WEBVTT - Do Australian music festivals have a future? 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:05.200 Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OAHs. 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:06.920 Oh now it makes sense. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.360 Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.799 the tenth of April. I'm Sam, I'm Billy. Yesterday the 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:27.000 National Arts Council, called Creative Australia, presented its landmark report 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.040 into the state of Australia's music festivals and unfortunately it's 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.919 not good news. Over a third of Australian music festivals 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.839 lost money last year, losing almost eight hundred thousand dollars 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.720 on average. The cost of putting on a festival has 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.640 rapidly increased, it's harder for festivals to get insurance, and 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.640 people are buying tickets closer to the time of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.720 festival now. Creative Australia said impacts from the pandemic have 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:57.440 seen many popular festivals canceled or downscaled, resulting in multimillion 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:01.880 dollar losses for organizers and promoters. In today's podcast, we're 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.000 going to talk to Mitch Wilson. They're the managing director 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.640 of the Australian Festivals Association and was at the launch 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.679 of the report yesterday. Before we get to that chat, Billy, 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:13.399 what is making headlines this morning? 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.840 The Northern Territory government has extended a curfew for young 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.000 people in Alice Springs by an additional six days. It 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.759 comes after an initial two week curfew for under eighteen 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.520 year olds in the region was announced last month and 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.920 mid concerns about growing violence and unrest. It will now 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.360 continue until six am Tuesday, sixteenth of April, meaning the 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.800 curfew will cover the entire school holiday period. And we 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:40.600 have done a podcast on that, so if you want 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.520 more information about that, we will link it in the 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:43.960 show notes. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.160 A new report has found job seeker payments are not 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.640 high enough to cover living expenses. Data from Anglicare Australia 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.720 shows low income households are worst affected by inflation. It 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.360 said more than seventy percent of spending by the bottom 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.960 fifth of income earners in twenty five twenty three was 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:06.760 on essential items. Anglicare said Senselink payments were far too low. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.840 Last month was the world's hottest March on record. According 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.080 to the European Union's Climate Change Service. It marks the 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:18.440 tenth consecutive month of record breaking temperatures. March was one 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.280 point sixty eight degrees warmer than estimated pre industrial temperatures. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.160 The global average temperature for the twelve months leading up 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.400 to March was also at its highest on record. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.120 And today's good news, Beyonce has become the first black 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.480 woman to take the number one spot in the country 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.600 charts for her album Cowboy Krter. It's also her eighth 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.120 album to top the overall Billboard two hundred album charts. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.280 The singer has also sold the most vinyls of her 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.880 career so far, with sixty two thousand Cowboy Carter vinyl 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.200 copies sold in the first week of the album's release. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.480 Hey there, I'm just popping in here. My name is 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.639 Sira and I'm the sales manager at TDA. I help 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.680 organize the sponsorships you hear on the podcast every day 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.680 and that helps fund the journalism you hear. If you 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:11.840 want to support us, the best way to do that 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.600 is by clicking follow on Apple or Spotify. It really 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.840 helps new audiences find us. Thank you for your support, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.760 and now back to the deep dive. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.600 Sam. Before we get into this chat, I think it 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.560 would be helpful for the listeners to know that you 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:31.560 absolutely love music festivals. You go to one probably once 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:32.040 a month. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.600 Why is that, Billy? I absolutely love them and they've 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.080 been some of the most special times for me over 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.840 the years. You know, I've discovered new artists, I've discovered 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.120 new parts of Australia. It's the best and I know 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.560 a lot of young people feel the same way. But 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.440 there's a lot of really serious issues facing the music 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.320 festival industry and that's why this chat with Mitch was 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.240 so important to have on the podcast. The new report 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.480 came out yesterday, I broke it down with Mitch. Here's 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.760 that chat, Mitch. Thanks for joining us on the Daily OS. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.200 The report's just come out. Tell me where you are, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.840 how you're feeling, and what your days look like today. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:11.800 I am in Sydney. It's extremely wet and indicative of 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:13.440 sort of I think how a number of people in 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.680 the music industry have been feeling a bit disheveled, a 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.279 bit all over the place. But yeah, I think the 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.600 report is extremely helpful for us to be able to 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:30.279 quantify map this music festival sector in the country because 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.719 we haven't had a national piece of research before. We've 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.000 been advocating for this and managed to get it in 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.960 the National Cultural Policy, which we were super excited to see, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.039 and I think it's getting released at the most optimal time. 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.039 So we see it as the basis for even more 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.400 research into music festivals across the country, and super excited 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.600 to have it out there and to hear everyone's reactions 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.280 and for you to all see it. 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:57.280 I want to start with a bit of a philosophical 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.839 question for you. Why are music festivals so important? 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:05.200 Oh? I think music festivals are hugely important. Everyone loves 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.200 hanging out with their mates, going away together, you know, 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.960 get out of town, switch off, particularly these days, and 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:15.960 enjoy some music. I think, you know, out of all 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.520 the art forms that people engage with, music as the highest, 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.760 so it's unsurprising that festivals are such a draw card 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:25.840 for people in the past. 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:27.680 We're going to get to this a bit later in 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.320 the discussion, but I kind of feel like it's the 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.520 right place for this question. Is it important enough to 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.920 a society that governments should be supporting them financially? 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.400 I think government definitely needs to be at the table 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.839 at the moment. We've seen such huge impacts into music 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.839 festivals these past few years. It's not just the pandemic 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.880 and lockdowns. It was prior to that. We saw the 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.640 Black Summer bushfires cancel a number of events. We've seen 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.960 le Nina and wet weather impact events. Since then, we 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.560 just haven't had the opportunity to really fully recover from 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:05.240 those ongoing impacts. And the economic impact and the benefits 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.200 to communities, particularly in regional areas across the country are huge. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:14.960 And for similar industries that have those impacts, whether it's 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:19.719 you know, mining, agriculture, that have as great a sort 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.280 of economic impacts in some of these regional communities. For 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.080 some reason, we're just not seen on the same you 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:32.520 know pedestal and previously festivals and cross contemporary music haven't 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.240 really gone to government for support. It's only in these 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.360 past few years that we've needed that support. And why 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.000 we're asking for actually just time limited, short term funding 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:48.080 to weather the immediate challenges which have been largely out 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.400 of our control since the pandemic and you know, supply 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:52.680 chain issues. 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:57.120 And those details were abundantly clear in yesterday's release of 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.800 a report from Creative Australia. It's said that of the 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.919 five hundred and thirty five music festivals in Australia in 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.880 twenty two to twenty three, thirty five percent of them 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:12.560 lost money. Is something happening on that supply side that's 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.720 outweighing because people are still going to music festivals, right, 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.160 so are they just becoming more expensive to produce? 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:24.080 Some of our festivals have had their highest attendance numbers 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.280 on record, but they're making less and less money. And 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.679 we've seen examples of some of our members events selling 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.320 out the last six months and they didn't make any 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.560 money because they're just covering costs. We've seen costs up 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.000 thirty to forty percent on every single line item. When 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.280 it comes to insurance, it's even greater than that. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.040 I just want to jump in here because that's a 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.080 little bit of kind of confusing industry speak, So let's 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.200 go through that together. Basically, what Minch is talking about 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.480 there is how much it costs music festivals to take 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.320 out an insurance policy which they can then activate in 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.280 case something goes wrong. And as we've seen an increase 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.320 in the number of festivals affected by wild weather or 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.160 by some economic variable factors, the cost of getting that 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.960 insurance has gone up, and it's gone up in some 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.920 cases to such a high extent that it actually is 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.160 becoming harder for music festivals to pay for the policy 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.800 before they have the revenue from ticket sales. 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.560 And ticket prices just can't be raised at the same 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.520 rate to meet those costs, So the margins are super tight, 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.040 and you're seeing those examples of nearly having to sell 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:29.119 out just to break either. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.640 So why do you think then we're getting to a 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.520 point where people don't want to spend more and more 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.559 money on the experience because I think there's an understanding 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.720 that the supply costs are going up. Are we hitting 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.080 that ceiling of young people are just not going to 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.480 fork out another one hundred dollars on top of the 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:48.079 ticket price. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.040 Well, like, we haven't seen ticket prices go up as 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.320 much as the costs have gone up. I just want 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.840 to make that clear up front. But yeah, I think 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.480 cost of living pressures are hitting everyone and renting increases, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.560 particularly amongst young people. I think the data out of 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.280 the report that we find most concerning is that the 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.640 eighteen to twenty four year old age group is not 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.439 the largest demographic when it comes to ticket purchases for 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.040 music vestvals anymore. They consistently have been, and we're now 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.640 seeing them drop down below the twenty five to twenty 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.040 nine year old age group, and that has a huge 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.040 flow on effect to that ongoing platline of an audience 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.439 and also locking in music lovers from you know, when 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.480 they're sort of finishing school and able to go to 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.840 live music, to be live music and festival attendees for 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:37.720 decades after that. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.160 Is there an argument to be made though, that just 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.600 the habits and trends amongst that eighteen to twenty four 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.000 year old cohort have changed and moved away from festivals 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.559 and towards the Taylor Swifts, the fread Again's the kind 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:50.239 of megators. 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.760 Well, I think from an artist's perspective, we're seeing a 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:58.920 lot of those big name headline artists see that a 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.920 stadium show or arena show just for themselves is more 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.960 of a financial incentive and that's having a flow on 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.680 effect of festival lineups. And I think, yeah, we don't 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.520 fully understand the changes in what young people are looking 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.320 for from their life music experiences at the moment. I 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:22.000 think there's a lot of impacts from COVID times lockdown. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.319 A lot of you know, eighteen to twenty four year 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.520 olds we're talking about finishing high school, starting UNI in 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.400 lockdown on Zoom, not going to these sort of formative 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.880 cultural experiences, going away with your mates for a weekend, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.600 and I think the costs are also having an impact 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.319 where anecdotally hearing that as much as Taylor's with costs, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.440 it's actually, you know, less of a cost than some 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.920 of the multi day music festivals, but you're getting one 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.040 artist or two with the support rather than in some 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.199 cases hundreds. 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.720 So you're representing festivals when you go and have these 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.240 discussions with government, and that's both on the state and 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:06.840 a federal level. How's government receiving the requests of your industry. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.760 Well, we had a big meeting with the federal government yesterday, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.600 so Creative Australia, the Arts Agency convened the meeting of 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.680 festival promoters as well as US as the Peak Body. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.600 So I think the news of the cancelations and with 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.280 this research coming out and the findings within that, there 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.240 has been an understanding of the pressures. I think given 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.000 the range of things we've discussed today, they're also trying 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.439 to grapple with what the challenges are and what their 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.480 role might be. I think what was quite forcefully put 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.480 by a number of festival organizers yesterday was that the 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:48.319 federal government has a role to play in the insurance industry. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.079 The Federal Government needs to be at the table when 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:56.120 we're having discussions around changes to the insurance offerings to festivals, 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:01.240 because there's essentially bordering on market collabse premiums are through 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.200 the roof and it really keeps having a flow on 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.800 impact to an organizer deciding whether or not, you know, 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.160 if they don't get that huge ticket buying when they 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.520 go on sale, whether they hold off and sort of 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.320 take the risk of seeing whether they'll sell those tickets 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.360 before the event, or do they sort of pull the 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.040 pin early because they know they might be up for 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.280 in some places tens of millions of dollars in losses 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.760 and if they don't have insurance, that obviously has a 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:32.400 big impact on their decision making. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.520 One more question from me, Mitch, you're in these rooms, 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.680 many would argue you're talking on behalf of young Australians 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.560 here trying to establish a future for the festival industry. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.400 What points are you finding resonate the best with government 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.480 and with let's say, you know, it's not a nice 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:52.480 way to say, but let's say people outside the target 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.920 demographic of going to a festival. Is it the point 0:12:56.000 --> 0:13:00.160 about how important these are economically for regional communities? For 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.960 industry or is it what we started this discussion with 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.200 about how important festivals are to the cultural fabric. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.559 Both factors work for governments, and I think the combination 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.240 of the two is literally what is convincing people. It's 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.840 not just that you know, their formative experience for young 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.760 people to enjoy time with their mates and you know 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.360 their identity building they were for me. I think the 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:29.719 cancelations have crystallized their potential loss of the benefits of 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.800 the economic impacts on regional communities. I think it has 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.360 really sort of focused the minds of government. You know, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:40.800 the report released yesterday outlines five hundred and thirty five 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.720 festivals across the country. It's a huge spread of events 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.920 across the country that if we start to see more cancelations, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.040 it's going to have a huge one on effect. And 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.280 I guess the other thing is it's not just about 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.200 the audience of going to festivals, and it's not just 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.240 about our members the people putting on the events. We're 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:05.200 seeing Australian artists struggle to make it in the globalized 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:10.080 English speaking music market. They're fighting against you know, really 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:16.000 powerful algorithms on streaming services and nobody sort of quite 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:23.760 understood how to really get their break, and the importance 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:30.640 of both radio and festivals for Australian artists is even 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:35.160 larger because of that difficulty in making their break in 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.160 this sort of globalized music market. So I think we've 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.120 seen a number of examples of Australian artists talking about, 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.560 you know, the impact that getting on a stage enabled 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.640 them to develop their audience here and actually give them, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.360 you know, a following that then they were able to 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.600 use to get a record deal or to be able 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.560 to tour overseas. And I think that's the piece that 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.800 we in the music industry like, We really see it 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.880 as an ecosystem and if you see festivals falling over 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.360 it could have a huge flow on impact to the 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.840 broader Australian music industry and artists. 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:13.760 Mitche Wilson, thanks so much for joining us in the 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:14.560 Daily Odds today. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.560 Thank you so much for listening to today's podcast of 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.760 the Daily Os. I thought that was an absolutely fascinating chat. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.880 If you would like to hear more from us, you 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.400 can follow on Spotify or Apple. As well as getting 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.160 it into your feet every morning, it also really helps 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.200 the Daily Ods grow and helps new audiences find us 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.560 thank you so much and we will be back tomorrow. 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.920 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Adunda 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.720 Bungelung Calcoton woman from Gadighl country. 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.680 The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.200 the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.600 all Aboriginal and Torres Strait island and nations. We pay 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.560 our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:56.480 past and present.