1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: Just the heads up, this episode deals with child sex abuse. 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: If you're not feeling up to listening to this episode, 9 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: we will be back in your ears tomorrow morning. 10 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Tuesday, 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 3: the twenty eighth of November. I'm Sam, I'm Zara. A 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: study of two thousand Australian men found nearly ten percent 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 3: of respondents had committed a sexual offense against a person 14 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 3: under the age of eighteen. In Today's Deep Dive, tda's 15 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 3: podcast producer Ninakopples speaks to lead investigator of the study, 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 3: doctor Michael Salter. He's the associate professor at UNSW about 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 3: who is perpetrating these offenses. 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 4: So a really sort of painted picture of, as it were, 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 4: sort of the person you'd leased of being a child 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 4: tech to finder. 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 3: And what can be done to stop them? But Firs Aarra. 22 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 3: What's making headlines this morning. 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: Israel and Tamas have agreed to extend a pauson fighting 24 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: by two days. Qatar's Foreign Ministry which has helped mediate 25 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: the deal, so the extension is quote in order to 26 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: deliver additional aid into Gaza and release the largest possible 27 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: number of hostages and prisoners. The last day of the 28 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: ceasefire was initially set to be Monday local time. 29 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: A new report into Australian school standards has found national 30 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: curriculums aren't doing enough to meet learning benchmarks. Education Research 31 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 3: and consulting group Learning First found that by the time 32 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 3: Australian students reach high school, they've learned about half as 33 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: much science content as students in other countries. For example, 34 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: it found that from kindergarten to year eight, the Australian 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: curriculum covers forty four topics overall, compared to England, which 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: covers eighty four topics. The report also found gaps in 37 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: Australian curriculums are adding to the difficulties being experienced by teachers. 38 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: The defamation trial brought forward by Bruce Lehman against Network 39 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: ten and Lisa Wilkinson will enter its fifth day today. 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: Of course, we did a podcast on this topic earlier 41 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: last week and I will throw the link in the 42 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: show notes. During cross examination yesterday, Lehman admitted to lying 43 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: to his former boss, Senator Linda Reynolds in a twenty 44 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 2: nineteen letter that said he was in Queensland when he wasn't. 45 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: It comes after he admitted last week to providing three 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: different stories to different parties about why he was in 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: Parliament House on the night of the alleged rape of 48 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: Britney Higgins. Lehman has and continues to maintain his innocence. 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: And today's good news, Zara, what have you done this. 50 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 5: Week setting me up for failure? 51 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 3: Well, you've done less than an Australian woman who will 52 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: attempt a Guinness. 53 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 5: Any Australian woman, or this particular. 54 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 3: This particular one. She is going to attempt a guinnesswell 55 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 3: record for the longest ultra marathon completed in a polar region. 56 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: Donna k Arch will take on some of the world's coldest, 57 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: windiest and driest conditions when she starts the ultramathon in 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: Antarctica on the fourth of December as part of the 59 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: run Urkhat is raising money to encourage girls and women 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: to participate in sport. 61 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 5: Michael, thank you so much for joining us on the 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 5: daily years. This morning. 63 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: Great to be here. 64 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 5: You've launched the findings from the largest survey of its 65 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 5: kind where you asked Australian men about their sexual feelings 66 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 5: and behaviors towards children. What did you learn about the 67 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 5: prevalence of those thoughts and feelings? 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: So high level, what we found was that about one 69 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 4: in six Australian men report sexual interest in people under 70 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 4: the age of eighteen, and just around one in ten 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: men reports some kind of sexual offending against children. 72 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 5: So that gives us an idea of the scale of 73 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 5: the issue we're dealing with. But you didn't just look 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 5: at the numbers. You also started to build a profile 75 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 5: of who these men are. Are they married, are they single? 76 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 5: Where they work? Can you in a bit of a 77 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 5: picture of who these men are that we're talking about. 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: So this was a bit of a surprise for us. 79 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 4: We asked a lot of demographic questions, yeah, just age, background, income, relationships, 80 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 4: these sorts of things, and what we found was that 81 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 4: you know, met me or abusing children superficially on average, 82 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 4: seemed to be doing better than men who don't abuse children, So, 83 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 4: you know, more likely to be married, tending to be 84 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 4: a high income, tended to be living in the city. 85 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: We found that they had pretty good social support scores, 86 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 4: so we asked whether they had good friendships, good connections 87 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 4: at work, relationship satisfaction. All of that was looking actually 88 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 4: quite good for those men. So it really sort of 89 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 4: painted a picture of, as it were, sort of the 90 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 4: person you'd least suspect of being a child sex offender. 91 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 4: These men looked quite premeditated. They were more likely to 92 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 4: use like encrypted social media apps, they were more likely 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: to be on the dark web, more likely to own cryptocurrency, 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 4: and more likely to be paying for things on the 95 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 4: online with cryptocurrency. So they also seemed to be people 96 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 4: who were taking a number of steps to hide what 97 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 4: they were doing online. 98 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 5: In particular, I think that word premeditated speaks volumes because 99 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 5: I guess it starts to paint a picture of what 100 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 5: we know about who's offending, but also how you can 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 5: prevent offending. So what did you learn about what those 102 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 5: indicators are and how we can stop people before they 103 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 5: do become offenders. 104 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 4: Something that stood out really clearly in our research was 105 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 4: around childhood adversity, that childhood trauma and adversity seems to 106 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 4: have a role to play in impacting boys development, such 107 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 4: that some boys, not all obviously, but for some boys, 108 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 4: childhood trauma, adversity, abuse has a role in the development 109 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 4: of sexual feelings towards children. And so what it really 110 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 4: means is that child protection child safety is kind of 111 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 4: a double win, as it were. Of course, we need 112 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 4: to keep children safe because that's a moral prerogative. But 113 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 4: when we keep kids safe, that has an intergenerational effect. 114 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 4: It actually helps keep the next generation of children safe. 115 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 4: I think the other high level finding for US was 116 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 4: around internet regulation. Seven and a half percent of men 117 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: have committed some kind of online sexual offense, and they're 118 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 4: really committing those offenses through commercial social media platforms internet 119 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 4: service providers who just don't have child protection safeguards built in. 120 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: It really flags that at the moment, the Internet is 121 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: way too available for the facilitation of sexual harm to children, 122 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 4: and the technology sector's got a long way to go. 123 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 5: I want to come back to that idea of prevention, 124 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: but before we do, one of the things I don't 125 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 5: think we've discussed yet is pornography and the role it 126 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 5: can play in indicating potential perpetrators. What did you learn 127 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 5: about that space. 128 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 4: Something that we know about child sex offenders is often 129 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 4: they're sort of sexually fairly diverse. Like we tend to 130 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 4: focus on their sexual interest in children, obviously because that's illegal, 131 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 4: but it's not uncommon in a forensic setting for clinicians 132 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 4: who treat sex defenders that they're reporting that these men 133 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 4: are actually sexually they're sort of like quite hyper sexual, 134 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 4: and that really came through in our data. So these 135 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 4: men are watching much more pornography than your average man, 136 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 4: but also the pornography that they're viewing, it's more likely 137 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: to be violent and forceful. And something that came through 138 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: quite strongly was that child sex offenders are much more 139 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 4: likely to consume animal pornography. And the reason why we 140 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 4: asked that, and it seems a bit strange to ask that, 141 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: but it's that sexual interest in children. It's a sexual pathology, 142 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 4: it's a sexual illness, and we're dealing with people who 143 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 4: are sexually disordered, who have other sexual arousal patterns that 144 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 4: are really quite deviant. 145 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 5: Do you think that part of the solution here is 146 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 5: about really investing in mental health for men and for 147 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 5: survivors of abuse. For example, I remember in your report 148 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 5: it said that almost thirty percent of those who told 149 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 5: you they had sexual feelings for children also said they 150 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 5: wanted help. 151 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 4: A partner for us in this study is Stop It 152 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 4: Now Australia, which at the moment is a pilot program 153 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 4: for people that have sexual feelings or are worried about 154 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: their sexual behaviors towards children. And it certainly seems in 155 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 4: US study that having sexual feelings towards children was actually 156 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 4: really stressful, so stressful, the men were quite depressed, and 157 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 4: you can I mean that makes a certain kind of sense, 158 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 4: And it was true for the men that were sexually 159 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 4: abusing children, they were really anxious and depressed as well. 160 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: And it may well be that there's sort of a 161 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 4: bi directional relationship there that firstly having these sexual interests 162 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: is quite upsetting, but also for the men who have 163 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: acted on those sexual interests, that that's really stressful as well, 164 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 4: because they're keeping a kind of a secret. So stop 165 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 4: in Our Australia was an important partner for us on 166 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 4: this project, and I think a really important initiative US 167 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 4: to support in Australia, as uncomfortable as it might feel, 168 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 4: really encouraging men and boys who realize that they're sexually 169 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 4: attracted to kids to reach out for help and to 170 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 4: do that really early. Unfortunately, the mental health workforce in 171 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: Australia is not trained to deal with people in the 172 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 4: community that do have sexual feelings towards kids. And what 173 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 4: it means is that the only way for these men 174 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 4: to get treatment is actually to commit an offense, get arrested, 175 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 4: get charged, you go to prison, and then they can 176 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 4: get access to clinical treatment. So we really need to 177 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 4: be intervening with those men way upstream, really early on. 178 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 5: So we've talked about mental health interventions. You mentioned in 179 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 5: passing some of the responsibility of social media platforms to 180 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 5: be doing a better job at monitoring their sites. What 181 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 5: role does government play here in acting on the evidence 182 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 5: you've found and the indications of potential perpetrators to either 183 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 5: prevent offenses or to find people once they have offended. 184 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 4: I mean, government intervention here is absolutely crucial. 185 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: You know. 186 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 4: The question I'm constantly asked as a child sexual abuse 187 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 4: researcher when I talk about my findings is what can 188 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: parents do you know what comparents do? And I understand 189 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 4: that and I'm happy to talk to that, but in 190 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 4: the end, it's not the responsibility of parents, it's not 191 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 4: the responsibility of children, it's government. Now. In the online 192 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 4: regulation space, without question, Australia is considered a world leader. 193 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: The Safety Commission has really unparalleled powers compared to regulators 194 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 4: overseas to demand action, demand transparency, demand accountability from the 195 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 4: technology sector. The issue is the technology sector is not 196 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 4: bound by Australian laws, so that's a real challenge for us. 197 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 4: I think something that has been disappointing in the Australian 198 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 4: context because there's no question that pornography has a role here. 199 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 4: We need more structure in the adult pornography space. We 200 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 4: have six point seven percent of Australian men who have 201 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: intentionally accessed child sextu abuse materia. Two thirds of those 202 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: men access that content when they were teenagers. And that 203 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 4: tells you just how widely available illegal content is. And 204 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 4: it's intermingled and distributed with adult content. So you know, 205 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 4: there's recently been some efforts to bring in, you know, 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 4: age controls around access to adult content. I think that 207 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 4: that really is the first step. The government's really I think, 208 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 4: kicked that can down the road, whereby it's going to 209 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 4: take five or six years before we do bring in 210 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 4: age verification for adult content. I do think that that's 211 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 4: a mistake. I respect that this is a complex space, 212 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: but I think we really need to see action in 213 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 4: the next two or three years. I think your five 214 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 4: or six year window is a real lost opportunity. 215 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 5: I think a good place to end speaks to that 216 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 5: question you said people ask you all the time, which is, 217 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 5: if you're a parent, it must be very scary to 218 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 5: hear the kind of statistics we've spoken about today and 219 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 5: to know how to look out for your kids. Also, 220 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 5: I noticed in your report mention of the fact that 221 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 5: you know we do need to educate kids, but also 222 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 5: the burden on protecting children should not be on children, 223 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 5: you know, So I guess, yeah, what do you say 224 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 5: to parents and their families about how to be safe online? 225 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 4: I think we need to be realistic with kids about 226 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 4: what the internet is, which just at the moment is 227 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 4: it's really unsafe. You know, we had a bath toy 228 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 4: that was recalled in Australia because I think it was 229 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 4: six kids cut themselves on the toy in the bath, 230 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 4: and so like, thousands of toys are recalled. And yet 231 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 4: you know, we have thousands of kids being abused on 232 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 4: social media platforms and nothing is done. So we don't 233 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 4: have the settings, right. I think we really need to 234 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 4: be really honest with kids about that, and I think 235 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 4: we also need to be age appropriate when we're having 236 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 4: these conversations with kids with online safety. Yes, we're much 237 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 4: more lockdown and in control with younger kids. That makes 238 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 4: a lot of sense. I think for some parents who 239 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 4: really try and restrict their kids to keep them safe 240 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 4: both online and offline, that's understandable. But there comes a 241 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: point where you're a teenager. If you're too restrictive, we'll 242 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 4: just start lying to you and we'll just start keeping 243 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 4: secrets from you. And that's not what that's not what 244 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 4: you want. So I think it's an honest conversation. What 245 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 4: we really need kids to understand is if they get 246 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 4: into trouble online that we are absolutely on their team. 247 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 4: They don't need to keep secrets, they won't be in trouble. 248 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 4: We will support them. I think that's really important. 249 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 5: Michael, thank you so much for your time today. I 250 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 5: really appreciate it. 251 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 4: Thank you. 252 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: If this episode brought up anything for you, you can 253 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or one eight hundred 254 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three 255 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: to two. We'll be back again tomorrow, but until then, 256 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 2: have a wonderful day.