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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the twentieth of February. I'm Sam and I'm Tom. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for coming on the pod today. Tom Zara was otherwise engaged.

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Speaker 2: He's literally engaged, literally engaged. Congratulations, Sarah. I hope you

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Speaker 2: are celebrating and not listening to this podcast Tom. Today

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you about what's been happening

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Speaker 2: in India.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Sam. It's a story that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people may not have heard very much about, but it's

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Speaker 3: got a rather dramatic headline.

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Speaker 1: A calm newsday disrupt.

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Speaker 3: Indian authorities rated the officers of the BBC.

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Speaker 2: Films and the laptops IF.

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Speaker 1: Some of the employees were also seized.

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Speaker 3: After they released a documentary critical of Indian Prime Minister

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Speaker 3: near Andromodi.

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Speaker 1: Last month, the BBC documentary was banned across the country.

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Speaker 3: So what's going on here, what's really behind these raids

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Speaker 3: and what does it say about the complex state of

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Speaker 3: politics in the world's largest democracy. We'll get into that scene.

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Speaker 2: Looking forward to this chat, but first Tom, give me

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Speaker 2: a sense of what's making headlines this morning.

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Speaker 3: Environment Minister Tanny Plibsekas said the federal government has no

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Speaker 3: problem imposing obligations to address plastics recycling issues in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Some problems have emerged recently following the collapse of the

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Speaker 3: Red Cycle recycling program last year, after revelations that some

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Speaker 3: plastics which were meant to be recycled actually ended up

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Speaker 3: in landfill.

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Speaker 2: US Vice President Kamala Harris declared it had been formally

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Speaker 2: determined that Russia had committed crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Harris made the comments ahead of the one year anniversary

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Speaker 2: of Russia's invasion of Ukraine next week.

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Speaker 3: The federal and Queensland governments have announced over seven billion

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Speaker 3: dollars in funding for redevelopments ahead of the Brisbane twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty two Olympic and Paralympic Games. It includes a redevelopment

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Speaker 3: of the Gabba. It also includes the construction of a

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Speaker 3: new indoor arena in the Brisbane CBD.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news, a nineteen month old baby has

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Speaker 2: become the first child in the UK to receive a

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Speaker 2: life saving gene therapy treatment for a fatal genetic condition

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Speaker 2: and is now a happy and healthy Toddlight Teddy received

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Speaker 2: a drug that was at one point the most expensive

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Speaker 2: drug in the world before being heavily discounted by the

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Speaker 2: UK's National Health Service. Okay, Tom, you've mentioned Raid's religion.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack there. Where are we going

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Speaker 2: to start this conversation?

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Speaker 3: Yes, a nice light start to your Monday morning, Sam.

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Speaker 3: It all circles around a BBC documentary that was fairly

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Speaker 3: critical of Prime Minister or Andromodi about an incident in

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Speaker 3: his past, which we'll get into in a moment. The

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Speaker 3: Indian government was not very happy about this documentary. They

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Speaker 3: banned it from being shared even on social media in India,

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Speaker 3: and then a couple of weeks later, Indian tax authorities

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Speaker 3: have rated, as I said, BBC offices in Delhi and Mumbai. Extensibly,

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Speaker 3: this is about a sort of a tax evasion story,

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Speaker 3: and they say it's kind of unrelated to the BBC thing,

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Speaker 3: but the timing coming just a couple of weeks, of

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Speaker 3: course after the government banning a BBC documentary has led

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Speaker 3: a few people to conclude that it's really more of

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Speaker 3: a shakedown, I guess, an intimidation tactic. So that's the

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Speaker 3: story that we've had over the last week. And as

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Speaker 3: you say, sand there's a lot that sits behind that.

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Speaker 3: So there's a bit for us to unpack today. Well

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Speaker 3: why don't we go to some of the fundamental ideas

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Speaker 3: we have to understand to get our heads around this story?

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Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit more about India as a democracy.

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Speaker 3: So maybe I'll start with a little bit more context

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Speaker 3: about Neurentromodi and exactly who he is. He became Prime

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Speaker 3: Minister in twenty fourteen. He sort of has a longer

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Speaker 3: history than that in Indian politics, as will come to.

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Speaker 3: And he's the leader of the Baratier Janata Party the

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Speaker 3: BJP for short, which is a party which has long

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Speaker 3: term associations with Hindu nationalism. So Hindu is the majority

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Speaker 3: religion in India, about eighty percent of the population. It's

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Speaker 3: got a large Muslim minority and number of other religions

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Speaker 3: in the country, including Sikh and a couple of others,

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Speaker 3: but majority Hindu population. And you know, for a long time,

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Speaker 3: I guess, on the fringes of the BJP, there have

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Speaker 3: been some extreme, violent and even sort of fascist ideologies

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Speaker 3: associated with that kind of you know, the more extreme

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Speaker 3: versions of Hindu nationalism. They have always been on the

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Speaker 3: fringes of the party. But under Modi's administration, there have

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Speaker 3: been growing concerns about the treatment of Muslims and other

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Speaker 3: minority groups in the country. So that's one thing that

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Speaker 3: international age zies have expressed concerns about. But then also

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Speaker 3: there is this issue of press freedom and generally the

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Speaker 3: response to dissent. So this idea of raiding the officers

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Speaker 3: of the BBC is not entirely new. Amnesty International was

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Speaker 3: chased out of the country a little while ago, Oxfam

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Speaker 3: had their officers raided, a number of journalists have been

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Speaker 3: imprisoned for various reasons, and there are other kind of

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Speaker 3: you know, generally speaking, threats towards hostile media organizations is

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Speaker 3: certainly a concerning development. It's something that major press freedom

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Speaker 3: organizations have had a lot to say about. So the

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Speaker 3: organization Reporters Without Borders, which does its sort of World

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Speaker 3: Press Freedom Index, India has led to one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fiftieth out of one hundred and eighty in the world,

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Speaker 3: and that organization, you know, really says that press freedom

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Speaker 3: is in crisis in the country and under severe threat.

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Speaker 3: So both of these themes, this kind of issue of

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Speaker 3: the treatment of minorities and the issue of the treatment

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Speaker 3: of the media are really important scene setters for this story.

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Speaker 2: And then we have this documentary that was released by

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Speaker 2: the BBC. Can you talk me through what it was

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Speaker 2: about and why it caused such a stir in India.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the documentary takes us back to riots in

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Speaker 3: the state of Gujarat in two thousand and two where

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Speaker 3: there was this flavor of I guess violence against minorities,

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Speaker 3: against Muslim specifically. So Narendromodi was the chief minister, kind

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Speaker 3: of like the premiere of Gujarat in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 3: when there was an incident a train was set fire

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Speaker 3: to carrying a number of Hindu pilgrims. The circumstances of

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Speaker 3: that fire are slightly controversial, but I guess the important

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Speaker 3: thing for this story is that it was generally viewed

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Speaker 3: at the time that this had been an act carried

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Speaker 3: out by Muslim protesters, and what happened in the subsequent

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Speaker 3: days and weeks was this quite systematic campaign of public

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Speaker 3: violence directed at the Muslim community in Gujarat. So over

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Speaker 3: a thousand people, mostly Muslims, were killed and houses and

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Speaker 3: businesses were set fire to. It was a really really

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Speaker 3: significant period of very nasty violence that followed this incident, Right,

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Speaker 3: and how.

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Speaker 2: Much do we know about Modi's involvement twenty one years ago?

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Speaker 3: That is a tricky question and that is really some

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Speaker 3: of the territory that this BBC documentary has weighed into.

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Speaker 3: So Mody, of course was the chief Minister, so there's

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Speaker 3: always going to be some question about this happening on

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Speaker 3: his watch. But it goes a little bit further than that.

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Speaker 3: Even at the time, there were suggestions that Mody had

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Speaker 3: encouraged the violence and had even directed police to stand aside,

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Speaker 3: basically allowing the protesters to commit this kind of violence

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Speaker 3: with impunity. That's something that Modi denies, but it was

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Speaker 3: taken pretty seriously at the time. This is not some

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Speaker 3: new revelation that's recently come to light. This is a

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Speaker 3: controversy that has long dogged Modi. The US a few

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Speaker 3: years after this happens had actually banned him from entering

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Speaker 3: America for a while. They reversed that eventually when he

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Speaker 3: became Prime Minister, but they came to the conclusion there

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Speaker 3: that he had a significant role in encouraging these riots,

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Speaker 3: and so it is a significant part of his legacy,

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Speaker 3: and the BBC doc documentary, i guess went back over

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Speaker 3: some of that history, but also added some new perspectives

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Speaker 3: to it. So there are a couple of particularly key

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Speaker 3: claims that the documentary made. One of them was that

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Speaker 3: the death toll was a lot higher than was reported.

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Speaker 3: But the other one is that Mody is alleged to

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Speaker 3: have a more direct role than was maybe previously thought.

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Speaker 3: In particular, there's a document that the BBC documentary managed

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Speaker 3: to get from the UK Foreign Office, which had sort

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Speaker 3: of cables from diplomats at the time, using words like

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Speaker 3: you know, Mody was directly responsible and describing what happened

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Speaker 3: as a pogram and you know, really kind of using

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Speaker 3: maybe probably stronger language than we've certainly heard in an

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Speaker 3: official sense, which indicated that even at the time, you know,

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Speaker 3: at least the British diplomats in the area, you know,

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Speaker 3: had this view that Mody definitely had some involvement.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So a documentary that revisits this period of Indian

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Speaker 2: history with direct consequences for the current Prime minister. The

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Speaker 2: documentary was banned in India, could we watch it anywhere else?

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Speaker 3: So it was aired in the UK. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think there are various ways to access it around the world,

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Speaker 3: but it was in India where the government particularly cracked

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Speaker 3: down on its distribution on social media, even sort of

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Speaker 3: sharing clips of it on social media. They invoked emergency

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Speaker 3: powers to do it. So it's obviously something they took

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Speaker 3: very seriously, and spokespeople from the government and from the

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Speaker 3: BJP have been, shall we say, fairly strong in their

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Speaker 3: response to the documentary. A government spokesperson called it hostile

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Speaker 3: propaganda and anti India garbage. A BJP spokesperson said the

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Speaker 3: BBC was the most corrupt organization in the world. They've

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Speaker 3: accused the BBC of, you know, classic colonial mindset and

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Speaker 3: you know, saying that India has pressed freedom just as

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Speaker 3: long as you don't spew venom. And I guess it's

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Speaker 3: phrases like this that mean that when we then see

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Speaker 3: the government in an unrelated quote unquote unrelated circumstance rating

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Speaker 3: the tax officers of the BBC, where people maybe kind

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Speaker 3: of question whether those things really are unrelated, and where

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Speaker 3: certainly a lot of the response has suggested that this

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Speaker 3: is part of the Indian government's attempt to intimidate the

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Speaker 3: BBC for its critical reporting of the Prime minister.

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Speaker 2: Okay, give me a sense now of the global response

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Speaker 2: to this, and has the opposition in India said anything

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Speaker 2: about this?

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Speaker 3: It has So the major opposition party in India, which

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Speaker 3: has been in power, you know for a very long time,

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Speaker 3: was really, I guess the establishment party in India for

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Speaker 3: a long time, that's the Congress Party, and a senior

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Speaker 3: opposition figure from the Congress Party, you know, said that

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Speaker 3: the move reeks of desperation called it undemocratic and dictatorial,

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Speaker 3: and you know that they've been pursuing this line for

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Speaker 3: a long time, that that Modi has been moving in

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Speaker 3: a more authoritarian direction. It's been quite complicated in the

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Speaker 3: UK as well. Rishi Suna, because it happens, is the

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Speaker 3: UK's first Hindu Prime minister, and he's come under pressure

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Speaker 3: from members of the Conservative Party there's a UK member

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Speaker 3: of the House of Lords, Lord Rami Ranger, who attacked

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Speaker 3: the BBC. He wrote a letter to the Director General

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Speaker 3: insinuating that Pakistani origin analysts must have had something to

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Speaker 3: do with what he described as nonsense. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: pretty kind of cookie cut racial slur there from him,

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Speaker 3: and that's something that's drawn a lot of criticism. He's

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Speaker 3: a prominent Conservative Party donor, so it has been quite

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Speaker 3: controversial in the UK as well, certainly making international headlines

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Speaker 3: as well. And again, you know, this is a pretty

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Speaker 3: big deal, I guess aspat between two countries, the UK

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Speaker 3: and India are trying to negotiate a free trade deal

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Speaker 3: at the moment. There are a lot of reasons why

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Speaker 3: this is a really sensitive issue.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right

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Speaker 2: back Tom. Can we now zoom out and look at

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Speaker 2: this in a global context? What does all of this

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Speaker 2: mean for us?

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Speaker 3: I'll start with the fact that this kind of trend

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Speaker 3: in the world's largest democracy is obviously a concerning one.

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Speaker 3: And I think the growing figure of Modi, who draws

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Speaker 3: comparisons in his approach to the likes of Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: in America in that kind of strong man image. You know,

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Speaker 3: Modi has enormous popularity in areas of the country where

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Speaker 3: there are higher concentrations if you do people that that's

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Speaker 3: not a universal story, but he certainly does enjoy a

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Speaker 3: really strong portion of the vote among some of those communities.

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Speaker 3: And he's well and truly expected to be re elected

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Speaker 3: when the Indian election occurs next year. He's well and

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Speaker 3: truly you know, a dominant figure in Indian politics. And

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Speaker 3: so this increasing trend towards you know, I guess human

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Speaker 3: rights concerns, concerns about freedom of expression, concerns about the

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Speaker 3: treatment of minorities. That's a really concerning one. It's also

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Speaker 3: really interesting in a strategic context as well. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Australia in the US see India as a really strategically

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Speaker 3: important ally in growing tensions with China. India and China

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Speaker 3: are not natural allies, although they have some things to

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Speaker 3: do with one another. You know, quite recently, the quad

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Speaker 3: Dialogue that Australia and the US have started with Japan

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Speaker 3: and India is a sign of how, you know, those

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Speaker 3: countries would like to move towards greater security cooperation with India,

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Speaker 3: and so would the UK, which is again why this

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Speaker 3: issue with the BBC becomes a bit of a bit

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Speaker 3: of a complicated one. The West has been trying to

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Speaker 3: pressure India on, you know, how it responds to Russia's

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Speaker 3: war in Ukraine, and India has remained very neutral when

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Speaker 3: it comes to that. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: reasons why India matters, and that's why maybe the note

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Speaker 3: that I'd finish on is that I suspect some of

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Speaker 3: these details about the internal politics of India will be

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Speaker 3: fairly unfamiliar to many. And that's fair enough. We don't

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Speaker 3: always get a lot of coverage of India here in

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Speaker 3: you know, in Australian news, and it doesn't always make

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Speaker 3: international news. But India's a big deal. You know, it

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Speaker 3: is the largest democracy in the world. Seeing it to

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Speaker 3: be the largest country in the world, I think it's

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Speaker 3: fair to say that just about everyone in Australia has

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Speaker 3: a pretty detailed understanding of say, race relations in America.

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Speaker 3: But I'd say that the general populations level of understanding

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Speaker 3: here about some of those distinctions and you know, internal

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Speaker 3: conflicts within Indian society, we know so little about that,

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Speaker 3: so little about Indian politics, so you know, I think

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Speaker 3: I mean that's on us here at the Daily OZ,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's on everyone to kind of, you know,

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Speaker 3: a little bit more attention countries like India and China.

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Speaker 3: You know, we live in a global world, and increasingly

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Speaker 3: as that global world, I guess, as peace in that

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Speaker 3: global world comes more and more into question, and as

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Speaker 3: our security environment changes, it's really important, I think, to

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Speaker 3: move beyond maybe some of the stereotypes we have of

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Speaker 3: these countries and get a more nuanced understanding of how

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Speaker 3: their politics works.

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Speaker 2: Well said Tom, thanks so much for joining us today

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Speaker 2: on the podcast. I always appreciate it. Thank you, and

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Speaker 2: congrat Sara. Congrats Sara, and if you learn something from

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Speaker 2: today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe. So there's another

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Speaker 2: Banger TDA episode waiting for you every morning. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back again tomorrow. Until then, have a fantastic start to

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Speaker 2: the week.