1
00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:06,360
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

2
00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:14,320
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers Now. NAPLAN, the

3
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 1: National Assessment Program Literacy and Numeracy test results have been

4
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,920
Speaker 1: published in the last week. Headlines are screaming at us,

5
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 1: telling us that we have reasons to be concerned if

6
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,119
Speaker 1: you are somehow unfamiliar with NAPLAN. It's a series of

7
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 1: standardized tests given to austrained students in years three, five, seven,

8
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,559
Speaker 1: and nine to measure their skills in reading, writing, and

9
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: language conventions like spelling and grammar and punctuation, and also numeracy.

10
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: It aims to provide insights into student achievement informed teaching

11
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: and learning programs across the country. The ABC and Sidney

12
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 1: Morning Herald headlines were nearly identical. They pretty much said,

13
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: I quote, one in three students failing to meet English

14
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: and maths standards napland data shows close quote. Career Mail

15
00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,200
Speaker 1: called it a NAPLAN alarm, and other state based publications

16
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 1: we're also talking about how scary things are, and even

17
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, Anthony Orberanezi called the results quote alarming.

18
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 1: Natasha Bita is a Walkley Award winner for journalism and

19
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 1: the education editor at The Australian and Natasha joins me

20
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 1: to talk Napland on their Happy Families podcast. Now, Natasha,

21
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,120
Speaker 1: before we talk results, walk me through how napland is scored,

22
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 1: because it's changed over the last few years. It used

23
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 1: to be ten bands, now it's four bands. What do

24
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,040
Speaker 1: they mean, hi, Dustin.

25
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 2: They changed it last year after COVID They figured that

26
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 2: was a good time to draw a line under the

27
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,319
Speaker 2: more than ten years of testing and starting new and

28
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 2: so we have a band called Need Additional Support, which

29
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,960
Speaker 2: is the lowest band, and we've got one in ten

30
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,440
Speaker 2: children in that band, so they need remedial help to

31
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 2: catch up. We've got one enforced student who are developing.

32
00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 2: Now developing is just a very polite way of playing

33
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 2: to the expected standards. And then we've got in total,

34
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 2: you know, one in three children follow that level. And

35
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 2: then we've got strong, which is it varies between reading

36
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 2: and mass somewhere between you know, one third and sixty

37
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,720
Speaker 2: percent of students depending on the year and the type

38
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,360
Speaker 2: of chests, and they are meeting the standard. And then

39
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,359
Speaker 2: you've got exceeding the standard. And again that's all over

40
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 2: the place, depending on whether it's mass or numerously or

41
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 2: year nine or year three.

42
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,280
Speaker 1: So when I hear you go through these results and

43
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 1: talk about these bands, one tenth of students just not

44
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,800
Speaker 1: meeting the standard at all. I mean, obviously we don't

45
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,360
Speaker 1: want that, but in a community, in a society as

46
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: big as ours, I don't know that that's something that

47
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,040
Speaker 1: we need to be wringing our hands about or being

48
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,639
Speaker 1: surprised about. Because with there, when there is that bigger population,

49
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: you're going to have a certain group that just can't

50
00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 1: get there. We're going to talk about them shortly interested

51
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,640
Speaker 1: in this quarter or so of kids who are in

52
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 1: that development band. That is the polight way of saying

53
00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,960
Speaker 1: they are just not really where they are supposed to be.

54
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,919
Speaker 1: Why was the media going so crazy about how poorly

55
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: Austrailed students performed Because when I looked at it across

56
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 1: the board, I saw a generally stable story from previous

57
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,359
Speaker 1: years and a generally satisfactory story. We're not we're not

58
00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 1: smashing it out of the park. But it didn't seem

59
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 1: like this was any better or any worse than previous years.

60
00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the problem. It's no, it's not

61
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,520
Speaker 2: getting any better. I've been covering that plan since it

62
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 2: started in two thousand and eight. And I think we

63
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 2: have a real problem in our society because the kids

64
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,600
Speaker 2: who are in those lower bands are most likely to

65
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 2: be disadvantage. So they've got parents who are unemployed, parents

66
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 2: who dropped out of high school themselves. They might have

67
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,080
Speaker 2: learning difficulties, or a lot of those tips of learning

68
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 2: difficulties are exempty tests, so you know, they don't show.

69
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 2: And the other problem is that it doesn't get better

70
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 2: through the years. So if you've got you know, one

71
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 2: of three kids in year three who are struggling with reading,

72
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,640
Speaker 2: they must patch up by the end of primary school,

73
00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 2: otherwise you're pouring them into high school. Let's start in

74
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 2: high school and I haven't mastered reading or masks and

75
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,279
Speaker 2: they're given really complex subjects to do, so then get

76
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,479
Speaker 2: really stressed out, they get really dis engaged, they don't

77
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 2: finish school, or they'll muck up, or they get very anxious.

78
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 2: And I just think that's wrong because when I went

79
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,160
Speaker 2: to school back in the Jurassic Aid, you know, most

80
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,000
Speaker 2: of the kids, we all knew how to read really well,

81
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,720
Speaker 2: and we had a pretty good basic mass and that

82
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 2: gave give you a very good foundation for other learning.

83
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 1: I don't have the data in front of me for

84
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 1: the question I'm going to ask. It's a question without notice,

85
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 1: but I can't remember what the numbers were in the

86
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 1: latest round. But it was an astonishingly astonishingly that might

87
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,120
Speaker 1: be the wrong word I was. I was surprised. So

88
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,480
Speaker 1: I was genuinely surprised about how many kids in Australia

89
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 1: who are in high school actually cannot read.

90
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 2: Well. It's one inn eight boys is starting, you know,

91
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 2: high school in year seven needing remedial reading instructions. Now,

92
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 2: I just think that that's not fair on the kids.

93
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 2: You know. I'm not having to go at kids. I

94
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,960
Speaker 2: just think we need to be helping these children because

95
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 2: something is not working and it's getting worse, and it's

96
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,880
Speaker 2: most likely to affect children with parents who cannot afford tutoring.

97
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,719
Speaker 2: They can't afford to take them to a psychologist, they

98
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 2: can't afford to put them into a private school where

99
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 2: they might have better support for them, and it's.

100
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: Just not a fair go Yeah, Natasha, that you've mentioned

101
00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,840
Speaker 1: a range of reasons that those results might be lower,

102
00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,720
Speaker 1: but there's also a systemic and chronic disadvantage, and there's

103
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 1: also a whole lot of mental health and alcohol and

104
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 1: drug and relationship challenges that are doing that as well.

105
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some areas of the population where

106
00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 1: we see enduring differences. Can you describe those beyond what

107
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 1: we've already discussed.

108
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 2: Well, look, just as an example, if you're an Aboriginal

109
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: u Toorist trade islander, a kid who's fifteen years old

110
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 2: in year nine, on average, you will have the reading

111
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 2: ability of another Australian child who's ten years old in

112
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 2: year five. But that is just totally unfair and totally unacceptable.

113
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 2: And if you're a parent and you've got a university

114
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 2: degree or a professional job that pays well, your kids

115
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,159
Speaker 2: are likely to be two years ahead of children whose

116
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,800
Speaker 2: parents dropped out of high school or don't have a job. Now,

117
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 2: I strongly believe that education is the way that these

118
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 2: children can climb out of disadvantage. But we've just got

119
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,279
Speaker 2: the cycle of disadvantage going on, and for me, it

120
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:48,839
Speaker 2: comes back to literacy.

121
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 1: Kind of prompts an even bigger question. I mean, I

122
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,839
Speaker 1: listen to those those stats and I think if they

123
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 1: weren't Aboriginal kids, if they were Caucasian kids living on

124
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 1: the coast and we saw those numbers, would there would

125
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 1: be just an outcry, It would be completely unacceptable. And

126
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: yet part of me also thinks, to what extent is

127
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 1: this the role of the government and the education system.

128
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 1: There has to be a level of individual responsibility where

129
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:18,120
Speaker 1: parents are contributing and valuing education and telling the kids

130
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: to get to school and supporting them to do that.

131
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 1: Probably a bigger conversation than what we have time for today.

132
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 1: It's just such a complicated and tricky area. I have

133
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 1: a hypothesis though, and I want to get your take

134
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 1: on this. There's a lot of talk about boys specifically

135
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 1: struggling in nap Land, particularly in year nine, and as

136
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: I looked at the data that I was able to attain,

137
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about a lot of boys and

138
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 1: what they were like when I was in year nine, which,

139
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: as you said, back in the I don't know the

140
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: BC age before computers. I wasn't one of them. But

141
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 1: here's what I'd observe. If something wasn't important to them,

142
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: they'd completely sabotage it, so they'd walk the cross country

143
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 1: instead of running it. They'd swim underwater for the whole

144
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 1: lap in the freestyle fifty meter race rather than Swinger properly,

145
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: they would walk out of tests two minutes after they began,

146
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: if they even showed up at all. Is there any evidence, Natasha,

147
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,040
Speaker 1: that nap Land as a test just doesn't feel relevant

148
00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 1: or meaningful or important to our teens and that this

149
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 1: could at least partly explain some of the poor results,

150
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 1: especially when we look at when we look at year

151
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: nine and boys.

152
00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 2: But I think you're making a good point. I'm not

153
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 2: aware of any research in Australia with the Napland test,

154
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 2: but there's an international test called Pieza which is run

155
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: by the OLYCD and they test seven hundred thousand fifteen

156
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 2: year olds across eighty one country I think every three

157
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,960
Speaker 2: or four years, well it might be every five years.

158
00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 2: But they did a study a couple of years ago

159
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 2: because they had the same concerns, and they found that

160
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 2: the fifteen year old boys were far more disengaged in

161
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 2: these tests than the girls and this was leading to

162
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 2: lower results. So that is also a probleise moment. You know,

163
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 2: I don't know boys. I do tend to kick in

164
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,200
Speaker 2: a bit later, I think in terms of their engagement

165
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,960
Speaker 2: with school, not not all of them, but quite a

166
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 2: lot of them. They will be late started, you know,

167
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 2: but until some measurement is done, I really don't know.

168
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, even thinking about what you're saying, in reflecting on

169
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: my experience, I hated school. I was completely disengaged from

170
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: my parents back in the late eighties early nineties were

171
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,839
Speaker 1: spending over ten thousand dollars a year to send me

172
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,840
Speaker 1: to Center Plast Grammar School, and I just I had

173
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 1: no interest in it. And the reason for that was

174
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 1: because I wanted to do other things with my life

175
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 1: and I was able to do those things and then

176
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: went back to school in my late twenties and kind

177
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: of pulled it together academically and educationally. And I often think,

178
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: if kids are that disengaged, is school the best place

179
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 1: for them to me this across the various states, Natasha,

180
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,199
Speaker 1: particularly in low performing states like Queensland, there's a lot

181
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,320
Speaker 1: of anger about how education works. We've even touched on

182
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of that in our DISCUSSI and so

183
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,840
Speaker 1: far as somebody who has been writing on education for

184
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 1: such a long time, now, what are your thoughts. Do

185
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,120
Speaker 1: you believe that that the current educational system in these

186
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,200
Speaker 1: places is failing our children? And if it is, where

187
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 1: are we going wrong?

188
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 2: Look I do. I think it comes back to again,

189
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 2: how we pick children to read. I remember ten years

190
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 2: why I'm so passionate about this. Ten years ago I

191
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 2: would go to a local primary school and help little

192
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,920
Speaker 2: kids learn to read. The kids in grade one and two, right,

193
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,120
Speaker 2: and there was a little girl from a micro background

194
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 2: and we were reading a book and the picture of

195
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 2: a rabbit and the word says rabbit. And when she

196
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,320
Speaker 2: read it, she said bunny. And I said, okay, yeah, look,

197
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,520
Speaker 2: bunny is one word for this word. It's rabbit. Let's

198
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 2: sound out so it starts. Can you see what it

199
00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 2: starts with? It starts with ah. And I started trying

200
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 2: to pick her a fond for medical sounding out of

201
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 2: this word, and the teacher day came running up to me.

202
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 2: I went very much at me and said, you can't

203
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,480
Speaker 2: do that. That's not just let her let her look

204
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 2: at the picture, because it's bad for their self esteem. Now,

205
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 2: I think what is bad which you'll self esteem? It's

206
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 2: going through life not knowing how to read and having

207
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,400
Speaker 2: to guess everything by looking at pictures. And this is

208
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 2: why I'm very angry about it, because I think map

209
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,679
Speaker 2: plan is not measuring success in physics. It is measuring

210
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:27,239
Speaker 2: success in the basics of reading, writing, soling, grammar, punctuations

211
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 2: and mathematics. Right, So if you can't master those in

212
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,200
Speaker 2: primary school, you haven't got much of a hope of

213
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 2: succeeding in high school. I think high schools, increasingly, we're

214
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 2: seeing it a lot in Queensland, are starting the cadence

215
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,640
Speaker 2: or children's different needs. So they've got trade schools. I

216
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 2: think it's fabulous where it's mainly boys. We'll go into

217
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 2: your ten and I'll start learning a trade at school.

218
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 2: Wasn't a fabulous But the thing is they still need

219
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,679
Speaker 2: these basics of literacy and numeracy. You can't be an

220
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 2: electrician if you don't understand mats. You can't be a

221
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,440
Speaker 2: carpenter if you can't measure. These are still basics fits

222
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 2: for everybody. The other thing is well being. You know

223
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,560
Speaker 2: they're late to the party with trying to improve children's

224
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 2: well being. But again my argument is we wouldn't have

225
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 2: so many children in high school struggling and hating school

226
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,359
Speaker 2: if they were taught properly in primary school. Now Queenslane

227
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 2: is still the only state which is giving an old

228
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 2: version of the National curriculum, so you know, governments spent

229
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 2: years trying to fix the curriculum to make it a

230
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,719
Speaker 2: lot simpler and clearer so it would be easier for

231
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,439
Speaker 2: teachers to teach, easier for parents to understand, and Queenslans

232
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 2: decided that it's going to wait until the end of

233
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,959
Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven to introduce it properly or the other

234
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 2: states are doing it this that wild has just launched

235
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 2: this fantastic curriculum and it's filled with facts and knowledge

236
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 2: because I'm not sure how many other parents have issues

237
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,760
Speaker 2: where you cannot comprehend what your child is meant to

238
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,000
Speaker 2: be doing at school with book like some of the

239
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 2: assignments even in primary school, it's the so full of

240
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 2: jargons that no one can understand what to be doing.

241
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 2: I just think we need to go back to the

242
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,560
Speaker 2: fundamentals in primary school, if we teach them fundamental reading

243
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 2: and writing and make them love love books and love reading.

244
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 2: Screens is a huge problem. If I ruled the world,

245
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 2: I would unfluke the Internet. I just think it's caused

246
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 2: so much damage to children's learning and to children's mental health.

247
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the biggest issues facing parents.

248
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,040
Speaker 2: Queensland only decided this year that it would ban smartphones

249
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,000
Speaker 2: in classmens, and we all know kids are just using

250
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,840
Speaker 2: their smartphones and hot spotting all sorts of inappropriate things.

251
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 2: They're not looking at the teacher, They're looking at stuff

252
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 2: on their phone. I don't know why Queensland resisted this

253
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 2: for so many years and left it up to individual schools.

254
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,640
Speaker 2: In New South Wales, the new Education Ministers their crew

255
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,400
Speaker 2: car is amazing. You have a child in the seven

256
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 2: and the first thing she did was in about a

257
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 2: wik of taking on the job, was banded smartphones in school.

258
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 2: I asked her what she said, because my own son

259
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 2: was so against it. I reckoned it must be a

260
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,959
Speaker 2: very good idea, and she said that they are now.

261
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,440
Speaker 2: But they are now. Side said principles love it. They

262
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 2: say they're seeing boys talking to each other in the playgrounds.

263
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,880
Speaker 2: They're actually talking to each other instead of looking at

264
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 2: screens and bullying each other and looking at inappropriate social media.

265
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 2: And they're reading books like this is what we need

266
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 2: our children to be doing at school. I think there's

267
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 2: too much pressure on them in primary school. If we

268
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 2: just stick to the basics, make them love learning, make

269
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 2: them want to be at school, let them have a

270
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 2: bit of fun, makes them learning interesting and relevant. We

271
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 2: will solve half our problems.

272
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 1: Listening to you say that, I'm torn between two thoughts.

273
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 1: Number one, Natasha, beta for Education Minister or PM, and

274
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 1: especially the unplug the Internet thing. But more than that,

275
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 1: what you described, especially in the first part of your answer,

276
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,440
Speaker 1: is a fundamental reliance helping children to feel capable and

277
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 1: competent when they're in the classroom or when they're doing

278
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 1: anything that requires a level of literacy or numeracy. And

279
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,320
Speaker 1: it's a basic psychological need. When you do not feel competent,

280
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: your motivation goes down, your well being goes down, and

281
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 1: you avoid rather than approach the things that require that skill. Natasha,

282
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 1: I've been a long time, a long time and quite

283
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 1: vocal critic of napland. My criticisms pretty varied, but usually

284
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 1: include the fact that results are shared with parents. I

285
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,120
Speaker 1: just don't think that it's helpful to be telling parents,

286
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 1: especially when it was the ten bands what banned your

287
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 1: kids are in that they're used in tables that allow

288
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 1: parents to compare schools, which also makes it into an

289
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 1: arms race with schools and turns napland or marketing exercise

290
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 1: for a lot of schools as well, and relatedly that

291
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 1: some schools ask certain children to not sit the test

292
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 1: because of how it's going to impact on their school's results.

293
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 1: So I have a neighbor just a couple of doors

294
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 1: down whose child goes to a quite prestigious school not

295
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 1: far from me on the Sunshine Coast, and she was

296
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 1: specifically asked to keep her child home from school for

297
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 1: napland this year, precisely for that reason. In addition to that,

298
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: there's some reliability in valid concerns around it. But if

299
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 1: we could deal with those issues, I see some value

300
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 1: in schools and governments having access to the data that

301
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: napland provides that they can guide those curriculum decisions. Will

302
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 1: you do something for me, as somebody who is pretty

303
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: antagonistic towards napland. Can you make the argument that napland

304
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 1: is worth one hundred million plus dollars that the government

305
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 1: spends on it each year or is my argument actually

306
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 1: persuasive and worth the paper that it's printed on.

307
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, first of all, I'm writing a piece for tomorrow's

308
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 2: paper which is based on a University of New South

309
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 2: Wales Business School study which shows that schools may be

310
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 2: manipulating the naplan data. Cool?

311
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 1: You mean you mean I was right? What do you know?

312
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 2: You're right?

313
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 1: You're right?

314
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 2: And it's who guess at private schools and that you know,

315
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 2: if students aren't performing well, we're suddenly we're dawn from

316
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 2: the test. Now, I think that is absolutely a disgusting

317
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 2: thing to do well.

318
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 1: It's mendacious and it's cynically in the extreme.

319
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am a very strong supporter of mac planned.

320
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 2: Before we had a NAP plan, there was no transparency.

321
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 2: We didn't know which schools were struggling. I'm not saying

322
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 2: schools that are struggling to just be left, you know,

323
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,239
Speaker 2: to you know, descend into more disadvantage. We should be

324
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 2: doing something to help them. We should also be looking

325
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 2: at the schools that are doing well and ask you

326
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,360
Speaker 2: why they're doing well? What are they doing that other

327
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 2: schools could do. There needs to be a lot more communication,

328
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,440
Speaker 2: and I disagree. I think as a parent, a maclan

329
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 2: card is much more clear than a report card. Report

330
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 2: cards often teachers don't want same thing negative right, So

331
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,480
Speaker 2: you don't know that your child doesn't know how to

332
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 2: diffractions for example, or doesn't you know isn't reading to

333
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 2: the required level. You've seen it on a map plan

334
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 2: and if you are an engaged parent, you go, holy moly,

335
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,520
Speaker 2: I better I better thought this out. You know you're off,

336
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,719
Speaker 2: you know, no more Fortnite until you start reading books

337
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 2: or I'm going to help you all. Get a tutor,

338
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 2: or I'll read to you. How can I help you?

339
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 2: A lot of parents, As you said, there is a

340
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 2: lot of dysfunction in our society, and we cannot blame

341
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 2: kids for parents' decisions, right, But this is where schools

342
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,360
Speaker 2: can step in, and I think that we do as

343
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,120
Speaker 2: a community have a responsibility to help children whose own

344
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 2: parents can't or won't help them, so we need to

345
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,119
Speaker 2: be assisting them. And you know, there's a saying that

346
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: if it's not measured, it's not managed. And that's how

347
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 2: I feel about MAC planned. I get annoyed when I

348
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 2: see people carrying on about how stressful it is, because

349
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: this is parents and students stressing your kids are I

350
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,199
Speaker 2: explain it like, well, when you go to the doctor,

351
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 2: they meant you to see how full you are and

352
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,200
Speaker 2: whether you're average for your age, or you know, whether

353
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,679
Speaker 2: you know maybe you're not eating enough protein or whatever.

354
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 2: You take your child to the dentist for preventative health

355
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 2: checks so that you can get the kids queen before

356
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 2: they get fillings neat feelings. I mean, it's just an

357
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 2: example of that plan should not be any different. You

358
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,239
Speaker 2: are measuring your child's learning in the basics, and if

359
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 2: there's a problem, you've got a chance to sort it

360
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 2: out before it gets worse. The problem is that it's

361
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 2: not getting any better. So you would think that if

362
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: we've got one in three kids in years free struggling,

363
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 2: you would hope that by year five, and definitely by

364
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 2: year seven you've reduced that proportion, so they're going into

365
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 2: high school that are equipped. But the problem is you've

366
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: got more kids struggling in year nine. So what do

367
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: you think is going to happen to those kids when

368
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 2: they hit year eleven and twelve. We have got the

369
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 2: lowest high school completion rate on records. Kids are voting

370
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 2: with their feet, there are school refusals, and sometimes I

371
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 2: just can't blame them, you know, like, I just think

372
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 2: we have just made everything so complicated and stressful. A

373
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,880
Speaker 2: school should be a place to hang with your mate, yes,

374
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,400
Speaker 2: to learn, but it's so high scafe these days.

375
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: Listening to your response we see napland quite differently. You're

376
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 1: much more for it than I am. I'm pretty much

377
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 1: against it. However, it seems that what I'm concerned about

378
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 1: you're also highlighting. And if we could fix those things,

379
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 1: that is the pressure on the students and the manipulation

380
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: by schools and maybe some of the reliability issues, we

381
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,640
Speaker 1: could actually have a test that provided people with meaningful

382
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 1: data that allowed us to assess what's really going on

383
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: and improve education. And I just love hearing the clarity

384
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: and the consistency between both of our goals. As you've described,

385
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,120
Speaker 1: we're looking for the same thing. Natasha, You've been really

386
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: generous with your time. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Last question,

387
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 1: Teacher shortages, teacher well beeing burnout major concerns in the

388
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,919
Speaker 1: education sector right across Australia. How do you think that

389
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 1: these issues are impacting student learning outcomes and contributing to

390
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: the current napland challenges. What needs to be done when

391
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 1: it comes to teacher well Beeing burnout.

392
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 2: Issues, Well, it's just a vicious fight, lisn't it. If

393
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: you've got children who are disengaged and then become disruptive,

394
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: they're not exactly going to be a pleasure to teach.

395
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 2: Teachers feel it's not their job to also be counselors

396
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: and welfare workers, etc. But I still maintain that if

397
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 2: we can fix these things up in primary school, these

398
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: will get better over time. And you know, I want

399
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: to have a good shout out to teachers. I think

400
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: they are fabulous. I think they do a really important

401
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 2: job in society, and I think that if only some

402
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: of the bureaucrats and governments would just listen and make

403
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 2: things a little simpler, like what they've done in your

404
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: South Wales with their shillibus is going to make a

405
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 2: huge difference for teachers. But you know in Queensland they're

406
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: stuck teaching something that's was made redundant two years ago.

407
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: Can you imagine at a hospital, say a medical researcher says, oh,

408
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 2: we've got a new way to treat cancer. The old

409
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: drugs you've been using they're not actually helping cure cancer

410
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 2: which had stopped using them. The hospitals don't say, oh, yeah,

411
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: we're just going to give the doctors six years to

412
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: get up to speed with the new thing before we

413
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: introduce it. That doesn't happen in the medical profession, So

414
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: why is it happening in education? If we know that

415
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: using phonic which became very unpopular for reasons, I will

416
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 2: never comprehend. You know, we will have magic words now

417
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: or you've got to you know, look and guests and

418
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 2: memorize words. It doesn't work for children which select at all.

419
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: They will never learn to read if you don't teach

420
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: them phonics and founding out letters and sounds, which was

421
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: done right up until for the nineteen seventeen I don't

422
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 2: understand why, you know, ideology has captured our classrooms which

423
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: we've put the children at the center and look at

424
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: their needs. We would be simplifying things.

425
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: Natasha Beida is a Walkley Award winning journalist and the

426
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: Education editor at The Australian. This has been a lot

427
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: of podcasts and Natasha, but I've loved listening to you

428
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful for this conversation. Really appreciate your time.

429
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank bike.

430
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: The Happy Family Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

431
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Thank you for your great work, Justin, really

432
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Tomorrow on The Happy Families Podcast, answering your

433
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: questions about kids in reality TV shows and conforming Conforming

434
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 1: in kindergarten. Carl wait to join you tomorrow for those

435
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: conversations on the Happy Families podcast. For more information about

436
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 1: making your family happy, up sign up for our newsletter

437
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot a you