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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, there's more to having a conversation or a debate

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Speaker 2: than just making sure that you shout the loudest and

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Speaker 2: have the highest energy and get heard.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 2: This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com. Do I I'm here with Kylie, my wife

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Speaker 2: and podcast co host, Mum.

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Speaker 3: To our six daughters.

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Speaker 2: Kylie, we are going to have a conversation just now

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Speaker 2: that I think people are going to love.

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Speaker 4: You.

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Speaker 3: Know how people are always saying I can never get

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Speaker 3: the kids to talk.

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Speaker 5: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: This is going to change that forever. Although I don't

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Speaker 2: know if these are the conversations that we sometimes want

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Speaker 2: to have with our children, it's going to be, well,

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Speaker 2: well we do, but boy, it's tricky. We are going

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Speaker 2: to have a conversation right now with Michael Parker. Michael

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Speaker 2: is the author of a brand new book called Talk

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Speaker 2: with Your Kids About Things That Matter. Now, this is

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Speaker 2: actually a revised and updated book, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: that shortly. But with the current pandemic context, it is

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Speaker 2: such a great time for it, and it's a wonderful book.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Michael's also the principal at Newington College

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Speaker 2: in Sydney and he joins us right now.

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Speaker 5: Michael, it's so good to have you with us today.

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Speaker 4: As I've spent time in the book, it looks like

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Speaker 4: it's a book full of hypotheticals, am I right?

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Speaker 6: There are many hypotheticals, and you get.

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Speaker 4: Why do you think it's important to have these kinds

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Speaker 4: of conversations with our kids?

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Speaker 6: I mean the hypotheticals in particular.

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Speaker 7: I'm great to allow you to get to get into

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Speaker 7: an issue without either talking about your friends or your

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Speaker 7: family or a news item. And another thing that you

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Speaker 7: can do with hypotheticals is you can pretend to be

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Speaker 7: an expert. So if you are the head of a

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Speaker 7: medical board and five people come to you wanting a

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Speaker 7: kidney transplant, and you say, here are five hypothetical people

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Speaker 7: who you're going to give it to, it allows you

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Speaker 7: to get into all those conversations about life, about valuing

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Speaker 7: a life, how do you value a life in those

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Speaker 7: things without it feeling like you know, you're talking about

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Speaker 7: agnes or you're talking about some terrible story on the news.

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Speaker 7: So I love using hypotheticals.

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Speaker 5: Kind of takes the emotion out of the conversation then.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it just makes it just makes it a

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Speaker 7: little bit more playful. Sometimes even if the topic is

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Speaker 7: not as.

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Speaker 5: Playful, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: It reminds me, Michael, when Justin and I first met,

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Speaker 4: Justin was really big on these hypothetical conversations. We used

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Speaker 4: to sit in the car as we were driving to

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Speaker 4: and from places, and he would just ask me these

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Speaker 4: ridiculous questions.

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Speaker 3: That weren't ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: We were dating, and I wanted to know what your

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Speaker 2: values were, so I'd just hit you with all these hypotheticals.

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Speaker 5: But we would talk for hours and hours.

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Speaker 4: I'd gone up in a home where we weren't particularly

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Speaker 4: curious learners, and so it was a really different conversation

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Speaker 4: that I was having with Justin, which obviously was what

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Speaker 4: I fell in love with, because the conversation was never boring.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they're they're great fun and kids

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Speaker 7: kids do it as well. And even with yes, to

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Speaker 7: use an example, something like conspiracy theories. Now we know

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Speaker 7: that we've seen the corrosive, dreadful effect that.

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Speaker 6: That conspiracy theories have had in the last couple of years.

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Speaker 7: So but to raise it, to start it, the example

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Speaker 7: I've got is your your friend comes and tells you

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Speaker 7: that all the all the teachers at school have been

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Speaker 7: replaced by shape shifting aliens who are teachers and they're

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Speaker 7: they're taking Yeah. And then I've got a whole lot

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Speaker 7: of sets of proof, like when would you believe it?

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Speaker 6: Because your friends saying it?

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Speaker 7: Because uh, the the Prime Minister has gone on TV

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Speaker 7: and said that there are shape shifting aliens instead of

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Speaker 7: your teacher. And I've got a whole bunch of others,

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Speaker 7: including you see them by the coffee machine.

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Speaker 6: When when do you believe it?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 7: And so that the challenge of when do you believe

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Speaker 7: something extraordinary comes in but has been fun the whole time,

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Speaker 7: And then of course you can relate it to something like,

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Speaker 7: you know, hypothetically election fraud.

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Speaker 3: Michael, I love.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting here grinning from ear to ear as you

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Speaker 2: talk about this, because these are conversations that really get

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Speaker 2: to the heart of who we are, how we think,

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Speaker 2: what makes us, not necessarily what makes us tick, but

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Speaker 2: what would move us, what would motivate us for making

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Speaker 2: a certain decision making of values based judgment. I'm flicking

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Speaker 2: through the contents again just to highlight some of these

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Speaker 2: hypothetical these hypothetical scenarios or even real life scenarios that

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Speaker 2: our children wrestle with.

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Speaker 3: You've got things I love this.

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Speaker 2: You've got stuff around animal rights, about meat, about whether

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Speaker 2: we should be killing and hunting animals. Like we've got

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Speaker 2: six daughters, Michael, do you think that we've ever experienced

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Speaker 2: a daughter that says I'm going to be a vegetarian.

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Speaker 7: You know, I did have a daughter years ago who

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Speaker 7: said that, and I said, fine, eat your vegetables, and

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Speaker 7: that was the endnet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, well we should try that. But there's things

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Speaker 2: in here about trust and racism and prejudice.

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Speaker 3: There's really big thinking stuff.

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Speaker 2: And what I love about it as well, because you've

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Speaker 2: got this philosophical background, You've got your masters in philosophy.

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Speaker 2: You're bringing in some of the some of the really

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Speaker 2: big thinkers of history. You've got Plato and Aristotle, and

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Speaker 2: you're talking about Emmanual Can't for example, and Hobbes.

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Speaker 3: And I'm kind of.

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Speaker 2: Looking at this and I'm thinking, this is hard to

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Speaker 2: have conversations about things like you talk about the pandemic.

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Speaker 2: You talk about vaccinations, You talk about how you would

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Speaker 2: roll things out, like talking to the children, how would

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Speaker 2: you roll it out who should get the vaccine first?

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Speaker 2: When there's this brand new flu that hits and obviously

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Speaker 2: you haven't caught it COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 3: You've given a different name and created forty two.

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Speaker 2: That's but as I was thinking about it, I thought thinking,

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Speaker 2: there's a great quote from Henry Ford. Thinking is really

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Speaker 2: hard work, which is probably why so few people engage

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Speaker 2: in it. What I've also discovered is that it's fun.

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Speaker 2: Kids really enjoyed.

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Speaker 5: Especially when you're talking about shape shift.

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Speaker 3: Is that's right?

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Speaker 2: But I'm thinking there's a phrase that I love to

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Speaker 2: use with my kids, and that is that it's hard fun,

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Speaker 2: really hard fun. And what have you found when you're

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Speaker 2: having these conversations with students at school or with groups

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Speaker 2: of kids that you get to engage with around these topics.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so most of them, because it peaks their curiosity,

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Speaker 7: they then get into it. It helps with the open mindedness,

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Speaker 7: so it does all that. So you can play around

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Speaker 7: with that, and then if you go further and further

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Speaker 7: and ask why a few more times than getting too

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Speaker 7: then you get the rigor coming in as well, this

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Speaker 7: is this is actually hard and it's a muscle and

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Speaker 7: I'm working it, and that is that is really important.

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Speaker 6: I think to be to be a thinker or a

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Speaker 6: citizen in the world, because these things really are are hard.

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Speaker 7: So I think it's it's great to have your curiosity

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Speaker 7: peaks and go, oh.

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Speaker 6: What is this?

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Speaker 7: But then you then you then you dive in and

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Speaker 7: with the with your parents and with your family continuing

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Speaker 7: to do all these all these tricks in a conversation

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Speaker 7: to push it further. Then you then you get to

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Speaker 7: the really meeting stone.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you mentioned that as well, because

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Speaker 2: it's a real skill and a lot of people struggle

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Speaker 2: with it. They'll say, well, I asked them the question

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Speaker 2: and then they give me the answer, and then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: and what you've what you've done really nicely is and

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Speaker 2: so so gently is as you've said no, no, no, that's

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Speaker 2: the bit where you start to really ask the questions

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Speaker 2: where you say, well, tell me more about that, or

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Speaker 2: why do you feel that way?

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Speaker 3: Or what about if this happened, how would that change it?

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Speaker 2: And that's when, like you said, you start to get

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Speaker 2: rigorous and go deeper, and it makes it so so

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Speaker 2: so interesting. In just a sec we're gonna disclose what

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Speaker 2: happened when we tried to have a conversation with our

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Speaker 2: kids about one of the big topics in talk with

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Speaker 2: your kids about Things that Matter. We're talking with Michael Parker.

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Speaker 2: He's the author of Talk with Your Things about Sorry,

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Speaker 2: Talk with your Things, Talk with your kids, have talked

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Speaker 2: with your Things?

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Speaker 3: Go on? Just do it. Talk with your kids about

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Speaker 3: things that matter, the principle of New Eton College. More

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Speaker 3: in just a.

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Speaker 1: Second, it's their Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 7: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 7: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we

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Speaker 4: have a special guest, Michael Parker, author of Talk with

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Speaker 4: Your Kids About Things that Matter.

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Speaker 3: I believe I said talk with your things about kids

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Speaker 3: that matter.

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Speaker 2: Michael, I sat down with our kids a little over

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Speaker 2: a week ago with the book. I opened it up

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Speaker 2: to the chapter about vaccines, and I started to go

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Speaker 2: through the conversation with them we had a fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old and eleven year old in the room. The other

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Speaker 2: kids were off doing other things and couldn't participate in

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Speaker 2: the conversation. And this is hard for me to say

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Speaker 2: because I am a parenting expert. Michael, at least that's

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Speaker 2: what my bio says. It didn't go well. What happened

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Speaker 2: is that one child came quite dominant, began to raise

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Speaker 2: her voice, absolutely refused to listen to what her sister

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Speaker 2: had to say. That her other sister became irate, and

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Speaker 2: instead of having a philosophical conversation, which was I mean,

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Speaker 2: I had this beautiful evening planned where we were going

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Speaker 2: to play around with ideas and dig deep, they just

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Speaker 2: shout at each other. Then they crossed their across their

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Speaker 2: arms instead of each other and said, you don't know

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Speaker 2: what you're talking about. And that was kind of it,

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Speaker 2: and I would try to open them up again. I'd

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Speaker 2: ask another question. I'd say, well, hang on, let's let's

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Speaker 2: try and teach you how to listen and understand and

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Speaker 2: see what Michael helped me any tips.

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Speaker 7: Well, one of the things that you that you can

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Speaker 7: do is say there's there's a everybody gets the say

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Speaker 7: the thirty percent chart that the thirty percent of speaking time.

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Speaker 6: Something that you do.

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Speaker 7: At school is you you have a series of sort

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Speaker 7: of like five or six match sticks each or something

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Speaker 7: like that, and when you've said your bit, you throw

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Speaker 7: it in.

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Speaker 6: So you've got so much time to speak, but.

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Speaker 3: But not more.

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Speaker 7: There there is a phrase about heat and light, and

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Speaker 7: you can you can start saying, so, okay, so what

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Speaker 7: you've got there, how much how much heat was in that?

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Speaker 6: And how much light is in that? And if there's

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Speaker 6: too much.

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Speaker 7: Heat, well maybe you've you've got to tone you tune

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Speaker 7: that down.

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Speaker 6: And it's not about and that that then has nothing.

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Speaker 7: To do with the the individual conversation about vaccines or

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Speaker 7: whatever the issue is. It's the sheer fact that by

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Speaker 7: by having having really got emotional about it, or having

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Speaker 7: really yeah, put your put your line in the sand,

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Speaker 7: you've you've sort of hurt the conversation by not allowing

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Speaker 7: those other things. Another thing to do is is the

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Speaker 7: phrase devil's advocate. I find is really really important to say, Okay,

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Speaker 7: let's have the other person playing devil's advocate. So it's

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Speaker 7: not even as if somebody is opposing you because they

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Speaker 7: really disagree with you. It's that's that's the that's the trick,

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Speaker 7: or that's the game of the game.

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Speaker 6: But that's that's what you're supposed to have.

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Speaker 7: We're supposed to find the other argument or the other side,

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Speaker 7: and then the person can come back with that. Well,

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Speaker 7: you can get them to play Devil's Advocate on themselves.

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Speaker 6: So if you had to.

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Speaker 7: So there're some of the things that you can do

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Speaker 7: when when the heat starts going up.

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Speaker 4: I think you should have just broad in the shape

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Speaker 4: shift is would have changed everything.

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Speaker 2: Should But we'll put the shape shifters at the top

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Speaker 2: of the vaccine queue.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll find another topic.

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Speaker 7: Vaccinations at the moment is probably the hottest topic around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I did pick one that would fire

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Speaker 2: them up. I confess I probably didn't set them up

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Speaker 2: for the most successful conversation. But that's the world that

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Speaker 2: we live in, right, I mean, this is what happens

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Speaker 2: on Facebook, and I mean Twitter is just so over

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Speaker 2: the top with this kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: It is the world we live in.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's why this book's so so very important,

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Speaker 2: because it teaches kids that there's more to having a

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Speaker 2: conversation or a debate than just making sure that you

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Speaker 2: shout the loudest and have the highest energy and get heard.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And and a lot of where a

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Speaker 7: lot of this comes from this I think all the

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Speaker 7: philosophy and schools movement, and there's actually not all that

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Speaker 7: much philosophy. There's some philosophy in it, but it's not

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Speaker 7: But it's all about how to have those discussions. And

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Speaker 7: admittedly it's it's it's in larger groups, but that that

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Speaker 7: it's really focused on giving, giving reasons, pointing out your assumptions,

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Speaker 7: finding the the other, the other point of view. And

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Speaker 7: so it's those techniques are the things that matter for

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Speaker 7: you know, for rational discourse, for being able to to

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Speaker 7: talking about not ending up you know, throw it, throwing

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Speaker 7: the plate around the dinner parties when you're an adult. So

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Speaker 7: so I think, yes, it is, it is over a

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Speaker 7: period of time, going through that process that's as important

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Speaker 7: as whatever thing you spoke about vaccines, torture or masks

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Speaker 7: or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Michael, I'm wondering, how do I keep our my own bias?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if I'm having these conversations and I've got really

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Speaker 4: strong opinions about it, how do I how do I

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Speaker 4: have a conversation with my kids that allows them.

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Speaker 3: Or did you say with your husband that keeps your

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Speaker 3: bias out?

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Speaker 7: So I got asked by my daughter two days ago,

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Speaker 7: what is what is the National Party?

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Speaker 6: What do they stand for?

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Speaker 7: And I said, Okay, I'm going to I'm going to

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Speaker 7: say it, and at the end of it, I want

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Speaker 7: you to have no idea whether you whether whether I

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Speaker 7: would vote for them or not. And and so I

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Speaker 7: so that then gave me a discipline to speak about

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Speaker 7: it as as as neutraally as I could. And she

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Speaker 7: probably knows after sixteen years, she probably knows enough about

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Speaker 7: me to know whether I would have voted for them.

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Speaker 7: But one of the so to keep your biases to

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Speaker 7: your own biases out, one of the the things you

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Speaker 7: can do is is have the whole spectrum of opinions

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Speaker 7: and present all of them and and just just sort

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Speaker 7: of lay them out like a small bes board. So so,

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Speaker 7: for example, I mean using the vaccines, you can say,

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Speaker 7: here are five pers here are five different things that

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Speaker 7: could be about people who aren't getting vaccinated, and you

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Speaker 7: can say every everything from that.

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Speaker 6: Those people should be able to.

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Speaker 7: Live their lives as as as freely and as well

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Speaker 7: as everybody else too, and then you can go through

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Speaker 7: a series of restrictions to they have to hibernate in

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Speaker 7: their own house till the crack of doom. And if

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Speaker 7: you've got all of all of the options open, it

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Speaker 7: is less likely that that someone can go, well, there's

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Speaker 7: there's your bias there.

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Speaker 6: I did the same thing recently with them.

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Speaker 7: We were talking about who could who could get refugee

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Speaker 7: status in Australia, and again we just we used everything

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Speaker 7: from nobody to everybody and everything in between, and that

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Speaker 7: helped with reducing sort of my own biases.

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Speaker 2: I really love the concept here of helping our children

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Speaker 2: to think things through, even from a young age, because

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Speaker 2: it's going to help them to be more more thoughtful

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Speaker 2: as adults, but also to be better citizens of our communities,

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Speaker 2: of our global community, because when we think this stuff through,

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Speaker 2: we get to tap into what matters to us. We

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Speaker 2: get to focus on our ethical and principal base and

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Speaker 2: and make decisions from there, rather than flying off because

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Speaker 2: we don't like what we just saw on the telly

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Speaker 2: and we have to let the whole world know on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: I love that we're almost we're almost out of time.

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Speaker 2: But there's one question that I've been itching to ask

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Speaker 2: you since we began the conversation, Michael, and that is

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Speaker 2: when it comes to talking with your kids about things

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Speaker 2: that matter. What do you think matters the most? What

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Speaker 2: is the number one thing that you think kids need

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Speaker 2: to talk with their parents about and have meaningful interaction on.

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Speaker 6: My answer is very un sexy.

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Speaker 7: It is how to live as a decent friend, school person, husband, wife, employee.

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Speaker 7: So those questions about would you know when, would you

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Speaker 7: when you've ever?

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Speaker 6: Would you still still from your boss with the supermarket?

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Speaker 7: What happens when your friends go to part your best

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Speaker 7: friends invited to a party, and then you get invited

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Speaker 7: to a much much better party, much more exciting party

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Speaker 7: from somewhere else. Those sorts of questions about the life

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Speaker 7: that they will lead and the moral and the ethical

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Speaker 7: decisions that they will probably have to make in life.

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Speaker 6: I think they're the most.

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Speaker 7: Important ones, even though they're not the ones we sort

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Speaker 7: of neon lights and the sort of flashing lights in

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Speaker 7: the book, Michael.

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Speaker 4: If we were to wrap up by conversation today, what

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Speaker 4: would be your take home messages? Nice quick take home

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Speaker 4: messages for parents?

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Speaker 7: Okay, so two or three things to remember as you're

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Speaker 7: sitting by that dinner table. Is one ask why, and

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Speaker 7: then ask it again. Usually three wives get you to

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Speaker 7: a really good place, and five wives get you to

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Speaker 7: somewhere absurd. So a couple of wives in there, try

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Speaker 7: not to have your own biases come out.

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Speaker 6: The kids.

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Speaker 7: The kids are the ones doing the talking, so you're

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Speaker 7: the one really helping them and shaping them rather than

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Speaker 7: telling them what you really think. And the third one

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Speaker 7: would be to play devil's advocate, so that is gently

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Speaker 7: putting the other side, not because you disagree with them,

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Speaker 7: but just because you've explained what the other side was.

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Speaker 7: And probably the last one is talk less than half

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Speaker 7: the time. If you find yourself talking half the time

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Speaker 7: or more than, you've probably turned into a lecture and

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Speaker 7: her problem. Q.

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Speaker 2: Now, I was going to say that's my biggest problem,

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Speaker 2: but I think that's ours because you don't mind that either,

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Speaker 2: do you, Kylie. Really you're so harsh, Michael, Even as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned those things, I'm smiling at the conversations that

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Speaker 2: you get to have with your kids about it.

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Speaker 3: The book is really, really wonderful.

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Speaker 2: We were joking before we recorded the podcast that it's

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Speaker 2: a kind of a clunky title, as several of my

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Speaker 2: books are as well. But it's just such a great

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Speaker 2: book that the title says exactly what it is, and

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad we've been able to talk about it today.

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Speaker 2: Talk with your Kids About Things that Matter by Michael Parker,

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Speaker 2: the principal at New England College.

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Speaker 3: Michael, what a privilege and what a great conversation. Thanks

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Speaker 3: for joining us.

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Speaker 6: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: We really hope that you've enjoyed this conversation with Michael Parker,

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Speaker 2: the author of Talk with Your Kids About Things that Matter.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if

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Speaker 2: you'd like more information about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 2: including checking out our Happy Family's memberships where you get

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Speaker 2: ongoing monthly and weekly and even daily support, please have

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Speaker 2: a look at Happy Families dot com dot a u