1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that those those two things, 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: you know, achieving my own goals and then helping other 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,079 Speaker 1: people that they stayed on my radar. And so what 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: I like to do is I like to start a 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: week by asking myself, what are three things I want 6 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: to accomplish and what are three people that I want 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: to help or three ways I want to be helpful? 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: And then you know, I just kind of do an 9 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: informal check in on a daily basis to ask am 10 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: I making progress toward those goals? And I think it 11 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: keeps me from getting stuck in the weeds of the 12 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: one goal that's happening to loom large at the moment, 13 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: and it forces me to make sure that I've got 14 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: my priorities in an order. 15 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 18 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 19 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my work. Date. On today's show, 20 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: I speak to organizational psychologist, best selling author and Wharton's 21 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: highest rated professor, Adam Grant. His books give and Take 22 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: Originals and Option B have sold over one million copies 23 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: and have been translated into thirty five languages. Adam has 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: been recognized as one of the world's ten most influential 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: management thinkers, and he also happens to be the host 26 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: of one of my favorite podcasts, Work Life, which is 27 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: a TED original podcast. What I loved most about this 28 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: chat with Adam is not only that Adam happens to 29 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: be a walking encyclopedia of psychology findings, but I'd love 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: how he applies these findings in really thoughtful ways to 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 2: his own life to be more productive. So on that note, 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: over to Adam to find out about how he works. 33 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to the. 34 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: Show, Thanks Amantha. 35 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: Now people talk about being productive, but I don't think 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: I've ever met anyone on your level. So your books 37 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: have sold over a million copies, your TED talks have 38 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: been viewed over twelve million times, You've written a huge 39 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: number of academic papers in well established and very well 40 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: respected journals, and you've been Wharton's top rated professor for 41 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: the last seven years. And then, if that wasn't enough, 42 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: you somehow managed to be a junior Olympic springboard diver 43 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: and a professional magician. And when I learned all this 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: about you, I thought, well, you know, if you were 45 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: seventy years old, that would be incredibly impressive. But you've 46 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: actually packed this all into thirty six years, and so 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: I've got a ton of questions on how on earth 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: you made that all happen. 49 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: Well, that's very kind of you. 50 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't feel very productive on most days, so this 51 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: is this is going to be one of those one 52 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: of those conversations where I have no idea how to 53 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: answer some of the questions you're going to ask, but 54 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: I'll do my best. 55 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful, Well, why don't we start with the morning. 56 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: I'm really keen to know what does a typical morning 57 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: look like for you, if there is such a thing, 58 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: and what are the critical ingredients in your morning that 59 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 2: help set you up for a good day. 60 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's changed a lot since we had kids. 61 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: I would say before kids, I would basically wake up 62 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: in the morning and sit down at my computer and 63 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: work until I ran out of ideas. And you know, 64 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: sometimes that would mean I sat for four or five hours. 65 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes I would work until late at night, and you know, 66 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: obviously I'd get up to eat and stuff like that. 67 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: But I really liked just waking up and digging right 68 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: into a project and then being laser focused on it 69 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: for as long as I could. And once we had kids, obviously, 70 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: I decided I was going to change my schedule, and 71 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: so now it's much more of I wake up in 72 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: the morning, we have family time, our kids go off 73 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: to school, and then once our kids leave, I start 74 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: working and my goal is to finish when our kids 75 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: get home and then not work again until after their 76 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: sleep at night. 77 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: Wow, that sounds incredibly well balanced, and I can definitely 78 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: relate to just the schedule changing. You become a parent, 79 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: everything changes, And I'm curious, like when you sit down 80 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: at your computer when the kids are off for the day, like, 81 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: what are the first few things that you do to 82 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: get into to that zone. 83 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: I think that in an ideal world, what I do 84 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: is I actually spend a little time the night before. 85 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: If I'm going to work on something creative the next morning, 86 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: the night before, I'll spend a few minutes just kind 87 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: of mapping out a few ideas, and then when I 88 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: wake up, I find that I processed some of them 89 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, whatever version of subconscious 90 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: thought you believe in, and then I feel like I 91 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: can just hit the ground running. 92 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 2: That's awesome. So you're kind of sleeping on the problem, 93 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: so to speak. 94 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. 95 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if it hurts the quality of my sleep, 96 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: but it definitely helps the quality of my work. 97 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: That's excellent. I love it. I love it. And on 98 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: the topic of academic work, I was really intrigued when 99 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: I read Callen Newport's deep work about how you batch 100 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: your teaching work in the fall semester and research work 101 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,799 Speaker 2: in the spring and summer semesters. And firstly, I'm curious, 102 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: is that still accurate? Is that still what you do? 103 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: It is? 104 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I've always taught in the fall, and I 105 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: just I feel like teaching is an immersive experience where, 106 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, I want to I want to spend time 107 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: in the classroom getting to know my students, figuring out 108 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: what kinds of questions they have. You know, every year 109 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: I redesigned twenty percent of the course. I'd like to 110 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: redesign more, but I don't want to subject the students 111 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: to the terrible ideas that I've had every year. And 112 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: so I figure, if eighty percent stay is constant. Then 113 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: you know, there's there at least some major elements that 114 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: are tried and true that have gone reasonably well. But 115 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, and then I just spend a lot of 116 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: time answering emails, you know, doing meetings and office hours, 117 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: and I didn't I didn't want to have anything distract 118 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: from that work wise, and so you know, then I thought, Okay, well, 119 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a semester that's that's teaching focused, 120 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: and then I'll have January through July every year to 121 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: work on research and ideas and some of the other 122 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: things that I've brought into my job. And it's been 123 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: a nice balance in part because like, right now it's 124 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: basically June, and I can't wait to get back in 125 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: the classroom, right I haven't been since December, and I'm like, 126 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: why am I not teaching? It's the most energizing part 127 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: of my job. And you know, in December, I was 128 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: really eager. I had a whole bunch of ideas that 129 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: I wanted to develop, and I was excited to have 130 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: more free time to work on them. And so I 131 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: feel like I get to alternate between two different jobs 132 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: that I love. 133 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: That's fantastic. I love that and was that something that 134 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: you did write from the stat of your academic career. 135 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty common here in the States, at 136 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: least in business schools. I would say, so, I've done 137 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: it from day one. I always wanted to teach in 138 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: the fall because I remembered the excitement of going back 139 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: to school and how I couldn't wait to learn. And then, 140 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, always feeling like in the spring semester, I 141 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: was like, I'm ready for the summer to come around. So, 142 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: you know, I felt I felt like it was it 143 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: was the right time to really reach students and connect 144 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: with them. 145 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: And I I just, I guess. 146 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: From from the very beginning, I felt like I needed 147 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: protected time to get research done, and I also needed 148 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: some boundaries to make sure that that didn't spill into 149 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: everything that I wanted to do in the classroom and 150 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: the relationships I wanted to build with students. And so 151 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: I guess, uh, yeah, I've I've never known it any 152 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: other way. I've studiously avoided teaching in the spring or 153 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: in the non fall, I should say, although I've occasionally 154 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: done a week or so in the spring, but that's 155 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: that's about it. 156 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: Oh wow, fantastic and I'm also heard with emails. Is 157 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: it true that sometimes you will go a few days 158 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: without checking emails? No good to clarify that. What I 159 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: have heard about your your inbox is that you frame 160 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: up the task of like, you know, waiting, like going 161 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: through an inbox with let's say three hundred emails in it, 162 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: which I'm sure is a daily occurrence for you in 163 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: a really interesting way. Can you talk about how you 164 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: think about inbox checking. 165 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: Well, let me first say that email used to be 166 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: one of my favorite things. I remember in nineteen ninety 167 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: I sent my first email. I think it was either 168 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: nine or ten, and it was to a cousin in 169 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: Colorado and it took about forty eight hours. 170 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, I mean it was. 171 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: It was one of those defining moments where I could 172 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: not believe that I could type something on the computer 173 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: it was just a sentence or two, and that it would, 174 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, somehow travel halfway across the country. And so 175 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: I just loved email, and I thought it was I 176 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: guess it appealed to this. I guess I'm really into 177 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: efficiency and it bothers me when something is inefficient, and 178 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: so I love the fact that with email, I could 179 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: I could reach multiple people at once, and I could 180 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, respond to multiple people quickly as opposed to 181 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: having separate phone conversations with each of them all the time. 182 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: And slowly, as I went through college and moved into 183 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: grad school, I started to hate email and I wondered 184 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: what happened. And what happened was I started getting too 185 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: much of it. And you know, there's a curse. I'm 186 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: sure you've experienced this as well, that the more responsive 187 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: you are, the more email you get. Oh yes, and 188 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: so yeah, but I but I didn't. I didn't realize 189 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: it at first. So, you know, it's really important to 190 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: me to get back to people, and so often I 191 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: think I went a couple of years where my average 192 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: average email response time, you know, between morning and evening 193 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: was was just a few minutes max. And you know, 194 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: I took real I took pride in that it was 195 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: it was part of being there for for people, right 196 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: And you know what I didn't what I didn't quite 197 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: realize at the time was Okay, I'm incentivizing these people 198 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: to send me more emails. 199 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 3: This is this is reinforcement. 200 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: And so you know that then the number of people 201 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: you'd know goes up, and so I just I just 202 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: ended up with with more emails than I could get 203 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: to in a day. And so I found myself, you know, 204 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: especially if I was if I was working on a 205 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: big project, you know, it would be nighttime and I'd 206 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: have hundreds of emails accumulating, and I felt like I 207 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: couldn't keep up. And so the way that I motivated 208 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: myself was I said, look, this is something I've studied 209 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: in my research, and when a task is unpleasant, like 210 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, trying to clear out three hundred emails, I'm 211 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: not going to motivate myself by thinking about the benefits 212 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: to me, because if I thought the activity was beneficial 213 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: to me, I. 214 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 3: Would already be motivated to do it. 215 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: The only way to motivate myself is to ask myself, Okay, 216 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: what good is this going to do for the people 217 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: that I'm answering? And so I actually started going through 218 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: my inbox and sorting by where I could have the 219 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: most impact. And so it wasn't you know who emailed 220 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: me first. It wasn't necessarily you know who I knew best. 221 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: It was where could I add the most value? And 222 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: as I answered a few of those emails, I started 223 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: to get a rhythm, and I started to feel like, 224 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: all right, you know what, this is kind of annoying 225 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: in you know, and aggreate, but I also feel like 226 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm doing something useful here, and then you know that 227 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: that would give me the energy I needed to sort 228 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: of finish the task and get my inbox cleaned. 229 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: That that is so cool. I'm completely going to change 230 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: how I look at email after hearing that. I love that. 231 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if you should, actually, you know, Amantha, 232 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: I think I think it's a risky idea because you 233 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: don't want to convince yourself to like email, because then 234 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: you'll just spend all day every day doing email. 235 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 3: I think you just want to make it bearable. 236 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well that's a good anim making email bearable. 237 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: I love that. And I guess like where where email 238 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: can be quite troublesome for a lot of people is 239 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: where they've got the inbox open all day and they've 240 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: got notifications popping up, and they're just kind of doing, 241 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: you know, the just check of the email. And you 242 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: seem to be someone who is really good at at 243 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: fighting off those digital distractions and just staying focused. And 244 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: I'm wondering like, how do you do that? What are 245 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: your tricks for not being tempted by the various digital 246 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: distractions that are out there? 247 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. 248 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: I think I've been really intrigued by the science of 249 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: self control here, because if you study self control, one 250 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: of the things you will see in the data is 251 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: that people with high self control actually exercise it less. 252 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: So if you have really great willpower, you use less willpower. 253 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: And it sounds like a paradox, but the reason for 254 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: that is anyone who has good self control recognizes that 255 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: it's easier to prevent yourself from getting into a situation 256 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: where you have to manage an impulse than it is 257 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: to manage the impulse in the moment. 258 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: You know. 259 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of saying, all right, I should probably 260 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: set an alarm clock and then put it halfway across 261 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: the room so that when I wake up in the morning, 262 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: I am not tempted to just hit this news button. 263 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: And that's a habit that I think you can carry 264 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: throughout your day. And so, you know, I think they're 265 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: extreme versions of this that I actually don't endorse. I 266 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: guess you could go cold turkey and say, all right, 267 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna turn off all notifications, I'm not 268 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: going to check any technology. I'm going to disconnect myself 269 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: from the internet whatever I need to do. And I 270 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: actually find some of those distractions to be useful mini breaks. 271 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: So you know, when I'm stuck on an idea or 272 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: a sentence when I'm writing, I'll actually go over to 273 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: Twitter and check it for you know, a minute or two. 274 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: But I limit myself on a clock, and I also 275 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: usually have goals for how much I have to finish 276 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: before I'm allowed to go over and check, and so 277 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: that that that kind of helps, and so you know, 278 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a simple thing, right saying all right, I'm 279 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: going to aim to use social media five to ten 280 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: minutes a day when I can't be doing anything else. 281 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: So you know, I will do it when when I'm 282 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: sitting on a flight waiting for it to take off, 283 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: or you know, i'll be on it when I am. 284 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: I actually end up doing it quite a bit in 285 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, in like a lift or an uber a taxi, 286 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: and you know, otherwise I'll just I'll use it as 287 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: a small reward for making progress on the things that 288 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: I think are important. 289 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: I like that, so it's a reward. And then you 290 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: said that you set the clock, because where I can 291 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: imagine people coming undone is that they go great. Adams 292 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: told me to reward myself with Facebook. I'm going to 293 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: pop on and then two hours later, hang on what 294 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: task was I working on? Like? How does that work? Like? 295 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: Are you setting a really noisy stopwatch? Do you like? 296 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: Noo? 297 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: How does that work? 298 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: No? 299 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: I just have a time in mind, so you know, 300 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: if it's if it's seven fifty six, I'll say, all right, 301 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: I've got four minutes, and then at eight o'clock I'm 302 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: gonna get back to work. And if I fall short 303 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: on that, I'm disappointing myself and I start feeling guilty 304 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: and that's not pleasant. So next time, I'm like, I 305 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: don't want to feel that way again. 306 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: Let me just stay on task. Yeah, you know, I. 307 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: Will also say, though, I feel like, if you know, 308 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: if the urge to spend hour scrolling through Facebook is 309 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: dragging you away from your work, then your work isn't 310 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: motivating enough. 311 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: You know. 312 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: I feel like I actually feel the opposite of impulse 313 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: if if I'm scrolling through Facebook, I'm. 314 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: Like, ah, but I have this really exciting work to do. 315 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 3: I want to get back to that. 316 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: And you know, I obviously don't think it's practical for 317 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: every single moment of every single day to be that 318 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: intrinsically motivating, but I think to you know, to have 319 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: an enjoyable and meaningful work life, it's it's probably worth asking, you, 320 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: know that desire you feel to engage with whatever your 321 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: guilty distraction is, how could you actually design your work 322 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: so that it creates that? 323 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's interesting. You bring up intrinsic motivation and 324 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: I was quite intrigued by I think it must be 325 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: one of your latest publications in the Academy of Management Journal, 326 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: where you talk about when people work on a task 327 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: that is intrinsically and deeply motivating, performance on the extrinsically 328 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: motivating task falls. All right, can you talk a bit 329 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: more about what you found it? And I'm personally curious 330 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: how have you applied that to your own life because 331 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: it was such a curious research. 332 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: So, Amantha, you've really done your homework here because this 333 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: was just accepted for publication in the last few weeks. 334 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: So it's i'd say it's hot off the presses, but 335 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: it's not even on the presses, it's impress So. 336 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: This is a This is a series of studies that 337 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: g Shin. 338 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: Led and we we started off with this idea that 339 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: it's assumed to be a good thing to have intrinsic motivation, 340 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: but we all have a range of projects and tasks 341 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: that make up our jobs, and nobody's really ever thought 342 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: about or studied the spillover effects. And we wondered, if 343 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: there's a dark side of working on an intrinsically motivating task, 344 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: that it could make your boring tasks even more dull 345 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: in you know, in juxtaposition, and that's basically what we found. 346 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: So in one of the studies, Gay gathered data from 347 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: a Korean company and it turned out that the more 348 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: or you have one task in your portfolio of five 349 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: or six that's off the charts and intrinsic motivation, the 350 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: more your performance suffers on your less interesting tasks. And 351 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: then we designed an experiment which was really fun. We 352 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: had people search for YouTube videos as the first task, 353 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: and so the interesting version was to find the most 354 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: fascinating videos on YouTube and then write about what made 355 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: them so interesting. There was there was kind of a 356 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: medium interest condition where you had to search for life 357 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: hack videos and you know, and just summarize what you know, 358 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: what the practical insights were there. And then in the 359 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: boring condition, we had people watch videos of paint dry, 360 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: so you actually had to sit there and watch paint drying, 361 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: and we had people we had people describe them so 362 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: that we could check to make sure they were actually 363 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: watching them. And so then you've just done an interesting 364 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: or boring task or one somewhere in between. And then 365 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: in a second task, we had you either play a 366 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: really fun computer game or copy numbers from a phone book. 367 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: And it turned out that people who had watched the 368 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: fascinating YouTube videos actually made more mistakes and performed worse 369 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: on the copying task. 370 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: That's it's so interesting, Like what I was really curious 371 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 2: about because I was reading that research and reflecting on 372 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: how would I apply that in my own life, and 373 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: I felt quite sort of challenged to go, well, how 374 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: do I do that? And I was curious, like I 375 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: would imagine that when you find these things in your 376 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: research studies, you reflect on your own life and think 377 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: about how can you integrate that? So I'm curious if 378 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: you found a way to integrate this into your own 379 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 2: life and if. 380 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: So, what is that? Yeah, I have Actually, I think 381 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: about it a little bit like athletes who taper before 382 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: a big competition. So you know, if you're a runner 383 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: or a swimmer or a weightlifter, you're not supposed to 384 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: do a max like a max intensity workout in the 385 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: few days before your big competition. So you know, runners, 386 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: if they're training for a marathon and the you know, 387 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: in the few days before, they won't do a really 388 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: long run, or same for a swimmer or a weightlifter 389 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: won't lift quite as heavy, and the idea is that 390 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: they're they're kind of tapering down to have maximum strength. 391 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: I think that there's I don't know if the analogy 392 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: holds perfectly, but I've started to think about the sequencing 393 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: of tasks in my days as involving some tapering. So 394 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: I used to think that I should put interesting tasks 395 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: and boring tasks back to back, and that as I'm 396 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: working on something that I find just just endlessly intriguing, 397 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: right after that, I should do my most dull task 398 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: of the day, because then I'll have some energy to 399 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: carry over. And when our data show is that's false. 400 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: Instead of energy carrying over, there's just this awful contrast 401 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: where you're like, Wow, this was horrible before and now 402 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: it's going to crush my soul. 403 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: How can I possibly do this? I? 404 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: How do I just spend more time working on this 405 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: fun task instead? And what's interesting is that if this 406 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: is all assuming that you care about your performance and 407 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: the boring task right that you know it's it's it 408 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: may be dull, but it's important or it matters in 409 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: some way. If you don't want your performance to suffer 410 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: in that task, then what you want to do is 411 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: sandwich a medium task in between, and so you taper 412 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: down from interesting to moderately. 413 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: Interesting to boring. 414 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: And if you work on a moderately interesting task that's 415 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: kind of okay before the boring task, it's not so 416 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: different to create that contrast, and so the boring task 417 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: doesn't suffer. 418 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 3: Instead, you actually do have a little bit in an. 419 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: Energy that seems to carry over and it boosts your 420 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: performance on the boring task. And so now I think 421 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: about these kind of little trios of tasks where I 422 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: start out, I go interesting, you know, okay, boring, and 423 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 1: then I go back to the interesting task. And what 424 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: I love about that is that helps power me through 425 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: the boring task because I've got something really exciting to 426 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: look forward to when I finish. 427 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: That's really cool. I love that idea of tapering. I 428 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: feel like I can definitely definitely apply that in my 429 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: own life. That's very cool. One thing I was very 430 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: curious about is that something you're very well known for 431 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 2: is being such a generous giver, and so much of 432 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 2: your research has focused on essentially the power of giving. 433 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 2: And on the other hand, I read so much in 434 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: the productivity space about the importance of saying no and 435 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: the power of saying no, and I was curious, how 436 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: do you balance that? Because I can't even begin to 437 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 2: imagine how many people are requesting your time, and I 438 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: know that you are very much a yes person, and 439 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 2: how do you balance that? How do you know when 440 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: to say yes versus saying no? 441 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: Oh? I don't know. 442 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm struggling through this the same way 443 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: that everyone else is. I'll tell you what has been 444 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: most helpful to me, though, I think you know, I 445 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: used to try to say yes to everyone and to everything, 446 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: and I just found that that was impossible, as you know, 447 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: as I got busier, as my profile, you know, I 448 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: guess got raised outside the Ivory Tower. I just didn't 449 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: have enough hours in the day to field all the 450 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: requests that were coming in, and so I ended up 451 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: coming out with a bunch of heuristics more or less 452 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: mirrored what I've studied when I've when I've looked at 453 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: the differences between you know, people who are what I've 454 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: called successful givers who are productively generous, and failed givers 455 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: who are too selfless and end up burning out or 456 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: getting burned by the takers who have they have the 457 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: misfortune of dealing with. Uh. There there are few kinds 458 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: of choices that really matter. The first one is to 459 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: be thoughtful about who you help. And so for me, 460 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: that's That's meant that I have a hierarchy of people 461 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: that I'm trying to support, and it's family first, students second, 462 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: colleagues third, everyone else fourth. And at some point I 463 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: realized that friends were not in that list, and I 464 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: felt really bad about it. But then I realized, you 465 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: know what, I actually my goal in a friendship is 466 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: not to be you know, helping the person. 467 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: It's to be, you know, to be a friend. 468 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: And that may involve lots of different things, and you know, 469 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: I'll fit them in wherever, but uh, the other the 470 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: other categories. It was it was important for me to 471 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: be clear because when a request comes in, I know 472 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be equally generous to everyone. 473 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: And so I had to realize, you know what, I'm 474 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: okay with the fact that my colleagues may well think 475 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: that I'm less generous than my students do, because I 476 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: just did not become a professor to try to inspire 477 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: other professors, right. I became a professor because I wanted 478 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: to have an impact on students the same way that 479 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: you know that I was really influenced by, you know, 480 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: by the the great teachers that I had had, and 481 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to try to pay that forward. And so, 482 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: you know, when when a request comes in, I just 483 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: kind of go through that list, and it depends on 484 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: how much I have in the day. And it was 485 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: so important to put family first there because you know, 486 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: it's easy to say, well, you know, there's you know, 487 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: there are lots of requests that come in workwise that 488 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: are urgent, and you know, you you also are able 489 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: to gain status and build connections by helping people, and 490 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: you know that some of the family stuff is sometimes 491 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: less exciting if you're changing the diapers, for example. But 492 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, when when I took a step back and 493 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: I thought about my values, that it was most important 494 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: to me to be, you know, to be showing up 495 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: for my family first and foremost, so that I found 496 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: really helpful. And then the other choices are about how 497 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: you help and when you help, and you know that 498 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: basically breaks down to saying, look, I want to help 499 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: when I can add unique value and when it does 500 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: not detract from my energy or my ability to get 501 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: my own work done. And so what I tried to 502 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: do was break down all the different ways that I 503 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: was trying to say yes to people and figure out 504 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: which ones I enjoyed and excelled at. And you know, 505 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: if people were asking for help in domains where I 506 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: didn't feel like I had a unique contribution to make 507 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: or it was exhausting me, I knew that over time 508 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: that meant I was going to have less impact. And 509 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: so for me, that's been kind of zooming in on 510 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: two things. One is knowledge sharing. There's almost nothing that 511 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: brightens my inbox more than somebody reaching out and saying, yeah, 512 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: I had this question about you know, something related to 513 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: work psychology like, has anybody ever studied fill in the blank? 514 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: And I'm like, yes, there's a chance to take all 515 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: that esoteric information that I'm collecting from academic journals and 516 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: share it with somebody who might be curious about it 517 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: or who can apply it in some way, And so 518 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: that that's always a treat. And I feel like there 519 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: aren't that many people who you know, kind of who 520 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: where that's the way that they help. And then the 521 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: other is I really love making introductions, provided that they're 522 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: mutually beneficial. And so you know, I feel like I 523 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: by virtue of the kind of work that I do, 524 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: I get to interact with lots of different industries and 525 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: kinds of people, and it's just really fun to connect 526 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: the dots between two people who could help each other 527 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: and or who could create something really meaningful together. And 528 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: so I've tried to focus on those requests. And that 529 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: means that when somebody reaches out and it's not in 530 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: one of those buckets, I'll let them know that, you know, 531 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: their request is not in my wheelhouse, but if I 532 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: could be helpful by sharing knowledge or by making an introduction, 533 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: then you know, I'd be happy to do that. 534 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: And on that I'm very encouraged to hear that you 535 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: do indeed SAYNRD and how like, how do you I know, politely? 536 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: Do you do you have like a go to no strategy? 537 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 3: I have a few of them. Let's let's try them out. 538 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: Make a request, So, Adam, I'm gonna be in the 539 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: US in a couple of months time. Can I stay 540 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: with you for a week? 541 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 3: No? 542 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: No, There are a couple of different ways I would 543 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: answer that. So the first one is, you know Aman 544 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: that I would love to see you when you're in 545 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: the US. I try not to impose people on my 546 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: family life, and in particular, my wife is a segmentor 547 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: and an introvert, and she really it's important for her 548 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: to have boundaries and she doesn't like the blurring between 549 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: work and home. And so you know, I learned a 550 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: long time ago that it wasn't fair to her to 551 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: just invite people that are total strangers to her into 552 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: our home. So as much as I would love to 553 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: have you, I can recommend some great hotels. 554 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: That's great. So you're giving a very clear and detailed 555 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: Russian behind the noor. 556 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, I don't I don't feel like 557 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: I actually have an obligation to do that. If somebody 558 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: has the goal to ask something that's unreasonable, then I 559 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: can be perfectly unreasonable back. But I still prefer to 560 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: err on the side of politeness. You know another thing 561 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: I might say, though, which is, you know, it's not 562 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: that often that somebody would just ask out of the blue, 563 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: can you stay with me? 564 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 3: But I do get a lot. 565 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: Of you know, well, hey, I'm going to be coming through. 566 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 3: Philly, can we meet up? 567 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: And you know, my standard answer to that is, actually, 568 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: when I'm in Philly, my time belongs to my family 569 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: and my students, and you know those those are my 570 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: two priorities. 571 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 3: And so you know, the only ways that the only way. 572 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: That I can really protect my time and show up 573 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: for the people that I've made a commitment to supporting 574 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: is to set that boundary. 575 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: And I really hope you understand nice. 576 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 2: That sounds very polite and reasonable. I like that. Before 577 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: we move on to rapid fire questions, there was one 578 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: other thing that I wanted to ask you about, and 579 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this is still true, but I'd 580 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: read that there's a certain way that you start every 581 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: week where you think about what you want to accomplish 582 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: and how you want to help, and then that kind 583 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: of becomes your compass for the week. Is that still 584 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: something that you do and if so, could you maybe 585 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: elaborate on what that looks like. 586 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 3: Sure? 587 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: So I started doing this when I realized that I'm 588 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, I think about personality in terms 589 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: of we all have lots of traits, but are the 590 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: traits we expressed in any given moment. I think that's 591 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: often governed by our dominant trade, the trade we're most 592 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: extreme on, and my dominant trade is probably being goal oriented. 593 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: If you give me a goal, I just get tunnel 594 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: vision and the only thing I can see or think 595 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: of is that goal. And so I wanted to I 596 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: wanted to improve my peripheral vision. I wanted to make 597 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: sure that I lose sight of my priorities. And I 598 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: saw that going both ways. Sometimes you know, I'd get 599 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: totally focused on a work goal, and you know, I'd 600 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: miss out on some ways that I really wanted to 601 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: be responsive to other people. And then on the flip side, right, 602 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: I'd get totally immersed in helping somebody, and you know, 603 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: a work task would fall off my plate. And so 604 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that those those two things, 605 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, achieving my own goals and then helping other 606 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: people that they stayed on my radar. And so what 607 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: I what I like to do is I like to 608 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: start a week by asking myself, what are three things 609 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: I want to accomplish and what are three people that 610 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: I want to help or three ways I want to 611 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: be helpful? And then you know, I just kind of 612 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: do an informal check in on a daily basis to 613 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: ask am I making progress toward those goals? And I 614 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: think it keeps me from getting stuck in the weeds 615 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: of the one goal that's happening to loom large at 616 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: the moment, and it forces me to make sure that 617 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: I've got my priorities in order. 618 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: Hmmm, I like that. Can you give me an example 619 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: of maybe what what one thing that you're trying to 620 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: accomplish this week has been and one way that you 621 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: are trying to help a person or something this week? 622 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: To give an example. 623 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: Sure, So this week my big work goal was finishing 624 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: up a draft of an audiobook that I'm releasing later 625 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: this summer, which is called Power Moves It. It's been 626 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: a really interesting project. It's a collaboration with audible where 627 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: they said, look, we know you're going to be going 628 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: to the World Economic Forum in Davos in January, and 629 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: we're wondering if you want to do an audiobook around 630 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: a theme about the lessons and you can interview a 631 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 1: bunch of people and add in your own analysis. And 632 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: so ended up doing about two dozen interviews in Davos 633 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: with all sorts of interesting leaders and thinkers, and it 634 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: was around the theme of power, asking how it's changing 635 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: and how we can use it for good and so 636 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, I've been working on that since then, and 637 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: my goal for this week was to finish a complete 638 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: draft so we're ready to record soon. And then, in 639 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: terms of being helpful on a professional front, a big 640 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: goal for the week was to help one of our 641 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: doctoral students get a paper out for publication. And so 642 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: I read it, I gave comments. Then we strategized about 643 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: which journals to submit it to you and how a 644 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: best frame it to make a contribution. And you know, 645 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: I had kind of I had both of those actually 646 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: on a to do list, and I was just checking 647 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: out by myself over the last couple of days. 648 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: Awesome, I love it, Love those examples. Now onto the 649 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 2: sort of the rapid fire finish for the show. So 650 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 2: a large part of staying focus fit is tuning into 651 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 2: useful and insightful stimulus and tuning out the rest because 652 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 2: there's so much of that. And so to finish off, 653 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: I've got a few quick questions for you on this topic. 654 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: To start with, what podcasts are you currently listening to 655 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: and loving? 656 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: Oh? 657 00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: I love Invisibilia on NPR. I think it's it's a 658 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: show about all the hidden forces that shape behavior, and 659 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: I just think it's it's mind bending, is a good 660 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: way to describe it. My favorite episodes were How to 661 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: Become Batman and Flip the Script, and then I'm also 662 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: a big fan of Revisionist History with Malcolm Gladwell. 663 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: Oh that's so good, isn't it? 664 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: Yes? 665 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: Awesome. What is it a newsletter that you subscribe to 666 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: and actually look forward to reading? Oh? 667 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: I have a lot of favorite newsletters, but one of 668 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: the ones that I get the most out of is 669 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: Dan Pink's Every Other Week. 670 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: I love that one too. That's such a good one. Yes, Now, 671 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: what is a great book that you've read recently? 672 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: Actually just read two outstanding books that were both released 673 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: in the fall. One was Joyful by Ingrid feateel Lee, 674 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: and the other was rule Makers rule Breakers by Michelle 675 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: gelfand Fantastic. 676 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: I'm gonna check those ones out. And finally, what's your 677 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: favorite research study into productivity and what did it reveal? Oh? 678 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: There's so many. Do I really have to choose one? 679 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: Yes? 680 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: Oh that is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't know 681 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: that I can choose a favorite, but I'll tell you. Actually, 682 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: the most interesting one that I read this week when 683 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: I was procrastinating on some writing, I read this study 684 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: out of Ohio State University, which really bothered me because 685 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: the arrival of my Michigan Wolverines, but I'll try to 686 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 1: get over that. And it was actually a series of 687 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: I think eight studies which showed that when you have 688 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: a meeting coming up in an hour or two, you 689 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: use the time in between much less productively. And so 690 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: in one of their studies, when people knew they had 691 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: a meeting on their calendar, they use the time between 692 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: now and then to get twenty two percent less work 693 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: done than they would have if they had taken that. 694 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 3: Off their calendar. 695 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: Wow, and you know that it's obviously a mistake, right, 696 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: We waste a lot of time. You're just saying, well, 697 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: there's no point in starting that because I have a 698 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: meeting in six hours. 699 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: How could I ever make any progress between now and then? 700 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: And I think you know, one. 701 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: Takeaway from me on that is it's reinforcement for something 702 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: I've done for a long time, which is stacking meetings 703 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,919 Speaker 1: more or less back to back on a meeting day, 704 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: so you know, on a teaching day, what I'll do 705 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 1: is I'll hold all my office hours back to back. 706 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 3: And I learned that. 707 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: I needed a little buffer so that, you know, maybe 708 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: five minutes between each meeting just to catch up on 709 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: email or in case a meeting round long helped. But 710 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: then I'd have another day with no meetings at all, 711 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: where I could really focus and be productive. And this 712 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: research just kind of reinforce that for me. 713 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: I love that. That's fascinating. Well, thank you so much 714 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: for your time, Adam. I was really looking forward to 715 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: speaking to you, and you did not disappoint. Now, for 716 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: those who want to get more Adam Grant into their lives, 717 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: how can we do that? 718 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but if that's 719 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: what you wanted, I've had a lot of fun doing 720 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: my work Life podcast with the Ted team, and we 721 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: just finished season one and are just starting to think 722 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: about season two. And then I do a newsletter every 723 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: month called Granted, where I share new insights about work 724 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: in psychology and answer reader questions. 725 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: Fantastic and where can we sign up for that? 726 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: Oh, it's just an Adam grant Net. 727 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful, And I got to say, I'm loving your 728 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: work Life podcast and also your e newsletter is one 729 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: of the ones that I look forward to, So I 730 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: I thank you for that. Yes, so, thank you so much, Adam. 731 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: It's been an absolute pleasure. 732 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: Pleasures, Aline, thank you, Amantha. 733 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 2: Hey there, that's it for today's episode. If you're looking 734 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 2: for more tips to improve the way you work, I 735 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: write a short monthly newsletter that contains three cool things 736 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 2: that I've discovered that helped me work better, which range 737 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: from interesting research findings through the gadgets that I'm loving. 738 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot com. 739 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 2: That's how iWork dot co. And you're probably sick of 740 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: podcasts telling you to give them a review in iTunes 741 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: if you like the episode, so I promise I won't 742 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 2: ask you to do that, but you know, if the 743 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: moon strikes you, then go for it. And if you 744 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: like this episode and you want more, just hit the 745 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 2: subscribe button. See you next time.