1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Monday, the sixth of May. I'm Sam, 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm Zara. Last week we learned the Federal government will 5 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: trial age verification measures aimed at blocking children from watching 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: explicit adult content online as part of a range of 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: measures designed to lower the rate of gender based violence 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: in Australia. Now, porn passports aren't a new idea, either 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: here in Australia or around the world, but we're yet 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: to see any sort of programs introduced domestically. Could this 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: trial be the first step on the road to age 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: verifications on porn sites? How would these verification processes even work? 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: To learn more, I sat down with Professor Paul Haskell Dowland, 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: who is a professor of Cybersecurity Practice at Edith Cowen 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: in before that chat. Here is what's making headlines. The 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,199 Speaker 1: Federal government will wipe three billion dollars in student debts 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: as part of an overhaul of the national student debt 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: system announced on Sunday. The wiping of student debts will 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: be backdated to June twenty twenty three, erasing the historic 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: seven point one percent increase added to student debts caused 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: by indexation last year. Under the changes, the government estimates 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: that a twenty five thousand dollars hex debt will be 23 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: reduced by over one thousand dollars. New measures will also 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: ensure that indexation, which is the annual increase in student 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: debt to reflect inflation, cannot be as high as it 26 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: was last year. 27 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: Falling iPhone sales have seen a drop in Apple's revenue. 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: According to the latest financial report, the tech giant sold 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: around ten percent fewer iPhones in the first three months 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four than it did at the start 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: of last year. It's still reported around one hundred and 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: thirty eight billion dollars in revenue for the first quarter. 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: Overall earnings were down four percent despite the launch of 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: the Apple Vision pro this year. 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: WA Premier Roger Cook and WA Police Commissioner Cole Blanche 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: have confirmed a sixteen year old boy was killed by 37 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: WA police on Saturday night after he stabbed a member 38 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: of the public in the car park of a Bunning 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: store in Willerton, which is a suburb in Perth's South. 40 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: Commissioner Blanche said it certainly had the hallmarks of a 41 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: terrorist attack, but it hasn't formerly been declared one. Police 42 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: also confirms the boy was part of a program for 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: those quote radicalized online. They said he acted alone and 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: there is no other active threat to the community at 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: this time. 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: And today's good news. Archaeologists have successfully reconstructed the face 47 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: of a seventy five thousand year old Neanderthal woman. University 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: of Cambridge researchers first discovered the Flatten skull in twenty eighteen. 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: Since then, they've pieced together over two hundred pieces of 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: bone fragments by hand. Recent analysis found that the person 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: was likely in her mid forties when she died, and 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: her sex was determined as female by analysis of tooth 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: enimal proteins so SAM. Towards the end of last week, 54 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: we spoke about the National Cabinet meeting that was convened 55 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: to talk about lowering gender based violence rates in Australia, 56 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: and we had Anthony Aberneze get up and announce a 57 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: whole suite of new policy objectives and a whole lot 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: of funding. And we focused on a couple of those 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: in the pod last week. But there are some that 60 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: aren't getting perhaps as much media attention and one of 61 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: those things we wanted to talk about today. 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And there is less money dedicated towards some 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: of these initiatives, but nonetheless they're really important to talk about, 64 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: and if I had to group them together, I'd say 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: that these are more about combating the root causes of 66 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: men's toxic attitudes towards women manifesting online. So there's a 67 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: suggestion to ban deep fake pornography, there's a review of 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: Australia's classification schemes for film and TV, and there's a 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: dedicated public education campaign. But the one that I really 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about today was this idea of an 71 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: age verification scheme for those attempting to access pornography online, 72 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: an idea that's often come up as a porn passport. 73 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: And this idea is not new, it's been around for 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: a couple of years now. But now that the government 75 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: has committed six point five million dollars in the upcoming 76 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: budget to a trial, I wanted to go a bit 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: deeper and learn a bit more on this. So I 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: had a chat to Professor Paul Haskell Dowland. He's a 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: professor of cybersecurity and he has written extensively on porn passports. 80 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Here's that chat, Paul, thanks so much for joining us 81 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: on the Daily OS this morning. 82 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 83 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about this new 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: proposal for age assurance technology to bar children from online porn, 85 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: but perhaps it would be helpful to go back a 86 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: couple of steps. What's the problem we're trying to solve here? 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: So fundamentally, there is an ongoing issue, as you know, 88 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: with gender based violence. There are a whole series of 89 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: factors contributing to mainly male on female violence. It isn't 90 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: unique to specific genders, but there is a growing social 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: concern of gender based violence and part of the underlying 92 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 3: reasons for it, and there's a lot of research about 93 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 3: whether this is legitimate or not, is certainly a perception 94 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 3: that there is a link between access to adult content. 95 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: And that's a very broad statement that covers not just 96 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 3: online pornography, but early access, particularly in the childhood years, 97 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: to adult oriented materials. And in a way it's no 98 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 3: different to what me in my youth would have seen 99 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 3: in terms of getting glimpses of films that were at 100 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 3: a higher age rating, or seeing an adult magazine in 101 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: a books store or in a newsagent's. But in more 102 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 3: recent years there's been a much greater level of accessibility 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: to this sort of content, and some would argue that 104 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: the nature of the content has become of more concern, 105 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: only more aggressive is the words that I'm hearing being used. 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: So there's this growth in access to content that we 107 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: believe is influencing behaviors and attitudes and opinions, particularly in 108 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 3: terms of consensual relationships and safe relationships, and so there 109 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 3: is a desire to look at a solution. What can 110 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 3: we do try and control access to certain levels and 111 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: types of information, And the recent announcements it's part of 112 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: a whole flurry of initiatives to target gender base violence. 113 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: But part of that is to look at how we 114 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: can implement a trial in looking at age assurance or 115 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: age verification technologies, something that can limit who has access 116 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 3: to these kinds of a dunk content. 117 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: So essentially what you're saying is kids are discovering pornography 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: slightly younger, and the pornography itself tends to be of 119 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: a more violent nature, and that combination together is we 120 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: think could be contributing towards this culture where we're seeing 121 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: more gender race violence. 122 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: Indeed, and I think some of the statistics that are 123 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: being talked about are really quite concerning. So referring to 124 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: the e Safety Commissioner, which is a body that makes 125 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: recommendations in relation to online safety and other issues, particularly 126 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: in the current environment of people having almost unfettered access 127 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: to the Internet. And I'm just reading one of the 128 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: statistics now seventy five percent of children who are aged 129 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: between sixteen and eighteen have experienced some form of online pornography. Now, 130 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: that in itself is perhaps not too shocking. Bexteen to 131 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: eighteen year olds, you may think, Okay, they could probably 132 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: are equipped to deal with that. And I guess if 133 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 3: you reflect that the education system, by the time someone 134 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 3: has reached sixteen to eighteen, they would have been exposed 135 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: to all sorts of educational interventions about relationships into the sex. 136 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: But when you then dig into the data, a third 137 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: of them were exposed before the age of thirteen. Yeah, 138 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 3: these are really young kids being exposed to online pornography, 139 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 3: and half of them saw it between age thirteen and fifteen, 140 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: really in the sort of formative years. And of course 141 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 3: there's this concerns as to how this kind of access 142 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: and exposure to adult material will influence the development of 143 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 3: individuals and particularly in their relationships. 144 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: Okay, so when now we've got our heads around this 145 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: problem that exists, and now we can turn to the 146 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: solutions in front of us. I heard you mentioned age 147 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: assurance before and verification. Is there a difference between those 148 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: two terms? 149 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 3: There is, and for many it's a subtle difference. From 150 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: an academic perspective, there's a really big difference between the two. 151 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 3: I'll give you a very simple example. If you were 152 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 3: to go and visit a website that sells alcohol, one 153 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 3: of the first things that you'll be asked when visiting 154 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: that website is are you over eighteen? Or they'll ask 155 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: you an age related question. 156 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: Or you put in your age and say what you 157 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: you were born. 158 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: And that's the extent of the validity or the verification 159 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: of your age. A website asks you are you an adult? 160 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 3: And that can be through how many years old are 161 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: you versus what is your date of birth? And I'm 162 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 3: sure that the listeners can think that's relatively to bypass. 163 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: And really a lot of the approaches that have been 164 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: taken at the moment to control access to adult material 165 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: are based around either the concept of are you old 166 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: enough or do you have something that you can show 167 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 3: us or that you can demonstrate that you are older, 168 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: and that typically is through a credit card, and a 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: lot of people are concerned about that because they don't 170 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: want it appearing on their credit card bill. But it's 171 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 3: really the only mechanisms that are currently actively in use. 172 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: So just quickly is the reason why an alcohol website 173 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: or an adult website asks you for that date of 174 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: birth that you could as you are saying, you know, 175 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: anyone can say really whatever they want on that is 176 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: that a liability thing and they're shifting that liability to 177 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: you as the user. 178 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: Effectively, it's their demonstration of due diligence, so they can 179 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 3: hide behind it. It's very similar to terms and conditions 180 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: on a product or a service that you subscribe to. 181 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: Very small font, very very small font, three hundred pages 182 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: in the vendors the suppliers all know full well that 183 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 3: we don't read any of that information, so it's hiding 184 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: behind it. And to give them some consideration, they probably 185 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 3: don't have access to many other solutions. There really aren't 186 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: many ways in which you can verify someone's identity if 187 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 3: you're not a government entity. Or you're not a bank. 188 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 3: So if you're developing a online pornography website, you really 189 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 3: have very little assurance that you can have individual visiting 190 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: your website is of a particular age and again no 191 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: different to social media activities. 192 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what are the more rigorous approaches out there then? 193 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: So that's when we move into what we call age verification, 194 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: And as it sounds, it's about verifying that the details 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: are correct. Now, that can be something very simple, and 196 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: I did give the example of a credit card, so 197 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: you could argue that if you own a credit card, 198 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 3: you must be of a certain age because there are 199 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: checks involved in that process. But again I'm sure you 200 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: can imagine the many myriad ways in which you could 201 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: obtain a credit card. However, there are lots of other 202 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: approaches and I think when we talk about the trial 203 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: that is being proposed in Australia, what we're likely to 204 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 3: see there is a tie in with government and probably 205 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: utilizing something like the myga of ID that the newly 206 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 3: developed or redeveloped digital ID that provides a level of verification. 207 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: And I think what's important to note here is it's 208 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: very much like when you apply for a credit card, online. 209 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: You will often verify your identity the one hundred point 210 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: check entirely online. You'll do it digitally without providing any documents, 211 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: and it's a mechanism by which, for example, your driver's 212 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: license is passed on to the issuing authority. So in 213 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 3: my case, I'm in Western Australia, so I would enter 214 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 3: my details of my driver's license and they would then 215 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 3: be verified by the Department of Transport here in Western 216 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: Australia against the database and the government would tell the 217 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 3: service provider credit card application. In my example, this person 218 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 3: is valid. This person has a legitimate form of identity. 219 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: And that's an interesting nuance that you're touching on there, 220 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: because if we take that then to an adult content setting, 221 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: the trial is not suggesting, if I'm understanding it right, 222 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: that we upload edge verification documents to the adult website itself, 223 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: but rather that website employers a relationship with a government, 224 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: for example, and the government gives you the grain line. 225 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: That would be the way that I would approach it, 226 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 3: in the way that it should be approached. However, we 227 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 3: need to consider how these things often get implemented, and 228 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 3: Optus would be a great example. Optus had to verify 229 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 3: the identity of people when creating new contracts, and would 230 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: often typically install but also online would capture, for example, 231 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: someone's driver's license or passport, and you would think they 232 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: were simply verifying that against a government database, which indeed 233 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: they did make sure that it was legitimate, but they 234 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 3: then went on to store. 235 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: The detail and we all know how that ended, and. 236 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 3: That ended very badly. And so the hope is that 237 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: a level of sensibility would be applied and we would 238 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: ensure that whatever the mechanism is, it is a moment 239 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 3: in time verification that did not require the storage of 240 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 3: any identification documentation. And certainly, if we look at the 241 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 3: government approach, particularly with the digital ID, that is about 242 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 3: providing a validation of someone's identity without storage of any 243 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 3: of the data. It's not about creating another form of ID, 244 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: specifically in order to access pornography. That would be very sensitive. 245 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: But I'm sure that lots of concerns with whatever system 246 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: is proposed in terms of privacy. 247 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: Paul, are you getting a sense just taking into consideration 248 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: the kind of last couple of weeks we've had as 249 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: a nation and the national conversation and the way that 250 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: that is shifted to very rightful calls that we're in 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: crisis mode with this, that these conversations would now be 252 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: expedited quicker than they usually would be. 253 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: I think we've definitely seen that. And if I go 254 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: back to what I commented on earlier about the Estafety Commissioner, 255 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: the report I referred to was written a year ago 256 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 3: and was processed through government and considered but not actioned 257 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: at least not in its entirety, and that indeed was 258 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: almost a repeat of a report that was created three 259 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 3: years prior to that, going back to twenty twenty, when 260 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: there were calls for age verification, and this certainly isn't 261 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: a new thing even then, but in terms of formal calls, 262 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: this has been asked for, certainly as early as twenty 263 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: twenty that I'm aware of. But I think there's been 264 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 3: a significant shift in public opinion on this matter, not 265 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: necessarily specific to online pornography and the access controls, but 266 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: in terms of the more general conversation about the influences 267 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 3: that impact on gender based violence, and I think certainly 268 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: online pornography and other adult materials are a part of 269 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: that equation, much as education is. We really need to 270 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: improve education at school level about respect and consent and 271 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 3: all the matters that are discussed but are clearly not 272 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: having sufficient impact, and these proposed activities in the online 273 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: pornography domain are just another part of that jigsaw puzzle. 274 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: Last question from me, Paul, have we heard anything from 275 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: the adult film or entertainment industry when these kind of 276 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: ideas are floated, so. 277 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 3: Not specifically in terms of the proposed trial in the 278 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 3: media at the moment. However, the Etaftory Commissioners report a 279 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 3: year ago did draw on evidence from pretty much all stakeholders, 280 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: and they did talk to the adult entertainment industry, and 281 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: in a way, this is no different to what has 282 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: happened in the US and in other countries where age 283 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: verification has been required mandated although not necessarily implemented in 284 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: the best of ways. But the consensus generally doesn't cause 285 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: any significant obstacles because there'll be some individuals for whom 286 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: accessing that information having to prove identity will be offputting 287 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: and they will stop accessing it. But there are probably 288 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: a more significant number who are perhaps regular consumers, who 289 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: are a bit more accepting of the need, perhaps even 290 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: paying for subscriptions and so for many it will just 291 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: be an extra kick in the box, an extra herd 292 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 3: or they have to overcome. But we might also find 293 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: that the opposite is true, that new individuals may be 294 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 3: brought into this particular pastime because this will bring a 295 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: level of security to it that it's almost all authenticating 296 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 3: it and providing some legitimacy. So I think there'll be 297 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 3: a whole range of responses to this, but the one 298 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 3: thing you can guarantee is the adult entertainment industry is 299 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: not going to disappear because of. 300 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: This, Professor Pal, I really appreciate your time. That was 301 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: a really enlightening discussion. 302 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much. 303 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: That's all we have time for today. Thanks so much 304 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: for joining us on today's episode of The Daily Oz. 305 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: Before you go, we have something very exciting to announce. 306 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 2: We have officially launched our very first sport newsletter. It's 307 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: been something we have been wanting to do for a 308 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 2: very long time and we are so proud that it 309 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: is out in the world. It's a weekday wrap of 310 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: all the sport news you need to know. Whether you're 311 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: a sport junkie or someone who just wants to join 312 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: into the conversation will drop a link sign up to 313 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: that news that are in today's show notes, and be 314 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 2: back again in your ears tomorrow. See ya. 315 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 316 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calgudin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 317 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 318 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torres 319 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the 320 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.