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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line is Robin Lambley, the

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Speaker 1: Independent member for our Lun.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Robin, Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 3: Robin.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you just heard me read that

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Speaker 1: out yesterday afternoon, a poor fourteen year old boy in

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Speaker 1: our a lun threatened with an edged weapon before having

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Speaker 1: his bike stolen from him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I heard about that yesterday afternoon. It's horrendous.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what can I say? It's just ongoing and

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Speaker 3: you know that will forever affect the mental state of

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Speaker 3: that poor young teenager. So yeah, yeah, o Katie. It's

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Speaker 3: just another story of something that you just shouldn't be happening.

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Speaker 1: Another victim of Northern Territory crime and it's appalling.

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Speaker 2: We've all had a gutfull of it.

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Speaker 1: We've all absolutely had enough, and you know, it makes

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Speaker 1: me really sad when I think about a fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old having something like that happened, because, as you've just said, Robin,

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Speaker 1: the ongoing impact is actually massive and you know, and

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Speaker 1: like I think to myself right now, my son's saving

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Speaker 1: up for a bike, a mountain bike. They cost a

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Speaker 1: heck of a lot of money and if this fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old, I don't know what his circumstances are.

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Speaker 2: But if you've saved up, put your.

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Speaker 1: Heart earned cash into buying yourself something like that, then

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Speaker 1: to have three thugs steal it from you is actually appalling.

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Speaker 3: It is appalling. I know the family that this boy

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Speaker 3: comes from, a really great local Alice Springs family, and

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Speaker 3: I think what you just said then probably sums up

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Speaker 3: the circumstances of that family, hard working, never got anything

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Speaker 3: for nothing, and discars that this incident could possibly leave

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Speaker 3: this kid with just horrendous. Yeah, it's awful, but you

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Speaker 3: know this is just an ongoing narrative, isn't it, of

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Speaker 3: crime affecting each and every one of us in different ways?

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Speaker 3: I mean yes, Today during budget estimates hearings, we had

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Speaker 3: this quite bewildering display by the Chief Minister talking about

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Speaker 3: how she has to spend all this money on addressing

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Speaker 3: crime in our community. And I sat there for hours, Katie, thinking,

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Speaker 3: this is a government that has watched crime increase incrementally

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Speaker 3: year on year every year for years now, arguably at

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Speaker 3: least five, if not the whole entire eight years, and

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Speaker 3: we're meant to thank the government for having to spend

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Speaker 3: a huge amount of money that they have to borrow

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Speaker 3: on might add to fix a crime crisis that they've created.

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Speaker 3: Why didn't they prevent it in the first place. I

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Speaker 3: know these things are happening all over the place, but

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Speaker 3: I truly believe going back five years, if this government

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Speaker 3: would have sat back and listened to people like meat

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Speaker 3: w engine carry on, we wouldn't be in this position

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Speaker 3: that we're in now. So, Katie, I have a lot

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Speaker 3: of resentment and anger towards this government for allowing it

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Speaker 3: to happen in the first place. Prevention has always better

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Speaker 3: than cure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, do you know what.

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Speaker 1: I don't blame you, Robin, and I know I've been

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Speaker 1: speaking about it till I'm blue in the face as well.

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Speaker 1: I think we've both been pretty rowdy when you talk

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Speaker 1: about crime, and it's incredibly frustrating that it's still the

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Speaker 1: number one issue that people are dealing with.

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Speaker 2: Robin, can I ask?

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Speaker 1: I know that you'd raised some concerns earlier in the

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Speaker 1: week about the fact that the Estimate's hearings are the

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Speaker 1: ultimate opportunity for non government members to scrutinize the operation

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Speaker 1: and financial management of ministers and their government agencies. You'd felt, though,

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Speaker 1: that the process may not be as open and transparent

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Speaker 1: as previous years because we're in a situation where we've

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Speaker 1: got former ministers who are chairing and deputy chairing the

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Speaker 1: process over the next couple of weeks.

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Speaker 3: So this is a two week it's a really special

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Speaker 3: opportunity for people who don't know what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: It's two weeks of one by one having a minister

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Speaker 3: found a committee, a parliamentary committee for hours and hours

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Speaker 3: and hours. Today Chancey Paig the Deputy Chief Ministers up

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Speaker 3: for seven hours. Yesterday it was the Chief Minister for

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Speaker 3: eight hours. This is a parliamentary committee that nowhere else

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Speaker 3: would it be run by the government scrutinizing the government,

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Speaker 3: but here in the Northern Territory, because we're so special

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Speaker 3: in the Northern Territory. You have the chair, the former

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Speaker 3: Chief Minister, Natasha Files, and the deputy chair, the former

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Speaker 3: Deputy Chief Minister Nicole manisteron basically operating this scrutiny process

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Speaker 3: whereby the committee asked questions of the government. I was

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Speaker 3: threatened to be thrown out this morning by the former

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Speaker 3: Chief Minister because I was asking questions and defying her

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Speaker 3: ruling around a certain line of questioning put to the

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Speaker 3: Attorney General Chancey Paig. He didn't want to answer it.

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Speaker 3: She came with the subtext as to why he did

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Speaker 3: have to answer it, and I challenged it, and I

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Speaker 3: challenged it quite aggressively, I suppose. And so I'm on

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Speaker 3: a warning. If I open my mouth again, I'll be

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Speaker 3: out in my ear. This is a scrutiny process of government,

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Speaker 3: and you've got a former Chief Minister threatening to throw

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Speaker 3: me out and stop me from questioning her government on

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Speaker 3: issues that matter for Territorians. It's just absurd, Katie. It's

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Speaker 3: so wrong. The Tashaphiles and Madison have such an obvious

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Speaker 3: conflict of interest and yet here we are clown town. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's not incredible.

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Speaker 1: It is like it is really disappointing, because the fact

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Speaker 1: is it is a situation where you and the opposition

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Speaker 1: are trying to get to the bottom of different issues

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Speaker 1: that territori ands care about, just out of interest. What

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Speaker 1: were you trying to get to the bottom of this morning,

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Speaker 1: Robin when you got your warning?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so the Chersey Paig was being questioned about treaty

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Speaker 3: and as we all know, well if you followed this

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Speaker 3: issue during the Voice referendum, the whole treaty exercise in

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Speaker 3: the Northern Territory was suspended for about I'll say about

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Speaker 3: eighteen months two years. So we got the report and

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Speaker 3: then they suspended everything for about two years, and now

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Speaker 3: they've just started it up again because of course we're

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Speaker 3: coming to an election and it's probably vote winning to

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Speaker 3: some extent of the Labor government in some circles. So

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Speaker 3: Steve Edgington asked a question how much did the report costs?

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Speaker 3: And File said, well, you don't have to answer that

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Speaker 3: because that was two or three years ago. And my line,

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Speaker 3: my angle was, well, you know it is relevant because

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Speaker 3: it was suspended a couple of years ago. Let's recap

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Speaker 3: on where we are, where we were two years ago

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Speaker 3: in lieu of where we are now, it's entirely relevant.

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Speaker 3: And in most other estimates hearings, it's perfectly okay to

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Speaker 3: reflect to a certain extent and what has happened in

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Speaker 3: the past to inform the present. But no, Natasha Files

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Speaker 3: didn't like that and warn me that she would throw

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Speaker 3: me out, and I said, well, you just go for

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Speaker 3: you for that girl, you know, let's see where that

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Speaker 3: takes you, you know, throwing out someone for asking questions

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Speaker 3: if they don't want to answer.

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Speaker 2: It is a bit ridiculous, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and look, you know, Rob, and I know

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Speaker 1: you can get fired up as can I. But you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a couple of minutes out here on the on

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Speaker 1: the blow with me, might might you know?

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Speaker 2: Calm things sound?

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Speaker 3: My thanks Katie, you provided much needed therapy for me.

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Speaker 3: I'll go back in there and tear one off a

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Speaker 3: minon it.

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Speaker 1: Robin.

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Speaker 3: What I did get fired up, but so do I.

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Speaker 1: It's all part of it, absolutely well. And you're in

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Speaker 1: there to ask those questions. You know, I can understand that.

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Speaker 2: Robin.

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Speaker 1: What are you what are you keen to really try

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of over the next couple

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Speaker 1: of days. I mean, what are some big issues in

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Speaker 1: your eyes that you would like to really try to

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Speaker 1: sort of flesh out over the coming days.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to estimates, well, I protested it's one day, one, sorry,

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Speaker 3: one by one, because it's quite overwhelming. So yesterday we

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Speaker 3: had a really full on day with the Chief Minister

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Speaker 3: talking of course, about kas about racism in the public service,

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Speaker 3: about debt, about their huge infrastructure spend. So today we're

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Speaker 3: looking at the Deputy Chief Minister who's responsible for Aboriginal affairs,

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Speaker 3: which is a huge part of every aspect of our

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Speaker 3: life here in the Northern Territory. He's also responsible for correction.

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Speaker 3: So I guess that's where I'll be hoping to ask

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Speaker 3: a few interesting questions. Given that our prison system is

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Speaker 3: so overburdened. They've committed to build more prisons in the

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Speaker 3: coming couple of years. One in Alice Springs, a prison farm.

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Speaker 3: There's look, the list is endless.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a law, there's so much. There is so much.

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Speaker 3: And I guess I love estimates because you know, there's

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Speaker 3: always something really unbelievable revealed in impressing them and grilling

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Speaker 3: them for so many hours. They always, the ministers always

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Speaker 3: reveal something that is quite astounding.

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Speaker 2: And you, Rober and I love that absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Hey, before I let you go this morning, I know

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Speaker 1: that that there was certainly you'd raise some concerns, as

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Speaker 1: you've touched on there about about the Eykak in the

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Speaker 1: context of the travel of former Chief Minister Michael Gunner.

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Speaker 1: Now there have indeed been questions asked about whether that

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Speaker 1: money should.

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Speaker 2: Be paid back.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound as though they're going to pay that

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Speaker 1: money back, despite the fact that that travel happened throughout

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Speaker 1: caretaker mode at a time when it realistically should not

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Speaker 1: have happened, to the tune of about fourteen thousand and

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Speaker 1: one hundred dollars prior to the last Northern Territory election.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's they're saying that, you know, the government

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Speaker 1: obviously saying that the findings you know.

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Speaker 2: Well were unclear.

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Speaker 1: It's confusing when you see the likes of Anthony Albanezi

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Speaker 1: and Peter Dutton flying around in government planes during an

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Speaker 1: election campaign. Federal politicians will travel during caretaker periods. She says,

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Speaker 1: She's updated those NT guidelines to provide clarity and there

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Speaker 1: would be no government traveled during the caretaker period except

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Speaker 1: for emergencies.

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Speaker 2: I mean, does that go far enough?

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Speaker 3: No, Katie, it doesn't look this is this is really

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Speaker 3: offensive on so many levels. Gunner flew in and this

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Speaker 3: is in the IK Commissioner's reports was tabled a few

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Speaker 3: weeks ago. He acknowledged that Gunner, the former Chief Minister,

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Speaker 3: flew in to three remote communities on polling day, that

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Speaker 3: that was planned and there's text in the report say

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Speaker 3: that very very clear. Yet he goes on to then say, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if mister Gunner realized that that was

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Speaker 3: political campaigning or not. And that's what the current Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister is holding on to the fact that the Ikak

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Speaker 3: Commissioner failed to reach a conclusion that Gunner actually knew

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Speaker 3: that that's exactly what he was doing, traveling on taxpayer

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Speaker 3: funds to three remote communities on polling day, alleging that

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Speaker 3: he wasn't probably quite sure whether or not that was

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Speaker 3: campaigning or not. I mean, that's just plain offensive and

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Speaker 3: that's what I ripped into either law or about yesterday.

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Speaker 3: Come on, either, are you stupid? This is politics? One

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Speaker 3: oh one. I mean Dutton and Albow cruising around during

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Speaker 3: caretaker period, they might get away with that to some extent.

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Speaker 3: But for any minister, no matter who they are paying,

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Speaker 3: using taxpayer resources and funds to go anywhere on polling day,

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Speaker 3: go to the polling booths themselves, stand there and interact

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Speaker 3: with voter as Gunner did, is just well it's offensive

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Speaker 3: to even complate or suggest that it's nothing but what

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Speaker 3: it is, and that is a misuse of taxpayers money.

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Speaker 2: So I think it should be paid back.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday, Are you going to pay that money back? And

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Speaker 3: she said no a couple of times, very firmly, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: because the Ikak Commissioner failed to reach a conclusion on that.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think it should be paid back. But Robin,

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Speaker 1: I do want to ask you about one other thing

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Speaker 1: before I let you go. There are renewed calls, according

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Speaker 1: to a report on Sky News this morning, for the

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Speaker 1: board of Australia's largest Indigenous legal agency to be sacked

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Speaker 1: following allegations it appointed a known domestic violence offender as

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Speaker 1: its chair.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The Australian newspaper was yesterday reporting that Hugh Woodbury was

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Speaker 1: appointed chair of the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency NAJA

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Speaker 1: in March, almost four years after he pleaded guilty to

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Speaker 1: serious domestic violence offenses in Alice Springs. The revelations in

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Speaker 1: the Australian newspaper follow bitter dispute between the board's former

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Speaker 1: chair and former chief executive, and that has obviously been

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Speaker 1: subject of ongoing legal action in the Federal Court. Now

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Speaker 1: Darwin barrister John Lawrence sc a former Principal solicitor for

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Speaker 1: NAJA and former head of the Anti Criminal Lawyers Association,

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Speaker 1: has told Sky News that the board needs to be removed.

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Speaker 2: What is your take, Katie.

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Speaker 3: I read this story in The Australian yesterday because like

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Speaker 3: about a week ago when I read it, but it

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Speaker 3: was yesterday. The circumstances that were described of that man

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Speaker 3: assaulting his wife were horrendous and I just think about

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Speaker 3: how that woman and her family feel about seeing that

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Speaker 3: man now at the head of NAJA. He's got to go.

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Speaker 2: Well, Robin Lamley, we will leave it there. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: As always, we may end up talking again throughout the week.

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Speaker 1: I can tell it's going to be a busy one.

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Speaker 2: Thank you my pleasure, Katie, but thank you