1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,559 Speaker 1: Now that the world has largely moved out of lockdowns, 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: how has the way that you work changed? Are you 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: still working from home using virtual meetings more or maybe 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: less often? Or perhaps you're just cherishing any in person 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: conversation you can get whatever you have or haven't changed 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: about the way that you work since the beginning of 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic, We've all done one thing. We've worked in 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: a radically different way than ever before. And someone who 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: thinks a lot about the way that we work is 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Dom Price. Dom's the resident work futurist at Atlasian, the 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: mega successful software company. And there is a reason that 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: this is the third time that Dom has been on 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: How I Work, And it's because he always brings such 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: a thoughtful and novel perspective on how we work, but 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: also is an obsessive experiment like me. Dom is always 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: experimenting with something new when it comes to how he 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: approaches his work. So how is Dom currently thinking about 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: how he structures his work week? How does he set boundaries? 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: And why does Dom hate the word hybrid? My name 20 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: is doctor amanthe Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and the 21 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: founder of Behavioral Science consultancy inventium and this is How 22 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: I Work, a show about how to help you do 23 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: your best work. The last time I had Dom on 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: How I Work, we were about a year into the pandemic, 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: and we talked a lot about how his work rituals 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: had changed. So I was keen to know, now that 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: we're emerging out the other side, which habits and rituals 28 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: did Dom end up sticking with. Last time you were 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: on How I Work was we're kind of were probably 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: about a year into the pandemic, and you changed a 31 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: lot of the ways that you were working. And now 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: that we're emerging out into what is perhaps the new normal, 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: what are some of the habits and rituals that you 34 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: have cemented down now that are working for you. 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting because I think the last time we spoke, 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: we were in that weird phase of lockdown, right, and 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: so I think everyone was talking about new ways of working, 38 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: but really we were just adapting to all the constraints, right, 39 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: And as those constraints have lifted, I don't think many 40 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: people realized how much more complex life would be when 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: we lifted constraints, right, because we're like, oh my god, 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: this is an mass like it was a nightmare. But 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: we were told exactly what to do, so we just 44 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: had to comply with it. We didn't really have to 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: think you had to work from home, right, if you could, 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: you had to, Whereas now have introduced choice, which made 47 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: you know, is an absolute nightmare psychologically and you're like, oh, 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: so I could do this or I could do that. 49 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: And actually, what I think has been one of the dangers. 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: And this is the conversation that probably frustrates me the 51 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: most right now is the h word hybrid, right, because 52 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: it's used in a way where I'm like, it makes 53 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: no sense. Stop telling me that seventy eight percent of 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: people are hybrid. It doesn't mean anything. What it means, 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: like really, if we're having an honest conversation, is they 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: want to work in multiple places at any given point 57 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: in time. I think we've known that for years. People 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: want variety. That shouldn't been news to us. The real 59 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: conversation is how do we feed them that variety, and 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: how do we do that in a way that actually 61 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: makes them effective. So for me, my variety has come 62 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: from the fact that I know there's certain tasks that 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: I do that go really well from home right where 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: I've got that focus time where I can get deep. 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: I've started to build rituals around how I remove distractions. 66 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: One of my biggest distractions when I'm working from home 67 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: is the fridge, right, because I'm just like what a 68 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: snack oh like. But there's lots of things I can 69 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: go and do, and so building a bit of a 70 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: routine around that has been really helpful and blocking out 71 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: time to go really deep on stuff. And then when 72 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: do I need that intentional collaboration, that that purposeful connection. 73 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: And so I spent a month in the US in March, right, 74 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: you know, as soon as the borders were open, I 75 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: said to my boss, I said to my colleagues who 76 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: I'd not seen for years, I am feeling the need 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: to connect with you in a way that's not going 78 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: to happen via Zoom or any other technology products. And 79 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: so let me come out and I'm going to invest 80 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: a month. And it wasn't just and you get this 81 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: from the Psycho Jangle. It wasn't being physically in the 82 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: US that made a massive difference. It was the fact 83 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: that I could have a breakfast stroll with someone or 84 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: a coffee walk, right, or we could go for a 85 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: quick drink after work and just chat about stuff. And 86 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: it was that those connections that I don't think you 87 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: can quantify but suddenly start for me have a huge impact. 88 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: I actually there's a colleague that I've been working with 89 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: for nine months and I was probably on the fence 90 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: on her, to be honest, I didn't hate it, but 91 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: I didn't love her either. I'm like, yeah, she's just 92 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: irrelevant to me. And then we hung out and I 93 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, you're really cool and she's like, yes, 94 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: so are you. I thought you're a bit of an 95 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: ars and I'm like, I thought you were a bit 96 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: of a pain. And we had that chat and You're 97 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: like we were connecting and it was always seven p 98 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: for her and seven am for me, Like, no wonder, 99 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: we weren't in the same vibe. Whereas just having that 100 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: connection now, even though we now connect at seven pm 101 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: and seven am, because we've got that context of hanging 102 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: out of breaking bread together, it's now a way more 103 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: meaningful conversation. So I've started to become very purposeful with 104 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: how I plan that on an almost quarterly or annual basis. 105 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: I'm already planning my off sites for next year right 106 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: for the next twelve months to say, here's where I'm 107 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: going to be in certain locations. Let's make that purposeful 108 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: moments and in between there how do we connect? And 109 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: that for me has been life changing because it's completely 110 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: changed my working hours. The construct of nine to five 111 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 2: months Friday has well and truly gone from my calendar. However, 112 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm still getting better. I still need improvement at boundaries. 113 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: That's the bit where if I was to do my 114 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: report card right now, my needs improvement would be boundary setting. 115 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: Tell me more about that. What do you want to 116 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: improve about your boundary setting? 117 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: I actually almost look with admiration we are and look 118 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: back at times gone by with very much with roast 119 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: into glasses, right, it's like, oh, factory work is that 120 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: must have been awful. And you're like, you know, I 121 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: look at some jobs and you clock in and you 122 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: clock out. You don't have motivational days or refresh days, 123 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: and you don't have off sites, you don't you don't 124 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: have any of that stuff. But also you've just got 125 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: that certainty nine to five Meditaranian when it comes to five, 126 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: you clock out and you go and do your thing, 127 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: and that thing is completely separate from work. It could 128 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 2: be socializing with with with friends, it could be doing 129 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: stuff with family. And I look, now, I had this 130 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: observation recently. I was just walking around the mall and 131 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: I saw the number of people that weren't there. They 132 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: were there, but they were on a phone, or they're 133 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: at a kid soccer game and they're on the phone 134 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: or a device. And I'm like, wouldn't it be nice 135 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: if when we were there, we were truly there? And 136 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: so I've been trying to practice that. I think what 137 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: happened for me, and it's probably not dissimilar to a 138 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: lot of people, those boundaries became very blurry. Right. My 139 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: boundary was the physical commute to work, and when that 140 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: became a set of stairs in my apartment, I'm like, 141 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: that's less of a boundary. So I've I've spent probably 142 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: three years cutting finer and finer how late I can 143 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: set my alarm right, which is a boy is very late, 144 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: and my Godfrien's like, don't you have a meeting? I'm like, 145 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: I've got ages, yet I don't have to walk up 146 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: at flight stairs and then go on right. And so 147 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, that's taking advantage of that boundary, But 148 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: then when do I need to reset that? When do 149 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: I need to be not sat there on the couch 150 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: at night on my phone because I can check my email, 151 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: but I don't need to check my email. And actually 152 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: that boundary setting has been healthy for me and my 153 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: teammates because they're globally distributed. So we actually entered into 154 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: a game we spun up a new team earlier this 155 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: year called working agreement. What's our social contract with each other? 156 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: When do we slack each other? When do we email? 157 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: When do we write something on a page? And what's 158 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: our end of day's start of day? Like, so we 159 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: have these almost seamless handovers so that if I wrap 160 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: something up today, I can't leave it in the lurch, 161 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: so that the person who gets online in the US 162 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: tomorrow has no idea what that thing was, so almost 163 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: like a start of day end of day that we 164 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: used to have it in a shop, right, and little 165 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: stuff around what would have to be so urgent that 166 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: needed a WhatsApp message, right, or what goes in the 167 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: WhatsApp group message that's just bantt all right, So that's 168 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: the fun stuff. Work stuff is in slack, right, and 169 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: just so we have a social contract with each other 170 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: about how we engage and when we engage. And as 171 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: part of that, I was like, if I messaged you 172 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: on the weekend on Slack or email or confiment, it's 173 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: not urgent. That's just me feeling energetic at the weekend 174 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: and working. That doesn't mean I assume you respond. So 175 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: if you want to respond, you can, but you don't 176 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: have to. I don't expect you to. It's fine to wait. 177 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: And so yeah, even prefacing like emails and slap messages 178 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: not urgent. I started adding that some messages because I 179 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: sent on a message on the weekend because I was 180 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: moving house and I had some time in between moving, 181 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm going to send you on 182 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 2: a message I had something to send them not urgent. 183 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: I don't respond until the next week, but I wanted 184 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: to choose that moment to send it. So there's little 185 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: social contracts like that that we're experimenting with to say, 186 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: what is our broad agreement with each other and how 187 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 2: do we not overstep those boundaries. 188 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: So with the working agreement and correct me if I'm wrong, 189 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: but I believe that there is an Iglessian play in 190 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: your Team playbook about developing one. Can you tell me 191 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: how you've gone about developing a working agreement with your 192 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: own team? 193 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. Actually, this won't surprise you because you're smartly, 194 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: we won't surprise you. This is we didn't do one 195 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: at first, right, it's funny. We were the team that 196 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: helped create it, and we're like, no, no, we'll just 197 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: start right. And then after a few weeks of fumbling 198 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: around each other and miscommunication and people sort of like 199 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: I thought you're going to be on that call and 200 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: what about this? Right, and we're like, hang on, We've 201 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 2: done the thing that all great teams do. We created 202 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: a great way of working. We've not followed ourselves, right. 203 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: We thought we were better than that. So we're like, okay, 204 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: let's go back to basics. Let's start. One of the 205 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: things that there was sort of prefaced that was roles 206 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: and responsibilities. You know, one of the mistakes I made 207 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 2: with that team. They're all quite experienced. I made the 208 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: mistake that experience meant we knew how to work together, 209 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: and it didn't. Experience just means experience, And so we 210 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: kind of again fumbled through, like okay, what are our roles? 211 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: Where are the boundaries, where are the overlaps way want 212 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: to work together on stuff and why and how does 213 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: that work? And then the working agreement was a conversation 214 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: of what's our rhythm and cadence and what does that 215 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: look and smell and feel like little things like what's 216 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: the right amount of time to be debating decisions? Right, 217 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 2: when do we make decisions? When do we do backlog grooming, 218 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: When do we talk about progress? And when do we 219 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 2: do demos? When do we take like of all the 220 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: stuff we've gone and learned when we're doing our deep work, 221 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 2: how do we bring that back and understanding that rhythm 222 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: and cadence. Because we were spun up as a team 223 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 2: to run an experiment and so the first part of 224 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: our agreement was our hypothesis and it says the most 225 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: important thing for the next six months is to learn. 226 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: And we wrote that down and everyone's like okay, and 227 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: it was like, just read that again. Not deliver, right, 228 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 2: not deploy, not ship, but learn. So therefore, what does 229 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: that mean for how we share? Because I'm not worried 230 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: about how much progress you made this week. I'm worried 231 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: about how many insights we've got that have enabled us 232 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: to learn something that means that next week we do 233 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: something different. Right, So it was actually elevating the recognition 234 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: on learning and almost lowering the recognition on delivery, which 235 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: a traditional team would have it opposite way ran And 236 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: so it's like, if our focus is learning, what does 237 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 2: that mean for how we work together? How do we 238 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 2: be come open? Because what I didn't want was for 239 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: everyone to go off and run experiments and come back 240 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: and feel like every experiment should be successful. So the 241 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: first experiment we thought around, I'm like, right, this went 242 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: catastrophically wrong. Awesome, let's talk about that. Because if we're 243 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: not willing to share the lessons learned in a vulnerable, 244 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: authentic and safe space, we're not an experimental team anymore. 245 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: And so again, some of it was written down in 246 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: the working agreement, some of it was just a conversation 247 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: that needed to be had to sort of paint that 248 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: picture of what kind of team are we and therefore 249 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: what does this look and smell and feel like? And 250 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: for me it made me reflect how few times, even 251 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: though I think I'm a bit of an expert, is 252 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: how few times I actually do that. I assume it 253 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: and I fill in the gaps and Actually, it didn't 254 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: take long to have that conversation and it's held us 255 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 2: in very good stead. 256 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: You mentioned looking at communication preferences with your team one 257 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: of the things around the working agreement. What were some 258 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: of the questions that you asked yourselves as a team 259 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: to land on how you would communicate. 260 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it comes down to what's our normal communication. 261 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: And that bits relatively straightforward, right, You're like, I prefer 262 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: this these formats, right, it's email versus confluence this. It's like, 263 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: like there's multiple channels and what goes in what channel? 264 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: If we want to have a rich debate, then then 265 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: stick it on a page and we can comment if 266 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: you're on a quick comment, it's like and so that 267 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: was relatively tactical. What became more important was how do 268 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: we deal with exceptions? Right? And it's the edge cases 269 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: in life. And one of the exceptions was feedback and like, 270 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: we're a new team, so how do we give each 271 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: other feedback? Because I know my style, my styles in 272 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: the moment with an example, Apparently some people find that 273 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: quite confronting and I'm like, I didn't know that, because 274 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 2: that's my preferred style. That's how I like to receive it. 275 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: Therefore I assume that's how I should give it, and 276 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: actually almost the opposite is true. Right. I work with 277 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: is a couple of colleagues I work with. They prefer 278 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: feedback written, and they want to digest it and they 279 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: want to think about it and they want to mull 280 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: over it, and then they will reply and I will 281 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: get a very detailed reply from them. I've got another 282 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: colleague who want to in the moment straight away. If 283 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: I give it any within a millisecond late, it's gone. 284 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: The moment's gone. If I give it right there and 285 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 2: then and they're like Okay, got it, and you can 286 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 2: literally see the cargo around They're like okay, got it, 287 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: and they move on and the behaviors changed. Intant me, 288 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, this is brilliant and so but it's 289 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: not right or wrong. It's just different. And so it 290 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: tends to be around crucial conversations. But one of the 291 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: crucial conversations that I missed, right. I love thinking about 292 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 2: mistakes because I think I learn more from the things 293 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: that go wrong. As part of this experiment, I'd set 294 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: the team a pretend deadline of the end of June, 295 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: so we started this early in the year. I was like, 296 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: by the end of June, and we want to have 297 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: made a certain amount of progress. They what they heard 298 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: me say, right was at the end of June, you'll 299 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: have to reapply for your jobs. I never said that, 300 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: but that's what they heard. And so they're panicking because 301 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: this June deadline is looming, and they're like, what's going 302 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: on now. I know we're going to continue the experiment 303 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: because I'm like, this is going really well. I'm over 304 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: the moon, I'm doing high fives all around, I'm skipping. 305 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: I'm like, this is going so well. We're going to 306 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: continue with the experiment. We've got these medium term plans. 307 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: June for me, was a milestone to say, let's race 308 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: towards June and make a certain amount of progress. Then 309 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: in June, let's reevaluate. We'll always continue. We're always going to, 310 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: but let's reevaluate in which direction do we continue. It's 311 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: not whether we do continue or not, it's like, do 312 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: we twist a bit to the left, do we twist 313 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: a bit to the right. I didn't communicate that. I 314 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: thought I did because I knew it in my head. 315 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: It just never quite made it out of my mouth. 316 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: And so we had probably a good couple of weeks 317 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: of thrashing until someone sidles. We did a retrospective and 318 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: one of the one of the pieces of feedback with 319 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: We're like, we're really struggling with the June deadline, like 320 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: are we going to still have jobs? And I was like, 321 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: what do we like? I was like, I was like 322 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: completely bamboozled by the whole thing. I was like, Oh, essentially, 323 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: it's really easy to think about conversations, right, and how 324 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: do I communicate sorry conversations. It's a lot harder to 325 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: think about how do we do crucial conversations and how 326 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: do we do those in a distributed world, right, because 327 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: we've just added a layer of complex, which is we're 328 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: not in person, We've got less signals. Right. There's, however, 329 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: many percent less signals on a sort of two by 330 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: two screen than there is if you're in that room 331 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: with a person, you can truly empathize and work with 332 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: them on it. So I think what I did and 333 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: what we did was we avoided crucial conversations. And then 334 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: you're like, that's that's not cool, that that's not going 335 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: to help. So therefore, how do we demonstrate not only 336 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: a crucial conversation are okay, they're essential, and how do 337 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: we have more of them in a safe environment. And 338 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: we've been practicing that more and more recently, and our 339 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: momentum is benefited because of it, because we're having them early. Right, 340 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: it's not a confrontation anymore, it's a what do we 341 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: do about X? Right? An X suddenly becomes an independent thing. 342 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: It's not me versus you. It's not a battle anymore. 343 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: It's like, here's a problem we need to solve. How 344 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: do we solve it together? 345 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk about face to face versus virtual communication. 346 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: So you mentioned you're looking far into the future and 347 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: planning your face to face connection moments. Where do you 348 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: feel for yourself that face to face communication far like 349 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: has far greater benefits and what you can get virtually. 350 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: So my sort of theoretical stance on it, and it's 351 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: also my practical stance is high fidelty, high risk, high return, 352 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: high anything. Right. So essentially, you know, we had an 353 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: off site in March in Sonoma, right, lovely wine country 354 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: in San Francisco, And when we were pulling together the agenda, 355 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: we basically took the agenda from the last time we 356 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: got oh, which was years ago, just a normal off site. 357 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: That was a time when we had off sites many 358 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: times a year, and we just rolled that forward. I 359 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, times are different. 360 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: Things have changed. So I'm going to get my theoretical 361 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: machety and I'm going to start hacking at this agenda 362 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: because it's a complete modele. And essentially we removed anything 363 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: that could be a video call. And it was a 364 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: weird approach. It's like, here's all the stuff, and like 365 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: that strategy goals, You're like, okay, I find all that stuff, 366 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: which of that can honestly be done as an asynchronous 367 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: or synchronous video call? And you're like, okay, well these 368 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: things can. Right. Therefore, what's the only things that can 369 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: be done in person? The demand for fidelities so high, 370 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: The return for the for the fidelity of that conversation, 371 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: for the richness of the tapestry of that conversation, for 372 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: the ability to do it in real time and to 373 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 2: have those extra signals is so high. It has to 374 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: be in And when we raised the bar on that 375 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: and raised we raised the ceiling and we raised the floor. 376 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: Everything went up and we're like, oh, this is what 377 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: goes in and actually we started to value way more 378 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: team cohesion. We actually started to then this is a 379 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: bit of a weird one. We planned for unplanned time. 380 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 2: It's like, let's have time in the schedule for serendipity. 381 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: And everyone's like that seems like a waste. And I 382 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: was like, no, no, like and someone said to me, 383 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: do you mean buffer? I said no, no, no, it's 384 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 2: not so you can run over and you're boring presentation. 385 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: It's so we've got time to go. I just fancy 386 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: a coffee. Does anyone want to come for one and 387 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: just have an incidental conversation because I can't tell you 388 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: when I'll use that conversation, but I can guarantee that 389 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: a will, And so that that's just you know, we're 390 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: still experimenting with it. We're by no means perfect. It's 391 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: easy again to default to the old way of doing 392 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: off sites. We've got years and years of practice at it. 393 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 2: We just know it's not actually going to help us, 394 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: and so we're getting a lot a lot better at that. 395 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: We will be back with Dom shortly talking about how 396 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: his research has revealed that burnout is actually increasing despite 397 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: pandemic restrictions. Easing and what can be done about this? 398 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 399 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 400 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 401 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 402 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for 403 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. 404 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: I'd love to know how you think about managing your 405 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: own well being. It's kind of on that day to 406 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: day level, like we just before we hit record, where 407 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, you were talking about your life is really 408 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: chaotic at the moment, and I was having a winch 409 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: about the fact that I had to get cortizone injections 410 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: in my right shoulder. I can't really move it at 411 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: the moment, and that's just, you know, I'm just having 412 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: a little pity party for myself at the moment, even 413 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: though it will resolve itself very soon. 414 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you do? 415 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean, your work requires so much of yourself, so 416 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: much energy, and so much passion and optimism, and I 417 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: love how you bring that to every conversation we have. 418 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: But I'm sure that you have many days where You're 419 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: just like, I just want to stay in bed, and 420 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: I just don't have the energy to bring to this conversation. 421 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: How do you what do you do? 422 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 2: Stay in bed? Stay in bed? I do I do 423 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: a month because I think one of the things I've learned, 424 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: and you know a bit about my story with with 425 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: like personal health and mental health and stuff, is I've learned, 426 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 2: like probably a bit late in life. I'm forty four now, 427 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 2: to listen, listen to those signals, Like there's times when 428 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: I'm like, it's not going to work today. A couple 429 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: of Thursdays ago is the two year anniversary of my 430 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: sister passing. Me and my girlfriend both took the day off. 431 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 2: We went to Freshwater Beach in Sydney, watch the sunrise, 432 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: stroll around, grabbed some breakfast, meeped around, We voted early. 433 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: There's a whold of stuff we got done. But we 434 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: had a day for just me and her. Right, and 435 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: our new tradition is we get we call it fucked up. Right. 436 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 2: She puts a nice dress on, I put a nice 437 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 2: outfit on, and we go to a different nice restaurant 438 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 2: in Sydney for a late lunch. And I'm like, we 439 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: always joke like, will this be our lifestyle instead of 440 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: it being one day a year? Is there going to 441 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: be a time when this is normal, when we're sipping 442 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: a chardonnaye and not caring about the world at two 443 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: pm and watching the sun? And I might probably not, 444 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: not in the near future, but but it's to listen, right, 445 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: to listen to my body. And then the other thing is, 446 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 2: I am I got some great advice from a mentor 447 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: years ago. I need some help on some stuff. And 448 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: I arrived at the conversation and I did. I thought 449 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: it was a very English thing. Apparently it's just a 450 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: very human thing. Where I arrived and I just winged 451 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: and then after five minutes she was like, right, that's 452 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: just five minutes of winging up. This is a session 453 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: where we fixed, not winge. So how do you want 454 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: to spend the next fifty five minutes? And I was 455 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: like oh, And I was like and she's like, well, 456 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: the first five minutes was cathartic. Now you've got it 457 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: off your chest, what are you going to do about it? 458 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: And I was like, I thought, here, just a wine 459 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: for an hour and maybe you do agree with me, 460 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: and I just feel better. And she's like, no, Like, 461 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 2: if this is a real mental relationship, we're gonna help 462 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: you fix it. And by the way, she's like, I've 463 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: not got the answer. I'm just here to ask questions. 464 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: You've got the answer. And so it was very confronting 465 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: at the time, and I was like, Ah, I probably 466 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: have got the answer, but whilst I'm in that five 467 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: minute pity party, I'm definitely not going to find the answer. 468 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 2: And so how do we do the time switch? Right? 469 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: So I always, even when I use that now and 470 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 2: I'm coaching on mentoring others, I'm like, you've had your 471 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 2: five minutes of winge and sulk. What are we going 472 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: to do about it? Right from now on? And so 473 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: I have a word etched at the back of my head, 474 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 2: which is deocracy. I'm a massive fact if I ever 475 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 2: bothered to write a book, if I was as smart 476 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: as you, I'd write a book. But I'm not. It 477 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: would be called deuocracy, which is how do we move 478 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: from this? I have this belief that as a society 479 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: we suffer with knowledge obesity, and I think it's what 480 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: causes some of the burnout. We gather all these debtor 481 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 2: and insights, we don't do anything with it. Right, I'm 482 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: constantly reading about what it takes to get fit, but 483 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: at no point have I got on a treadmill, right, 484 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: I've not gone for a walk. So I'm like, I've 485 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: got knowledge, obeestic, you know what I need to do. 486 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: I need to eat less chocolate and I need to 487 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 2: walk more. Like it's not hard, but for some reason 488 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: we just block it out. And so I'm like, instead 489 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: of knowledge, OBEs tea, let's turn it into a deocracy. 490 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: And so all I do is I look for the 491 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: one thing I can do. One thing. So my if 492 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: you flip that one of my trigger phrases right now 493 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: is best practice. Right. It drives me insane because it 494 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: doesn't exist. And so my marketing brethrens that at LASTI 495 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: and hate me because every time that I'm like, there's 496 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: no such thing as best, how do you know it's best? 497 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: And they're like, well, it's a common known phrase. No 498 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: it don't use it. It doesn't make any sense. It's patronizing, 499 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 2: it's condescending, and it's ignorant. So let's instead go for better, 500 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: and let's look at incrementally, what's the one thing I 501 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: can do right now in this time horizon. It could 502 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: be today, it could be this hour, could be this week. 503 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: The one thing I can do to make something better 504 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: by intent doesn't mean it will be better. My intent 505 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: is to make it better. And then my job is 506 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 2: did it make it better? Yes? Or no? If it did, 507 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 2: do more of it. If it didn't, what can I 508 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: do differently? And so basically, instead of thinking about life 509 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: as input, process output, this linear thing, I think about 510 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: life as a loop. My job is to make that 511 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: loop tight and to have many loops. That's my job 512 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: as a human right. If I have these giant, long loops, 513 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 2: I'm not learning quick enough. My learning velocity is too slow, 514 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: and by the time I find something out, I'm annoyed 515 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 2: because it's taken too long. So lots of small learning loops. 516 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 2: And so when I sign up for that, I'm like, cool. 517 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: If I'm signing up for a small learning loop, what's 518 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: the one thing I can do to get around the loop? 519 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: What's the one thing I can try right? And that way, 520 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 2: instead of looking at all the things in your way 521 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: that are frustrations, you find the one thing you can 522 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 2: do and suddenly you're building momentum forward. I still look 523 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: in the rear view mirror because that's where I get 524 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 2: a lot of my lessons learned. I'm just not sort 525 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: of nostalgic wondering about the good old days, because today's 526 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: the good old days. We are creating the good old 527 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: days today. And as soon as we wake up to that, 528 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, instead of wallowing about what it used 529 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: to be, like, yeah, I joined it lastly in a 530 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: Mantha when it's five hundred people who's so friendly and 531 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 2: family orienty, and you're like, I get that. We've all 532 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: got history, we've all got a story, but it won't 533 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: be a five hundred personal organization again. So wake up 534 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: to the reality that it's now. This has what can 535 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: we do to still make it fun? And family are 536 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: a nimble and all the things because you own that, right, 537 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: there's not this weird system that decides that for you, 538 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: right you You make that choice every single day. And 539 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 2: so for me, that deuocracy mindset really helps me get 540 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: through those those slow days, those hard times when I'm 541 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: like it's all broken, it's not gonna work, is waste time. 542 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: I'm like, actually, you know what, stop, what's the one thing. 543 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: There's always one thing we can do, and then you 544 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: do it and you're like, ah, suddenly the shoulders come 545 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: up a little bit. And then you do one more thing. 546 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: You're like, ah, now I've got a little bit of mojo. Right. 547 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: Then you do the third thing. You're like, now, now 548 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: the ViBe's going. Now I can feel it. It all 549 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: started with one thing. 550 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to get into an example of that. 551 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: So let's just say you've got a day where you 552 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: can't just have a sleep in, or you can't go 553 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: for a fucked up lunch with your girlfriend. Let's just 554 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: say you're delivering a keynote and you have to bring 555 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: that top notch domb energy that you are famous for, 556 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: but you're just feeling a bit rubbish. So take me 557 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: through what I'm sure you've had those situations. 558 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 2: It's easy. That happens all the time. 559 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: So what do you do? 560 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: What do you do? 561 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: What is your process? 562 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: So the first again, everything that I share with you, 563 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 2: i've learned from others, right, not none, I must get 564 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: a trademark. None of this is original thoughts. So someone 565 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: who was coaching me years ago sat me down and 566 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: she's a wonderful human being and she's like, done, You 567 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 2: need to realize that no one gives us bleep about 568 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: what you've been through. And I was like, and I 569 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: had all these responses, and she's like, honestly, like they 570 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 2: do care, and even if they pretend to care, they're 571 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: really dumb. But essentially flip it, right, So what she 572 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: said to me is like, so if you take the example, 573 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: there's an event a few weeks ago and I wasn't 574 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: feeling up for it. There was a huge amount I 575 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: had on. I had a lot of distractions. I was 576 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: moving house, I was trying to pack boxes, I was 577 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: run down with a bit of flu. There's a whole 578 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: of stuff going on, and I reckon I could have 579 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: put a good case together to have not gone to 580 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: the event. But then I'm like, well, if I don't go, 581 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 2: here's the downside impact, here's the people I've let down, right, 582 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: and here's what happens. And my goal in life, right, 583 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: So my goal in life isn't financial. My goal in 584 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: life is to have positive impacts on others so they 585 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 2: can lead a better life. And I focus that around work. Right, 586 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: if I can make everyone's work life one degree better, 587 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: then I can retire, right, because we've all had a 588 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: marginal improvement. And I'm looking, and I'm like, well, if 589 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: I don't go to this event, no one else has 590 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: got my mission, so no one else is going to 591 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: do that. So it's missed from the event, that impact 592 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: doesn't happen. So I'm like, right, in that case, I 593 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: might need to just squeeze myself out of my little 594 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: pity party and then get on with it. Now. The 595 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: things I won't sacrifice are health. So there's been probably 596 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 2: there's been a handful event in the last year where 597 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: I had to switch them from in person to virtual 598 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: because my health wouldn't allow it. And I was like, Okay, 599 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: I still want to do the event because I've got 600 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: the energy. I just can't physically get to you. And 601 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: that compromise was reached. But I've not missed a single 602 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: event because I can always get myself up for that 603 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: because I'm like, the energy I get isn't fake energy. 604 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: It's the energy I get from knowing that I'm improving 605 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: someone's life, right, And so whether it be twenty people 606 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: or twenty thousand, and you know this from the stuff 607 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: you and you're in that room and one person comes 608 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: up to you asked, was in like, here's how you 609 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: inspired me? And here's the thing I'm going to do differently. 610 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: I'm like, I've done my job right. That's because and 611 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: sometimes you get it on the day. A lot of 612 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: times I get linked in messages three six months afterwards, 613 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: like here's what I thought about your presentation and here's 614 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 2: the thing I went to do. I am not looking 615 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: for anyone to be inspired or anyone to nod. I 616 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 2: genuinely don't care about that. All I want to know 617 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: is what's the thing that you did. What's the thing 618 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 2: that you tried afterwards like that to create a new 619 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: path for yourself and did it work or not? And 620 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: if it, like, what did you learn from it? That's 621 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: all I want to know. And when I see that happen, 622 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 2: that's my energy. So I'm like, if I lay in bed, 623 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: I don't get that energy. If I go to the 624 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: event and I change one person's life, let alone thousands 625 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 2: of people's lives, suddenly that energy comes back and you're like, wow, 626 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: Like I actually helped someone, And for me, there's nothing 627 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: more fulfilling my currency. My fuel in life is helping 628 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: someone else, at least their potential, right, I get a 629 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: huge amount of satisfaction from it. And so when I 630 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: see that happening. That is my life fuel, right, and 631 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: I get tons of it, and so that's where the 632 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: energy comes from. So therefore I might as well put 633 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: myself at the source. 634 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: I can very much relate to what you said, and 635 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: I feel like we're on similar missions. I want to 636 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: know about decision making because I imagine you, and particularly 637 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: off the back of your Ted ex Sydney Ted talk 638 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago now, which has 639 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: been viewed how many times? 640 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: Now dom just under two million. I'm desperate for it 641 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: to get to two million, but it's cranking along. 642 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: I'll watch it a few times today that might help. 643 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: But I imagine that you must be inundated with requests 644 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: on your time, whether they be to speak at an event, 645 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: to be on a panel, to write a guest contribution 646 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: or an op ed. How do you decide what to 647 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: say yes to? Given your like we're on similar missions. 648 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: I struggle with similar decisions, and I want to know 649 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: do you have a framework or a method that you use. 650 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: It's funny I had a colleague a few years ago 651 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: that tried to make it into a RUBRICI wanted a 652 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: decision tree, and I had to explain that the nuance 653 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 2: of what we're dealing with here, it doesn't fall like 654 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: some of it does. Maybe sixty percent of it can 655 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 2: fall into a decision tree and you put it through 656 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: the tree and it comes out yes or no, but 657 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: it still leaves you about forty percent where you're like, 658 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: it depends, right, And my answer to that question is 659 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: almost always it depends. And so that depends is what 660 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: am I some of the things I need to make 661 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 2: that decision? What are my current goals and mission? What 662 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: am I going after? Which of those are personal versus work? 663 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: And I do that unashamably, Like I talk a lot 664 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: to simply Scott, one of our co founders, you know, 665 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: early on when I started on my mission, and there 666 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: was an event I did, and he asked me a 667 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: great question. He's like, was that an event for Dorma 668 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: for it Lassian? And I was like, why do they 669 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: need to be different? I like, it was for both, 670 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: but there was something in it for me And I'm 671 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: not going to say sorry for that because I'm a 672 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 2: human and I deserve that. And we had a really 673 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: good conversation. Let know you do, but like it came 674 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: from a place of intrigu how do you is the balance, 675 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: and so for me, I'm like, is it going to 676 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: move the needle on one of the things I care about? 677 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: And so that could be reach, audience, reach, it could 678 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: be the persona of the audience I'm trying to reach 679 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: for it. Lastly, and stuff. It could be related to 680 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: our markets or brand or like what tier is newspaper, 681 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: whatever it is, and how we get out there. But 682 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: essentially it comes down to the eword again, which is impact. 683 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: And so I get a huge amount of invites for 684 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: private client events. You know, company X wants to do this, 685 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: come and do our offsite and I'm like, okay, I can, 686 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: but that's quite low impact, right. Or I can go 687 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: and do a keynote to twenty thousand people, which seems 688 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: like high impact, but it's not because I get twenty 689 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: thousand nods but no follow through. So I like, for example, 690 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: I did an event recently with about fifty C suite execs, 691 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: and so said to me, I our fifty It's not 692 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: a massive reach, And I was like, fifty C suite 693 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: execs And instead of a keynote, I made it a workshop. 694 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: Really high impact. And so there's different ways of measuring 695 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: impact and then the bouncing item for me is every 696 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: now and then an event comes along and I'm like, 697 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: you know what I can do it. I've got the time, 698 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: I've got the capacity, even if it's an internal event 699 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: and it's not high impact. To get my impact, I 700 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: charge a speaker fee, and then one hundred percent of 701 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: my speaker fee goes to room to read in Cambodia, 702 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: to open libraries and stuff like. It either goes to 703 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: the room to read, ours harvest or a Dara. So 704 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: I have three charities and actually I'm going to do 705 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: a LinkedIn post in the next week or so. In 706 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: the last eighteen months, I've just hit five hundred grand 707 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: to charity. So half a million dollars of speaker fees 708 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: that could have gone into my pocket. And this isn't 709 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: a brag. It could have gone into my pocket, it's not. 710 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: It's all gone to charities to have an impact, right, 711 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: to make the world a better place. And so I 712 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: think that's part of our shared mission. Right, even when 713 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: we can't directly impact the person, which I can in 714 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 2: a conference room or in a workshop, how can I 715 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: impact others less fortunate than me and you? And I 716 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: do that through donating my speaker fee. So I think 717 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: there's always ways of finding an impact. That means that 718 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: me and you end up with still too many requests. 719 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: So it's like what goes above the bar on a yes? 720 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: Is that X next level of impact? What I've done 721 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: is speaking is only a small part of my job, 722 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: and so I now have taken a portfolio approach. I 723 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: did this with my boss when we're in San Francisco. 724 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: I mapped out the portfolio of how I think about 725 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: my work and how in any given month the stuff 726 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 2: I'm doing. That's time horizon one. Immediate gratification. I did 727 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: an interview last week with Yahoo that will be in 728 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: the paper this week. Okay, immediate gratification. What's the seeds 729 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: I'm planting for time horizon two? And what are the 730 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: things I'm thinking about planting, which is time horizon three. 731 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to do the work this month. It's not 732 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: going to pay a dividend for three, six, nine months, 733 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: And so I look at that as a portfolio approach, 734 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 2: and as part of that, I've ring fenced his the 735 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: maximum amount of time I'm going to spend speaking, doing workshops, 736 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: doing cout for events. How do I therefore get the 737 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: highest return from that. And so it's a very financial model, 738 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: but it's not financial dollars. It's impact that the score is. 739 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: I so, which if I'm going to cut about fifteen 740 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: percent of my time my work time for speaking, and 741 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 2: that includes travel and everything else. Therefore, if I've got 742 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 2: an event that takes so I got invited to an 743 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: event in the US, I'm like, even though the event 744 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: itself was in high impact and probably only forty five minutes, 745 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: he was in New York and they weren't me in person. 746 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: So I'm like, well, that's a week out, so for 747 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: a week the return would have to be huge. It's not. 748 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: I've got a colleague in the US now, so I'm like, right, 749 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: you do it. Like I've built a succession plan. I 750 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: want to make myself redundant, and so I've now got 751 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 2: a local colleague who can serve as the local market. 752 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: It makes complete sense because it's not worth the impact 753 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 2: score for me to do that when he can do it. 754 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: Or I've got another colleague in Europe and che can 755 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: do and so trying to find the balance, and then 756 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: essentially I'm like, if I'm having to debate, it's a no, right, 757 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: which is my default now. I'm like, if I'm having 758 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 2: to think too much, stick it in the no category 759 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: and let them fight for it. And so if I 760 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: say no and they don't come back, it wasn't a 761 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: massive deal. Anyway. There was one recently where I said 762 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: no and the guy came back and he's like, they 763 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: really want you. How do we make this work? And 764 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, let's have a conversation. That's worth a 765 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: conversation because what are you seeing that I'm not? And 766 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 2: that was a good chat. But on the whole, it's 767 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: a straight yes, it's a straight no. And if I'm 768 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: debating too much in the middle, if I want to 769 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: spend more than ten minutes doing a score and arbitracing, 770 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: it goes straight in the no category. It can always 771 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: pop its head back up. I love that. 772 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: I like the idea of applying the three horizons thinking 773 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: to your own work, and particularly in the context of 774 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: thought leadership as opposed to new products and services that 775 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: you're creating. What percentage of your week or your month 776 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: goes towards each of those three horizons or time periods? 777 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, my goal is to minimize time horizon one. We 778 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: have nine thousand Atlassians who can do immediate gratification really well, 779 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 2: there's no point me doing that. I like it because 780 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 2: you get that kick, right, you get the adrenaline kick, 781 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 2: and you get all the all the courts, and you 782 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: get all that and you're like, oh, the euphoria and 783 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 2: then it flops right, you fall off the cliff is 784 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 2: pointless for me, So I focus on two time horizon 785 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: two and three, and then I have to be really 786 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: clear that there's significantly more volatility in three. So well, 787 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: that means is if I'm doing something this week that 788 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 2: I don't think is going to pay back for three 789 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: or six months, the chances are it might not. So 790 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: the great thing about immediate gratification is not an it immediate, 791 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: it's highly likely. Right, we know when we do that 792 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: thing it's going to produce a return. Whereas there's a 793 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: holder of stuff and I think I've got slightly better 794 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: over time at honing that. But I'm like, it's not 795 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: a game of certainty, it's a game of confidence. So 796 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 2: I'm confident that that make makes sense. Right When you 797 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 2: message me the other week and you're like, I'd looked 798 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: to have another chat, I haven't got something that says, 799 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: I am certain that this will happen, and here's what 800 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: will happen Off the back of it. I'm like, I'm 801 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 2: confident I'll enjoy a chat with Amantha, and I'm confident 802 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: there'll be a good conversation, and I'm confident that she's 803 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: got a really self aware, smart audience will listen to it. 804 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: There you go, right, And so it works on degrees 805 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: of confidence, and then if those degrees are high enough, 806 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: then we plant the seed. Then then the job. And 807 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: this is the important bit about working in time horizon 808 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: two or three for anyone, that is, anyone a strategy 809 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: or a longer term thing. En role is how much 810 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 2: you nurture. So for every seed I plan, I have 811 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 2: a rule that in the next quarter, I have to 812 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: corve out some time to nurture that seed or find 813 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: someone to nurture it for me, because otherwise I plant 814 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 2: all these wonderful seeds and I wonder off go and 815 00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 2: doing my thing, and I come back a few months 816 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: so there's no forest there. There's a whole lot of 817 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 2: dead seats. So I'm like, okay, either if I go 818 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 2: and plant all those seeds and I get really carried 819 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: away and plant all these ideas, either I nurture them 820 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 2: or I have to find someone to nurture them for me, right, 821 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 2: otherwise they're down the vine. And so that's just an 822 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: approaches I do. I go sort of three year plan 823 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: to one year time horizon, which is my three year 824 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: plans like forty percent Fidelty so painted picture, it's not 825 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 2: even written words. Right. My one year is here's what 826 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: the outcome looks like, and is still quite a stretch goal. 827 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: And then quarterly is a little bit more transactional for 828 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 2: the team to give them those benchmarks. But you know 829 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: that enables us to go if we're doing this in 830 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 2: Q one, we already built a plant for next year. 831 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: If we're planting seeds in Q one, we need a 832 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 2: planning Q two and Q three to nurture those seeds. 833 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 2: So rather than going doing more seed planting, how do 834 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 2: we turn Q two and Q three into nurturing. 835 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Well, I'm very glad that you thought that 836 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: this was a good investment. If you're timed off, I'm 837 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: hopefully a safe bit given you've been on the show before. Now, 838 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: so people that want to connect with you and consume 839 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: more of what you're writing and talking about what is 840 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: the best way for listeners to do that. 841 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 2: All the ways you can find me on LinkedIn quite 842 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: is he Dominic Price or I have my own website, 843 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 2: Donprice dot me. Between those two you'll find everything that 844 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: you need and also links to the Alassian Team playbook 845 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 2: that you mentioned before with working agreements. There is a 846 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 2: hoolad more content we've been experimenting with a team working 847 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: on distributed ways of working hoload more content that will 848 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: make its way to the playbook in the near future. 849 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: So everyone was looking at ways of building more effective teams. 850 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: That's a great place to go and look a Lassian 851 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: team playbook dot com. 852 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: Amazing, Dom, I just I learned so much whenever I 853 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: speak to you, So I'm just I'm so grateful that 854 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 1: you've given myself with listeners of how I work, another 855 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: hour of your time. 856 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: So thank you well, thanks. I always learn a lot 857 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 2: from you as well, so thanks for having me much appreciated. 858 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: I loved what dom had to say about how he 859 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: picks himself up from his own pity party when he 860 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: just doesn't feel like going to work, and to flip 861 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: the thought and ask what would happen if I wasn't there, 862 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: and I think that if you're really connected in with 863 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: your purpose and a doing work that is aligned with that, 864 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: it's such a great motivator when you're just not in 865 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: the mood to do what's in your diary. How I 866 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from dead 867 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, 868 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: and thank you to Matt Nimba, who does the audio 869 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much 870 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.