1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Imagine having an idea for a product, and specifically a 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: new gin. You team up with a couple of mates 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: and then within six years it gets named the world's 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: best gin. Is in the best gin on the entire planet. 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: This is what happened to Matt Jones, one of the 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: co founders of Four Pillars Gin. In twenty nineteen, six 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: years after it was founded, Four Pillars Gin was named 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: the world's leading gin producer by the IWSC in London, 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: and they repeated this in twenty twenty, making Australia's favorite 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: gin officially the world's best. As well as being one 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: of the three co founders of Four Pillars Gin, Matt 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: Jones is also its brand director. Matt's job is to 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: make sure that the work his partners do on creating 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: the world's best gin translates to the rest of the brand. 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: But what does that look like? And how do you 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: create a world renowned alcohol brand in less than a decade? 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: And why is Matt so obsessed with esthetics? My name 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: I work A show about how to help you do 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: your best work. An important philosophy at Four Pillars Jin 22 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: is that they say they are makers not marketers. Given 23 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: Matt's role is that a brand director. I naturally assume 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: this would entail some marketing. So why doesn't Matt consider 25 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: himself a marketer. 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: There are probably lots of answers to that question, not 27 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: all of them are good ones. A short one is 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: I'm probably a little bit of a contrarian. I probably 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: like to get get into a debate, but often that 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: is in service of getting people to think. And I 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: guess I coined the phrase makers not marketers because I 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: wanted people to think about what it was that made 33 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: Four Pillars successful. And that really went back to why 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: we started the gin journey, you know, back in twenty 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 2: twelve when we started to think about it. In twenty thirteen, 36 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: when we launched, we did it because we felt it 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: was possible to make better gin here in Australia. We 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: felt that Australia offered some of the best possible conditions 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: for making gin. You know, the great thing about gin 40 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: is it has to be distilled on a canvas of juniper. 41 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: But after juniper you can kind of go. You can 42 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: go nuts. You can go wherever you want, you can 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: distill what you want, and you can play with flavor. 44 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: You can play with natural, indigenous botanicals and ingredients, And 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: nowhere has a stronger flavor culture, Nowhere has greater access 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: to different produce, different ingredients, different botanical than here in Australia. 47 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: So you kind of couldn't grow a better sort of 48 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: laboratory setting for making gin than Australia. This is the 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: perfect place to do it. And so as a result, 50 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: we thought, you know what, we can truly make better gin. 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: We can't just make better Australian gin. We can make 52 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 2: some of the world's best gin here in Australia. But 53 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 2: we'll only do that if we get up every day 54 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: really charged and focused with that energy around making the 55 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: most of the opportunity of making gin here. And to 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: do that, we've got to have this make a mindset. 57 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: We've got to have this mindset that says, A, every 58 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: day we get trying to make a better product, and 59 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: b if we were down to our last thousand bucks, 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: what would we spend that on? And the answer should 61 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: be making, not marketing. So it was not about saying 62 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: we will never do marketing, because of course that would 63 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: be daft. It would be silly to make a better product, 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: a different product, and then not creatively tell people about that, 65 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: credibly share that with the world. The point was to 66 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: really think about our source of differentiation and to say 67 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: that's going to come from the quality of what we make, 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: not the cleverness of how we market. 69 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: One aspect of four Pillars, I think that really stands out, 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: and I was just having a little pop onto your 71 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: website before we started recording, is something you believe is 72 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: really undervalued when it comes to brand, which is aesthetics. 73 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: And I'd love to know, like, what does this term 74 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: mean to you and how do you really infuse it 75 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: into your thinking around the Four Pillars brand. 76 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: It's a great question, and it is going to reveal 77 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: what a hypocrite Having said that we're making marketers, I'm 78 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: going to talk about a key piece of marketing, which 79 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: is sort of design and imagery and aesthetics and all 80 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: those things. Look, the logic is pretty straightforward, and you're right, 81 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: I do think it is. It is something that people 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 2: consistently undervalue and underinvest in, and I'll tell you why 83 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: in the second But I'll first of all, I'll tell 84 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: you why I think it's important. For Four Pillars, the 85 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 2: logic is pretty straightforward. If we are makers not marketers, 86 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: or or to put it another way, if we are 87 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: makers first and only then are we're marketers. Then the 88 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 2: thought process was that the best way to get people 89 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: to appreciate what we're making is to get them as 90 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: close as we can to the process of making gin. 91 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: It's sort of the opposite of you know the old 92 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: cliche about if you ever saw a butcher maker sausage, 93 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: you never read a sausage again. Well, we want people 94 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: to see the sausage being made. We want people to 95 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: get up close and personal with the craft of making gin, 96 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: because if they do, they'll realize just had differentiated, just 97 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: have fantastic. The way that Cameron and the team at 98 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: Four Pillars Distillery and Heels will make gin is but 99 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: you can't force everyone, especially as you grow, as you 100 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: grow beyond that hardcore early adopter audience and you start 101 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: to reach a more mainstream consumer. You know, orbit it's 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: a mainstream consumer who can afford to spend eighty ninety 103 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: bucks on a bottle of gin, But nonetheless they're not 104 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: that hardcore early adopter audience, you're growing into a more 105 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: of a mainstream audience. You can't force all of them 106 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: to care as much as you do about the craft, 107 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: about the attention to detail. But what you can do 108 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: is lay down clues, is give them a sense of 109 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: the craft, a sense of the attention to detail, a 110 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: sense of how much you care about everything you do. 111 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: And if one of the ways that we can do 112 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: that is with the attention to detail, we apply to 113 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: other areas to design, to print, to photography, imagery, aesthetics, film, 114 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: always making sure that what's coming through is this sense 115 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: of care, this sense of quality, this sense of craft. 116 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: The second way it's really really important. I think that 117 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: this sense of aesthetics is we are in a fundamentally 118 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: sensory business. We're in an irrational business. We're in a 119 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: business of people feeling good, not just about the flavor 120 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: of the drink they make, the flavor of the gin 121 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: they taste, but the process of making it, the sense 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: of they're taking care of themselves, they're treating themselves. There's 123 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: a specialist to it. And so if we want to 124 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: sort of evoke those feelings and those emotions and those associations, 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: then we can't just let the liquid do the heavy lifting. 126 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: We've got to help it. We've got to help it 127 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: with the quality of the packaging, the quality of the imagery, 128 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: the photography. Again, so for all those reasons, both the 129 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: way that we are conveying our craft values, the way 130 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: that we're communicating something really important and inherent to four pillars, 131 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: which is that attend to detail, but also the way 132 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: that we're trying to evoke those same emotions, those same 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: sensory cues that we want the liquid and the drink 134 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: to For all those reasons, it's really really important to us. 135 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: And how do you do that though? In terms of 136 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: having this really high standard with aesthetics? I mean, you know, 137 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: it's one thing to have brand guide signs that are 138 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: followed by everyone that works on visual aspects of the brand, 139 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: but like, how do you like uphold this really high 140 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: standard to have everything be you know, so esthetically like 141 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: pleasing and beautiful. 142 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's nice to hear you say that. Secondly, 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: I guess there's different ways into that answer. You know, 144 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: one is how do you do it mechanically? Or you've 145 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: got to work with good people, and that's not just 146 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: about having people in the business with a great eye, 147 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: great understanding of how the brand should show up in 148 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: the world, great attention to detail. But not everyone has 149 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: that in their business, and that's okay. You've got to 150 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: have great partners. We work with phenomenal photographers, stylists, We've 151 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: got an incredible design and content agency, people I've been 152 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: working with for more than a decade now, who we 153 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: trust with our brand's life. But a different way to 154 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: answer that question is you've got to value it. You've 155 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: got to allocate both budget and time and attention to that. 156 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: You've got to not allow good enough to be good enough. 157 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: And I think this goes to it's kind of bigger 158 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: conversation about understanding what are the things that are going 159 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: to move the needle for your business and move the 160 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: needle for your brand, and making sure that having identified 161 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: those things, you invest appropriately in them and you don't 162 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: underinvest in them. Because we are all enormously constrained, aren't we, 163 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: in terms of not just the budgets we've got, but 164 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: the time we have, the emotional energy we have, and 165 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 2: it's very easy to allow something to get to a 166 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: point of good enough, that sense of that will do 167 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: and to go, oh, thank goodness, that's another thing ticked 168 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: off the list, and in some areas that will be 169 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: good enough for your business. But if these are things 170 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 2: that are going to help to define your business, to 171 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: differentiate your brand, then good enough is not going to 172 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: cut it. And so for us, the decision early on 173 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: was if Cameron, who's one of my co founders, was 174 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: going to make the best gin in the world, and 175 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: stew the third co founder, was going to go and 176 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: tell the best stories in the world and go and 177 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: knock down doors and do all the amazing stuff he 178 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: does building relationships, then one of the contributions I could 179 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: make from a brand point of view was to make 180 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: sure that every touch point of that liquid and that 181 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: story was as good as it could be and working 182 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: as hard as it could. And that is an exhausting effort. 183 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: That is a decision that you make to not let 184 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: things slide past you that clearly could be better, and 185 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: to surround yourself with people who when you sort of 186 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 2: run out of a little bit of energy and go, oh, 187 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, I think maybe that design's good enough, 188 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: they go, I don't think it is. I think we 189 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: need to push again. 190 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: Now. Of course, related to everything that you've been describing 191 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: is creativity, and creativity is a really significant part of 192 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: the DNA of four pillars, and I would love to know, like, 193 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: at a practical level, how how do you promote and 194 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: foster creativity within the business and you know, within yourself 195 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: as well. 196 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot, There's a lot there isn't there. 197 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: And it's such a interesting word. Like I've I've had 198 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: an evolving relationship I think with the with the idea 199 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: of creativity. There have been moments in my career when 200 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: I've felt like creativity is almost sort of a term 201 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: that's thrown around too liberally and it becomes too democratic 202 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: and actually the act of creativity and sort of the 203 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 2: act of creative value creation through creativity should belong to 204 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: those people with a real sense of expertise and training 205 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: in that space. And then there've been other times and 206 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: I felt that it does need to be more democratized 207 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: and open to a wider range of contributions. I think 208 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: we're probably somewhere in the middle of that spectrum of 209 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: four pillars. The first thing to say is that we 210 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: are just incredibly lucky. But then, as the cliche goes, 211 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: I think we probably do a good job of making 212 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: our own luck. So I'll unpack that a bit. Where 213 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: we're incredibly lucky is primarily with Cameron. So Cameron is 214 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: the co founder who really matters. He is the well 215 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: he always reminds us there's no such thing as a 216 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 2: former Olympian. He is the Olympian who ran for Australia 217 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: in Atlanta. He was a foruna meter runner. He was 218 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: in the relay team there, made the semifinals. So he's 219 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: a really determined, relentless guy. He does not settle when 220 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: he feels there's something better to be done. And his 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: nation and his relentlessness turns out he doesn't just apply 222 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: that to doing the same thing better, He applies that 223 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: to doing different things. So with that, he's incredibly curious. 224 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: He's got this great palette and he's just got fantastic ideas. 225 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: And probably back when I was in the creative agency, 226 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: they're not ideas that I would have recognized as big ideas. Instead, 227 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 2: what they are a small ideas that he executes beautifully. 228 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: So I'll give you an example. He grew up one 229 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: of five boys, the youngest of five brothers, and every 230 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: derby day, every Victorian Derby Day, the weekend before Melbourne Cup. 231 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: His mum would get all the boys into the kitchen 232 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: and she would get to help make the Christmas puddings 233 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: for that year, and his dad would be in the 234 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: living room losing money on the races. And Cameron really 235 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: loved this tradition growing up. And so he's got three 236 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: daughters and so he sort of had the same tradition 237 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: with them and got them war into kitchen on Derby 238 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: Day to make Christmas puddings. And he's doing this back 239 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen to only a couple of years into 240 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: the Four Pillars journey, and he's looking at the ingredient 241 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: list and he's still using his mum's nineteen sixty eight 242 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: Woman's Weekly Christmas Pudding recipe and he's looking at all 243 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: the ingredients and he's going, these things would order still, 244 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: and so without telling me and stew, which is probably 245 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: one of the ingredients of creativity in this case, he 246 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: just goes down the distillery that afternoon. He gets the 247 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: girls to make a couple of extra puddings, and he 248 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: goes down the stillery that afternoon and he distills those 249 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: Christmas puddings and what results is a gin with a 250 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: lot of those Christmas pudding flavors. But then I said, 251 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: he's quite uncompromising, and he tastes it and he's like, well, 252 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: it's quite delicious. And I suspect a man for that. 253 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: Eight out of ten distillers who'd had that idea at 254 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: that point would have settled. But Cameron thought to himself, 255 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: a Christmas is avou indulgence, and this isn't indulgence enough. 256 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: It's not rich enough. And he thought, wait a minute. 257 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: There were some barrels that the mates who works in windery, 258 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: because again we're in the Ara Valley, so we've got 259 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: lots of friends in the wine industry. And I made 260 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: of the wind industry had showed up with this pair 261 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: of one hundred year old barrels a few weeks before. 262 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: And these barrels had come over from Scotland eighty years ago. 263 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: There'd been William Grant's whiskey barrels eighty years ago. They 264 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: came to Australia, they ended up in Rutherglen. They'd spent 265 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: eighty years aging musket. They were kind of run out 266 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: of their they've done done their time in musket. And 267 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: this guy said to Cameron would you like them, and 268 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: he was like, well maybe. So there were these two 269 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: hundred year old musket barrels lying around, and camera though, well, 270 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: what would happen if I aged the distilled Christmas pudding 271 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: gin in those hundred year old musket barrels? And so 272 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: he does that, and then you know, eight months later 273 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: he tastes it and he's like, yeah, it's nearly there. 274 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: And so he then goes to a friend who works 275 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: up in Rutherglen and says, can they get some fresh muskets? 276 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: Would to add a little bit of tweak to the 277 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: finish of that, to add that extra bit of richness. 278 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: And only at that point, when he had sort of 279 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: explored and played and done all of this in the 280 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: shadows did he come to me and Stewards say, guys, 281 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: I've made this. I think it's Christmas gin. I think 282 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: it smells like gin, but tastes like Christmas? What do 283 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: you think? And so, no permission, just a sense of 284 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 2: following his instincts, good instincts, not then settling when it 285 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: was okay, but really pushing to a point where he 286 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: was happy and he was proud. And there are plenty 287 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: of experiments that never made it to that benchmark and 288 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: never got to that level, so we never saw them. 289 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: But then I think, to further answer your question, that's 290 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: when the second act of creativity comes in to get right. Well, 291 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: we've got this product that Cameron's created. It seems quite delicious, 292 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: It's got a wonderful story behind it. How do we 293 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: now do justice to it? So I then started to think, well, 294 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: if this is an embodiment of Christmas, and it's a 295 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: family tradition of Camerons, how could we make it an 296 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: embodiment of Christmas for four Pillars and a family tradition, 297 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: not just for the four Pillars family, but for our 298 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 2: family of customers. And I thought, well, maybe the way 299 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: that we do that is by making it a present. 300 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: And if it's a present, it should be wrapped. So 301 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 2: rather than wrapping it in a traditional label and lots 302 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: of branding, what if we wrap it in a piece 303 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 2: of art. And so we had the idea of commissioning 304 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: original pieces of art from Australian artists who could show 305 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: us their take on the Australian Christmas experience, not the 306 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: cold Northern Hemisphere Christmas experience, but the beautiful, hot, sunny, 307 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: sweaty Christmas experience that I've learned to love because I'm 308 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: from the UK originally, but you know, for twenty years 309 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 2: i've heard to love our version of Christmas. And so 310 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: then that's the second act of creativity. How do we contextualize, 311 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: how do we wrap this up? And then I think 312 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: the last piece, you know, the law lessons from our 313 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: Christmas gin journey to make that work, to be able 314 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: to sell back to my partners, the idea of creating 315 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: a four pillars product with no four Pillars branding on it. 316 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 2: I needed to have control. So the artist I went 317 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: to in year one was not the best artists I 318 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: could find, or the best artists I could dream of, 319 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: all the most high profile artists. It's an artist I 320 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: could trust. So I went to a friend who did 321 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: beautiful work, but also where there was a trust based 322 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: relationship where I could really say, look, this is what 323 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: I need, this is where I needed to go, this 324 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: is the timeline I've got to meet because I've got 325 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: to get this in early. And so that balance of 326 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: big idea and control. So from Cameron, that sense of 327 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: following his instincts and following his nose, trusting his gut, 328 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: which you only get to do because you've mastered your craft, 329 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: because you've got an understanding in his case, of how 330 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: flavor comes together. So that mastery of your craft gives you, 331 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: even if you're not a hugely creative person, that opportunity 332 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: to then listen to your gut more. And that I 333 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: think is something really important about creativity at four pillars. 334 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: It's intrinsic, not extrinsic. Comes primarily from what we want 335 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: to make based on our understanding of our craft, our 336 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 2: passion for gin, our passion for flavor, our mastery of 337 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: Australian botanicals in this case Cameron following his gut. It 338 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: then comes I think we're in a world where great 339 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: execution beats great big ideas badly executed. So then it 340 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: comes from that willingness to really push at that idea 341 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: and perfect that idea and get it to a point 342 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: where you think it deserves a wider audience. And then 343 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: I think it comes from that desire and that determination 344 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: to push at every other touch point of that, which 345 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 2: goes back to that conversation about product experience, aesthetics and go, 346 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: look this product. This creative idea for a product is fantastic, 347 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 2: but it's not finished until we've addressed every other touch point. 348 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: And then that willingness and that ability to then go 349 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: outside of your business and say, who can add value 350 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 2: to this. In the case of Christmas Gin, it was artists. 351 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: And we've had now seven years and wonderful experiences working 352 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: with art is, first ones we knew, and increasingly ones 353 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: that we've sought out because we've admired their work and 354 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: built a great relationship with So I think our experience 355 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 2: is unique, Amantha, because it's it's jin because every experience 356 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: is unique. But I think there are relatable, I hope, 357 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: lessons for every business. One about you know that the 358 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: more you master your craft, the more you can trust 359 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: your instincts. The second about then recognizing that the power 360 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: of the idea on paper is not what's going to 361 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: help you win. It's going to be the power of 362 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: the idea executed and realized, and that in turn relies 363 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: on your ability to apply that real, uncompromising attention to detail. 364 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: But the last thing is also just just a willingness 365 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: to back instincts and to back ideas that are intrinsic. 366 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: And you and I talked a bit earlier in this 367 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: podcast about things that are perhaps undervalued in business today, 368 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: and I think instinct is one of them. Intrinsic innovation. 369 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: I think if you've got a really strong sense of 370 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: your purpose, a really strong sense of the value that 371 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: you create and could create in the world, I think 372 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: if you've got a really great handle on your craft, 373 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: or your source of expertise, or what it is that 374 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: differentiates you in your field, then I think you should 375 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,959 Speaker 2: maybe trust your instincts a little bit more and not 376 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: always feel the need to question what does our customer 377 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 2: want next? Because often they don't know because they haven't 378 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: seen it. And I think that's something I'm really proud 379 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: of at Four Pillars that we've empowered first the founder 380 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 2: group with our different backgrounds and interests, but increasingly our 381 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: whole company to trust their instincts and to bring forward 382 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: ideas that are not always anchored in evidence, not always 383 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: anchored in well, this is what customers are asking for, 384 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 2: but instead anchored in a sense of four pillarsness. What 385 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: should four Pillars do next? What would the right thing 386 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: be for us to do and to make, and what 387 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: would it look like if we saw that through and 388 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: really fully committed to. 389 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: It, we will be back with Matt Soon talking about 390 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: the frameworks he uses to make decisions. If you're looking 391 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way that you work, 392 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool 393 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging 394 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: from software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting 395 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 396 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: dot code. That's how I work dot co. So an 397 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: important part of creativity is decision making, and it sounds 398 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: like you guys have made some brilliant decisions on which 399 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: ideas to move forward. And I've heard that you're a 400 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: fan of creating frameworks for decisions and you lack lists 401 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: of thought. Can you tell me about this, how you 402 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: create these frameworks for decision making? 403 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: Well, that does sound very grown up sized and perhaps 404 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: more structured, but look, it's true. I think, yeah, this 405 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: is a great question. I think at the heart of it, 406 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 2: what we're talking about is sort of the codification of 407 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: instincts and making sure that what you don't want to 408 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: do is correct frameworks that are so compelling that you 409 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: can talk yourself into bad decisions. But what you do 410 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: want to do, I think is just capture what it 411 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 2: is that is going to make you successful and sometimes retrospectively, 412 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: what has made you successful. So frameworks that we've built 413 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: at four Pillars include the four pillars of our purpose, 414 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: something we don't talk about really at all to our 415 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: external customers, but we talk about a lot internally. What 416 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: are the reasons why we exist, why we do these things, 417 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: why we matter in the world. And they are distilling cocktails, 418 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: modern Australia and community and we've got things to say 419 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: about all of them, but at the heart of it, 420 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: they are these four pillars of why we exist that 421 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: we can come back to. And so why that's helpful 422 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 2: is it gives people a lens that they can use 423 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: to talk about their ideas. So when they come to 424 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: the table and say, I've got this great idea for 425 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: a four pillars home in Sydney, and i don't think 426 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 2: we need another distillery, but I've looked at the purpose 427 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: and I'm thinking about that second pillar, to elevate and 428 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: celebrate the craft of the cocktail. As much as the 429 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: distillery is wonderful place, the distillery is really about the 430 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 2: first pillar of our purpose, to elevate the craft of 431 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: distilling gin. What if we built a home in Sydney 432 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: that was all about pillar number two, celebrating the craft 433 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: of a great cocktail, and it gives them a language, 434 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 2: It gives them something to hang that idea from that 435 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: then makes sense of it in the business and allows 436 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: us to explore it more and give it a center 437 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: of gravity, another structure or another little list of four 438 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: the four experienced principles, which really are about how we 439 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: want people to feel about us. That we want people 440 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 2: to experience four pillars as the most delicious, most creative, 441 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: most well designed and just most fun brand in gin. 442 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: And so that relationship between deliciousness and creativity and design 443 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 2: and fun helps give us guardrails. So as we're executing, 444 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: if I go back to the four pillars of the 445 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: boratory in Sydney and Surrey Hills, which is this beautiful 446 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: space anchored around this incredible bar, where the bartender and 447 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: the drink a sort of a sitting across this blue 448 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: juniper blue concrete bar, all on the same plane. It's 449 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: almost like a beautiful sushi counter in where you know, 450 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: chef and dinery unified around the space, except in this 451 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: case it's the bartender and the drinker. Now The reality 452 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 2: is as we executed that we could have got too serious. 453 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: You know, we worked with this incredible interior architect called 454 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 2: Yasmighanim and create this great space, but we could have 455 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 2: got too serious about the architecture and the craft of drinks, 456 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: making too invested in the creativity and the design strands 457 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: of our sort of experience principles. So then you come 458 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: back and you pull back to you but is it 459 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: going to be delicious? Is it going to be fun? 460 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: Are people are going to be relaxed enough to enjoy 461 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: their drink and feel like they're having a good time? 462 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 2: And so what these frameworks do? You know? Some give 463 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: you language to talk about ideas and how they fit 464 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: within the business. Some give you guardrails around design and 465 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: making sure that you're striking that right balance. You know. 466 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: I try and make sure that when we write marketing 467 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: strategies or when we build our growth strategies for a 468 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: market like the UK, that it comes down to typically 469 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: four key principles. I think it's about giving people language 470 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: that helps them to articulate why they think things are right. 471 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 2: What these frameworks should not become is a way of 472 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: bullying people into accepting ideas that are fundamentally bad. And 473 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: I think you know, I've worked a lot in the 474 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: in the corporate space over the years, and sometimes you 475 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: see these sort of values frameworks or these behaviors, and 476 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: the language around them is so flexible that they can 477 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: almost become this coverall that could support any idea, no 478 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 2: matter how bad. And I think that's the danger of frameworks. 479 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: So the other thing I'd say is that a framework 480 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: is only as good as the story it allows you 481 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: to tell. So as much as I like business to 482 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: have these frameworks and these lists, what I always want 483 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: to be behind them as stories. And something I really 484 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: encourage our team to do is to start presentations and 485 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: to start meetings and to start proposals of new ideas 486 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: is with're telling the story of why this is the 487 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: right thing to do and going back to those first 488 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: principles and using narrative language. I'm a big admirer of 489 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: that sort of narrative approach that Amazon has taken. The 490 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 2: Bezos took to making sure that decisions of Amazon were well considered. 491 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: I mean, we don't write the same three page long 492 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: form essays about our ideas, but let's still trying to 493 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: encourage that same sense of storytelling, So framework's useful, but 494 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: behind those frameworks needs to be a sense of narrative 495 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 2: and story. And frameworks should help people develop and anchor 496 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: their proposals and their designs and their thinking, but they 497 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to be used as a tool to 498 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: sort of ram bad ideas through the business. If you 499 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: see what to being. 500 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: Well, Matt, I have loved listening to your stories about 501 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: four Pillars, and for people that are wanting to engage 502 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: with four Pillars but maybe haven't, what are some good 503 00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: ways for people to do that? 504 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: Well, we write beautiful emails, so they can always jump 505 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: onto four Pillars gin dot com and sign up to 506 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: be on Wilmer's list. There's so much that we haven't 507 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: talked about today. 508 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: You know. 509 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: One of those things is that sense of building community 510 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: with your customers and treating your customers as family. And 511 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: I'd like to think that we do that over over 512 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: our emails. We're not too spammy, we're not too salesy. 513 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: We're really just trying to include people on the on 514 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: the journey and tell them the stories of what we're doing. 515 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: Whether it's you know, why our stills are named after 516 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: our mums or a new product we've released are a 517 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: little you know, small batch collaboration with an interesting brand 518 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: that is going to be here today and gone tomorrow. 519 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: So probably the best way is to sign up to 520 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: get emails. But equally, you know, I'm always happy to 521 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: get messages from folks and chat on LinkedIn. I'm very 522 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 2: easy to find Matt Jones. Four Pillars will get you there, 523 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram, and most importantly you've all come 524 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: and say hi in Heelsville or if you can't make 525 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: it a Heelsville come and say hi, and Sydney and 526 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: you know, come and have a drink and a tasting 527 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: and see what we do in the real world. 528 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: Amazing. Matt, Well, thank you so much for your time 529 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: and sharing what has gone on behind the scenes around 530 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: how four Pillars has been created and has gone from 531 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: gosh like is it nine years ago being born to 532 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: very quickly becoming the world's best gin brand. So thank you. 533 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: Thanks, Mantha, great to chat. 534 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: I loved hearing about Matt's obsession with aesthetics. It's something 535 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: that made me think about my own company Inventium, where 536 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: we do care a lot about the way things look, 537 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: as is hopefully obvious if you check out our website 538 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: at inventium dot com dot are you. But I don't 539 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: think we obsess over it enough. I mean, most of 540 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: what we produce is quite beautiful, I think, but then 541 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: there'll be details that we miss, like workshop handouts that 542 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: are in old branding or that just don't look as schmick. Anyway, 543 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: this interview made me take stock and think about the 544 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: impact that paying more attention to these details could have 545 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: on people's perceptions of the Inventium brand. How I Work 546 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 547 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank 548 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: you to my Nimba, who does the audio mix for 549 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound so much better than 550 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: it would have otherwise. 551 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: See you next time.