1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: If someone were to ask you how you define a 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: healthy professional network, the first thing you probably think about 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: is size, like how many people you know? And if 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: you were looking for a job or help on a project, 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: how many people do you have? And your virtual rollodecks 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: that you could call. But Marissa King knows that there 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: is a lot more to a healthy network than size. 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: Marissa is a professor of organizational behavior at the Yale 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: School of Management, and she's been studying social networks for 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: the past fifteen years. She's also the author of Social Chemistry, 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: where she explores how anyone can build more meaningful and 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: productive relationships. So how does someone who's studied networking approach 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: meeting new people at a conference? And how does Marissa 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: go about making new friends? And what does the research 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: say about how we can make ourselves more likable in 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: social situations. 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Amantha Imba. 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, And this is how I work a show 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: that helps you do your best work. So, given Marissa 21 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: has dedicated her professional life to studying networks, I was 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: very keen to understand what kind of a network she 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: saw herself as being. 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: I would probably start with saying, I'm a very reluctant networker. 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 3: Why is that, Like a lot of people, I feel 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: really uncomfortable at least they used to feel really uncomfortable 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: about being intentional about relationships. And that was one of 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: the reasons that I have really delved into this topic. 29 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 3: And when I started my career, I had spent you know, 30 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: the early part of my career purely in research, so 31 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 3: in the bottom of a basement when no windows, coding 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 3: computers all day studying networks and how they work. And 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 3: then when it came time to really get into the 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: professional realm, I kept getting this advice like, you need 35 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 3: to network, you need to get out there, you need 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: to meet new people. And that for me was just paralyzing, 37 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: and the more afraid I got, the harder it was. 38 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: So I I've changed your approach then to like meeting 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: new people from the research that you've done over the years. 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 3: Fundamentally, right, we often teach what we need, and a 41 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: lot of what I've tried to do is to understand 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 3: what are some of the basic things that we know 43 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: from social science and how relationships work, and start to 44 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: apply those in my own life. So as an example, 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 3: this idea of you know, like networking, oftentimes people feel 46 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: awkward about or it makes us feel dirty. There's great 47 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: research that was done by Tusiana Guitar Rotman and Francesco 48 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: at Geno of Harvard when they actually delved into this 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 3: and what they found when they asked people to recall 50 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: different types of interactions. So imagine a spontaneous interaction that's 51 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: purely social. You bump into someone at a coffee shop 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 3: and they become a friend, or a certain type of 53 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 3: what we often think of is networking, right, a certain 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: type of social interaction you're going somewhere with a professional 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: objective in mind. And what they found is that when 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: people think of networking and they were just simply asked 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 3: to write about it and recall it compared to other 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: types of social interaction, that they were twice as likely 59 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 3: to recall cleansing words like wash or wish. So it 60 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 3: really taps into this idea that many people have this 61 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 3: natural moral aversion. But one of the things that they 62 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: found that I've really tried to apply and has been 63 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: extraordinarily helpful in my own approach to relationships is to 64 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: think about instead of what I could get out of 65 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 3: a social interaction. So that's this instrumental calculating part. If 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 3: I reframe that and think about what can I give instead, 67 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: that that really has helped me overcome all this reluctance 68 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: about being really intentional or instrumental about my relationships. 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: So given that, let's just say you're at a conference, 70 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: how do you then approach meeting new people? 71 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing right is to try to change 72 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 3: the orientation of instead of what can I get out 73 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: of this? Is there some way I can be of 74 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: service or help other people? But that is just like 75 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: the tip of the iceberg. So we know that part 76 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: of the reluctance or resistance people have to networking comes 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: from this feeling of like ickiness or unease. But a 78 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: second piece of it comes from feeling like you don't 79 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: know how to do this. So and I fall into 80 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 3: this category due so not only am I reluctant to 81 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 3: do it, I often feel like I don't actually know 82 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: how to do this. I'm deeply, deeply and I wouldn't 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: say interpreted, but I'm really guarded. And so the idea 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: for me of if I'm at a conference, of walking 85 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 3: into a networking event, it pretty much is Paralynzic like 86 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: I to a large extent avoid purposely avoid situations like that. 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: But what I do know, and what I found extraordinarily helpful, 88 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 3: is that by having some very very basic tools and 89 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 3: my tool kit, I can approach those situations with less fear, 90 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: which allows me to engage more authentically. So I can 91 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 3: give an example of doing this. So now you've, as 92 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: you mentioned right that I do going to a conference. 93 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: It calls to mind like walking into one of these 94 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: big rooms when I don't know anybody, and for me 95 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: that often feels like I'm just walking into like a 96 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: wall or an ocean of people. But what we know 97 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 3: from research is that people write don't form walls or oceans, 98 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: that they tend to actually clump together in small groups. 99 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: So if I can see instead of this ocean of 100 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: people just like islands of people, then the question is like, Okay, 101 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 3: now they're islands. So this feels a little bit more manageable. 102 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: What am I going to do next? Well, we know 103 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: again from research that was done using wearable sensors at 104 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: these types of events, that like most people, I would 105 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 3: try to find someone I already know, even if my 106 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: goal is that I'm going to be new people. I 107 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: would usually try to stick to someone I know, but 108 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: I know that that's not a good strategy, So setting 109 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 3: that aside, what we know is that people almost always 110 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 3: interact in groups of two or diets. It's really the 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: most fundamental unit of human interaction. We have two eyes, 112 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 3: and we have two ears, and our hearing does something 113 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: that's known as the cocktail parttery effect. It really hones 114 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: in on a single voice. So that means that if 115 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 3: you can find an island with an odd number of people, 116 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: whether that's three, five, seven, it doesn't really matter. If 117 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: there's an odd number of people there, there's someone who 118 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: really isn't a part of the conversation that is likely 119 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: looking for a conversational partner. And so that very basic 120 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: strategy for me has become critical to starting to navigate 121 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: a lot of the social anxiety I feel in these 122 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:16,119 Speaker 3: types of situations because it gives me direction. So that's 123 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: one of the things that's helped me out with conferences 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: and other professional events. So, particularly when I feel like 125 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: I don't really know what to do here, having a 126 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: feeling like I have some little playbook helps. 127 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: I love that look for odd numbers. It's so practical 128 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: and simple. What are some other. 129 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: Tools that you're using at these kinds of events? 130 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: For me, one of the pieces that I try to 131 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: keep in mindor what are some of the things that 132 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 3: just lead to natural social chemistry. There's great research that 133 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: has shown that one of the best things that you 134 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: can do in a conversation is actually asked follow up questions. 135 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: So asking questions in general makes people more likable, but 136 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: we know that the follow up question actually has particular power, 137 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,239 Speaker 3: and in part that because it shows that you're really 138 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: listening to the other person and so once so now 139 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: you're your odd numbered island. You found someone to talk to, 140 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 3: and really just listening to them and engaging with them 141 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: and continuing to ask all up questions really not only 142 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: increases the sense of liking, but it deepens the conversation, 143 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: and the more depth that there has to conversation, the 144 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: easier it is to truly connect. 145 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 146 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: I was intrigued when I was reading your book Social Chemistry. 147 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: You actually talk about there are six types of questions 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: that we can ask, follow up questions being the most powerful. 149 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: Are there any other kinds of questions that can help 150 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: us get into an interesting territory that will lead to 151 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: those follow up questions. 152 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: I think one of the things that we also know 153 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: about just how conversations normally unfold is there's a secret 154 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: ingredients is also what I think of as mutual reciprocal 155 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: self disclosure. And so there's a great study that was 156 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: done by Arthur Aeron's which and it famously became like 157 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: the thirty six Questions to fall in Love. But what's 158 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 3: key about the way that those questions unfold is that 159 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: they get with increasing depth. But what I've found also 160 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 3: is true is that people will often try to meet 161 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 3: you where you are. So, for instance, in a conversation, 162 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: if I'm honest and open, that encourages the other person 163 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: to be honest and open to So an example of 164 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: this is a common opening question is like how are 165 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 3: you doing today? And lots of people right just use that. 166 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: It's a throwaway like oh, I'm good, how are you? 167 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 3: Or talk about the weather. But to really build a relationship, 168 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: and particularly to accelerate the building the relationship process, you 169 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 3: need to go far beyond that, right, and you also 170 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: need to go beyond what I could learn by googling 171 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 3: you or seeing on your CV and so often is 172 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: when people ask that I tell them truly how I'm 173 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: doing today, and that honesty is usually met with equal 174 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: honesty and openness. Not all the time, but when it is, 175 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: it really just changes the tenor of the conversation and 176 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 3: makes connecting far easier. 177 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: So how much would you typically share? 178 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: Because you also talk about you know, research into oversharing 179 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: and that can that can have, you. 180 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: Know, not great consequences. 181 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: So how do you sort of gauge how much to share, 182 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: how vulnerable to make yourself when you are first connecting 183 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: with someone. 184 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: It's such a good question, and I think that this 185 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: is particularly if you're trying to do this so at 186 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: work or certain situations, understanding what are the constraints, and 187 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 3: particularly like imagining the other person, because for this to 188 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: be comfortable for everybody, I often say, like you need 189 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 3: two things. It's a part of the essential elements for 190 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 3: these types of conversations, which are safety in structure, right, 191 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: So the structured interaction part is that we're talking about 192 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: something rather than just open conversation. So this is why 193 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: in general, just having a cocktail party or a work 194 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: event with no purpose it's really really difficult. Instead, if 195 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 3: you're ideally, if we go back to that previous scenario 196 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 3: and we imagine that we're setting the stage or designing 197 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: this interaction, ideally that there's going to be something to 198 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: talk about that's mutual safeground. So if that's true, it 199 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 3: makes it a lot easier. When that's not true, what 200 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: you're looking for is that you want to engage in 201 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: conversation that's aimed at mutual discovery, but in a place 202 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 3: that right like, I'm not going to tell you about 203 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 3: I mean I personally, For instance, I don't really talk 204 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: about my family life. I don't talk about there's lots 205 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: of which a lot of people do, but I'm really private, 206 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 3: as I mentioned. So the idea is I let you 207 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: know things about myself, maybe where I grew up or 208 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: really transformative experience. I had a great question to ask people, 209 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 3: what are you really excited about right now? Because it 210 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: allows you to tap into passion, it allows you to 211 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: tap into identity, but it's giving the person a lot 212 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 3: of control over what the boundaries of discussion are, which 213 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: creates the safety that's so essential. Now. 214 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: In your book, you write about Jane Dutton's work into 215 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: high quality connections, and I was curious as to well, firstly, 216 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: if you could define what a high quality connection is, 217 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: but then how do you think about using that research 218 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: in creating those high quality connections when you are meeting 219 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: new people. 220 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 3: A high quality connection is a connection that's really positively 221 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: energizing in the moment, that has a lot of resilience. 222 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: So it's not when I say it's positively energizing, it's 223 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: not just like that makes you feel happy, but that 224 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 3: it strikes an emotional core in a way that is 225 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 3: energizing but also has the ability to hold a lot 226 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: of emotion, and that can be it's difficult to articulate, 227 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 3: but you know when you're in them. And that's one 228 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: of the really powerful pieces of a high quality connection 229 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: is it has true physiological effects. So when you're in 230 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: a high quality connection, for instance, your cortisol levels, which 231 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: are a biomarker of stress, lower, your heart rate slows down, 232 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: your breathing slows down. So we're really wired physically to 233 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 3: be in these types of connections and they can happen. 234 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: Which is so powerful is they can happen in a moment, 235 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 3: so we can get that kind of energizing connection even 236 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: with a stranger that we are just meeting for the 237 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: first time, and so how. 238 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: Do you then apply that research when you're you know, 239 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: at a conference or at the dinner of Hattie and 240 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: you're encountering people that you don't know. 241 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 3: The heart of a high quality connection is really being 242 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: as present as you can in them. If we think 243 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 3: about where high quality connections come from, right, We've talked 244 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 3: about these physiological effects, but they're really felt through our senses. 245 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 3: So whether that's through eyesight, touch is extraordinarily powerful, or 246 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: listening is another example of the ways in which high 247 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: quality connections are really created. And to move in this direction. 248 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: The first and biggest piece, which I feel like is 249 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: the biggest very of the most people, including me, based 250 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: on a day to day basis, is just simply distraction, 251 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 3: and that, in many ways is what can derail these 252 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: the most. So there's great research going that in a conversation, 253 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: just even simply having a phone on a table makes 254 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: that conversation less enjoyable. It makes people feel that they're 255 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: trusting their conversational partner less just simply the presence of 256 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: a phone. There's another great example of this. There was 257 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: a study that was done to try to understand how 258 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: just how distracted can technology phones in particular make us. 259 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: And to figure this out, the researchers ask people just 260 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: to be walking down the street, either without a phone 261 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 3: in hand or not. And what they found is that 262 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 3: and then they sent this is a pungeline. Then they 263 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 3: sent someone addressed as a clown unicycling by, and they 264 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: found that two thirds of people who are on their 265 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: phone did not even notice the person unicycling by. So 266 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 3: this gives you a sense of just how much we 267 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: can miss. And so it sounds like a very very 268 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: simple place to start, but the truth is that most 269 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: of us are descraped in most of the time, often 270 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: by technology. So the first piece is actually to just 271 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: simply put away your phone and try to be fully 272 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: present with the person that you're connecting with. 273 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned listening, and you write a lot about listening, 274 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: and I one of the statistics in your book stuck 275 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: with me that ninety six percent of people think they 276 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: are a good listener, which he's probably quite untrue. 277 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: So how can we listen better? 278 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: Listening is one of these superpowers. I always say, if 279 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: I could give a superpower to someone for human connection, 280 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 3: it's listening, because it's so rare to truly be listened to. 281 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: If you think about what often happens in conversation, people 282 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: will derail a conversation. They're trying to be good listeners, 283 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: but they'll derail a conversation by, for instance, jumping in 284 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: with a oh, yeah, that happened to me, or oh, 285 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: listen once something you know, a me too type of story, 286 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: but that can often derail the conversation. Or they will 287 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: try to offer advice, which is not necessarily what you're 288 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: looking for. So one of the best ways that I 289 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: found to just try to figure out like what's going 290 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: on with me, like how well am I listening in 291 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 3: a given moment, is to just simply, for instance, ask 292 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 3: someone how like how are you doing today? Or or 293 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 3: ask a question and see when I'm listening to them 294 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: to see what my tendencies are. Do I have these 295 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 3: tendencies to want to jump in and fix their problem 296 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 3: and try to understand what am I doing and how 297 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 3: quickly do I want to interrupt. There's great research that 298 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 3: has looked at actually physicians in patient assessment, because in 299 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: that research, listening is extraordinarily powerful, both in terms of 300 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 3: reducing pain and healing, but also for how effective physicians are, 301 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: and that research has found that after a physician ask 302 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 3: a patient, you know, why are you here? For instance, 303 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: they don't even when they know better that they'll only 304 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 3: go seventeen seconds before they interrupt the patient. And if 305 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: they just let them finish, which they oftentimes people say, well, 306 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,479 Speaker 3: won't they go on forever? And the case is that 307 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: they usually don't go on beyond thirty seconds, But if 308 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: they just give them the fall span, the entire visit 309 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: is much more effective and wraps up faster. And so 310 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: for me, at the very beginning, I just had to 311 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 3: actually practice sitting on my hands and keeping my mouth shut, 312 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 3: which sounds like a ridiculous thing to say, but what 313 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 3: I found is actually one of the best things that 314 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: you can do and interaction is simply to do nothing. 315 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: And doing this exercise time and time again, I've seen 316 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: people literally brought to tears just by having the opportunity 317 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 3: to truly be heard. 318 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: Hello, there, it is nearly time for a little ad break. 319 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: But before we do that, I never talk about my 320 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: own social networks, but if you're on social media, and 321 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: let's face it, who isn't, feel free to reach out 322 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: and follow me. I'm on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba. 323 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at amantha super simple, and I'm now 324 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: getting a little bit more active on Instagram where you 325 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: can find me at at amantha I. So we will 326 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: be back after this break where Marissa will be talking 327 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: about how do you sever tize with friends or people 328 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: in your networks and on the flip side, how Marissa 329 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: approaches making new friends. I want to talk about network 330 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: churn or network turnover, and I was really intrigued how 331 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: you write about that our networks start to reduce in 332 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: size from gosh, like I think it was our mid twenties, 333 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: like quite young. And I was also in the same 334 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: context just thinking about, well, how do you know when 335 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: it's time to say goodbye to someone in your network, 336 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: like maybe like a close friend or someone that you've 337 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: known really well at work and perhaps you're realizing that 338 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: that relationship is no longer serving you. And you talk 339 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: about how breakups are rare, So what do you do 340 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: when you recognize that a connection that you have is 341 00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: no longer serving you? 342 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: Oh, there's anything. There are two huge pieces of this. 343 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 3: So the first piece is really just what's happening to 344 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: how much our networks change over time, and as you mention, 345 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: our networks are largest when we're twenty five, and then 346 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: they tend to get just smaller and smaller over time. 347 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 3: And one of the most striking things that I think 348 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: has happened during the pandemic is actually just that reduction 349 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 3: and the size of our network. So in my own research, 350 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: I found that our networks overall, people's networks have shrunk 351 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 3: by close to sixteen percent, but that's almost entirely due 352 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: to reduction in the size of men's networks. So men's 353 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 3: networks have shrunk by more than thirty five percent, which 354 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: translates into roughly four hundred people. But women's networks have 355 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: not shrunk at all. And what I think is really 356 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: instructive about this reduction and network size in the particularly 357 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 3: with thinking about it in parallel to what happens over 358 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 3: our life course, is this reduction size of our network, 359 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: it's really first off, unconscious, and the second pieces it's 360 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: likely enduring. So what we know is that this reduction 361 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: networks don't just naturally recover on their own, that you 362 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: have to really reinvest in reinvigorating those relationships. But as 363 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: you mentioned, right, most of us aren't thinking like this, right, 364 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: Like we're not thinking about how to reinvigorate our networks, 365 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: and we're also not thinking about when it's time to 366 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: let go. So we're really just kind of driven by 367 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: inertia and what's around us. Most people's networks that are 368 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: really just accidents. It's just kind of like what's happening. 369 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: But if we can start to be more intentional, whether 370 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 3: that's more intentional with the respect to reaching out and 371 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 3: reconnecting with people, or more intentional about letting people go, 372 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 3: because we all, no matter who you are, right, we 373 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 3: all have a fixed amount of time in the day, 374 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: and so it's are you going to invest in relationships 375 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: that are positive, that bring you joy or maybe you 376 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 3: know you may be helpful, or are you going to 377 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: invest in worrying about you know, you're grumpy coworker or 378 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 3: your aunt or your neighbor who's just constantly a nuisance. 379 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: So what have you done in your own life? 380 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: Like when you feel like, okay, it's it's time to 381 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: time to kind of sever this tie, particularly with someone 382 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: that's a strong tie. 383 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 3: Like I think it's like just a conversation based around 384 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 3: the idea that this isn't good for either of us, 385 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 3: and a lot of times there's also an opportunity to 386 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 3: just change the where you're investing your energy the time 387 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: the time that it's refocusing on just allocation of time. 388 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: But I think it's simply like a conversation about like, 389 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of I appreciated about this, 390 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: but it's I don't think it's in either of our 391 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: best interests time just to move and grow. 392 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: Now on the flip side, in terms of growing on 393 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: network or regrowing network thanks to COVID, Like, I think 394 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: a lot about you know, Like I'm a forty three 395 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: year old female, and I think about the process of 396 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: making new friends because earlier in life, you know, there's 397 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: all these opportunities to make new friends, like at school 398 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: and university or college and so forth. 399 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: But like I. 400 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: Always wonder, like, you know, at my age, how does 401 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: one go about making new friends? And I want to 402 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: know for you, like what's your process for making a 403 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: new friend? 404 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: Why it's so easy, as you mentioned, like why it's 405 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 3: so easy to make friends in college in particular, Right, 406 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: I always find it interesting to ask people to, you know, 407 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: write down the five people non family members that you're 408 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: closest to and then in the next column, like write 409 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 3: down or think about where you met them, And it's 410 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 3: almost always in organizations or institutions, And particularly if you 411 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 3: think about college or school, they have all the magic 412 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: ingredients for already made relationship, right there's a common shared identity, 413 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 3: there's coordinated social activities, and you have a lot of 414 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: free time. And so when I think about how if 415 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 3: I need to build or want to build new relationships, 416 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: the idea is to try to think about, Okay, how 417 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: can I find those common ingredients, And almost always it's 418 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: right joining it being a joiner, so trying to figure 419 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 3: out a new area or a new interest or a 420 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 3: new passion and then joining a group of other people 421 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: who are interested, and that common identity and shared interest 422 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: really helps for relationships accelerate. 423 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: In form that's interesting like something I've found why my 424 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: daughter is in near too at school, and I felt 425 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: like the school moms would be this new social network 426 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: for me, and it just hasn't panned out like that. 427 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: Like granted, I work full time and and I'm not 428 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: at every pick up and drop off. I'm at, you know, 429 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: maybe about half or so every week, and I just 430 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: haven't found that kind of. 431 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: Social clique, but I'm determined to like break through. What 432 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: advice would you give me to help do that? 433 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't have any answers to that. I have 434 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 3: the same issue myself. I mean, it's it's that piece 435 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 3: the school parent friends is really difficult because those are 436 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 3: your kids friends. They're not your friends, and so this 437 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: notion of finding a common interest or shareground, it's really 438 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: hard to move beyond the kids. And so I think 439 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: that understanding for me, that's the purpose of those relationships 440 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: is like, they're really my kids friends. I just need 441 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 3: to be nice enough that my kid has play dates. 442 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 3: But for me to find in any relationship, right if 443 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 3: it's that one or at work, I always try to 444 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 3: remind myself, like, the goal isn't like that I need 445 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 3: to like everyone or everyone needs to like me, but 446 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: there just needs to be mutual respect. And so that's 447 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: how I focus on that. That's my approach to those 448 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: types of relationships. And then I'm like, oh, I'll find 449 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 3: my friends with they're weird sense of humor, right, like 450 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: quirky things like outside my kid's school. 451 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: That makes me feel so much better about like feeling 452 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: like a bit of a failure with you know, forming. 453 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: Really really good connections with the school moms. It's interesting. 454 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: I formed, you know, a few new close friendships in 455 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: my adult life, and I formed one recently in the 456 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: last six months with this wonderful woman called me and 457 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: we've got quite a lot in common. And I said, 458 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: of I've been trying to unpack what has actually turned 459 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 1: someone that I didn't know like six months ago into 460 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: someone that feels like a really good friend now. And 461 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: I feel like the frequency of our catch ups has 462 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: certainly helped. But I guess, like, what what are the 463 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: things Once you've joined something, you found someone with common interest, 464 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: how do you actually then go about turning someone that 465 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: you feel like you're clicking with into an actual friendship. 466 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: What's been your process that you've gone through in your 467 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: own life. 468 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 3: I think a defining demarcation and relationship is when you 469 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: become willing to ask for help from someone. And because 470 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 3: it's the hard I say one of the defining differences 471 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 3: between a casual acquaintance and a real friend is would 472 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: you turn to them at a time of need. And 473 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 3: why that's important is when it shows vulnerability, but it 474 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: also shows trust to the other person and even today, 475 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: for instance, our car broke down, and like, I had 476 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 3: a neighbor who's like, are they a neighbor? Are they 477 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: a friend? And we had to call them for help? 478 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 3: And that I think is actually a turning point at 479 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: least in that's a turning point in the relationship. And 480 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 3: a lot of people I think are really reluctant to 481 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 3: ask for help in general. And one of the things 482 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 3: that I find helpful in this regard is to realize 483 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 3: that actually asking someone from help for help help is 484 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: really a gift because it allows them to have a 485 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 3: sense of purpose, It allows them to feel a sense 486 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 3: of mastery, and it also allows them to get outside 487 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: of themselves. And I think it's the heart of human 488 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: connection is really the mutual the ability to help one 489 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 3: another and mutual help. And so that for me is 490 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 3: one of the key ways of knowing, right if I'm 491 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 3: really friends with someone or am I just a casual acquaintance. 492 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: Is that like potentially a way to fast track a 493 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: friendship by almost asking for help when you feel a 494 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable asking for help. 495 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: Yes, it also is showing parts of yourself that you 496 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily want, right, like people to see. So the 497 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 3: heart rate of trust is also vulnerability, and so there's 498 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 3: a question, right of does trust comforst or does vulnerability 499 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 3: come first? And I think it's it's kind of both. 500 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 3: It's a mutually reinforcing process. But you can really fast 501 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: track a relationship by being willing to either ask primarily 502 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 3: by being willing to ask for help, but also you 503 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 3: necessarily need to be willing to give it. 504 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: There are they other tricks that you use for fast tracking, 505 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, like relationships or intimacy. 506 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: In that regard. 507 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: The other piece is related to this, which is just 508 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: allowing people to see aspects of yourself, particularly the less 509 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 3: perfect aspects. So I feel like so much of what 510 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 3: happens on social media in the external world is trying 511 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: to present this perfect image of ourself, but no one 512 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 3: really looks or lives like that. And by allowing people 513 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 3: to see, like, oh, this is how it really is, 514 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 3: that that is a way of fostering authentic connection. 515 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: I feel like we can't have a conversation about networks 516 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: without talking about social media, And I'd love to know 517 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: what's your approach to use seeing social media to build 518 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: or faster or nurture your own networks. 519 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 3: I try to avoid it as much as possible. It 520 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 3: gets back to this question. It's often a substitute for 521 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: really connecting with people, and social media is actually helpful 522 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 3: for reinforcing existing sets of relationships. It's also helpful for 523 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 3: building familiarity. We know that there's something called the mirror 524 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 3: exposure effects. So the more you see something, whether that's 525 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: a face or a symbol or a product, the more 526 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: you like it. And so another thing that social media 527 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: is good for is simply people will start to think 528 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: they like you if they see you more. So that 529 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: can also be an out of benefit of social media. 530 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 3: But the truth is we all because of this limited 531 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: amount of time, we have to choose where we're going 532 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 3: to invest it. And for me, the investment always pays 533 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: off when I'm actually being more present with the people 534 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 3: that are physically around me than it is when I'm online. 535 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: So that's really interesting. 536 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: Like one thing I wonder about LinkedIn, which is probably 537 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: the social network that I would invest most time and 538 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: energy into, should I be accepting connections from people that 539 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: I don't know on LinkedIn? 540 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 3: My answer is yes. I actually, of all the platforms, 541 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot to be said for 542 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 3: LinkedIn because there's a can you know what you're there for? Right? 543 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: Like you're there to present a like a polished, a 544 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 3: professional version of yourself, and it's pretty clear what it's for. 545 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 3: So there's not this confusion that often happens in other 546 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: sites around right like what am I projecting versus who 547 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 3: I really am? Or what a message am I trying 548 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: to send? Like, it's very clear what's happening there, and 549 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 3: I don't I'm in there. I think there's no real 550 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: drawback to expanding your community and having the opportunity to 551 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: reach new ideas, And that's also one of the things 552 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: that's been really powerful about There is a I would 553 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: say a powerful positive of social media is that we 554 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 3: actually tend to interact with people who are far more 555 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 3: diverse on platforms. So research on LinkedIn has shown that 556 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 3: this is true. So you can have connections that are 557 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 3: far more diverse in online than you necessarily would in 558 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: real life. So I would say go for it, right, 559 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: you never know who you're going to bump into or 560 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: what new ideas they may have. 561 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you have a weekly networking ritual. 562 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that? 563 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: So we know that there's extraordinary power in our existing networks, 564 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 3: and arguably the thing that you can do to benefit 565 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 3: your network the most is to reinvigorate connections. And based 566 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 3: on work that was done on something called dormantize, so 567 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: people that you have not seen in two or three years. 568 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: Research that was done by Dan Levin, who's a professor 569 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: at R and his colleagues. They were curious about what 570 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 3: are the benefits of these types of connections, and so 571 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 3: they ask people to make a list of ten current 572 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 3: connections and ten people that they haven't reached out to 573 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: in two or three years, and then ask people to 574 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 3: reach out to them for advice about a current project. 575 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: And what they found is these ties, dormant ties were 576 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: extraordinarily powerful and both they provide new, more creative ideas 577 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: in existing contexts, but also the trust endured within those relationships, 578 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 3: so they were really enjoyable. So I have taken this 579 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: and turned it into a practice where I write down 580 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 3: two or three people and on Fridays I reach out 581 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: to them just to say, hey, I'm thinking about you. 582 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 3: There's often sometimes I will have and ask or something 583 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: I'm hoping to get out of it, like I be back, 584 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 3: or just I may have a question but most of 585 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 3: the time it's just hey, I'm thinking about you, and 586 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 3: that for me has been both a source of great joy, 587 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 3: but it's also been extraordinarily helpful. 588 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: So in terms of what you say, like, it might 589 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: just be general I'm thinking about you, what some what 590 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: are some other examples of I guess things that you've like, 591 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: reasons to reach out to someone that you've used. 592 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, I like to think of this like, 593 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: there are three different ways of approaching this, and oftimes 594 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 3: there are people are like, oh my god, isn't this 595 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 3: going to be awkward? First, so to just to say, 596 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 3: I promise it's not. And the more you do it, 597 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 3: the more you realize, like, oh, this is actually great. 598 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 3: It's also helpful for me to imagine myself being in 599 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 3: the other person's shoes. So if I imagine, like, oh, 600 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 3: if I received this email, wouldn't I be happy to 601 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: get it? And the answer is almost always yes. So 602 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 3: I find that piece first helpful. So imagine now that 603 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 3: you've gotten over the awkwardness. I always find it helpful 604 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: to think of, right, are there three different ways that 605 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 3: I can do this that I know will help increase 606 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 3: social connection and also just make for a positive interaction. 607 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 3: The first is simply to thank someone. We know that 608 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 3: gratitude is a extremely powerful as a source of connection. 609 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 3: So I may think of is there someone who was 610 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: a mentor like this is who comes to mind right now? 611 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 3: Is there a mentor or someone who gave me a 612 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 3: piece of advice a couple of years ago, or someone 613 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 3: when I was little right they served as a role model, 614 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: and just simply to reach out to them and thank 615 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,720 Speaker 3: them for what they've done. So that's one easy way 616 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 3: that's always always positive. I mean, these are all always positive, 617 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 3: but it's just so nice. The second is to think 618 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 3: about what I can give. It can be as simple as, hey, 619 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 3: I saw this article or I was listening to this podcast. 620 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 3: I thought you might like it. There are lots of 621 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 3: things that we all have to give, particularly in this 622 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 3: moment when people are so starved for social connection. Just 623 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 3: saying like I'm thinking of you is in many ways 624 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 3: a gift. But there are lots and lots of things 625 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 3: that we have to give if we just start to 626 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 3: think a little bit broader. And then the final is 627 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 3: we were discussing previously. It's just simply to ask for help, 628 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 3: which in many ways can be a gift of itself. 629 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: So do you find that most people are writing back 630 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: to you when you reach out in that way? 631 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 3: Almost always? I can't even think of a time when 632 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 3: they have it. 633 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: Wow. 634 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: And so you're doing this every week, Like, if you 635 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: look back over the last year, what would you say 636 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: the impact has been for. 637 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 2: You of really sticking to this weekly ritual. 638 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 3: So, I mean, particularly during the past year, it's been 639 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 3: a lifesaver in the sense that it has allowed me 640 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 3: to feel connected during moments when I don't feel is 641 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 3: connected as I possibly could be. My husband also does 642 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 3: this and is really a nudge about doing it, and 643 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: he found he wasn't looking for a job, but he 644 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 3: ended up getting the job he had always wanted, working 645 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: exactly with the people he wanted to work with, which 646 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 3: was a game changer for our family. And I mean, 647 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 3: it's just it makes me feel like a deeper sense 648 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 3: of connection to my community. And I think there's no 649 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 3: greater gift than that. 650 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: I love it. 651 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: Are there any other habits or rituals that you've tried 652 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: to help maintain a healthy network. 653 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 3: The biggest thing for me is also just realizing in 654 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 3: any given moment, So I tend towards I tend towards 655 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: being thinking I'm really socially awkward, which makes me not 656 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 3: want to engage with other people. And we know that 657 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 3: this is common. Right, So most people think that they're 658 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 3: better than average at most things, so they think they're 659 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 3: smarter than average, or they are better drivers than average. 660 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 3: But when it comes to social interaction, we know that 661 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: we consistently underestimate how much people like us. So there's 662 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: great research by Erica boothby showing this, and for me, 663 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 3: one of the things that a practice I don't I 664 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 3: wouldn't callut a ritual, but a practice that I try 665 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: to keep in mind is that I'm far underestimating how 666 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 3: much the other person truly wants to connect. And by 667 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 3: reframing that and focusing on like, we as humans all 668 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,479 Speaker 3: really deeply want to connect and we all really want 669 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 3: social interaction to go smoothly, and by reframing that, it's 670 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 3: made it far more easier to navigate the everyday social 671 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 3: interactions than it was before. 672 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: Now, Marissa, my final question for you, for people that 673 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: want to connect with you in some way and get 674 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: the hands on social chemistry, what is the best way 675 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: for people to do that? 676 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 3: You can learn more about me and my work at 677 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 3: Marissa King dot com and I'd love to connect with 678 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 3: you on LinkedIn, whether you know them or not exactly. 679 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for your time, Marissa. It 680 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: is very absolutely fascinating. 681 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 3: It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me. 682 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. 683 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: But if you haven't hit subscribe or follow wherever you're 684 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: listening to this from, you might want to do that. 685 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: Next week, I have Victoria Devine on the show. She 686 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: is the host of She's on the Money, a podcast 687 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: which is downloaded over one million times every month, and 688 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: we are talking about how do you build a community 689 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: of fans, which Victoria has done an amazing job of, 690 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: and we'll also be going into a little bit of 691 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: financial advice. How I Work is produced by Inventing with 692 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this 693 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: episode was the amazing Jenna Koda, and thank you to 694 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: Martin Imba who did the audio mix and makes everything 695 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: sound better than it would have otherwise. 696 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 2: See you next time.