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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, everybody's circumstances is different, everybody's needs are different, and

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Speaker 2: so I think what this study just highlights is, as

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Speaker 2: long as we're taking into consideration the needs of our family,

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Speaker 2: the needs of our children, that we kind of can't

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Speaker 2: get it wrong.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Quick question for you, Colie.

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Speaker 4: How old were you when you got your first telephone?

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Speaker 2: I would have been eighteen, that's right. And you brought

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Speaker 2: it from I did.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember Do you remember the kind of phone

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Speaker 4: that it was? It was a noki ear No, no, no,

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Speaker 4: it was an nec fight.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if anyone remembers the nec fight. Oh,

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Speaker 4: but you and I were engaged. I was living in

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Speaker 4: mad Issa working on the radio. You were living in

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Speaker 4: Brisbane at home with your parents. You are eighteen years

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Speaker 4: of your phone on the wall, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I would call your mum would answer the phone and

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Speaker 4: call out, Kylie, Justin's on the phone for you, and

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Speaker 4: you would have to walk into the living room and

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Speaker 4: pick up the phone and sit next to it.

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Speaker 3: Because it was attached to the wall, Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: And then many times, because we would spend long hours talking,

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Speaker 2: we'd be kicked off.

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Speaker 3: Because somebody else had to use the phone.

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Speaker 2: They were expecting a phone call.

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Speaker 4: Kids don't know what it's like, do they. They don't

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Speaker 4: know what it's like for the phone to ring. And

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Speaker 4: there it is on the wall, and someone actually picks

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Speaker 4: it up in the kitchen and stands there and has

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Speaker 4: a conversation standing next to the wall.

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Speaker 3: And then do you remember.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if this ever happened in your house,

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Speaker 4: but I'd be on the phone talking to a girl

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Speaker 4: that I had to crush on, and all of a

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Speaker 4: sudden I'd hear my sisters giggling because they'd picked up

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Speaker 4: one of the other phones in the other room, which

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Speaker 4: obviously connected them to the call.

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Speaker 3: Like kids these days, they got a.

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Speaker 2: Phone, and so much fun they miss out on.

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Speaker 4: Oh they the stories they could tell, the experiences they

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Speaker 4: could have.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, you got your first mobile phone.

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Speaker 4: I bought it for you while we were engaged, that

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Speaker 4: I could talk to you without having to talk to

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Speaker 4: you the nec fight though, And since then it's just

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Speaker 4: all been downhill, hasn't it. The phones have become prolific

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Speaker 4: and ubiquitous and everyone has them, and with Christmas just

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Speaker 4: around the corner, now, I know that there's going to

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Speaker 4: be a whole lot of parents who are having to

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Speaker 4: deal with kids.

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Speaker 3: Saying, Mom, can I have a phone?

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Speaker 4: I'm going into grade seven next year, I'm in the

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Speaker 4: grade day next year, or I've got to catch the

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Speaker 4: bus next year? Can I please please have a phone?

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Speaker 4: So we thought it would be a good idea to

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Speaker 4: have a conversation today about the right age for kids

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Speaker 4: to get their first phone, to get their first mobile,

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Speaker 4: to get their first smartphone. Now, I've always said kids

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Speaker 4: don't need smartphones. I need smart parents, and smart parents

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Speaker 4: give their kids dumb phones.

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Speaker 2: Can you buy a dumb phone anymore?

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Speaker 4: Very very hard to do that these days, but you can,

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Speaker 4: and I still stand by it. I still think to

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Speaker 4: the extent that it's possible while your kids are young,

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Speaker 4: if you think that they need a phone, the less accessibility,

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Speaker 4: the less technology that's involved in that telephone, the better.

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Speaker 2: The challenge you have, though, is that those dumb phones

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Speaker 2: are actually designed and marketed to young children. So to

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Speaker 2: try and get a teenager, oh yeah, yeah, dumb phone,

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Speaker 2: you just you wouldn't. Yes, So I mean the space

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Speaker 2: talk watches. We've had them for our kids and they've

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Speaker 2: been great, but once they get to about grade six,

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Speaker 2: they're kind of like, yeah, maybe grade seven, I really

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Speaker 2: want a phone now, I'm not really cool with this anymore.

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Speaker 4: And they just sort of stopped wearing them. Really really

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Speaker 4: like that though, if you've got younger kids of Space

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Speaker 4: Talk Watch, and there's a few other dumb phones that

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Speaker 4: are on the market. But I guess the purpose of

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Speaker 4: our conversation today is to consider when do your kids,

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Speaker 4: when's your child ready for a smartphone? When's at time

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Speaker 4: to go and buy the fully connected, got everything phone,

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Speaker 4: and what do you need to think about when it

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Speaker 4: comes to making that purchase.

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Speaker 2: And I think every parent wants you to give them

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Speaker 2: the exact number.

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Speaker 4: Well, if you've caught our lightning rounds during the last

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Speaker 4: school holidays, all of the great guests that we've had

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Speaker 4: on the podcast, I get them to do a quick

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Speaker 4: lightning round with me, and I've asked them all of

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Speaker 4: these questions, and one of them is at what age should.

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Speaker 3: A child get their first smartphone?

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Speaker 4: And everyone hedges, everyone fudges around it every now and again,

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Speaker 4: someone say twelve, they're just there. It is, there's a

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Speaker 4: numb done. I found a website called is My Child

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Speaker 4: Ready for a Smartphone? It's called wait until eighth There's

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Speaker 4: an entire movement in the United States saying don't give

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Speaker 4: your kids a smartphone until eighth grade. But I thought

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Speaker 4: we should have a conversation about things to consider and

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Speaker 4: then talk about what the science says. So when you

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Speaker 4: think about the decision to let the kids have a smartphone,

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Speaker 4: what considerations would apply before you would say Okay, now's

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Speaker 4: the time.

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Speaker 3: What are your top couple?

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Speaker 2: So for me, safety is one hundred percent the top focus.

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Speaker 2: If my children are catching a bus or walking home

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Speaker 2: to and from school, or will be away from me

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Speaker 2: from for long periods of time, I want to be

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Speaker 2: able to contact them.

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Speaker 4: Which I find really curious because when we were growing

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Speaker 4: up wasn't an issue. You'd just see a mum and

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Speaker 4: you disappear and be gone all day. I remember when

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Speaker 4: I was a kid, as a teenager, i'd catch the

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Speaker 4: bus to the beach. I lived at Erina, I'm the

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Speaker 4: new Southwest Central Coast. I'd catch the bus either to

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Speaker 4: Terry or Wambril or Forester's Beach or sometimes out to

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Speaker 4: Avoca and I'd go surfing all day, and when I

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Speaker 4: was done, i'd catch the bus home and I'd just

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Speaker 4: say I'll be home the Sarvo and that was it,

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Speaker 4: or if I was.

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Speaker 2: Parenting has evolved a lot more, and I think that

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Speaker 2: in general, parents were a lot more detached a generation ago.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if detached is the right word. My

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Speaker 3: parents loved me. They were just happy to let me

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Speaker 3: go and catch a bus to the beach and hang

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Speaker 3: out all day. I'm fine. They loved me, though, make

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Speaker 3: me question my value to my parents.

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Speaker 2: But I also know that from my parents specifically, it

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Speaker 2: was really stressful because they couldn't contact me yes, and

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Speaker 2: so their stress levels were through the roof until they

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Speaker 2: actually had me home safe.

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Speaker 3: Right right.

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Speaker 4: And there is that whole thing, when you get there,

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Speaker 4: give me a call. I remember Mom and Dad saying

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Speaker 4: that all the time to me, to my sisters. When

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Speaker 4: you get there, give me a call. If there's any problems,

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Speaker 4: just ask somebody if you can use their phone. Of course,

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Speaker 4: that involved knocking on somebody's door or going into a

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Speaker 4: shop or something like that. But I also remember we

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Speaker 4: were just we always had to have money on us

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Speaker 4: so that we could stop at one of the payphones

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Speaker 4: and throw some money into the payphone and call to

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Speaker 4: let our parents know where they were. So I get

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Speaker 4: the whole safety thing. When the kids are having a sleepop,

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Speaker 4: when they're hanging out with friends, you just want to

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Speaker 4: be able to text them and check in. So that's

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Speaker 4: your first consideration. What's your second one, because I mean

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Speaker 4: that could mean at the age of five or six,

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Speaker 4: you've got to give your kids a phone, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess for some families that might be the case.

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Speaker 2: My five or six year old wouldn't be away from me, Okay.

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Speaker 4: One of the considerations would you have though before? Other

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Speaker 4: than safety? Why else would you give your child a phone?

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Speaker 2: For me? That's pretty much it.

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Speaker 3: That's my list. Okay, So what would you be worried about?

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Speaker 4: Why would you say, I'm not sure if you're ready

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Speaker 4: for a phone, even though I've got I want to

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Speaker 4: be able to be in touch with you when you're

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Speaker 4: away from me.

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Speaker 2: Just the accessibility to different apps.

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Speaker 3: So content, Yeah, yeah, it's.

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Speaker 2: All there, like literally in their hands.

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Speaker 4: My additional concerns are a refusal to participate in social situations.

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Speaker 4: The phone facilitates withdrawal rather than interaction and engagement. I'm

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Speaker 4: also concerned about sleep, and I'm also concerned about physical activity,

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Speaker 4: Like once that phone's there, if they've got a phone

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Speaker 4: and a charger, they're pretty happy to sit on the

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Speaker 4: backside and game or social media one another all day

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Speaker 4: and all night, and so they miss out on the

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Speaker 4: fullness of what life offers. And that's something that even

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Speaker 4: adults struggle with. And so there's some real challenges around that.

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Speaker 4: The more parents that I talk to, the more consistently

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Speaker 4: I hear parents basically say once the kids start catching

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Speaker 4: the bus to school or once they go to high school,

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Speaker 4: that's when they get a smartphone. That seems to be

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Speaker 4: the consensus. So I thought I would do a little

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Speaker 4: bit of digging around and find some research on when

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Speaker 4: the when the golden rule applies for getting kids their

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Speaker 4: first phone. I came across a new study out of

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Speaker 4: Stanford University that shed some light on the topic.

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested. What did it say?

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Speaker 4: It found no meaningful association at all, No meaningful association,

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Speaker 4: no correlation between the age at which children receive their

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Speaker 4: first phones and their well being as measured by three things.

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Speaker 4: Their grades, their sleep habits, and the level of depression

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Speaker 4: that they experience. In other words, you can give a

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Speaker 4: child a phone at eight or at eighteen or anywhere

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Speaker 4: in between, and it's essentially not going to have any

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Speaker 4: impact on their grades, their sleep habits, or how to

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Speaker 4: press they are. That's the short version of it. We

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Speaker 4: will link to the write up of the study, so

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Speaker 4: the I doesn't talk.

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Speaker 2: About any likelihood of exposure to negative content or anything

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Speaker 2: like that. We are literally just talking about specific habits.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: So this is a population based study and we're looking

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Speaker 4: at really general kind of variables. In fact, if we

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Speaker 4: really wanted to understand the impact of devices on kids

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Speaker 4: and their well being, what we would have to do

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Speaker 4: is look at content. Look at not how well they

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Speaker 4: are when they've got it, and not even look at

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Speaker 4: how much they're using it, but look at what they're

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Speaker 4: doing while they're on it.

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Speaker 3: That's the key. That's what we've really got to worry about.

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Speaker 4: So I wanted to link to that because I think

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Speaker 4: that it I think that it should give parents a

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Speaker 4: little bit of comfort knowing that you can't really get

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Speaker 4: this thing right or wrong. Kids were no better off

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Speaker 4: if they got a phone at fourteen than if they

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Speaker 4: got a phone at ten or even at fifteen or sixteen.

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Speaker 4: It didn't make any difference in either a positive or

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Speaker 4: a negative direction, regardless of the age. Your child's not

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Speaker 4: disadvantaged by having to wait. They're not advantaged by having

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Speaker 4: to wait.

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Speaker 2: It also doesn't acknowledge the impact that this has on

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Speaker 2: their connections with friends.

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Speaker 4: Either correct correct. So it's a pretty general study looking

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Speaker 4: just at those three things. But I think that there's

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Speaker 4: comfort there. Grades unaffected, sleep surprisingly generally unaffected. And they

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Speaker 4: had the kids wearing an accelerometer, So I think that

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Speaker 4: might be a little bit of a weakness there, because

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Speaker 4: if I'm wearing an accelerometer and I'm laying in bed

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Speaker 4: staring at my phone, the accelerometer may give the what

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Speaker 4: it shows that I'm immobile, so the data might show

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Speaker 4: that my sleep is happening, but I'm not asleep at all.

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Speaker 4: I'm just staring at my screen in my bedroom. So

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Speaker 4: I think that there are question marks on that specific finding.

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Speaker 4: But in relation to like I said, grades and depressive symptoms,

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Speaker 4: we've got good measures for those two things, and they

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Speaker 4: were generally unaffected. Therefore, early or late phone acquisition in

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Speaker 4: terms of impact on well being and arguably sleep and

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Speaker 4: certainly grades, it doesn't seem to make any difference. What

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Speaker 4: I think really matters when we're deciding whether to give

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Speaker 4: our kids phone or not is their capacity to regulate

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Speaker 4: their use and avoid unsafe, unhealthy content. That's kind of it,

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Speaker 4: which means they're the conversations we need to have.

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Speaker 2: What I love about this study is just this acknowledgment

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Speaker 2: that I think, for the most part, as parents, in

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Speaker 2: spite of how challenging this area is to navigate with

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Speaker 2: our children, that as we make decisions based on the

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Speaker 2: needs of our children, we're more likely to get things

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Speaker 2: right for our family. Yes, it's the right fit for

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Speaker 2: our family, and I recognize that for so long there's

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Speaker 2: probably been a lot of parental judgment going on based

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Speaker 2: on they gave their child a phone at ten. But

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Speaker 2: everybody's circumstances is different, everybody's needs are different, and so

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Speaker 2: I think what this study just highlights is as long

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Speaker 2: as we're taking into consideration the needs of our family,

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Speaker 2: the needs of our children, that we kind of can't

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Speaker 2: get it wrong. Yeah, And it's really about having those

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Speaker 2: conversations with our kids pre arming them, and then continuing

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Speaker 2: to educate them as they grow and mature so that

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Speaker 2: they can navigate to the challenges that are in front

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's it.

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Speaker 4: You can't get it wrong, and there's no need for

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Speaker 4: any parent shaming around this. I think they're really the

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Speaker 4: take home messages. So if you want to get you

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Speaker 4: kids fun of Christmas, do it, but make sure you

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Speaker 4: have regular conversations, make sure that they know the risks,

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Speaker 4: make sure that you're monitoring what's going on, and that

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Speaker 4: they're living a full and whole life. I mean, we

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Speaker 4: can get involved in a whole lot more nuance around this.

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Speaker 4: There's some really great content that Joscelyn Brewer puts out.

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Speaker 3: You can find her.

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Speaker 4: Stuff around digital nutrition, and I recommend Joscelyn's work really,

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Speaker 4: really highly. She's actually got a new webinar out all

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Speaker 4: about when you should give your kids a mobile phone,

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Speaker 4: and she unsurprisingly comes to a fairly similar conclusion. I

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Speaker 4: just want to highlight as well, this was a really

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Speaker 4: smart study. It was in a highly regarded journal called

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Speaker 4: Child Development. It was a five year longitudinal study. Like

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Speaker 4: the data here, they haven't just pulled this stuff out

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Speaker 4: of the air and said, oh, yeah, look, it'll be fine.

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Speaker 3: These are Stanford researchers. It's really really great stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I know you're the parenting expert, and you've just said,

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Speaker 2: if you want to get your kids a phone, give

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Speaker 2: them a phone. But I'm going to put my little

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Speaker 2: disclaimer in there.

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Speaker 3: Oh I said that a little bit glibly.

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Speaker 2: You did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I did.

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Speaker 4: I'm glad you pulled me up on that, because I'm

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Speaker 4: not shouldn't be that gliber I would delay.

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Speaker 2: I would always delay as long as is possible.

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Speaker 4: And we've done that. We've absolutely done that consistently because.

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Speaker 2: Just like buying a family pet has lots of positives,

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Speaker 2: there are a whole heap of cons that you have

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Speaker 2: to deal with and you are bringing in more challenges.

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Speaker 3: It adds to your workload as a parent totally. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: and the costs.

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Speaker 2: My suggestion is delay, delay, delay, but when the time

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Speaker 2: is right, you don't need to feel guilty about it,

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Speaker 2: make the decision and then move forward.

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Speaker 4: See I was just wrapping up the podcast and using

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Speaker 4: that as a throwaway line. You've picked me up on it,

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Speaker 4: and you've done the right thing. We really hope though,

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Speaker 4: that there's been a helpful conversation for you. Tomorrow, we'll

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Speaker 4: be answering a question from a listener that I think

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Speaker 4: is a really important one for anyone with.

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Speaker 3: A child who is neurodivergent.

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Speaker 4: We're going to be talking a little bit about ADHD.

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Speaker 4: And then on Wednesday, Ah such a super important conversation

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Speaker 4: with doctor Anthea Rhodes from the Royal Children's Hospital. They've

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Speaker 4: got a new poll out about kids and water safety.

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Speaker 4: This is one you don't want to miss so much

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Speaker 4: coming up this week on the Happy Families podcast. Thank

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Speaker 4: you so much for listening. As always, we appreciate our

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Speaker 4: producer Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. He does such great work. Justin,

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Speaker 4: thank you for what you do. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 4: executive producer. We love him too. And if you'd like

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Speaker 4: more information about making your family happier or about the

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Speaker 4: things we've talked about today, check the show notes for

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Speaker 4: the podcast episode today, or visit us on our Facebook

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Speaker 4: page Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families or at happy families.

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Speaker 3: Dot com dot a. You