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Speaker 1: Gooday, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Being able to

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Speaker 1: think for yourself, Being able to think critically, being able

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Speaker 1: to be aware of your biases, the flaws in your perceptions,

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Speaker 1: the way that you're seeing things is something that is

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Speaker 1: increasingly absent, unfortunately, according to research, and for us as adults,

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Speaker 1: as parents, as business owners, as employees, whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that we're doing, being able to think for ourselves makes

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Speaker 1: life better. All too often we just act as repeaters.

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Speaker 1: We just say what we've heard somebody else say because

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Speaker 1: it sounded intelligent, and therefore we think if we say

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Speaker 1: what they're saying, then we must be intelligent because they

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Speaker 1: seemed intelligent when they said it. And is that really

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Speaker 1: working for us in the age of social media? In fact,

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Speaker 1: in the age of AI, I would argue that it's

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Speaker 1: a bit of a concern today. As special guest on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, Michael Parker. Michael is an author.

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Speaker 1: He's written a couple of books, including one It's on

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Speaker 1: My Bookshelves, and he's the head master of Newington College

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Speaker 1: in Sydney. I'm going to talk to him in just

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Speaker 1: a second about his brand new book called Thinking for Yourself.

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Speaker 1: I have no doubt this will be provocative, helpful for

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Speaker 1: us as adults, but also helpful us in our conversations

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Speaker 1: with our children as they are increasingly told not how

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Speaker 1: to think, but what to think. Stay with us, that's

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Speaker 1: coming up next. Hi, Welcome to The Happy Family his

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Speaker 1: podcast Real Parenting Solutions, every day on Australia's most downloaded

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Speaker 1: parenting podcast. My name is doctor Justin Coulson and today

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Michael Parker. Michael is the head master

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Speaker 1: at Newington College in Sydney. He has a master's degree

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Speaker 1: in teaching philosophy to children and is the author of

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Speaker 1: seven well now eight books. Before being at Newington, he

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Speaker 1: was also the head master of Oxley College in the

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Speaker 1: Southern Highlands of New South Wales. And it's a real

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Speaker 1: delight to have you with me today, Michael, thanks for

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Speaker 1: being here.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. So.

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Speaker 1: I want to start off with this idea of thinking

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Speaker 1: for yourself. Where did the idea come from? How did

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Speaker 1: you decide that a book about it needed to be written?

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Speaker 1: Is this because of what you're seeing in schools? Is

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Speaker 1: it because of the conversations that you're having with I

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Speaker 1: think Newington has been in the news recently because a

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Speaker 1: lot of adults are convinced that Newington shouldn't go through

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Speaker 1: a transition that it's about to go through. Where did

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Speaker 1: this come from?

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Speaker 3: In one sense, it came about sort of seven or

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Speaker 3: eight years ago. Where we were looking at it was

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Speaker 3: a combination of social media. It was looking at the

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Speaker 3: way in which people were getting more and more extreme,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people in the world getting more and

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Speaker 3: more extreme in their views, and it just seemed harder

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Speaker 3: to be for Bill without the talk to each other,

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Speaker 3: harder to feel without the rationalized, harder to be able

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Speaker 3: to think the other side. So we just let's put

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Speaker 3: together all the stuff that makes up good thinking. It's

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Speaker 3: almost like a bit of a recipe book, and you've

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Speaker 3: got all those ingredients there. You can learn about them,

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Speaker 3: you understand that needs like a couple of minutes to

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Speaker 3: take in each and you mix them all around.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: If every person the flavor of the taste is going

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Speaker 3: to be the same, but at least every he goes

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Speaker 3: this is.

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Speaker 2: What good thinking looks like.

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Speaker 3: It will help you make a decision, I will help

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Speaker 3: you able to talk to my kids, will be able

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Speaker 3: to help have those conversations with my kids and yeah,

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Speaker 3: and make.

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Speaker 2: Good decisions as well. So that's that's where it came from.

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Speaker 1: Michael. We live at a culture that really rewards individuals,

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Speaker 1: in other words, being able to think for yourself. There

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Speaker 1: are there are other cultures that are extremely collectivist and

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Speaker 1: reward conformity. Both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages.

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Speaker 1: What I'm curious about is this, what is our education

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Speaker 1: system rewarding right now, conformity or critical thinking.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of education says it rewards individuality

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Speaker 3: and rewards the individual response.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that comes out of discussion.

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Speaker 3: I do think in the general system there's still a

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Speaker 3: lot of we we know what we want to read

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Speaker 3: at the end, and we know what we want you

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Speaker 3: to produce, and we know what a good essay looks

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Speaker 3: like and so on.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, So I think.

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Speaker 3: That the aspirations to be very, very individualist is more

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Speaker 3: than what ends up happening at the other end.

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Speaker 1: Thinking about what you're just saying now, Michael, I'm reminded

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Speaker 1: of something that I often say when I'm running my presentations,

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Speaker 1: and that is that one of the most valuable skills

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Speaker 1: we can give to our children is the ability to

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Speaker 1: stand in front of an audience and prosecute an argument,

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Speaker 1: to be able to stand up and argue their point

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Speaker 1: of view, and to do it effectively. I'm not arguing

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Speaker 1: that debate should be compulsory in school, although I think

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Speaker 1: that it probably would be kind of handy if more

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Speaker 1: kids knew how to do that. But that capacity to

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Speaker 1: do so, like thinking said Henry Ford, is one of

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Speaker 1: the hardest things there is to do, which is probably

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Speaker 1: why so few people do it. That's paraphrased. But if

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Speaker 1: you're going to argue that we've got to be able

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Speaker 1: to think for ourselves, which is what the book is about,

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Speaker 1: to me, that means that we've got to be able

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Speaker 1: to You can't think well if you can't write well

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Speaker 1: and can't speak well, because writing and speaking demand a

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Speaker 1: degree of specificity and articulation. That means you're thinking has

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Speaker 1: to be clear. Yes, when it comes to creating clear thinking,

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Speaker 1: What are our biggest impediments? Because I would argue that

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Speaker 1: not only children today, but people at a fairly general

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Speaker 1: level aren't engaging what i'd consider to be deep thinking

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Speaker 1: and profound thinking and switch turning on life changing thinking.

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Speaker 1: What are the obstacles to really deep, thoughtful, considered thinking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the first is attention span, and probably the second

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Speaker 3: is attention span as well.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I just got distracted what you're saying. The first

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Speaker 1: that was a joke because you were span. So we've

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Speaker 1: got attention span is the as a critical factor, a

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Speaker 1: critical stumbling block. It's funny to say that. I know

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Speaker 1: that there are others that you're going to mention as

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Speaker 1: challenges to deep thinking and thinking for yourself and critical thinking.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if you saw or not. But

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Speaker 1: recently John Burn Murdoch from The Financial Times published a

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Speaker 1: fascinating analysis of a study out of America. It's called

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Speaker 1: the Understanding America Study, and what he found is that

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Speaker 1: in the youngest generations at the moment, that is our

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Speaker 1: sixteen to thirty nine year old so we're talking about

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Speaker 1: our gen z's, it will certainly be jen alpha thingk

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Speaker 1: although they were't included in the study, but our gen

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Speaker 1: z's and our millennials has seen a dropping conscientiousness over

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Speaker 1: the last ten years, that is by magnitudes greater than

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Speaker 1: anything else, an increase in emotional instability otherwise known as neuroticism.

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Speaker 1: They've seen a drop in agreeableness, a drop an extraversion,

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Speaker 1: and they've seen distraction and carelessness rising exponentially. Perseverance has

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Speaker 1: fallen through the floor. So when I think about what

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Speaker 1: you've just described as the critical first barrier to deep thinking,

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Speaker 1: to thinking for yourself, what I'm really hearing is that

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Speaker 1: attention span, that capacity to just focus on one thing

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Speaker 1: you look at all the data seems to be pointing

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Speaker 1: in the same direction. That is that that first key

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Speaker 1: thing is is just it's not there anymore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, We've started the kids of it and my wife

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Speaker 3: and co author, Fiona It works with kids at university

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Speaker 3: for two hours how to go and says her biggest

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Speaker 3: job is to get them to attend and to stay

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Speaker 3: focused and to stay with it four hours, because that

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Speaker 3: is the biggest, the biggest skill there is. And of

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Speaker 3: course all of society is sending the opposite messages. We

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Speaker 3: cut things up smaller and smaller YouTube videos and TV

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Speaker 3: than you know, five second things for doom scrolling. I

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Speaker 3: actually sat behind somebody in a train yesterday and did

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Speaker 3: a bit of a like. I just did account of

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Speaker 3: how long she spent on each screen, and it was

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Speaker 3: an average of one and a half seconds.

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Speaker 2: Wow. And this was like dozens of screen games.

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Speaker 3: Right, And so if your leisure time is out of

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Speaker 3: mized like that, funnily enough, if as teachers and parents

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Speaker 3: we accept it and we don't stretch that attention and

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Speaker 3: go ah, we've all got to chop it up and

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Speaker 3: just smaller and smaller bits, and you know guys that

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Speaker 3: blend it and whatever, then again they're they're not getting

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Speaker 3: it from us. And as a result, you can't you

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Speaker 3: can't do the harder thinking because hard I think, as

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Speaker 3: you're saying, thinking, thinking can be hard. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 3: you've got to be able to sit there and do

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Speaker 3: it for for a good a good period of time.

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Speaker 3: There's no great quote. I think it's Bernard Russell. He

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Speaker 3: said many most people would rather die than think. In

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Speaker 3: fact they do.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was speaking to a school teacher just the

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Speaker 1: other day who said that a student had commented that

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Speaker 1: sometimes class is so boring that he just wants to

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Speaker 1: swipe up to the next screen.

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Speaker 2: The next teachers.

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Speaker 1: Just swipe up, next teacher, next teacher. Not not working

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Speaker 1: for me? Well he gets cool by amazing. What other

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Speaker 1: barriers to real thinking thinking for yourself exist other than

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Speaker 1: attention span, the ability to focus.

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Speaker 3: I think there's an invidious sense of influences and people

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Speaker 3: whose views they are getting monetizing making things show and

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Speaker 3: monetizing making things extreme and telling a really good, easy

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Speaker 3: story that people can just flow into, whether whether that's

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Speaker 3: about their gender, whether it's about their race, whatever, whatever

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Speaker 3: it is, and people can can just go, yeah, I can.

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Speaker 3: I can sink into this more extreme story and get

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Speaker 3: a little bit angry and it's yeah, and you get

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Speaker 3: you get a sense of I call it membership or

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Speaker 3: ownership or a sense of belonging by just being part

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Speaker 3: of that group and not not thinking about it, not

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Speaker 3: playing girl's advocate, not pushing against it, not doing that

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Speaker 3: that that hard work.

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Speaker 1: Identity politics. That's really what it is. Somebody is saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm part of this group, so therefore the group's done

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Speaker 1: the thinking for me. I'll just go along with what

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Speaker 1: the group is saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's right.

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Speaker 3: My my, my political party says it, or the the

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Speaker 3: influencers that I'm listening to says it.

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Speaker 2: So so I'm I'm going along with it. And you

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Speaker 2: can get that.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's this you know, I talk about two

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Speaker 3: different types. There, there's the there's the one who radicalizes

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Speaker 3: you and I'm thinking about the Andrew Takes.

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Speaker 2: Of the world and so on. And then there's the

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Speaker 2: influencers who who just.

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Speaker 3: Talk about really bland stuff really quickly. Uh and and

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Speaker 3: that takes you away from from deep and substantial thinking

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to Michael Parker. Michael is the head of

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Speaker 1: Newington College and has written a brand new book called

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Speaker 1: Thinking for Yourself, very focused on critical thinking. Michael, when

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Speaker 1: we think about other obstacles, one one thing that really

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Speaker 1: jumps out at me is just the biases. The way

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Speaker 1: that that great quote from Ann in we don't see

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Speaker 1: the world as it is, we see the world as

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Speaker 1: we are, tell me about the biases or the one

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Speaker 1: bias to rule them all. If there was one bias

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Speaker 1: that really impacted our thinking and our ability to think critically,

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Speaker 1: what would what would be The one that stands out

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Speaker 1: to you is most impactful, the one that's the greatest obstacle, The.

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Speaker 3: Most impactful one is probably confirmation bias.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was hoping you'd say that that confirms

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Speaker 1: everything that I believed. So, so you were right, I

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Speaker 1: was right along, that's right.

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Speaker 3: So and you've so good, I've got to be careful

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Speaker 3: with it. If there's an idea that comes from a

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Speaker 3: political party that I'm more aligned with, I go, yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a that's a that's a great idea. And if

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Speaker 3: I hear the same idea from the political party I

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Speaker 3: agree with less, I go, ah, I don't know about

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Speaker 3: that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's their agenda?

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Speaker 2: What are they getting?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Why are they saying that.

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Speaker 3: Once you've got a position, as I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people know you, you accumulate more data and more

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Speaker 3: things to confirm that story. And you're one of your

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Speaker 3: biases is you just shed information and you shed perspectives

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Speaker 3: that don't agree with it.

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Speaker 2: And it's so easy.

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Speaker 3: And as we as well as people more and more

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Speaker 3: get into their news echo chambers and their views echo

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Speaker 3: chambers and just talk to people who who agree with them, that.

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Speaker 2: That confirmation bias happens more and more.

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Speaker 3: And I try to make it a real point of

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Speaker 3: reading and listening to things that I disagree with and

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Speaker 3: looking for what a point of commonality is or what

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Speaker 3: I can learn from it because I'm disagreeing with it.

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Speaker 2: But it's hard.

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Speaker 3: It really is not the most interesting bias though I

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Speaker 3: can tell you about the most interesting one, Lafe.

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Speaker 1: Well let's say that one now, because they don't want

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Speaker 1: to step into a lightning round. And I mean lightning

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Speaker 1: rounds aren't known for provoking the deepest of thinking, but

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Speaker 1: they can certainly lead to provocative answers. What do you

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Speaker 1: think is the most interesting bias? And then we do

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Speaker 1: the lightning round.

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Speaker 3: Probably it's peak end by us, where the last part

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Speaker 3: of your experience takes on much more relevance or importance

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Speaker 3: in your head than the first partner. But it's the

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Speaker 3: way they found this out that was the most bizarre

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Speaker 3: they did. Yeah, it was decades ago. The researchers did

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Speaker 3: colonoscopy experiments. They got they got two groups.

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Speaker 1: Do you know I do. It's a terrible, terrible I mean,

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Speaker 1: they don't do colonoscary's this way anymore, thank goodness. But

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Speaker 1: it's a real pain in the butt, this story. But

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Speaker 1: tell it anyway.

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Speaker 3: The story is back in the days when it was

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Speaker 3: much more painful. They got the control group and they

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Speaker 3: just did the colin oscary win for about eight minutes.

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Speaker 3: And then they got another and it was quite painful,

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Speaker 3: and they got people to chart their pain from one

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Speaker 3: to ten and it was really quite painful in the

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Speaker 3: last couple of minutes up to eight. They got another

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Speaker 3: group and they did the whole colonoscope that took about

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Speaker 3: ten minutes and quite painful at the end. And then

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Speaker 3: they just kept jiggling around for about another ten minutes

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Speaker 3: so that the person kept enduring more pain for much

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Speaker 3: longer that the pain wasn't as extreme. And then and

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Speaker 3: those colin os s took twenty five minutes. And then

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Speaker 3: they asked both groups who felt more pain, and it

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Speaker 3: was that first group who finished with more extreme pain

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Speaker 3: that said they had more pain. The second group clearly

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Speaker 3: had more pain because they had all the pain of

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Speaker 3: the first ten minutes and an other fifteen minutes thrown

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Speaker 3: on top of it, but because the pain wasn't as

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Speaker 3: bad at the end, they registered that their whole experience

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Speaker 3: was less painful. So this just this says what happens

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Speaker 3: at the end is really important, and you can take

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Speaker 3: like a family. So if you're going on a family holiday,

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Speaker 3: you make sure the last couple of days is where

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Speaker 3: you've got the best accommodation, the best site, the best experiences,

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Speaker 3: because that's the.

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Speaker 2: Only bit that anyone's going to remember. So that's some

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Speaker 2: practical advice.

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Speaker 1: Love it. Okay, let's ste a lightning round. This is

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Speaker 1: ten seconds or less, really really quick short answers, provocative

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to be. I mean, some of these

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Speaker 1: questions are designed to be that way. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: hit you with just a handful of them, and I'd

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Speaker 1: love to get your thoughts on these issues around thinking

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Speaker 1: nice and quickly. They're they're related to kids and education.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it usually takes me about ten seconds just to

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Speaker 3: think anything, So anyway, I'll see how we go.

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Speaker 1: Let's see how we go. What's the one moment in

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Speaker 1: school where we accidentally teach kids not to think for themselves?

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Speaker 3: I want to say uniform hair, lateness or all those

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Speaker 3: procedural things.

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Speaker 1: Huh. What's the hardest age to teach independent thinking?

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Speaker 2: You're nine?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me why in one or two quick sentences.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're their most tribal there least impact of

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Speaker 3: their family, but not yet looking at the whole world.

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Speaker 2: They've just gone into what their friends think. And that's

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Speaker 2: that's something that makes you pray all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Love it absolutely Developmentally, I'm right there with you at

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Speaker 1: name one sacred in education that needs to be rethought,

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Speaker 1: but nobody's really thinking enough about it.

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Speaker 2: Subject.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I want to go deeper with you on

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Speaker 1: that one. It's a lightning round. I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: I've got I've got to break the rules to do it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not willing to. I won't rethink the rules.

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Speaker 1: I've got to come and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Not even doing ten sentence. I'm even doing ten seconds.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing it in one second.

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Speaker 1: You're doing so well your book in one sentence, stop

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Speaker 1: X and start? Why what would the X and Y be?

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Speaker 1: Even though the book is called Thinking for Yourself? Stop

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Speaker 1: X and start? Why?

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Speaker 3: Stop listening to the loudest and most extreme voices, Start

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Speaker 3: thinking for yourself?

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Speaker 1: Beautiful name of thinking? Skill that matters more than knowing

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Speaker 1: the capital of New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: That could be anything? Okay, thinking skill?

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Speaker 1: But is it that matters more than knowing some arbitrary

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Speaker 1: fact like the capital of New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: Playing Devil's Advocate?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, nice, excellent? Okay? Two more? Two more? Which

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Speaker 1: subject teachers thinking better at school and which one desperately

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Speaker 1: needs to rethink.

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Speaker 2: Philosophy is easily the best one?

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Speaker 1: Uh huh? And at hardly any schools are offering philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It's a big shame. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to chuck any department in it.

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Speaker 1: Come on, go out on a limb.

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Speaker 2: What needs to rethink maths?

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Speaker 1: You walk into a classroom, this is the last one

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Speaker 1: you walk into a classroom.

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Speaker 2: It's really bad. I really like our math's department or

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Speaker 2: our mastages.

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Speaker 1: Well, you walk into a classroom, what's the one thing

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Speaker 1: that you look for that tells you that kids are

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Speaker 1: actually thinking?

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Speaker 2: They're listening to each other?

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Speaker 1: Interesting? Interesting. The book is called Thinking for Yourself. The

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Speaker 1: book is by Michael Parker and his wife Fianna Morrison. Michael,

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Speaker 1: let's wrap this up with one last What I hope

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Speaker 1: is a thoughtful question AI in schools, technology generally, but

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Speaker 1: especially the explosion of AI in schools disaster for thinking

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Speaker 1: or opportunity for thinking.

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Speaker 3: In an ideal world, I think AI offers enormous potential speed, efficiencies,

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Speaker 3: but given the venalities and laziness of people, it is

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Speaker 3: I think going to end up being overwhelmingly in education

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Speaker 3: a problematic or even negative phenomenon. Because all of the

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Speaker 3: things that you do in things like if I can

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Speaker 3: use an essay as an example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the things that AI offers to do. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: that I'll write your whole essay for you, although it

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Speaker 2: does that too, But.

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Speaker 3: You can get really legitimate things that say, let me

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Speaker 3: help you get some ideas for this, let me help

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Speaker 3: brainstorm with you. And then it's a let me get

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Speaker 3: let me like they put together a first draft.

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Speaker 2: Let me they get together. I'm writing, yeps you and

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Speaker 2: so you do that.

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Speaker 3: Let me order your thoughts for you. So it does that,

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Speaker 3: let me help edit all your thoughts, so it does

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Speaker 3: get the final polished draft, let you know, and then

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Speaker 3: the grammar and whatever, and so bit by bit it

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Speaker 3: has done the whole thing, and it's got you know,

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Speaker 3: it's got all these sort of you know, nice names

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Speaker 3: like co pilot and stuff, which makes you feel like

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Speaker 3: you're still in control, but really it has done the

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Speaker 3: whole thing, and we're sort of tacitly said, yep, that's

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Speaker 3: that's okay, or it's not so problematic for it to

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Speaker 3: do that. And I think that you do that, you

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Speaker 3: know often enough, and you're not learning that. The kids

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Speaker 3: aren't learning the skills at least as adults.

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Speaker 2: We got to do it.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, if we get it, if we

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Speaker 3: get it to you know, write a paragraph for us.

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Speaker 2: At least we've written thousands of paragraphs.

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Speaker 3: They the kids are learning it, and they'll they'll they'll

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Speaker 3: they'll never learn it. All.

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Speaker 2: All they'll get is though you know, AI will do

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Speaker 2: the task for them.

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Speaker 3: And I keep thinking, it's like Tetris blocks, Like all

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Speaker 3: the bits of thinking, they're like closed Tetris blocks, so

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Speaker 3: you know how to move them around, but you don't

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Speaker 3: know what's in any of the boxes. You don't know

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Speaker 3: what the thinking is or how to do that thinking.

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Speaker 3: So I am very can concerned about the impact of

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Speaker 3: AI on education. I accept and agree that it's individualization

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Speaker 3: and it's potential to be a coach and so on.

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Speaker 3: Can get all sorts of kids in different less advantaged

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Speaker 3: educational environments. It can give them a huge turbo boost

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Speaker 3: because they've got all that attention for the first time.

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Speaker 2: But I've got a lot of concern So what do

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Speaker 2: you think?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for asking, Michael. There are two things that

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Speaker 1: stand out to me. The first is this, what is

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Speaker 1: the purpose of education? If education is about getting the

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Speaker 1: outcome having the essay written, then AI is fantastic. But

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Speaker 1: I don't see that as the purpose of education. I

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Speaker 1: see the purpose of education is helping children to learn

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Speaker 1: how to think, learn how to structure, learn how to

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Speaker 1: collect resources, learn how to collate ideas, learn how to brainstorm,

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Speaker 1: learn how to do that, because that will make the

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Speaker 1: more effective more. I mean, your book is called Thinking

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Speaker 1: for Yourself. That will help them to think for themselves.

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Speaker 1: AI does not for ceutate thinking for yourself. And the

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Speaker 1: second thought that I have is in line with what

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Speaker 1: the I guess the big tech industrial complex has done

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Speaker 1: for the last twenty years in Australia, and that is

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Speaker 1: that they've bordozed their way in. They've said, we've got

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Speaker 1: this great new technology and everybody needs it. If you

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Speaker 1: don't get on board, you're going to get left behind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: But at no point have they ever stood up and said,

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Speaker 1: and we have the evidence to show how this is

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Speaker 1: going to be beneficial. Yeah yeah, And right now I

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Speaker 1: just don't see any evidence that there's benefit to it

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Speaker 1: other than getting out comes faster. But that's not the

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Speaker 1: purpose of education. Education is not about getting out I

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Speaker 1: mean it is eventually, but it's about thinking for yourself

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Speaker 1: to get the outcomes out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean when the teacher sets the essay what are

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Speaker 3: the causes of World War Two? Yeah, it's not like

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Speaker 3: they're sitting around waiting for you to let them know

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Speaker 3: what the causes of World War two are.

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Speaker 1: They that they want you to figure it out.

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Speaker 2: They want you to they want to see how you're

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Speaker 2: going with it.

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Speaker 3: And you're figuring out and if you get if you

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Speaker 3: get AI or whatever to do it, you haven't done

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Speaker 3: what the task was meant to do, which was get

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Speaker 3: you to chew it out yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that it would be so

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Speaker 1: much fun to sit around the dining table and have

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Speaker 1: a four hour, eight course diggas station while we have

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Speaker 1: an eight course discussion at the same time. Michael. I

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Speaker 1: love I love our conversations. I love the way that

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Speaker 1: you think. I love the things that you share. The

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00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: book is good.

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Speaker 2: It's really good being able to talk and talk with you.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, you've got you've got a really good, good

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Speaker 2: frame on it all too.

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate that the book is called Thinking for Yourself.

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Speaker 1: The author Michael Parker with his wife Fianna Morrison. You

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Speaker 1: can get it online and everywhere that you buye books. Michael,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's pleasure, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rowland for

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00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides additional research, admin and other support,

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00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: and if you'd like more info to make your family happier,

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00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: check out Michael's book Thinking for Yourself. Will link to

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Speaker 1: them in the show notes and other resources at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot a