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Speaker 1: Now look, we know that Parliament's sitting at the moment

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Speaker 1: and the Member for Johnson yesterday put forward a motion

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Speaker 1: in the Parliament calling for the Commonwealth to establish an

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Speaker 1: independent body to have oversight of deaths in custody, deeming

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Speaker 1: it a national shame with Indigenous people overrepresented in their statistics.

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Speaker 1: Miss Davis telling Parliament there's no independent body to investigate

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Speaker 1: deaths in custody and pointed to the recent deaths of

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Speaker 1: Kumenjai Walker and Kumenjai White in the Northern Territory and

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Speaker 1: called on the lack of action in implementing the three

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty nine recommendations of the Royal Commission into

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. Now, Justine wants it taken syrant

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Speaker 1: seriously excuse me, and wants urgent action. She joins me

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Speaker 1: on the line right now, Good morning.

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Speaker 2: Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really good, Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now,

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Speaker 1: what specifically are you calling for to oversee deaths in custody?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so this is actually a real sinful motion, joining

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Speaker 2: or supporting calls from across Australia and from within the

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Speaker 2: Territory to set up a national oversight body to both

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Speaker 2: set minimum standards for average and tourist rata under people

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Speaker 2: in custody and set up a robust process to have

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Speaker 2: independent investigations. Exactly as you just said, this is a crisis.

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Speaker 2: There are more than six hundred average on tourist rat

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Speaker 2: under the people that have died in the care of

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Speaker 2: the state since the Royal Commission findings average and tourists

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Speaker 2: are under people are five times or sometimes six times

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Speaker 2: more likely to die in the terror of the state than

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Speaker 2: a non Aboriginal person. The only difference is that they're Aboriginal,

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Speaker 2: and so we have to do whatever we can to

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Speaker 2: address this. The issue of having independent oversight and having

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Speaker 2: robust processes so that we can make sure that we

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Speaker 2: are doing whatever we can to address it. That's all

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Speaker 2: this motion course of very simple, not asking the territory

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Speaker 2: to do anything different, set up any new processes, put

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Speaker 2: any money into it. Just take some leadership. We are

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Speaker 2: in a unique position here. We know these issues very well.

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Speaker 2: We can take some leadership and say to the Commonwealth

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Speaker 2: you need to step in here and help and help

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Speaker 2: all of Australia. It's certainly not just an issue for

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Speaker 2: the territory to address this issue.

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Speaker 1: Justin we know the coronial in quests are already mandatory

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Speaker 1: for all deaths in custody. Why do you think that

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Speaker 1: doesn't go far enough?

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Speaker 2: An in quest is you're right, the inquest is great,

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Speaker 2: and in quest makes findings, but it doesn't have the

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Speaker 2: power then to do anything with those findings. And it's

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Speaker 2: clear that the systems that we have at the moment

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Speaker 2: are not working because of the so the statistics that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing, and so we need we need to do more,

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Speaker 2: We need to do something different. I heard the Chief

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Speaker 2: mean it's the same relation to another issue, this theory

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Speaker 2: that we have a duty of care to the people

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Speaker 2: in our prisons, and that's exactly right, and if this

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Speaker 2: is what's happening, then we need to be doing whatever

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Speaker 2: we can, as I said, to try and address it.

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Speaker 2: And all across Australia, all the human rights organizations and

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Speaker 2: community have called really clearly that this is something that

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Speaker 2: needs to happen, as I said, not just here in

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Speaker 2: the territory, but across Australia.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the debate, the discussion that happened yesterday,

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Speaker 1: I mean, was there a votion, what happened. Is an

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory government coming to the table on this.

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Speaker 2: No, the CLP government voted against it. There was some

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Speaker 2: confusion I think in the Parliament. Some members of the

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Speaker 2: chambers suggested that calling for independent investigations some of pound

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Speaker 2: men we don't trust police. That's absolutely not the case,

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Speaker 2: complete mischaracterization of what this motion said. In fact, it's

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Speaker 2: really good for police to have robust independent processes. It

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Speaker 2: protects police officers, It provides public confidence, it removes the

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Speaker 2: impossible burden of police investigating their own colleagues in traumatic circumstances.

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Speaker 2: And I've talked to many please who would welcome who

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Speaker 2: would welcome something, So it's certainly not an anti police motion.

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Speaker 2: And that was for anyone who watched the chamber yesterday,

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Speaker 2: you may have seen that that was the CRP response.

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Speaker 2: That's that's not what this motion was about. It it's

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Speaker 2: about making sure that we do whatever we can to

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Speaker 2: address this issue.

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Speaker 1: On that note, Justine, I have got a bit of

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Speaker 1: audio from yesterday Jered Mayley certainly firing up. Take a listen,

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Speaker 1: you made.

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Speaker 3: Speak and I arise and make my contribution in relation

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Speaker 3: to this, But matters bigger before I start. I just

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Speaker 3: want to make it very clear that I am completely

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Speaker 3: disgusted and offended by the words meant for john you

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Speaker 3: spoke about that, please not being trustworthy? My father was

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Speaker 3: a police officer. How dare you say not trustworthy? Madam Speaker,

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Speaker 3: memberph Barkley is a police officer. I know he's offended

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Speaker 3: by your words. Are you going to apologize to him?

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Speaker 3: Are you saying he's not trustworthy? How embarrassing? Members disgusting?

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Speaker 2: Direct your commentsary me?

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Speaker 3: Please sorry, Madam Speaker, I appreciate you. I'm just getting

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Speaker 3: very fired up that. How dare she call the police untrustworthy?

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Speaker 3: The police are the first person to run into danger.

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Speaker 3: They're the first person territorians call when there's a problem.

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Speaker 3: I bet you re Member for Johnson's called the police,

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Speaker 3: I'll better be one of her friends is called the police.

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Speaker 3: And yet she stands here and says they're not trustworthy.

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Speaker 3: And now she used the words police agents of injustice.

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Speaker 1: Justine, do you believe the police are trustworthy or did

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Speaker 1: you say yesterday that they are not trustworthy?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I absolutely did not. I explicitly did not say that.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I welcome people to go and have a

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Speaker 2: look at handstard, that was a red herring in relationship debate.

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Speaker 2: It's not about what the issue was actually about. And

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the other thing to say is,

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Speaker 2: I think if people here that way of being spoken

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Speaker 2: to in your workplace, that is not appropriate behavior. That's

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Speaker 2: not what this issue is about. But just hearing that again,

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Speaker 2: that level of aggression shouted at someone in their workplace

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Speaker 2: is not something that we should be accepting in parliament.

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Speaker 2: This should be we should be having in the highest

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Speaker 2: standards of behavior. However, people feel personally about an issue,

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Speaker 2: and to be attacked like that in parliament, and I'm

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Speaker 2: certainly not the only person that has happened to do

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Speaker 2: does not in any way set the standard that I

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Speaker 2: think we should be expecting.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm not a fan of the yelling and some

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Speaker 1: of the carry on that we have in parliament, but

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Speaker 1: I do want to ask, did you refer to the

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Speaker 1: police as agents of injustice?

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Speaker 2: I read out a quote from the National Human Rights

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Speaker 2: Commissioner where he said something I can I can pull

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Speaker 2: up the exact quote, but I did not say that myself.

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Speaker 1: No, I guess I guess the concern is that that

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Speaker 1: some may be worried after hearing that and after that

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Speaker 1: part of Jurram Bailey's speech, and I specifically wanted to

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Speaker 1: hear hear what he had to say because I was

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Speaker 1: interested in the fact that he was yelling, you know,

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Speaker 1: and firing up in that way. But I guess people

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Speaker 1: are going to want to know whether you know whether

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Speaker 1: you do have trust in the police, or you know

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Speaker 1: why that reference of agents of injustice was used.

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Speaker 2: So the quote which I quoted in my speech was

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Speaker 2: from the Human Rights Commission President where he said, and

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Speaker 2: I can I can read out the quote and if

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Speaker 2: you want. Since colonization, Australian law has too often delivered injustice.

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Speaker 2: The first nations people police have often been the agents

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Speaker 2: of this injustice, helping to administer laws and policies like

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Speaker 2: those that enable to stolen generations. When police investigate themselves,

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Speaker 2: it breeds mistrusts and increases the risks of poor investigations

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Speaker 2: and lack of accountability. So that's a quote from our

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Speaker 2: National Human Rights Commissioner. I said very explicitly when I

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Speaker 2: spoke yesterday that this is not about individual police. It's

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Speaker 2: not about me trusting the police. I completely agree that

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Speaker 2: the police do an incredible job here. Exactly is that?

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Speaker 2: Exactly is thereby is that I have an uncle who's

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Speaker 2: a police officer. I have a brother now who's a

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Speaker 2: police officer. You know, across the territory. We are all,

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Speaker 2: you know, deeply connected. We rely on our police. This

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Speaker 2: is not about attacking the police. It's that that's a

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Speaker 2: total distraction from what this motion was actually about.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the motion. So where too from here?

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Speaker 1: Because I guess if we're in a situation now where

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Speaker 1: you've put this forward, you know it has gone to

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Speaker 1: a vote, they've voted it down. Where to from here?

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Speaker 1: Do you think justin.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think I know that there is a

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Speaker 2: lot of work being done at a national level about this,

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Speaker 2: and so that's something that you know, I think there,

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Speaker 2: I know there are people here in the territory are

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Speaker 2: the keem to support that. I think that we need

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Speaker 2: to do, as I said, whatever we can to make

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Speaker 2: sure that everyone who is in the care of the

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Speaker 2: state we are responsible for them. We need to do

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Speaker 2: whatever we can to address that. And at the moment

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Speaker 2: that there are gaps in that, you know, in many

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Speaker 2: areas across our correctionism as we know, so I mean

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Speaker 2: in terms of this particular issue. It's something that I

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Speaker 2: will be continuing to have conversations on because it's something

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Speaker 2: that people have come to me saying this is something

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Speaker 2: that's really important to us.

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Speaker 1: Justine, as you touched on just a moment ago as well.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to the Chief Minister Leafanocchio earlier this week

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Speaker 1: about a letter that was written by the Women's Forum

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Speaker 1: of Australia to all state and territory premiers and Chief

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Speaker 1: Ministers as well as the Prime Minister in relation to

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Speaker 1: male offenders in women's prisons is how it's titled now.

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Speaker 1: When I spoke to the Chief Minister on Monday, I

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Speaker 1: pointed to part of that letter that referred to one

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Speaker 1: instance at least that was reported by The Australian last

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Speaker 1: week in Portagusta and a Portagusta prison where there was

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Speaker 1: a situation where a male and female offenders it accommodates

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Speaker 1: both male female offenders in the prison. Now, a female prisoner,

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Speaker 1: the letter said, was failed in every way imaginable by

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Speaker 1: the state's correctional services. She was placed in a cell

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Speaker 1: with a notoriously violent, trans identified male offender and was

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Speaker 1: subjected to a horrific sexual assault by him, an assault

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Speaker 1: that was not prevented by the fact that he had

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Speaker 1: a full gender reassignment surgery. The Chief Minister responded to

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Speaker 1: that and said that there would not be males going

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Speaker 1: into the female prison here in the Northern Territory. Do

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Speaker 1: you agree with that sentiment.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm really disappointed by the way this happened

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Speaker 2: over the last few days here in the territory, the incident.

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Speaker 2: Everyone deserves to be just as we were talking about,

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Speaker 2: everyone deserves to be safe in prison. Everyone needs to

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Speaker 2: be protected. Whether they're a woman, whether they're a man,

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Speaker 2: whether they're a trans woman, whether they're a historic or

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Speaker 2: whoever they are, they deserve to be safe and protected.

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Speaker 2: The case that the Chief Minister was talking that happened

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Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen interstate is a terrible case. It's not

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Speaker 2: about someone being transgender. It's about violence, and to equate

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Speaker 2: being transgender with being violent is completely misleading. And the

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Speaker 2: other thing to say is that here in the territory

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Speaker 2: there is very clear corrections policy about how people who

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Speaker 2: are transgender need to be looked after in the correction system.

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Speaker 2: I've heard the Chief Ministers say several times in the

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Speaker 2: media and yesterday in Parliament that they changed that policy

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. I've seen the policy in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four. There was a machinery's government change, but there

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Speaker 2: was no operational change. So I'm also curious to know

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Speaker 2: what is the actual policy at the moment in correction,

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Speaker 2: is that being followed. What's the Chief Minister referring to

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Speaker 2: when she says the policy has been changed.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll see if we can get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of that. I mean, should women's rights though be taken

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Speaker 1: away or be hampered in any way to a mad

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Speaker 1: people who identify as women.

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Speaker 2: What I'm not really even clear what that question means, Katie.

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Speaker 2: Of course women need protected. Of course women's rights need

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Speaker 2: to be protected. Trans women's rights need to be protected.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be set up as something that's

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Speaker 2: mutually exclusive. The current policy enables everyone's rights to be protected.

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Speaker 2: And there have been no incidents in Northern Territory prison,

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Speaker 2: no incidents of this nature and in Northern Territory prison.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what the issue is here that

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Speaker 2: seems to be have been blown up into this issue.

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Speaker 2: And I can tell you that there are people in

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Speaker 2: this community who have been very harmed in our community

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Speaker 2: is very harmed by the debate this week, and it's

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Speaker 2: a total invitation to hate speech. I know social media

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Speaker 2: is a dangerous place, but I can tell you generally

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Speaker 2: on my social media when I get comments, they're generally

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Speaker 2: very respectful when people disagree, you know, or have different views.

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Speaker 2: The level of hate speech and vitriol that people have

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Speaker 2: been putting on my social media in relation to this

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Speaker 2: issue is shameful and it doesn't actually do anything about

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Speaker 2: addressing the issue. If the Chief Minister's issue is that

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Speaker 2: women in prison need to be safely protected, then let's

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Speaker 2: talk about that well.

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Speaker 1: Justine Davis, the Independent Member for Johnston, always appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Much happening in Parliament today or anything we should know about?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So today, interestingly, off the back of that, we

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Speaker 2: we'll be debating changes to the Anti Discrimination Act. So

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Speaker 2: there are two main changes that people might remember. That

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Speaker 2: was meant to be debated last in the last sittings,

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Speaker 2: but it was pulled in response to pressure from the

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Speaker 2: Christian lobby saying that they wanted the changes, the proposed

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Speaker 2: amendments to be strengthened. I'm unclear whether there've been any

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Speaker 2: further amendments. I haven't seen that yet. We will see

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Speaker 2: this morning. There are two major changes proposed, so one

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Speaker 2: is basically weakening protection against hate speech, and the other

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Speaker 2: is enabling religious schools to discriminate on the basis of

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Speaker 2: religion when they employ their stuff. So we'll be debating

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Speaker 2: that in Parliament today. As always, I welcome everyone come

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Speaker 2: into Parliament House, if your house, come in and see

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Speaker 2: how things happen here, how laws are made, how your

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Speaker 2: representatives actually represent you. It's an interesting experience.

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Speaker 1: It certainly is. I've watched probably too much Parliament in

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Speaker 1: my time, Justine, hi, but I still try to every day.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. Always appreciated. Thank

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Speaker 1: you you two