really fast, I just do it and I 422 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: don't make the sticker. But if it takes any more 423 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: than or two minutes or so, then I do make 424 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: the sticker and either just stack it up and then 425 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: later prioritize it, or if it's something that happens that day, 426 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: I'll just go to the appropriate card and put it 427 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: there so it stands out. 428 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 2: I want to come back to this idea of creating 429 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: a work environment that is one that you know that 430 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 2: drives productivity and efficiency, and I guess the card system 431 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: is part of that. 432 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 3: And certainly when you talk about. 433 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: In tiny habits around investing time in redesigning your environment 434 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 2: when you're trying to create a new habits. So I 435 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: want to know, like in some more detail, around the 436 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: office that you work in, what are some other things 437 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 2: that you've done to redesign your work environment. 438 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm a little afraid to tell you the truth 439 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: because it's I want to share things that people people 440 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: can do, actually do, like practical, but I will share 441 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter, and yeah, people can maybe 442 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: do a lot of this. So right now I'm in 443 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: our home in South Maui, and so I split my 444 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: time between Maui and California. So here in Maui, I'm 445 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: sitting at my work desk. It's a stand up desk, 446 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: but because I'm using this microphone, I have to sit 447 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: down because it doesn't go that tall. And so I 448 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: have a desk that is a stand up desk by Ergotron, 449 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: where I just flip a lever to put it up 450 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: and down. That's way better than electric because I can 451 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: just move it up and down in a second or two. 452 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: I have a screen arm that's bolted to the desk. 453 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: Right now, the screen has moved out of the way 454 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: so it's not bugging me in it's a huge screen. 455 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: But now I'm seeing out the window and I'm seeing 456 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: I have tons of natural light pouring in. I can 457 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: see the ocean. Probably during our chat, i'll see a 458 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: whale out there. I'm seeing palm tree, so physical light's 459 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: coming in right at me. It's coming in from the 460 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: left side of the room, right side of the room, 461 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: so it feels like I'm in nature. I would normally 462 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: have the windows open here, but because we're in the podcast, 463 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm not, so as much as I can. It's light 464 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: and nature is my work environment. On my desk, I 465 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: have this mat. It's a grounding mat, an earthing mat. 466 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: This one's by Earth and Moon, and it's really designed 467 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: not to be put on a desk, but it fits 468 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: perfectly on my desk, and so this then grounds me 469 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: to the Earth. So it then runs to the electrical outlet, 470 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: which then is a ground so as all day long, 471 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: when my hands or arms are on the mat, I'm 472 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: essentially grounding. And I know some people may not believe 473 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: in that or whatever, but I do. I think it's 474 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: really important to be connected to the earth, and so 475 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: I feel like that helps make me productive. On my desk, 476 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: I have coffee, water, and the vitamins I haven't yet 477 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: taken some I have some I haven't and then I 478 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: have the cards. I have a table next where I 479 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: have some cards. I have the Sturgeent Projects right here. 480 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: And then I have a filing system with folders that 481 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: is behind a cabinet, so it doesn't bug me. So 482 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: in other words, height the things they don't need to 483 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: work on now, surround myself with light and nature and 484 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: make it really easy to be comfortable, I guess, And 485 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: I don't know that's Is that the kind of detail 486 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: you want? 487 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm loving that details. That's fantastic. 488 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: And then because you've essentially got two officers that are 489 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: on opposite sides of the country, like are are there 490 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: I guess hacks or things that you've done to make 491 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: it easy to go between the offices, like for example, 492 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: I interviewed Dan Heath, who I'm sure you're aware of 493 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: his work, just a few days ago for the podcast 494 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: and talking about his new book Upstream and I'm not 495 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: sure if you've got your hands on a copy yet, 496 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: but all about how can we move more upstream when 497 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: we're solving problems as opposed to reacting, And he talked 498 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: about this example where he's got a home office and 499 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: then he'll also work and write from cafes a lot. 500 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: And he talked about this just this frustration where he 501 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: would only have the one power cord for his laptop, 502 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: and so there'd be all this kafaffle every time he 503 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: had to move from the cafe to the office. And 504 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: he had a stroke of genius and bought a second 505 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: power cord, which then eliminated the frustration. So essentially going 506 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: upstream to solve what was a bit of a frustrating problem. 507 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: So I'm wondering, like, there are things that you do 508 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: because I'm the same. I've got a home office, and 509 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: I feel like I've got three offices. I've got a 510 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: home office, I've got a real office with my coworkers, 511 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: and then I work from cafes a lot. So are 512 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: there things that you've developed to make that switching easier? 513 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it is a process. And I think 514 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: it's a good question because I feel like I've settled 515 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: it for myself now. First of all, anything that is 516 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: digital that all lives in the cloud. There's no reason 517 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: I need any one device with me. There's no device 518 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: that's indispensable. I could lose any device and just go 519 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: to a different one and be fine. And surprisingly along 520 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: the way, surprisingly I got off the Mac email client. 521 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: So I'm a big mac Apple person, and I went 522 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: to Outlook. 523 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, this is. 524 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: A year ago, I know, right, Like who I would 525 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: have never guessed. I was going to Outlook, but the 526 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: Mac email client was so inefficient and frustrating me like 527 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: crazy that I started looking at all these third party 528 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: things and I thought, well, okay, maybe I'll try Outlook, 529 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: and it's like just right for me, and it works 530 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: so well across devices, so weirdly enough, which also shifted 531 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: my calendaring to Outlook, which I'm super happy to be 532 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: off some of Google's products, so that just even their watch, 533 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: their Apple Watch version of Outlook is for calendar, email, 534 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: and notes. It's like, who knew? 535 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: Wow? 536 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: So I'm not depending on any device. I can use 537 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: my phone, my iPad, not really, the watch is limited, 538 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: but still and when I travel, I don't travel with 539 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: a laptop anymore. I figured out in the last three 540 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: months and my most my most recent trip to Sydney 541 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: helped me affirm this. I was like, Okay, I'm going 542 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: to go and not bring the laptop and see what happens. 543 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: I can get by with an iPad. I can do 544 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: everything I need with an iPad and that's been very liberating. 545 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: I had no idea I can make that work, but 546 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 1: now I can, and so I don't even travel with laptop. 547 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: It's iPad and my phone. And then in each of 548 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: the offices I have, I have a bigger, more powerful computer, 549 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: but there's no transferring of anything. It's just like you 550 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: open it up and it's all there in the cloud, 551 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: or it downloads to your client from the cloud. So 552 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: everything's so that's worked for me really well. Another gloss 553 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: on this or high level is my dad coached me 554 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: very early on this principle, and he's an I surgeon, 555 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: and equipment and gear and quality really matters, of course 556 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: when you're doing eye surgery, and even young, even as 557 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: a college student, he said, look by the very best equipment. 558 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: Invest in the best equipment for what you do. Do 559 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: not skim. And so even as a student, I was 560 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: buying the best computer for my purposes with the memory 561 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: I needed. And he's right, you know, the saving of 562 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: the two hundred and five hundred one thousand bucks that 563 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: does not pay off. Get the best gear and then 564 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: use it and it pays off for and over. So 565 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of two answers. 566 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, long one one short one. No, that's interesting. I 567 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: want to delve into a couple of those things. So 568 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: gear aside from the obvious gear of you know, iPad, 569 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: computer and so forth, what's what's some other gear that 570 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: has helped you, I guess, be more productive and run 571 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: your run your life more effectively. 572 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: Oh well, one one category is kind of fitness and 573 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: wellness gear. So right here by me, I have a 574 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: dumbbell sitting by my desk at my home office I 575 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: have in California. I have other kinds of stretching and 576 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: workout gear right there. So I'm not doing it now 577 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: because I need to be close to this good microphone. 578 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: But you know, during the day, I can stretch, I 579 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: can lift weights, I can do other things. So certainly 580 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: take care of your body and have that gear. When 581 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: I travel, I bring It's not the TRX branded suspension training. 582 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: I've hacked my own version that's lighter and a lot cheaper, 583 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: So I travel with you know, kind of suspension training 584 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: so I can get some some resistance training in wherever 585 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: I am. In terms of food, I would consider that 586 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: part of the overall package. You know, even when you travel, 587 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: especially when you travel, bring food that's on your game plan. 588 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: In terms of productivity, like actual tools I use timers 589 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot. I have this little timer. Yeah, you could 590 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: use your watch, but there's another timer that goes by 591 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: various brands, but it's just basically like a kitchen timer, 592 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: a tiny one where I can set the timer for 593 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: things that I use. Timer a lot and tiny habits. 594 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: One of my methods is after I feel like I'm procrastinating, 595 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: I will set the timer and dive in. So I'll 596 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: set a timer for like seven minutes and dive in. 597 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: I always have these little stickers with me. Of course, 598 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: I have, you know, the index cards with me, and 599 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: the pen depends that I like. And then after that, 600 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: you know kind of obvious things like noise blocking bose 601 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: Head said when I need them, and I do wear 602 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: the glasses that block blue light when I travel and 603 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: at home. I don't think there's anything else that's surprising 604 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: in terms of gear but that I think would be it. 605 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: And then I'm using my iPad more and more. I'm 606 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: finding Here's what I'm surprised. Email and the iPad is 607 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: not as debilitating. 608 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 3: I don't know the words. 609 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: It's more fun. I'd hate to say fun. And you 610 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: do you think that is more fun to use email 611 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: on the iPad than on a laptop or does I 612 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: have no idea some more fun thanks for now. 613 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: I want to know on the iPad because I'm kind 614 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: I'm quite struck that you're traveling without a laptop, and 615 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 2: for me is I would typically travel once or twice 616 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: a fortnite into state that that kind of blows my mind. 617 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: But I'm also very jealous about the idea of just 618 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: traveling with the iPad. So what, like, aside from the 619 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: obvious apps, like whether you're using iWork or you know, 620 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: Microsoft Office for you know, creating presentations or documents and 621 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: so forth, what other apps are you're using on the 622 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 2: iPad that you're finding allow the iPad to be this 623 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: great tool for traveling and working. 624 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Outlook, but I'm sure the email applely my 625 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: client would work as well. But Outlook plus Outlook Calendar 626 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: is great. I do use, but I did this a 627 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: few years ago. One Note surprisingly, you know, I think 628 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: that's what opened me to look at other Microsoft products. 629 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: One Note is really great and it of course goes 630 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: across the vice. With my lab and all my main projects, 631 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: we use Slack, so I know Slack is the go 632 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: to from my lab work and other projects like working 633 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: with tiny habits people. I use space camp and what 634 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: else for productivity. Oh, for presentations, I try to use keynote. 635 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: Some people insist on getting PowerPoint but keynote and storing 636 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: it to the cloud, which I was so resistant to do. 637 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: I don't know why. And then I had well to 638 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: make the iPad work. I had to do that, and 639 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: then I discovered this is kind of awesome doing keynote 640 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: and having it be in the cloud. It worked way 641 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: better than I expected. So that's kind of the lineup 642 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: for me. 643 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, cool, cool, I want it. 644 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: I want to switch gears now and move on to 645 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: the topic of education, because you spend a lot of 646 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: your time teaching, whether that be face to face teaching 647 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: with your students in California or the online course that 648 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: you do in Habit Change, and I want to tackle 649 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: face to face teaching first because I mean, one of 650 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 2: the big challenges about teaching anyone anything is actually making 651 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: that knowledge stick and be used, which is obviously your 652 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: area of expertise. It's about creating habits out of what 653 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: you teach. So I'm curious as to how have you 654 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: applied your strategies in the face to face teaching environment. 655 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 3: So what you teach actually sticks well so much. 656 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: Today, for example, I taught five hundred people in US 657 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: free online course about my book. So people have enrolled, 658 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: you know, if they bought my book by certain data. 659 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: I invited them to go chapter by chapter with me 660 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: and guess what and figure out what topics I wanted 661 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: to cover. I wrote them on stickers. I prioritized the stickers. 662 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: I created the curriculum, and that so designing the teaching 663 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: experience carefully, like what are we going to cover and 664 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: what order? What are the examples? And like I love 665 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: having fun. I love love love having fun. So make 666 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: it like a game show or bring in stupid process 667 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: Like today I played my recorder. It's an instrument most 668 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: people hate, but I play it and use it as 669 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: an example just to maybe shock people or torture them, 670 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: I don't know, just because they don't expect it. They 671 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: don't expect me to pull out stuffed animals and use 672 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: them as examples. And then I try to make it. 673 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,959 Speaker 3: I really. 674 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: You try to craft the flow of the experience and 675 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: the learning and the ideas in a way that makes sense. 676 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: But also what you're doing I think as a teacher 677 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: is you are empathizing with the learner, and you're feeling 678 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: what it feels like to have that happen moment by moment. 679 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: So I think empathy for that the audience member or 680 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: the student or the listener is the best, the most 681 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: important skill you have in designing content, because you're feeling 682 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: and even writing the book tiny habits, it's okay, this, 683 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: then this, Oh this is going too much, Let's cut that. 684 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: Here's this example. Oh, they're gonna have a question about this, 685 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: Let's answer this. So it's putting yourself in their position 686 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: and delivering to them what they need and what will 687 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: excite them. And so it's so you're feeling, I don't 688 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: know how so I'm a scientist, and it's going to 689 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: sound all woo woo. It's it's it's empathizing with their 690 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: experience and imagining like you're them as you're creating it, 691 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: and then as you're going along, and the advantage of 692 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: face to face and I love zoom too, I use 693 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: zoom all the time. Add that to the list is 694 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: as you're teaching it, you're sensing from the people listening 695 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: how you're doing. Now in this case me talking to you. 696 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: It's hard because I can't read how you're responding, and 697 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: I certainly can't read how the listeners are responding to 698 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 1: this later, and that makes it harder to be effective 699 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: because as I teach, I don't. I almost I never 700 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: teach from slides, and when I keynote sometimes they do. 701 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: But even when you have slides and you have a 702 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: fixed structure, you adjust according to the audience feedback. You adjust, 703 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: you adjust, you adjust. It's an interaction with the audience, 704 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: and especially when I'm teaching. Yeah, I have a plan, 705 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: but if I'm sensing they want more depth there, I 706 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: see puzzit looks there, or I need to go faster, 707 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: you adjust, you adjust, you It's like a it's like 708 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: an improv. You're doing back and forth with the audience. 709 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: But you need I at least I flatter myself to 710 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: think that I can put myself in their position and 711 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: feel like, what what is this going to feel like 712 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: on the other side. But then as you do it, 713 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: you also adjust. 714 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: And then when you're thinking about let's say homework assignments 715 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: or you know, out of class assignments. Again, how do 716 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: you think about designing that you know what that it 717 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: actually gets done? Because I guess you know in the classroom, obviously, 718 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: you know, people can tune out and get on Facebook, 719 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: but I would imagine you're very engaging teacher, so they're 720 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 2: not going to do that. 721 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 3: But it is hard to get people. 722 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 2: To, you know, do what you want them to when 723 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 2: you're not standing there in front of them. So like, 724 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: what are some tricks or hacks that you're using to 725 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: get them doing that? 726 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: A few ways? Well, first of all, in the classroom, 727 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: there's no technology allowed. No laptops out, sorry, no phone. Really, 728 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: we have to take notes, take it with a pen 729 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: and a paper, okay, yeah, yeah, And if you don't 730 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: like it, drop my class. And I say that in 731 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: a nice way, but I mean it actually and so 732 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: and we all sit around one big table, so it's 733 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: not like we're in bros. We're in a everyone can 734 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: see everybody else. And so I limit my class size. 735 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: So people apply to my class, and then I select 736 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: who I think would benefit the most. So first while 737 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: I select who I want next, the homework never never 738 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: is busy work. It's all going to be valuable and 739 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: I have one hundred percent expectation they're going to do 740 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: it one hundred percent. So my situation is not like 741 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: a lot of teachers where you're bagging people to do 742 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: homework and whatever. So Stanford students they'll they'll do it 743 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: if they feel it's valuable, they'll do it. 744 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 2: Any other things that you're applying that I guess might 745 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: surprise people, or that any kind of educators listening might 746 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: go ooh, I'm I'm going to steal that with pride. 747 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 3: That is a great way to get better outcomes in education. 748 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,439 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I there's probably a lot. I mean, 749 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: I'm given the background I grew up in. Of course, 750 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: you start teaching early and you know Sunday school all that, 751 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: So I always try to get better at how I teach, 752 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: both at Stanford and also industry. I mean the boot 753 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: camp I do. I do a two day boot camp 754 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: where I train people in behavior to sign And these 755 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: are people from big companies, healthcare systems, big financial organismsations, 756 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: all the way down to startups, and I'm teaching them 757 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: how do you apply behavior designed to create these amazing 758 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: products and services. And for years, probably five years ago, 759 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: my partner and I sat down and said, Okay, what 760 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 1: we're doing with this is we're going to create the 761 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: best professional training program in the world. And we're going 762 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: to assess it at every boot camp we do, and 763 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: we're going to ask them, is this the best anonymous question? 764 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: Is this the best training you've ever had in your life? 765 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: And professional training? Yes? Or now? Ninety five percent plus 766 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: of the people say yes, and it's anonymous, so they 767 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: don't have to say yes. So it's not just Stanford, 768 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: it's outside. How do you really create the most impactful training? 769 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: And part of it is being flexible and always learning 770 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: and always adjusting. And part of it is, I want 771 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: to say, it's being vulnerable. It's it's trusting the students 772 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: or you know, giving people hard projects, letting them work 773 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: on it, letting them get from to come back, explore 774 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: that with them, or have them watch you. As Stanford 775 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: really pushes on this, they want the students to watch 776 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: you struggle with the problem in real time. So do 777 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: something you're not sure, tackle a problem that you're not 778 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: sure you're going to be able to solve, and have 779 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: the students watch you or join you. And that's a 780 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: bit of a leap, because at least it was for me, 781 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: because it's like, oh my gosh, what if I look 782 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: bad to my students? Well, what I found was. They 783 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: love it and they respect you for taking on something 784 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, I don't know where this will go, 785 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: but here's I'm going to dive in, and you just 786 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: watch me do it, or do it with me. The 787 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: other thing that I do this is more at stamp 788 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: and in the boot camps that I do. I customize 789 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: what I'm teaching to the group's coming. And actually it's 790 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: not hour by hour, but even more frequently I'm changing 791 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: the flow of what I'm doing so I have a 792 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: two day experience I've already created, but depending on their questions, 793 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm adjusting, adjusting, adjusting, so it never goes exactly as 794 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: I plan, because hopefully it goes better because I'm adapting 795 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: very quickly. Now at Stanford, I will take risks even 796 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: the whole class. First day of class is like, welcome 797 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: to class. Nobody's ever done this before. Like coming up 798 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: in early first week of April. I'll be in mind. 799 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: Every year I teach a new class, it always has 800 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: to do with behavior, change it some way, But first class, 801 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: I'll say hi, welcome. As you know, this class is 802 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: all about designing a curriculum for climate change professionals. In 803 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: ten weeks from now, we will have a curriculum posted 804 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: online that anybody in the world, any professional and climate 805 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: change can access so they can understand how to change behavior. 806 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: Nobody's ever done this before. I've never done this before. 807 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: I've run some pilots. We could totally fail, but we're 808 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: going to try, and so welcome to the journey. Welcome. 809 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: We're going to work figure this out together. And they 810 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: love it. I mean, it's true the class could totally fail, 811 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: but the fact that we're blazing new trails and it's 812 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: a big thing. So every year I pick something big 813 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,959 Speaker 1: and important and we're going to dive in and figure 814 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: it out. We got ten weeks that I love it, 815 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: and the students can see how much I love it, 816 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: and so I think that energizes them as well. 817 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 3: I love that example. 818 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: I love that idea of being vulnerable, and I didn't 819 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 2: realize that was a thing that Stanford really emphasized with educators. 820 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,399 Speaker 3: That is very cool. I'm now of thinking in my head, 821 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 3: how can I apply that to my own work. 822 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: Well, it's I think even in business settings and even 823 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: in settings with friends, what it boils down to is 824 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: be authentic, be the real. You don't pretend like oh 825 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: I have everything figured out or whatever. Just you know, 826 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: be totally authentic what you really know for sure, Like 827 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: all the research I've done on habits and tiny habits, 828 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: I know that for sure. You know, bam, I know this. 829 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: But then I'll get questions I don't know, like oh, 830 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: what's the best financial habit? It's like, well, I haven't 831 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: studied that, but here's how I would think about it. 832 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: So what it frees? So the takeaway is just be you, authentic, 833 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 1: worts and all. But what it does, what I learned 834 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: and did for me, is it reduced stress. I don't 835 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: have to be anybody magical in the classroom or in 836 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: my boot camp. I just be me. Just be me, 837 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: and that's easy to be me, and that's what works apparently, 838 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: And so that's the takeaway, just be you, be authentic. 839 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 3: That's fantastic. That is such a lovely note to end on. 840 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 2: And I do have one final question, which is if 841 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,720 Speaker 2: people want to participate in your online course, your boot camps, 842 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 2: get tiny habits find out more about you, what should 843 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 2: they do next? 844 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: Two online resources bjfog dot com is the broad umbrella 845 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: about my work. Tinyhabits dot com is specif about Tiny Habits, 846 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: and yeah, I would encourage people to connect with my 847 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: book in some way, whether it's at your library or 848 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: buy it or what have you, because I put a 849 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: whole bunch of new stuff that I've not shared in 850 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 1: other ways in the book, so that's really important. There 851 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: is a way to schedule a phone call with me 852 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: at bjfog dot com. I've done like four thousand of these. 853 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: It's free, there's no hidden motive, so if you need 854 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: it's not for personal coaching, but if you're working on 855 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: a product or service, or if you're an academic or 856 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: a student, then you want my input. There's ways to 857 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 1: find me and book time with me, and I do 858 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,959 Speaker 1: that every Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And there's a whole bunch 859 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: of other little videos and stuff, but those are the 860 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:40,879 Speaker 1: main things. 861 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 2: That's awesome, and look, I would strongly recommend people go 862 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 2: out and get Tiny Habits. I've read a lot of 863 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 2: books on habit change, and I just I love what 864 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 2: you've written. I must say before reading it, I'm like, well, 865 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 2: what new things can this teach me? I'm a psychologist, 866 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 2: I've read so much about this, but I must say 867 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 2: it really opened up my eyes to quite a lot 868 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 2: of new ways of thinking about habit changed. So I 869 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 2: just thought it was absolutely brilliant and I need to 870 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 2: let you go, Bejay. This time has flown. It's just 871 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 2: been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. So thank you 872 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 2: so much. 873 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: Thank you. 874 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 3: That is it for today's show. 875 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed it, why not share this episode with 876 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 2: someone else that you. 877 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 3: Think would get a lot out of it. 878 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 2: And if you're feeling like you've got to spare ten 879 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 2: seconds in the day, why not mosey on over to 880 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts from and 881 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 2: leave a review. You might want to leave a star 882 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,240 Speaker 2: rating or perhaps write some words. I personally love getting 883 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 2: feedback on the show, So a big thank you if 884 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 2: you have done that or planned to do that today. 885 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,959 Speaker 2: So that's it for today and I'll see you next time.