Speaker 1: If someone were to ask you how you define a
Speaker 1: healthy professional network, the first thing you probably think about
Speaker 1: is size, like how many people you know? And if
Speaker 1: you were looking for a job or help on a project,
Speaker 1: how many people do you have? And your virtual rollodecks
Speaker 1: that you could call. But Marissa King knows that there
Speaker 1: is a lot more to a healthy network than size.
Speaker 1: Marissa is a professor of organizational behavior at the Yale
Speaker 1: School of Management, and she's been studying social networks for
Speaker 1: the past fifteen years. She's also the author of Social Chemistry,
Speaker 1: where she explores how anyone can build more meaningful and
Speaker 1: productive relationships. So how does someone who's studied networking approach
Speaker 1: meeting new people at a conference? And how does Marissa
Speaker 1: go about making new friends? And what does the research
Speaker 1: say about how we can make ourselves more likable in
Speaker 1: social situations.
Speaker 2: I'm doctor Amantha Imba.
Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science
Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, And this is how I work a show
Speaker 1: that helps you do your best work. So, given Marissa
Speaker 1: has dedicated her professional life to studying networks, I was
Speaker 1: very keen to understand what kind of a network she
Speaker 1: saw herself as being.
Speaker 3: I would probably start with saying, I'm a very reluctant networker.
Speaker 3: Why is that, Like a lot of people, I feel
Speaker 3: really uncomfortable at least they used to feel really uncomfortable
Speaker 3: about being intentional about relationships. And that was one of
Speaker 3: the reasons that I have really delved into this topic.
Speaker 3: And when I started my career, I had spent you know,
Speaker 3: the early part of my career purely in research, so
Speaker 3: in the bottom of a basement when no windows, coding
Speaker 3: computers all day studying networks and how they work. And
Speaker 3: then when it came time to really get into the
Speaker 3: professional realm, I kept getting this advice like, you need
Speaker 3: to network, you need to get out there, you need
Speaker 3: to meet new people. And that for me was just paralyzing,
Speaker 3: and the more afraid I got, the harder it was.
Speaker 1: So I I've changed your approach then to like meeting
Speaker 1: new people from the research that you've done over the years.
Speaker 3: Fundamentally, right, we often teach what we need, and a
Speaker 3: lot of what I've tried to do is to understand
Speaker 3: what are some of the basic things that we know
Speaker 3: from social science and how relationships work, and start to
Speaker 3: apply those in my own life. So as an example,
Speaker 3: this idea of you know, like networking, oftentimes people feel
Speaker 3: awkward about or it makes us feel dirty. There's great
Speaker 3: research that was done by Tusiana Guitar Rotman and Francesco
Speaker 3: at Geno of Harvard when they actually delved into this
Speaker 3: and what they found when they asked people to recall
Speaker 3: different types of interactions. So imagine a spontaneous interaction that's
Speaker 3: purely social. You bump into someone at a coffee shop
Speaker 3: and they become a friend, or a certain type of
Speaker 3: what we often think of is networking, right, a certain
Speaker 3: type of social interaction you're going somewhere with a professional
Speaker 3: objective in mind. And what they found is that when
Speaker 3: people think of networking and they were just simply asked
Speaker 3: to write about it and recall it compared to other
Speaker 3: types of social interaction, that they were twice as likely
Speaker 3: to recall cleansing words like wash or wish. So it
Speaker 3: really taps into this idea that many people have this
Speaker 3: natural moral aversion. But one of the things that they
Speaker 3: found that I've really tried to apply and has been
Speaker 3: extraordinarily helpful in my own approach to relationships is to
Speaker 3: think about instead of what I could get out of
Speaker 3: a social interaction. So that's this instrumental calculating part. If
Speaker 3: I reframe that and think about what can I give instead,
Speaker 3: that that really has helped me overcome all this reluctance
Speaker 3: about being really intentional or instrumental about my relationships.
Speaker 1: So given that, let's just say you're at a conference,
Speaker 1: how do you then approach meeting new people?
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing right is to try to change
Speaker 3: the orientation of instead of what can I get out
Speaker 3: of this? Is there some way I can be of
Speaker 3: service or help other people? But that is just like
Speaker 3: the tip of the iceberg. So we know that part
Speaker 3: of the reluctance or resistance people have to networking comes
Speaker 3: from this feeling of like ickiness or unease. But a
Speaker 3: second piece of it comes from feeling like you don't
Speaker 3: know how to do this. So and I fall into
Speaker 3: this category due so not only am I reluctant to
Speaker 3: do it, I often feel like I don't actually know
Speaker 3: how to do this. I'm deeply, deeply and I wouldn't
Speaker 3: say interpreted, but I'm really guarded. And so the idea
Speaker 3: for me of if I'm at a conference, of walking
Speaker 3: into a networking event, it pretty much is Paralynzic like
Speaker 3: I to a large extent avoid purposely avoid situations like that.
Speaker 3: But what I do know, and what I found extraordinarily helpful,
Speaker 3: is that by having some very very basic tools and
Speaker 3: my tool kit, I can approach those situations with less fear,
Speaker 3: which allows me to engage more authentically. So I can
Speaker 3: give an example of doing this. So now you've, as
Speaker 3: you mentioned right that I do going to a conference.
Speaker 3: It calls to mind like walking into one of these
Speaker 3: big rooms when I don't know anybody, and for me
Speaker 3: that often feels like I'm just walking into like a
Speaker 3: wall or an ocean of people. But what we know
Speaker 3: from research is that people write don't form walls or oceans,
Speaker 3: that they tend to actually clump together in small groups.
Speaker 3: So if I can see instead of this ocean of
Speaker 3: people just like islands of people, then the question is like, Okay,
Speaker 3: now they're islands. So this feels a little bit more manageable.
Speaker 3: What am I going to do next? Well, we know
Speaker 3: again from research that was done using wearable sensors at
Speaker 3: these types of events, that like most people, I would
Speaker 3: try to find someone I already know, even if my
Speaker 3: goal is that I'm going to be new people. I
Speaker 3: would usually try to stick to someone I know, but
Speaker 3: I know that that's not a good strategy, So setting
Speaker 3: that aside, what we know is that people almost always
Speaker 3: interact in groups of two or diets. It's really the
Speaker 3: most fundamental unit of human interaction. We have two eyes,
Speaker 3: and we have two ears, and our hearing does something
Speaker 3: that's known as the cocktail parttery effect. It really hones
Speaker 3: in on a single voice. So that means that if
Speaker 3: you can find an island with an odd number of people,
Speaker 3: whether that's three, five, seven, it doesn't really matter. If
Speaker 3: there's an odd number of people there, there's someone who
Speaker 3: really isn't a part of the conversation that is likely
Speaker 3: looking for a conversational partner. And so that very basic
Speaker 3: strategy for me has become critical to starting to navigate
Speaker 3: a lot of the social anxiety I feel in these
Speaker 3: types of situations because it gives me direction. So that's
Speaker 3: one of the things that's helped me out with conferences
Speaker 3: and other professional events. So, particularly when I feel like
Speaker 3: I don't really know what to do here, having a
Speaker 3: feeling like I have some little playbook helps.
Speaker 1: I love that look for odd numbers. It's so practical
Speaker 1: and simple. What are some other.
Speaker 2: Tools that you're using at these kinds of events?
Speaker 3: For me, one of the pieces that I try to
Speaker 3: keep in mindor what are some of the things that
Speaker 3: just lead to natural social chemistry. There's great research that
Speaker 3: has shown that one of the best things that you
Speaker 3: can do in a conversation is actually asked follow up questions.
Speaker 3: So asking questions in general makes people more likable, but
Speaker 3: we know that the follow up question actually has particular power,
Speaker 3: and in part that because it shows that you're really
Speaker 3: listening to the other person and so once so now
Speaker 3: you're your odd numbered island. You found someone to talk to,
Speaker 3: and really just listening to them and engaging with them
Speaker 3: and continuing to ask all up questions really not only
Speaker 3: increases the sense of liking, but it deepens the conversation,
Speaker 3: and the more depth that there has to conversation, the
Speaker 3: easier it is to truly connect.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I was intrigued when I was reading your book Social Chemistry.
Speaker 1: You actually talk about there are six types of questions
Speaker 1: that we can ask, follow up questions being the most powerful.
Speaker 1: Are there any other kinds of questions that can help
Speaker 1: us get into an interesting territory that will lead to
Speaker 1: those follow up questions.
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that we also know
Speaker 3: about just how conversations normally unfold is there's a secret
Speaker 3: ingredients is also what I think of as mutual reciprocal
Speaker 3: self disclosure. And so there's a great study that was
Speaker 3: done by Arthur Aeron's which and it famously became like
Speaker 3: the thirty six Questions to fall in Love. But what's
Speaker 3: key about the way that those questions unfold is that
Speaker 3: they get with increasing depth. But what I've found also
Speaker 3: is true is that people will often try to meet
Speaker 3: you where you are. So, for instance, in a conversation,
Speaker 3: if I'm honest and open, that encourages the other person
Speaker 3: to be honest and open to So an example of
Speaker 3: this is a common opening question is like how are
Speaker 3: you doing today? And lots of people right just use that.
Speaker 3: It's a throwaway like oh, I'm good, how are you?
Speaker 3: Or talk about the weather. But to really build a relationship,
Speaker 3: and particularly to accelerate the building the relationship process, you
Speaker 3: need to go far beyond that, right, and you also
Speaker 3: need to go beyond what I could learn by googling
Speaker 3: you or seeing on your CV and so often is
Speaker 3: when people ask that I tell them truly how I'm
Speaker 3: doing today, and that honesty is usually met with equal
Speaker 3: honesty and openness. Not all the time, but when it is,
Speaker 3: it really just changes the tenor of the conversation and
Speaker 3: makes connecting far easier.
Speaker 2: So how much would you typically share?
Speaker 1: Because you also talk about you know, research into oversharing
Speaker 1: and that can that can have, you.
Speaker 2: Know, not great consequences.
Speaker 1: So how do you sort of gauge how much to share,
Speaker 1: how vulnerable to make yourself when you are first connecting
Speaker 1: with someone.
Speaker 3: It's such a good question, and I think that this
Speaker 3: is particularly if you're trying to do this so at
Speaker 3: work or certain situations, understanding what are the constraints, and
Speaker 3: particularly like imagining the other person, because for this to
Speaker 3: be comfortable for everybody, I often say, like you need
Speaker 3: two things. It's a part of the essential elements for
Speaker 3: these types of conversations, which are safety in structure, right,
Speaker 3: So the structured interaction part is that we're talking about
Speaker 3: something rather than just open conversation. So this is why
Speaker 3: in general, just having a cocktail party or a work
Speaker 3: event with no purpose it's really really difficult. Instead, if
Speaker 3: you're ideally, if we go back to that previous scenario
Speaker 3: and we imagine that we're setting the stage or designing
Speaker 3: this interaction, ideally that there's going to be something to
Speaker 3: talk about that's mutual safeground. So if that's true, it
Speaker 3: makes it a lot easier. When that's not true, what
Speaker 3: you're looking for is that you want to engage in
Speaker 3: conversation that's aimed at mutual discovery, but in a place
Speaker 3: that right like, I'm not going to tell you about
Speaker 3: I mean I personally, For instance, I don't really talk
Speaker 3: about my family life. I don't talk about there's lots
Speaker 3: of which a lot of people do, but I'm really private,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned. So the idea is I let you
Speaker 3: know things about myself, maybe where I grew up or
Speaker 3: really transformative experience. I had a great question to ask people,
Speaker 3: what are you really excited about right now? Because it
Speaker 3: allows you to tap into passion, it allows you to
Speaker 3: tap into identity, but it's giving the person a lot
Speaker 3: of control over what the boundaries of discussion are, which
Speaker 3: creates the safety that's so essential. Now.
Speaker 1: In your book, you write about Jane Dutton's work into
Speaker 1: high quality connections, and I was curious as to well, firstly,
Speaker 1: if you could define what a high quality connection is,
Speaker 1: but then how do you think about using that research
Speaker 1: in creating those high quality connections when you are meeting
Speaker 1: new people.
Speaker 3: A high quality connection is a connection that's really positively
Speaker 3: energizing in the moment, that has a lot of resilience.
Speaker 3: So it's not when I say it's positively energizing, it's
Speaker 3: not just like that makes you feel happy, but that
Speaker 3: it strikes an emotional core in a way that is
Speaker 3: energizing but also has the ability to hold a lot
Speaker 3: of emotion, and that can be it's difficult to articulate,
Speaker 3: but you know when you're in them. And that's one
Speaker 3: of the really powerful pieces of a high quality connection
Speaker 3: is it has true physiological effects. So when you're in
Speaker 3: a high quality connection, for instance, your cortisol levels, which
Speaker 3: are a biomarker of stress, lower, your heart rate slows down,
Speaker 3: your breathing slows down. So we're really wired physically to
Speaker 3: be in these types of connections and they can happen.
Speaker 3: Which is so powerful is they can happen in a moment,
Speaker 3: so we can get that kind of energizing connection even
Speaker 3: with a stranger that we are just meeting for the
Speaker 3: first time, and so how.
Speaker 1: Do you then apply that research when you're you know,
Speaker 1: at a conference or at the dinner of Hattie and
Speaker 1: you're encountering people that you don't know.
Speaker 3: The heart of a high quality connection is really being
Speaker 3: as present as you can in them. If we think
Speaker 3: about where high quality connections come from, right, We've talked
Speaker 3: about these physiological effects, but they're really felt through our senses.
Speaker 3: So whether that's through eyesight, touch is extraordinarily powerful, or
Speaker 3: listening is another example of the ways in which high
Speaker 3: quality connections are really created. And to move in this direction.
Speaker 3: The first and biggest piece, which I feel like is
Speaker 3: the biggest very of the most people, including me, based
Speaker 3: on a day to day basis, is just simply distraction,
Speaker 3: and that, in many ways is what can derail these
Speaker 3: the most. So there's great research going that in a conversation,
Speaker 3: just even simply having a phone on a table makes
Speaker 3: that conversation less enjoyable. It makes people feel that they're
Speaker 3: trusting their conversational partner less just simply the presence of
Speaker 3: a phone. There's another great example of this. There was
Speaker 3: a study that was done to try to understand how
Speaker 3: just how distracted can technology phones in particular make us.
Speaker 3: And to figure this out, the researchers ask people just
Speaker 3: to be walking down the street, either without a phone
Speaker 3: in hand or not. And what they found is that
Speaker 3: and then they sent this is a pungeline. Then they
Speaker 3: sent someone addressed as a clown unicycling by, and they
Speaker 3: found that two thirds of people who are on their
Speaker 3: phone did not even notice the person unicycling by. So
Speaker 3: this gives you a sense of just how much we
Speaker 3: can miss. And so it sounds like a very very
Speaker 3: simple place to start, but the truth is that most
Speaker 3: of us are descraped in most of the time, often
Speaker 3: by technology. So the first piece is actually to just
Speaker 3: simply put away your phone and try to be fully
Speaker 3: present with the person that you're connecting with.
Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned listening, and you write a lot about listening,
Speaker 1: and I one of the statistics in your book stuck
Speaker 1: with me that ninety six percent of people think they
Speaker 1: are a good listener, which he's probably quite untrue.
Speaker 2: So how can we listen better?
Speaker 3: Listening is one of these superpowers. I always say, if
Speaker 3: I could give a superpower to someone for human connection,
Speaker 3: it's listening, because it's so rare to truly be listened to.
Speaker 3: If you think about what often happens in conversation, people
Speaker 3: will derail a conversation. They're trying to be good listeners,
Speaker 3: but they'll derail a conversation by, for instance, jumping in
Speaker 3: with a oh, yeah, that happened to me, or oh,
Speaker 3: listen once something you know, a me too type of story,
Speaker 3: but that can often derail the conversation. Or they will
Speaker 3: try to offer advice, which is not necessarily what you're
Speaker 3: looking for. So one of the best ways that I
Speaker 3: found to just try to figure out like what's going
Speaker 3: on with me, like how well am I listening in
Speaker 3: a given moment, is to just simply, for instance, ask
Speaker 3: someone how like how are you doing today? Or or
Speaker 3: ask a question and see when I'm listening to them
Speaker 3: to see what my tendencies are. Do I have these
Speaker 3: tendencies to want to jump in and fix their problem
Speaker 3: and try to understand what am I doing and how
Speaker 3: quickly do I want to interrupt. There's great research that
Speaker 3: has looked at actually physicians in patient assessment, because in
Speaker 3: that research, listening is extraordinarily powerful, both in terms of
Speaker 3: reducing pain and healing, but also for how effective physicians are,
Speaker 3: and that research has found that after a physician ask
Speaker 3: a patient, you know, why are you here? For instance,
Speaker 3: they don't even when they know better that they'll only
Speaker 3: go seventeen seconds before they interrupt the patient. And if
Speaker 3: they just let them finish, which they oftentimes people say, well,
Speaker 3: won't they go on forever? And the case is that
Speaker 3: they usually don't go on beyond thirty seconds, But if
Speaker 3: they just give them the fall span, the entire visit
Speaker 3: is much more effective and wraps up faster. And so
Speaker 3: for me, at the very beginning, I just had to
Speaker 3: actually practice sitting on my hands and keeping my mouth shut,
Speaker 3: which sounds like a ridiculous thing to say, but what
Speaker 3: I found is actually one of the best things that
Speaker 3: you can do and interaction is simply to do nothing.
Speaker 3: And doing this exercise time and time again, I've seen
Speaker 3: people literally brought to tears just by having the opportunity
Speaker 3: to truly be heard.
Speaker 1: Hello, there, it is nearly time for a little ad break.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, I never talk about my
Speaker 1: own social networks, but if you're on social media, and
Speaker 1: let's face it, who isn't, feel free to reach out
Speaker 1: and follow me. I'm on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba.
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at amantha super simple, and I'm now
Speaker 1: getting a little bit more active on Instagram where you
Speaker 1: can find me at at amantha I. So we will
Speaker 1: be back after this break where Marissa will be talking
Speaker 1: about how do you sever tize with friends or people
Speaker 1: in your networks and on the flip side, how Marissa
Speaker 1: approaches making new friends. I want to talk about network
Speaker 1: churn or network turnover, and I was really intrigued how
Speaker 1: you write about that our networks start to reduce in
Speaker 1: size from gosh, like I think it was our mid twenties,
Speaker 1: like quite young. And I was also in the same
Speaker 1: context just thinking about, well, how do you know when
Speaker 1: it's time to say goodbye to someone in your network,
Speaker 1: like maybe like a close friend or someone that you've
Speaker 1: known really well at work and perhaps you're realizing that
Speaker 1: that relationship is no longer serving you. And you talk
Speaker 1: about how breakups are rare, So what do you do
Speaker 1: when you recognize that a connection that you have is
Speaker 1: no longer serving you?
Speaker 3: Oh, there's anything. There are two huge pieces of this.
Speaker 3: So the first piece is really just what's happening to
Speaker 3: how much our networks change over time, and as you mention,
Speaker 3: our networks are largest when we're twenty five, and then
Speaker 3: they tend to get just smaller and smaller over time.
Speaker 3: And one of the most striking things that I think
Speaker 3: has happened during the pandemic is actually just that reduction
Speaker 3: and the size of our network. So in my own research,
Speaker 3: I found that our networks overall, people's networks have shrunk
Speaker 3: by close to sixteen percent, but that's almost entirely due
Speaker 3: to reduction in the size of men's networks. So men's
Speaker 3: networks have shrunk by more than thirty five percent, which
Speaker 3: translates into roughly four hundred people. But women's networks have
Speaker 3: not shrunk at all. And what I think is really
Speaker 3: instructive about this reduction and network size in the particularly
Speaker 3: with thinking about it in parallel to what happens over
Speaker 3: our life course, is this reduction size of our network,
Speaker 3: it's really first off, unconscious, and the second pieces it's
Speaker 3: likely enduring. So what we know is that this reduction
Speaker 3: networks don't just naturally recover on their own, that you
Speaker 3: have to really reinvest in reinvigorating those relationships. But as
Speaker 3: you mentioned, right, most of us aren't thinking like this, right,
Speaker 3: Like we're not thinking about how to reinvigorate our networks,
Speaker 3: and we're also not thinking about when it's time to
Speaker 3: let go. So we're really just kind of driven by
Speaker 3: inertia and what's around us. Most people's networks that are
Speaker 3: really just accidents. It's just kind of like what's happening.
Speaker 3: But if we can start to be more intentional, whether
Speaker 3: that's more intentional with the respect to reaching out and
Speaker 3: reconnecting with people, or more intentional about letting people go,
Speaker 3: because we all, no matter who you are, right, we
Speaker 3: all have a fixed amount of time in the day,
Speaker 3: and so it's are you going to invest in relationships
Speaker 3: that are positive, that bring you joy or maybe you
Speaker 3: know you may be helpful, or are you going to
Speaker 3: invest in worrying about you know, you're grumpy coworker or
Speaker 3: your aunt or your neighbor who's just constantly a nuisance.
Speaker 2: So what have you done in your own life?
Speaker 1: Like when you feel like, okay, it's it's time to
Speaker 1: time to kind of sever this tie, particularly with someone
Speaker 1: that's a strong tie.
Speaker 3: Like I think it's like just a conversation based around
Speaker 3: the idea that this isn't good for either of us,
Speaker 3: and a lot of times there's also an opportunity to
Speaker 3: just change the where you're investing your energy the time
Speaker 3: the time that it's refocusing on just allocation of time.
Speaker 3: But I think it's simply like a conversation about like,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of I appreciated about this,
Speaker 3: but it's I don't think it's in either of our
Speaker 3: best interests time just to move and grow.
Speaker 1: Now on the flip side, in terms of growing on
Speaker 1: network or regrowing network thanks to COVID, Like, I think
Speaker 1: a lot about you know, Like I'm a forty three
Speaker 1: year old female, and I think about the process of
Speaker 1: making new friends because earlier in life, you know, there's
Speaker 1: all these opportunities to make new friends, like at school
Speaker 1: and university or college and so forth.
Speaker 2: But like I.
Speaker 1: Always wonder, like, you know, at my age, how does
Speaker 1: one go about making new friends? And I want to
Speaker 1: know for you, like what's your process for making a
Speaker 1: new friend?
Speaker 3: Why it's so easy, as you mentioned, like why it's
Speaker 3: so easy to make friends in college in particular, Right,
Speaker 3: I always find it interesting to ask people to, you know,
Speaker 3: write down the five people non family members that you're
Speaker 3: closest to and then in the next column, like write
Speaker 3: down or think about where you met them, And it's
Speaker 3: almost always in organizations or institutions, And particularly if you
Speaker 3: think about college or school, they have all the magic
Speaker 3: ingredients for already made relationship, right there's a common shared identity,
Speaker 3: there's coordinated social activities, and you have a lot of
Speaker 3: free time. And so when I think about how if
Speaker 3: I need to build or want to build new relationships,
Speaker 3: the idea is to try to think about, Okay, how
Speaker 3: can I find those common ingredients, And almost always it's
Speaker 3: right joining it being a joiner, so trying to figure
Speaker 3: out a new area or a new interest or a
Speaker 3: new passion and then joining a group of other people
Speaker 3: who are interested, and that common identity and shared interest
Speaker 3: really helps for relationships accelerate.
Speaker 1: In form that's interesting like something I've found why my
Speaker 1: daughter is in near too at school, and I felt
Speaker 1: like the school moms would be this new social network
Speaker 1: for me, and it just hasn't panned out like that.
Speaker 1: Like granted, I work full time and and I'm not
Speaker 1: at every pick up and drop off. I'm at, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe about half or so every week, and I just
Speaker 1: haven't found that kind of.
Speaker 2: Social clique, but I'm determined to like break through. What
Speaker 2: advice would you give me to help do that?
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't have any answers to that. I have
Speaker 3: the same issue myself. I mean, it's it's that piece
Speaker 3: the school parent friends is really difficult because those are
Speaker 3: your kids friends. They're not your friends, and so this
Speaker 3: notion of finding a common interest or shareground, it's really
Speaker 3: hard to move beyond the kids. And so I think
Speaker 3: that understanding for me, that's the purpose of those relationships
Speaker 3: is like, they're really my kids friends. I just need
Speaker 3: to be nice enough that my kid has play dates.
Speaker 3: But for me to find in any relationship, right if
Speaker 3: it's that one or at work, I always try to
Speaker 3: remind myself, like, the goal isn't like that I need
Speaker 3: to like everyone or everyone needs to like me, but
Speaker 3: there just needs to be mutual respect. And so that's
Speaker 3: how I focus on that. That's my approach to those
Speaker 3: types of relationships. And then I'm like, oh, I'll find
Speaker 3: my friends with they're weird sense of humor, right, like
Speaker 3: quirky things like outside my kid's school.
Speaker 1: That makes me feel so much better about like feeling
Speaker 1: like a bit of a failure with you know, forming.
Speaker 2: Really really good connections with the school moms. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: I formed, you know, a few new close friendships in
Speaker 1: my adult life, and I formed one recently in the
Speaker 1: last six months with this wonderful woman called me and
Speaker 1: we've got quite a lot in common. And I said,
Speaker 1: of I've been trying to unpack what has actually turned
Speaker 1: someone that I didn't know like six months ago into
Speaker 1: someone that feels like a really good friend now. And
Speaker 1: I feel like the frequency of our catch ups has
Speaker 1: certainly helped. But I guess, like, what what are the
Speaker 1: things Once you've joined something, you found someone with common interest,
Speaker 1: how do you actually then go about turning someone that
Speaker 1: you feel like you're clicking with into an actual friendship.
Speaker 1: What's been your process that you've gone through in your
Speaker 1: own life.
Speaker 3: I think a defining demarcation and relationship is when you
Speaker 3: become willing to ask for help from someone. And because
Speaker 3: it's the hard I say one of the defining differences
Speaker 3: between a casual acquaintance and a real friend is would
Speaker 3: you turn to them at a time of need. And
Speaker 3: why that's important is when it shows vulnerability, but it
Speaker 3: also shows trust to the other person and even today,
Speaker 3: for instance, our car broke down, and like, I had
Speaker 3: a neighbor who's like, are they a neighbor? Are they
Speaker 3: a friend? And we had to call them for help?
Speaker 3: And that I think is actually a turning point at
Speaker 3: least in that's a turning point in the relationship. And
Speaker 3: a lot of people I think are really reluctant to
Speaker 3: ask for help in general. And one of the things
Speaker 3: that I find helpful in this regard is to realize
Speaker 3: that actually asking someone from help for help help is
Speaker 3: really a gift because it allows them to have a
Speaker 3: sense of purpose, It allows them to feel a sense
Speaker 3: of mastery, and it also allows them to get outside
Speaker 3: of themselves. And I think it's the heart of human
Speaker 3: connection is really the mutual the ability to help one
Speaker 3: another and mutual help. And so that for me is
Speaker 3: one of the key ways of knowing, right if I'm
Speaker 3: really friends with someone or am I just a casual acquaintance.
Speaker 1: Is that like potentially a way to fast track a
Speaker 1: friendship by almost asking for help when you feel a
Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable asking for help.
Speaker 3: Yes, it also is showing parts of yourself that you
Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily want, right, like people to see. So the
Speaker 3: heart rate of trust is also vulnerability, and so there's
Speaker 3: a question, right of does trust comforst or does vulnerability
Speaker 3: come first? And I think it's it's kind of both.
Speaker 3: It's a mutually reinforcing process. But you can really fast
Speaker 3: track a relationship by being willing to either ask primarily
Speaker 3: by being willing to ask for help, but also you
Speaker 3: necessarily need to be willing to give it.
Speaker 1: There are they other tricks that you use for fast tracking,
Speaker 1: you know, like relationships or intimacy.
Speaker 2: In that regard.
Speaker 3: The other piece is related to this, which is just
Speaker 3: allowing people to see aspects of yourself, particularly the less
Speaker 3: perfect aspects. So I feel like so much of what
Speaker 3: happens on social media in the external world is trying
Speaker 3: to present this perfect image of ourself, but no one
Speaker 3: really looks or lives like that. And by allowing people
Speaker 3: to see, like, oh, this is how it really is,
Speaker 3: that that is a way of fostering authentic connection.
Speaker 1: I feel like we can't have a conversation about networks
Speaker 1: without talking about social media, And I'd love to know
Speaker 1: what's your approach to use seeing social media to build
Speaker 1: or faster or nurture your own networks.
Speaker 3: I try to avoid it as much as possible. It
Speaker 3: gets back to this question. It's often a substitute for
Speaker 3: really connecting with people, and social media is actually helpful
Speaker 3: for reinforcing existing sets of relationships. It's also helpful for
Speaker 3: building familiarity. We know that there's something called the mirror
Speaker 3: exposure effects. So the more you see something, whether that's
Speaker 3: a face or a symbol or a product, the more
Speaker 3: you like it. And so another thing that social media
Speaker 3: is good for is simply people will start to think
Speaker 3: they like you if they see you more. So that
Speaker 3: can also be an out of benefit of social media.
Speaker 3: But the truth is we all because of this limited
Speaker 3: amount of time, we have to choose where we're going
Speaker 3: to invest it. And for me, the investment always pays
Speaker 3: off when I'm actually being more present with the people
Speaker 3: that are physically around me than it is when I'm online.
Speaker 2: So that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: Like one thing I wonder about LinkedIn, which is probably
Speaker 1: the social network that I would invest most time and
Speaker 1: energy into, should I be accepting connections from people that
Speaker 1: I don't know on LinkedIn?
Speaker 3: My answer is yes. I actually, of all the platforms,
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot to be said for
Speaker 3: LinkedIn because there's a can you know what you're there for? Right?
Speaker 3: Like you're there to present a like a polished, a
Speaker 3: professional version of yourself, and it's pretty clear what it's for.
Speaker 3: So there's not this confusion that often happens in other
Speaker 3: sites around right like what am I projecting versus who
Speaker 3: I really am? Or what a message am I trying
Speaker 3: to send? Like, it's very clear what's happening there, and
Speaker 3: I don't I'm in there. I think there's no real
Speaker 3: drawback to expanding your community and having the opportunity to
Speaker 3: reach new ideas, And that's also one of the things
Speaker 3: that's been really powerful about There is a I would
Speaker 3: say a powerful positive of social media is that we
Speaker 3: actually tend to interact with people who are far more
Speaker 3: diverse on platforms. So research on LinkedIn has shown that
Speaker 3: this is true. So you can have connections that are
Speaker 3: far more diverse in online than you necessarily would in
Speaker 3: real life. So I would say go for it, right,
Speaker 3: you never know who you're going to bump into or
Speaker 3: what new ideas they may have.
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you have a weekly networking ritual.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 3: So we know that there's extraordinary power in our existing networks,
Speaker 3: and arguably the thing that you can do to benefit
Speaker 3: your network the most is to reinvigorate connections. And based
Speaker 3: on work that was done on something called dormantize, so
Speaker 3: people that you have not seen in two or three years.
Speaker 3: Research that was done by Dan Levin, who's a professor
Speaker 3: at R and his colleagues. They were curious about what
Speaker 3: are the benefits of these types of connections, and so
Speaker 3: they ask people to make a list of ten current
Speaker 3: connections and ten people that they haven't reached out to
Speaker 3: in two or three years, and then ask people to
Speaker 3: reach out to them for advice about a current project.
Speaker 3: And what they found is these ties, dormant ties were
Speaker 3: extraordinarily powerful and both they provide new, more creative ideas
Speaker 3: in existing contexts, but also the trust endured within those relationships,
Speaker 3: so they were really enjoyable. So I have taken this
Speaker 3: and turned it into a practice where I write down
Speaker 3: two or three people and on Fridays I reach out
Speaker 3: to them just to say, hey, I'm thinking about you.
Speaker 3: There's often sometimes I will have and ask or something
Speaker 3: I'm hoping to get out of it, like I be back,
Speaker 3: or just I may have a question but most of
Speaker 3: the time it's just hey, I'm thinking about you, and
Speaker 3: that for me has been both a source of great joy,
Speaker 3: but it's also been extraordinarily helpful.
Speaker 1: So in terms of what you say, like, it might
Speaker 1: just be general I'm thinking about you, what some what
Speaker 1: are some other examples of I guess things that you've like,
Speaker 1: reasons to reach out to someone that you've used.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, I like to think of this like,
Speaker 3: there are three different ways of approaching this, and oftimes
Speaker 3: there are people are like, oh my god, isn't this
Speaker 3: going to be awkward? First, so to just to say,
Speaker 3: I promise it's not. And the more you do it,
Speaker 3: the more you realize, like, oh, this is actually great.
Speaker 3: It's also helpful for me to imagine myself being in
Speaker 3: the other person's shoes. So if I imagine, like, oh,
Speaker 3: if I received this email, wouldn't I be happy to
Speaker 3: get it? And the answer is almost always yes. So
Speaker 3: I find that piece first helpful. So imagine now that
Speaker 3: you've gotten over the awkwardness. I always find it helpful
Speaker 3: to think of, right, are there three different ways that
Speaker 3: I can do this that I know will help increase
Speaker 3: social connection and also just make for a positive interaction.
Speaker 3: The first is simply to thank someone. We know that
Speaker 3: gratitude is a extremely powerful as a source of connection.
Speaker 3: So I may think of is there someone who was
Speaker 3: a mentor like this is who comes to mind right now?
Speaker 3: Is there a mentor or someone who gave me a
Speaker 3: piece of advice a couple of years ago, or someone
Speaker 3: when I was little right they served as a role model,
Speaker 3: and just simply to reach out to them and thank
Speaker 3: them for what they've done. So that's one easy way
Speaker 3: that's always always positive. I mean, these are all always positive,
Speaker 3: but it's just so nice. The second is to think
Speaker 3: about what I can give. It can be as simple as, hey,
Speaker 3: I saw this article or I was listening to this podcast.
Speaker 3: I thought you might like it. There are lots of
Speaker 3: things that we all have to give, particularly in this
Speaker 3: moment when people are so starved for social connection. Just
Speaker 3: saying like I'm thinking of you is in many ways
Speaker 3: a gift. But there are lots and lots of things
Speaker 3: that we have to give if we just start to
Speaker 3: think a little bit broader. And then the final is
Speaker 3: we were discussing previously. It's just simply to ask for help,
Speaker 3: which in many ways can be a gift of itself.
Speaker 1: So do you find that most people are writing back
Speaker 1: to you when you reach out in that way?
Speaker 3: Almost always? I can't even think of a time when
Speaker 3: they have it.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And so you're doing this every week, Like, if you
Speaker 1: look back over the last year, what would you say
Speaker 1: the impact has been for.
Speaker 2: You of really sticking to this weekly ritual.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, particularly during the past year, it's been
Speaker 3: a lifesaver in the sense that it has allowed me
Speaker 3: to feel connected during moments when I don't feel is
Speaker 3: connected as I possibly could be. My husband also does
Speaker 3: this and is really a nudge about doing it, and
Speaker 3: he found he wasn't looking for a job, but he
Speaker 3: ended up getting the job he had always wanted, working
Speaker 3: exactly with the people he wanted to work with, which
Speaker 3: was a game changer for our family. And I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just it makes me feel like a deeper sense
Speaker 3: of connection to my community. And I think there's no
Speaker 3: greater gift than that.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Are there any other habits or rituals that you've tried
Speaker 1: to help maintain a healthy network.
Speaker 3: The biggest thing for me is also just realizing in
Speaker 3: any given moment, So I tend towards I tend towards
Speaker 3: being thinking I'm really socially awkward, which makes me not
Speaker 3: want to engage with other people. And we know that
Speaker 3: this is common. Right, So most people think that they're
Speaker 3: better than average at most things, so they think they're
Speaker 3: smarter than average, or they are better drivers than average.
Speaker 3: But when it comes to social interaction, we know that
Speaker 3: we consistently underestimate how much people like us. So there's
Speaker 3: great research by Erica boothby showing this, and for me,
Speaker 3: one of the things that a practice I don't I
Speaker 3: wouldn't callut a ritual, but a practice that I try
Speaker 3: to keep in mind is that I'm far underestimating how
Speaker 3: much the other person truly wants to connect. And by
Speaker 3: reframing that and focusing on like, we as humans all
Speaker 3: really deeply want to connect and we all really want
Speaker 3: social interaction to go smoothly, and by reframing that, it's
Speaker 3: made it far more easier to navigate the everyday social
Speaker 3: interactions than it was before.
Speaker 1: Now, Marissa, my final question for you, for people that
Speaker 1: want to connect with you in some way and get
Speaker 1: the hands on social chemistry, what is the best way
Speaker 1: for people to do that?
Speaker 3: You can learn more about me and my work at
Speaker 3: Marissa King dot com and I'd love to connect with
Speaker 3: you on LinkedIn, whether you know them or not exactly.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for your time, Marissa. It
Speaker 1: is very absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 3: It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me.
Speaker 2: That is it for today's show.
Speaker 1: But if you haven't hit subscribe or follow wherever you're
Speaker 1: listening to this from, you might want to do that.
Speaker 1: Next week, I have Victoria Devine on the show. She
Speaker 1: is the host of She's on the Money, a podcast
Speaker 1: which is downloaded over one million times every month, and
Speaker 1: we are talking about how do you build a community
Speaker 1: of fans, which Victoria has done an amazing job of,
Speaker 1: and we'll also be going into a little bit of
Speaker 1: financial advice. How I Work is produced by Inventing with
Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this
Speaker 1: episode was the amazing Jenna Koda, and thank you to
Speaker 1: Martin Imba who did the audio mix and makes everything
Speaker 1: sound better than it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2: See you next time.