Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and
Speaker 1: on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. What a week it has been.
Speaker 1: I've been overwhelmed with the feedback on last week's episode,
Speaker 1: which send it around Binge's new TV series Catch and
Speaker 1: Kill the podcast tapes. I am shocked and a little
Speaker 1: saddened with the amount of people who had Harvey Weinstein's
Speaker 1: stories to share, but sadly the amount of stories from
Speaker 1: subscribers who share their stories regarding an abuse of power.
Speaker 1: I think the episode was a little heavy, but also
Speaker 1: an important story to tell. I have been listening to
Speaker 1: a podcast called West Cork, which centers around the murder
Speaker 1: of a famous actress in Ireland. I lived in Ireland
Speaker 1: for a time and I remember hearing different versions of
Speaker 1: this particular crime in It actually was my first dip
Speaker 1: into true crime, which obviously is one of the most
Speaker 1: popular podcast categories on these platforms. This week, I've been
Speaker 1: watching a new TV series called White Lotus on Binge,
Speaker 1: which is really bizarre in the best way possible. If
Speaker 1: you want something out of the bag and really unusual,
Speaker 1: then check this one out. It set us around some twisted,
Speaker 1: dark secrets set in a popular resort. The acting is
Speaker 1: first class and I am totally hooked. I'm also about
Speaker 1: to start the latest series of American Horror Story, but
Speaker 1: I think i'll get back to you on that one
Speaker 1: next week. This week I have Caitlin Shay, who is
Speaker 1: an executive producer of ABC's Australian Story. It's actually hard
Speaker 1: to believe, but Caitlin has been on the show for
Speaker 1: twenty five years and is currently tuning in some of
Speaker 1: the series' best work. If you've never seen the series,
Speaker 1: then I'm actually quite jealous, as you've got some serious
Speaker 1: catching up to do, from missing persons to feel good stories.
Speaker 1: The amount of research that has gone into this show
Speaker 1: is remarkable. This one hundred percent puts the real back
Speaker 1: into reality television. Australian Story is an award winning documentary
Speaker 1: series with no narrator, no agenda, just authentic stories told
Speaker 1: entirely in people's own words. Each week, Australia has been
Speaker 1: taking thirty minutes to immerse themselves in the life of
Speaker 1: an extraordinary Australian. They are sometimes high profile, sometimes controversial,
Speaker 1: but always compelling. It's television guaranteed to make you think
Speaker 1: and make you feel. New episodes are available every Monday
Speaker 1: at eight pm Eastern Standard Time on ABCTV. However, let's
Speaker 1: get started with one of Australia's most impressive executive producers.
Speaker 1: It's Caitlin Shae.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people themselves don't really know what their story is.
Speaker 3: Tonight's Australian Stories about a man.
Speaker 2: Can we just have an ordinary person who would present
Speaker 2: the Australian story every week.
Speaker 1: I'm stronger than I ever thought I was.
Speaker 2: I kind of pointed as stories that make you think
Speaker 2: and feel. A Brisbane teenager is in intensive care after
Speaker 2: he was seriously hurt in a high school rugby match.
Speaker 2: I want to tell Indigenous stories. We want to tell
Speaker 2: it stories with more diversity.
Speaker 1: There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that it
Speaker 1: was a positive thing for the environment and also a
Speaker 1: positive thing for people.
Speaker 2: A good story is not about the great pictures or
Speaker 2: the great soundtrack, all the amazing graphics. It's about the story.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: I love talking about Australian Story because I have been
Speaker 2: on the program since the beginning and it's kind.
Speaker 3: Of in my DNA.
Speaker 1: You have worked on Australian Story for twenty five years,
Speaker 1: just celebrating the jubilee, which is quite impressive. My question
Speaker 1: for you is what is your driving passion with investigative journalism?
Speaker 3: Well, Australian Story.
Speaker 2: You know, we've kind of spent a bit of time
Speaker 2: going well, what are we, how do we in the
Speaker 2: mix of programs that the ABC does, Where do we fit?
Speaker 2: And what we've kind of come down to is that
Speaker 2: we tell compelling personal stories that have a sense of
Speaker 2: revelation to them.
Speaker 4: Precious Max was living in long Pin with his girlfriend
Speaker 4: Charlene Savarino, and both of them were part of an
Speaker 4: international drug syndicate who were operating to lure Australian men
Speaker 4: and women to travel to Cambodia to bring drugs back
Speaker 4: into Australia.
Speaker 2: So sometimes they're investigative, but often their profiles it's just
Speaker 2: the full gamut. And I think part of the reason
Speaker 2: I love the program so much is that we take
Speaker 2: this kind of narrationless documentary style and we apply it
Speaker 2: to anything I go. There's nothing that we can't do
Speaker 2: in our narrationless style.
Speaker 1: How did Australian Story come about? What roads led you
Speaker 1: to this incredible body of work well.
Speaker 2: Australian Story came about, I think because the ABC realized
Speaker 2: that it needed to be doing more programming about people
Speaker 2: and particularly in rural and regional areas. And originally when
Speaker 2: the concept was floated, it was called Australian Correspondent and
Speaker 2: it was going to be foreign correspondent but set in Australia,
Speaker 2: So it was going to be largely that personality based
Speaker 2: journalism of the correspondent going in and telling the story.
Speaker 2: And something happened a lot on the line with then
Speaker 2: the executive producer who decided that she wanted less of
Speaker 2: the journalist on camera and more of the characters on camera.
Speaker 2: So some of the original journalists that we had that
Speaker 2: were employed at that stage actually decided that they didn't
Speaker 2: want to be on a program that wasn't featuring them
Speaker 2: so much but was featuring the talent more. So then
Speaker 2: that started this model of narrationless based television where it
Speaker 2: was all about as a producer who was assigned a story,
Speaker 2: your role was to encourage talent i e. The story
Speaker 2: subjects to tell their story in their own words, and
Speaker 2: then we would put that together and create a story.
Speaker 4: Out of that.
Speaker 1: I love the intro It's one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: about it that you've found someone who really truly fits
Speaker 1: the story instead of just an everyday journalist or the
Speaker 1: same journalist on every episode. I think that could be
Speaker 1: quite powerful.
Speaker 3: Do you know I have a little part to play
Speaker 3: in all of that.
Speaker 2: So I was a young twenty something when I first
Speaker 2: joined the program, and I was just really antie this
Speaker 2: whole concept of the all seeing, all knowing presenter who
Speaker 2: sat behind a desk and would present this story to you.
Speaker 2: And this was before the days of reality TV and
Speaker 2: Big Brother, when you know, ordinary people couldn't be on television.
Speaker 2: And I came up with this idea, what about we
Speaker 2: change it every week and we just have an ordinary
Speaker 2: person who would present the Australian story every week.
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Jodi Meers. I'm a fashion designer and big
Speaker 5: time supporter of the young woman you're about to meet,
Speaker 5: Tara Winkler, is the force of nature behind an organization
Speaker 5: that's helping some of the world's most impoverished families in Gambodia.
Speaker 2: So we started that and we found that a lot
Speaker 2: of ordinary people aren't very big television presenters, but we
Speaker 2: have kept with that concept. The whole time in that
Speaker 2: we mix it up every week. You never know who
Speaker 2: you're going to get. Who's going to present Australian story
Speaker 2: this week. It's somebody who's got some kind of connection
Speaker 2: to the subject or to the topic. Because we had
Speaker 2: Caroline Jones who was our sort of semi permanent presenter
Speaker 2: for quite a long time, and she was just a
Speaker 2: legend of Australian television and she really helped us get
Speaker 2: some credibility when we first started twenty five years ago.
Speaker 1: Over a fifty year career.
Speaker 2: Colleagues admired her calmness, dignity and determination to expose injustice
Speaker 2: and wrongdoing.
Speaker 3: So when she.
Speaker 2: Left was really sad because we all love Caroline. But
Speaker 2: we went for a long time who could be this
Speaker 2: next presenter for Australian Story And we haven't been able
Speaker 2: to find anybody who we think can kind of do
Speaker 2: that broad gamut of story presenting from all different topics,
Speaker 2: all different people, and so we just kind of change
Speaker 2: it up every week and ask different people and just
Speaker 2: try and keep that mixed going. And I'm glad that
Speaker 2: you say that you really like it, because it's a
Speaker 2: bit of an effort every week trying to find somebody
Speaker 2: who's going to be a good presenter and somebody who
Speaker 2: has got that connection to the story.
Speaker 1: My favorite parts of a current affair programming is when
Speaker 1: you don't really remember the presenter if they've done their
Speaker 1: job well, they're kind of a little bit invisible.
Speaker 3: I completely agree with you.
Speaker 2: I watch programming now that has that presenter who inserts
Speaker 2: themselves into the shots and the voiceover. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it just irritates me so much that voiceover. You have
Speaker 2: to virtually be like David Attenbrough, or you have to
Speaker 2: bring something so special to it for me to enjoy
Speaker 2: that kind of storytelling. I just love being able to
Speaker 2: work it out for myself. I love just seeing that
Speaker 2: story laid out there and I make those connections rather
Speaker 2: than having somebody making those connections for me in voiceover.
Speaker 2: So I'm the same as you.
Speaker 1: I love the choices that you make when you put
Speaker 1: the shows together. I love your choices of text instead
Speaker 1: of a voiceover.
Speaker 2: If we're doing a complex legal story and we want
Speaker 2: that really neutral voice to deliver some information that doesn't
Speaker 2: seem partisan, then we'll just put that text on screen
Speaker 2: to say, you know, the court found that bloody bloody
Speaker 2: bla and she was sentenced to blidy bloody blah. I
Speaker 2: always feel that's a really good use of captions on screen.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that we've had, i think
Speaker 2: since virtually the beginning is we have what we call
Speaker 2: end captions, so the story finishes and then you just
Speaker 2: get some really pertinent and pivotal information just expressed really
Speaker 2: clearly and cleanly at the end. I think that always
Speaker 2: works really well for us.
Speaker 1: To think about the amount of times where they put
Speaker 1: an over emotional score behind it. Sometimes when it goes
Speaker 1: silent and then you get what's happened in the past
Speaker 1: or something that's happened in the future. That's I think
Speaker 1: it's way more powerful than over complicating it or overproducing
Speaker 1: it and just trying to be too a motive with
Speaker 1: a score.
Speaker 3: Yes, I like what you said before.
Speaker 2: I always see putting together Australian story is having a
Speaker 2: ten thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. But this puzzle hasn't come
Speaker 2: out of a factory, and there's a way to do
Speaker 2: it with a picture on the front. You have to
Speaker 2: create that puzzle yourself with words and pictures and music
Speaker 2: and whatever else, and you have to kind of force
Speaker 2: those pieces to fit. They just aren't perfectly cut, so
Speaker 2: there is a lot of editing that goes on to
Speaker 2: make all those pieces fit together. In fact, we spend
Speaker 2: about four weeks in the edit suite for every thirty
Speaker 2: minute story, which is pretty quick for narrationless television. To
Speaker 2: be honest, you know, those big docos would be in
Speaker 2: the edit sweet firm.
Speaker 3: Months and months.
Speaker 2: It's really difficult. And I think people watch Austragon's story
Speaker 2: and go, well, that was so seamless. That story just
Speaker 2: made sense. It unfolded so beautifully. So much work has
Speaker 2: gone into making it appear that way. You know, people
Speaker 2: don't speak in perfect answers and perfect grabs. Sometimes people
Speaker 2: themselves don't really know what their story is, and it
Speaker 2: sometimes takes us to cut to come along and look
Speaker 2: at it with the big picture, to go, ah, that's
Speaker 2: what the narrative is.
Speaker 5: I was suddenly unsure of everything, of how I'd lived
Speaker 5: my life, for how I'd been with my mother, if
Speaker 5: I'd been enough of a daughter to her.
Speaker 2: It's really really difficult, and I'm actually sort of don't
Speaker 2: know how bosses at the ABC understand how difficult it
Speaker 2: is to create this narrationless television in this really short
Speaker 2: amount of time.
Speaker 1: I'd love to call you after every episode and then
Speaker 1: for you to tell me all of the things that
Speaker 1: went wrong.
Speaker 3: You wouldn't believe what happened. Oh my god, we didn't
Speaker 3: think we were going to get it to air.
Speaker 2: It's always like that. There's always some drama every single story.
Speaker 1: How has Australian story evolved over the years, do you think,
Speaker 1: because twenty five years of storytelling is phenomenal.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: When I started, everything was shot on tapes, so we
Speaker 2: had digib to CAM I think it was, and these
Speaker 2: tapes were expensive, so you didn't go overshooting. And when
Speaker 2: I started, you do an interview and you had to
Speaker 2: transcribe your own interview yourself. We had these basic linear
Speaker 2: edit suites, so your script had to be perfect. I've
Speaker 2: seen so much technology change in that time, and I
Speaker 2: think the big step forward in evolution for us was
Speaker 2: when we moved to nonlinear edit systems, so that suddenly
Speaker 2: we could put it all out there and go that
Speaker 2: bit in the middle should be at the start, that's
Speaker 2: the vision that should be there. But in the olden
Speaker 2: days when I started, like for the first few years,
Speaker 2: I think if you go back and look at our
Speaker 2: stories from twenty five years ago.
Speaker 3: Some of them.
Speaker 2: Aren't that great, some of them don't quite make sense
Speaker 2: because we were editing in this very linear way. So
Speaker 2: I think that that's probably where we've evolved the most,
Speaker 2: is that our ability to edit and get clarity and
Speaker 2: you know, push the story for drama. I just think
Speaker 2: our storytelling has got better over the last twenty five years.
Speaker 2: And I think too, maybe some of our visual filmmaking
Speaker 2: was a little bit cliched and corny in the past.
Speaker 2: I think we've got better.
Speaker 3: At that too.
Speaker 1: Was there ever a time where you thought, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this whole thing differently? I remember reading your
Speaker 1: fear that you thought the show could end up being
Speaker 1: like an old, comfortable pair of slippers. So I imagine
Speaker 1: that there has been some reinventing along the way to
Speaker 1: keep it fresh for the audience.
Speaker 2: I know that as a producer, as I got to
Speaker 2: understand how to really script well, because that was.
Speaker 3: Probably a little dodgy at the start that I.
Speaker 2: Went every story I do, I have to challenge myself
Speaker 2: and I have to do something different. If I'm not
Speaker 2: doing something different with every single story, then I'm not
Speaker 2: learning I'm not growing, the format's not growing.
Speaker 1: There is a pressure sometimes to try and change something
Speaker 1: that is working perfectly, and I guess that's sort of
Speaker 1: the essence of that question is do you feel that
Speaker 1: pressure and has there been a point where you've just
Speaker 1: flipped it on its head?
Speaker 3: Well, very interesting.
Speaker 2: After Caroline Jones, our founding presenter, left, we experimented with
Speaker 2: not having a presenter at all, so the theme tune
Speaker 2: was on and then bang, it went straight into the
Speaker 2: story and it didn't work at all.
Speaker 3: And I thought at the time it didn't work because we.
Speaker 2: Were having to front load that introduction to what the
Speaker 2: story was, the who, what, when, where, and why we
Speaker 2: were having to front load at all, And I think
Speaker 2: that was part of the reason why it didn't work.
Speaker 2: But I think another reason why it didn't work was
Speaker 2: that that presenter is that time that people sit and
Speaker 2: relax and that they are gently introduced to what this
Speaker 2: story is going to be about. It's like a warm welcome.
Speaker 2: And that's what somebody said to me, that they're now
Speaker 2: missing that warm welcome to Australian's story. So that was
Speaker 2: a time we experimented and it didn't work, and we
Speaker 2: realized pretty quickly within you know, maybe six months or
Speaker 2: so that that wasn't working, and then we just sort
Speaker 2: of we actually brought back the presenter just as a
Speaker 2: sort of one time only thing. Everybody went, oh, thank god,
Speaker 2: you've got the presenter back, and we've just kept it
Speaker 2: going ever since. So we have tried some experimenting. I
Speaker 2: just think that for me, we just keep pushing it
Speaker 2: in terms of the stories that we want to tell
Speaker 2: the complexity of those stories that we want to tell,
Speaker 2: that we never get fall back into cliche. That we
Speaker 2: always get as much clarity as we can in terms
Speaker 2: of our stories. Because in the olden days, what will
Speaker 2: we competing with? These days, we are competing with those
Speaker 2: fantastic docos on Netflix. That's what we're being compared to.
Speaker 2: Our little old program.
Speaker 3: Is being compared to that.
Speaker 2: So the bar is so high these days, and you know,
Speaker 2: we're just you know, really really trying hard. On our
Speaker 2: very limited budget and with our very limited resources. We're
Speaker 2: just doing the best that we possibly can.
Speaker 1: You know, I think Australian story is twenty years ahead
Speaker 1: of the true crime phenomenon. The way that you unpack
Speaker 1: your stories draw people in to offer you some context.
Speaker 1: If you're flicking the channel and you come across a
Speaker 1: strand story you just can't turn away. Can you see
Speaker 1: the parallel between true crime and the way Australian story
Speaker 1: has always been told?
Speaker 2: Well, we really saw the power of true crime that
Speaker 2: our founding EP, Deborah Fleming, who was a legend, she
Speaker 2: saw the power of true crime really really early on.
Speaker 2: So if you were to go back through our archive,
Speaker 2: you would see, oh my god, they were doing those
Speaker 2: stories way back then and doing them well. So that
Speaker 2: is certainly one of the staples in our repertoire. We
Speaker 2: know that the audience enjoys that true crime genre, and.
Speaker 3: I do agree with you.
Speaker 2: We have that sense of when we're structuring a story
Speaker 2: that you have to tease it at the start, you
Speaker 2: have to lure people in. You don't give too much
Speaker 2: away there's some question that's not being answered here. We
Speaker 2: really structure those stories very keenly around those sorts of,
Speaker 2: as you say, true crime storytelling principles. But then that
Speaker 2: applies to one of the big successes of our program
Speaker 2: has been when we step into that little celebrity space
Speaker 2: and that profile space that's always been you know, one
Speaker 2: of the fundamental things that we've done to and the
Speaker 2: audience really really enjoys that. Another thing that we're very
Speaker 2: very aware of is that our audience loves nostalgia. Everybody
Speaker 2: loves tripping down memory lane and going, oh, I remember
Speaker 2: that from when I was a child. It sparks so
Speaker 2: many emotions in us. And you know, I'm not ashamed
Speaker 2: of the fact that Australian Story I kind of coined
Speaker 2: as stories that make you think and feel, and I'm
Speaker 2: not ashamed of the fact that we want you to
Speaker 2: feel something when you watch Australian Story. We don't want
Speaker 2: you to have the tissues out every week. That's not
Speaker 2: our intention at all, but we do want you to
Speaker 2: feel something.
Speaker 1: And that's the surprise I think, you know, with changing
Speaker 1: around from politics to an unlikely friendship story or a
Speaker 1: celebrity story. You know, there's just such a tapestry there
Speaker 1: that allows us as a viewer to have so many
Speaker 1: different types of emotions, which I think is the magic
Speaker 1: behind this program. What story was your favorite and why
Speaker 1: was that your favorite?
Speaker 2: There's so many stories and for me, some of my
Speaker 2: favorite stories are those stories that I had the most
Speaker 2: fun on as a producer. You know, part of the
Speaker 2: joy of working on this program is working in a team.
Speaker 2: And I had so much fun filming that story or
Speaker 2: the talent were just so great to hang out with.
Speaker 2: I guess I have a few key ones in my career.
Speaker 2: There was one about a quadriplegic farmer, and he and
Speaker 2: I are still friends and he calls me from time
Speaker 2: to time. But there are so many stories that I
Speaker 2: admire from what other producers.
Speaker 3: Have done too.
Speaker 2: So I can tell you which stories the audience liked
Speaker 2: was the story of and it still has brought up
Speaker 2: to me all the time. Gale and mac Shan, the
Speaker 2: young couple, lived on a farm. She was involved in
Speaker 2: a terrible accident where her arm was ripped off by
Speaker 2: a posthol digit was terrible.
Speaker 6: When the doctors told us that the left arm was
Speaker 6: paralyzed and to their knowledge, your repairable. We were terrified
Speaker 6: of telling Gail because we thought she might not want
Speaker 6: to go on.
Speaker 2: But her tenacity through it all, their love story through
Speaker 2: it all. Our audience just loves that one. I think
Speaker 2: Gayl and macshan have got a bit sick of us
Speaker 2: coming to them all the time saying can we please
Speaker 2: update your story, because that's a big thing about what
Speaker 2: we do too.
Speaker 1: I often watch a strain and story and I think, oh,
Speaker 1: that didn't give me everything I needed. They're going to
Speaker 1: revisit this, and I'm going to look forward to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, And it's not that you haven't tidy
Speaker 1: the story off properly at the time. It has evolved
Speaker 1: and has been brilliant, but you can't help it sometimes
Speaker 1: wonder where's this going to go? That must be so
Speaker 1: amazing to know that your viewers want to know more.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we came up with the update idea
Speaker 2: simply because if you're doing an update, it's recycling. You
Speaker 2: can take twenty minutes of that thirty minute program, you
Speaker 2: can take that chunk, you can use that chunk, you
Speaker 2: put a bit of new stuff at the top, a
Speaker 2: bit of new stuff at the end, and you've got
Speaker 2: a whole new program. So for us, that saved money,
Speaker 2: that saved time, and the audience loved it because they'd
Speaker 2: already got to know these characters. So finding out the
Speaker 2: what happened next was we were just always surprised that
Speaker 2: people didn't go, oh my god, you guys just had
Speaker 2: a black hole to fill in three weeks and there
Speaker 2: was nothing available, so you decided to update that story.
Speaker 3: People.
Speaker 2: Actually, there's some of our best rating programs. People really
Speaker 2: really enjoy it, and they will always be a fundamental
Speaker 2: part of what we do because we often do need
Speaker 2: to fill a black hole in the production schedule very quickly,
Speaker 2: but also because the.
Speaker 3: Audience loves it.
Speaker 1: And you know why I think the audience loves it
Speaker 1: as well, is because they love to go, they love
Speaker 1: to feel a part of it. And then when they
Speaker 1: see it start, they go, oh, I remember this, and
Speaker 1: they turned to the goggle box with their partner and
Speaker 1: they say, oh, I remember this such and such happened
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And then when you recut it and
Speaker 1: retell that on screen, they turn around and say to
Speaker 1: their partner or whoever they're watching it with c And
Speaker 1: that is an inclusion of the viewer, and I think
Speaker 1: that that's sometimes some of the best television.
Speaker 3: That's really interesting that you say that.
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in exploring that concept of inclusion of
Speaker 2: the viewer because I'm not there sitting watching viewers when
Speaker 2: they watch a straighten the story. And I'd love to
Speaker 2: be because I've watched these things so many times, like
Speaker 2: sometimes I've watched them fifteen times before they go to air,
Speaker 2: and I watch it on a Monday morning the final version.
Speaker 2: We've put the soupers on, the opening titles are on,
Speaker 2: the end credits are on, and to be honest, I
Speaker 2: can watch it and go, oh my god, the audience
Speaker 2: is going to be so bored with this one, and
Speaker 2: that's because I've seen it so many times. So I
Speaker 2: would love to actually watch a story with our viewers
Speaker 2: and just watch their reactions and go, did they laugh
Speaker 2: in the right spot where they sat and the right squash?
Speaker 3: You know, I think that that's a really interesting concept.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you know how the story is
Speaker 1: going to go and how the show is going to
Speaker 1: perform with an audience once it's in the camp.
Speaker 2: Mostly I think I'm pretty good at picking it mostly,
Speaker 2: but sometimes it really surprises me and I'm like, Wow,
Speaker 2: that one did well.
Speaker 3: Or jeez, I would have thought that one would have
Speaker 3: done better.
Speaker 2: But then you know, you're also up against things on
Speaker 2: the commercials, and if they're having the final of Maths
Speaker 2: or something like that, you're just not going to have
Speaker 2: a huge audience that night. Sadly, twenty twenty one, the
Speaker 2: ratings for Free to Wear have fallen a fair bit
Speaker 2: this past six months for some reason. When we started
Speaker 2: at the start this year, the ratings haven't been so great,
Speaker 2: But we still have a really loyal, dedicated audience and
Speaker 2: I'm just so grateful to every single person who still
Speaker 2: watches the Australian Story.
Speaker 1: How do the stories arrive and how do they get born?
Speaker 1: Because I'm assuming that there's a team of people that
Speaker 1: sit there and pitch ideas, and I'm assuming that you've
Speaker 1: always got your ear to the ground. What is that process?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: How do the stories arrive and how do they get born?
Speaker 2: I always talk about my antenna for a story is
Speaker 2: up constantly, you know, it's always up everything I read
Speaker 2: and look out and I go, could that be an
Speaker 2: a strating story? Is that where we should be going
Speaker 2: with the program? But everybody on the program, there's probably
Speaker 2: about twenty of us, we're all like that. We're all
Speaker 2: looking around for stories constantly. We read a lot, we
Speaker 2: listen to a lot, So everybody's pitching stories all the time.
Speaker 2: And we have a team of people, a research team
Speaker 2: that we get together every fortnight or so. Sometimes meetings
Speaker 2: can go for a couple of hours where we just
Speaker 2: you know, pitch things and we discuss the project progress
Speaker 2: on this particular story, constantly going what are.
Speaker 3: The best stories?
Speaker 2: You know, we only have thirty five stories a year.
Speaker 2: What are the best stories that we can tell out
Speaker 2: of those thirty five? But you know, we have a
Speaker 2: lot of strategy goals that the ABC wants us to
Speaker 2: kick too, and that we want to kick. So we
Speaker 2: want to tell indigenous stories, We want to tell stories
Speaker 2: with more diversity. We want to tell stories that are
Speaker 2: out and the rural and remote areas as well, so
Speaker 2: we factor that into the mix.
Speaker 3: We get pitched a lot. We don't really get.
Speaker 2: As many stories through our story inbox as we used to,
Speaker 2: where some of our best stories came from just members
Speaker 2: of the public kind of coming to our inbox.
Speaker 3: We just don't get as many as we used to.
Speaker 2: And I'm kind of wondering how do we connect with
Speaker 2: our audience a little bit more so that we can
Speaker 2: get those stories from them.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, just open to all ideas.
Speaker 2: I get a lot of emails from PR people, but
Speaker 2: they generally don't ever get commissioned those sorts of ones.
Speaker 1: What kind of approval process is there to get the
Speaker 1: concept lit? Like you yourself is the executive producer, you
Speaker 1: would have a lot of handle on that. But do
Speaker 1: you have to then take it through to the heads
Speaker 1: of the ABC for them to look at it before
Speaker 1: it goes ahead.
Speaker 2: No, No, I've never done that, to.
Speaker 3: Be honest, I want your job, And look, my bosses.
Speaker 2: Are amazing in that they just completely leave us alone.
Speaker 3: We just kind of been doing our own thing, and
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 2: We're not causing anybody any great headaches fingers cross touch
Speaker 2: wood that they need to intervene.
Speaker 3: They really do leave us alone to make our own
Speaker 3: story judgments. I know that I am not the be
Speaker 3: all and.
Speaker 2: End all with respect to story judgment and needs to
Speaker 2: be a team of people making those decisions. I ultimately
Speaker 2: have the final say, But if it was just all
Speaker 2: about the stories that Caitlin liked, you know, it'd probably
Speaker 2: be seventy five percent.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: There are different people on the team who think differently
Speaker 2: to me. My supervising producer, Rebecca Latham. She and I
Speaker 2: were a very very close team. I always say that
Speaker 2: I'm kind of more instinct and emotion and she's more
Speaker 2: intellect so she pictures very different stories to me. So
Speaker 2: I feel that we really balance each other really really well.
Speaker 2: And so it is very much a group effort about,
Speaker 2: you know, finding that mix of stories.
Speaker 1: And you must be very proud and you should be
Speaker 1: very proud of a collaborative team. I think it's when
Speaker 1: people manage or you know, are in total control and
Speaker 1: they won't let other people's ideas penetrate them, that's when
Speaker 1: it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: I am really proud of our team. We have an
Speaker 2: amazing team. We're all working together towards a common goal,
Speaker 2: which is to make this program the best that it
Speaker 2: can be, to tell the best stories.
Speaker 3: So, you know, there's little.
Speaker 2: Bits of you know, difficulty along the way. Sometimes they
Speaker 2: say I'm a bit of a control freak and I'm
Speaker 2: changing things too much. But even then I had somebody
Speaker 2: who actually ring me up me I had changed his
Speaker 2: story a bit, and he rang me up and said,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: You were right.
Speaker 2: The story is better for your changes. So what a
Speaker 2: fantastic team that we can all speak so honestly together.
Speaker 2: We speak really candidly, really directly. We've all been working
Speaker 2: together for so long.
Speaker 3: You know, there are a.
Speaker 2: Group of people in this program who have been working
Speaker 2: together for about.
Speaker 3: Twenty years or so and we keep getting you know,
Speaker 3: fresh all the time.
Speaker 2: But no one wants to leave either because it is
Speaker 2: it's probably one of the best things in television, to
Speaker 2: be honest, where you get complete control over telling the
Speaker 2: story about someone that you genuinely probably respect, you know.
Speaker 2: That's most of us stories that we tell. So now, look,
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of our team. It is all a
Speaker 2: team effort. Not one person could do this, it's just many,
Speaker 2: many people involved.
Speaker 1: What's their total time that it takes to make an
Speaker 1: episode from the point.
Speaker 2: That it's commissioned. We say to our producers, there's one
Speaker 2: producer and the formula. The pattern is, you have ten
Speaker 2: weeks to now get this story on air. There might
Speaker 2: be a brief fare, but they might need to do
Speaker 2: a fair bit more research. They have to lock in
Speaker 2: the talent, they have to do the shooting schedules, they
Speaker 2: have to organize the crew, they have to arrange the archive.
Speaker 2: Then they go out and they film all the interviews.
Speaker 2: Then they have to direct with the camera person all
Speaker 2: the sequences. Then they have to come back and they
Speaker 2: have to to look at all the material, theft to
Speaker 2: write the score. Then they go into the edit suite,
Speaker 2: it's actually crazy what we're asking producers to do these days,
Speaker 2: and I know that a lot of them are very,
Speaker 2: very stressed about it all. And as technology becomes more
Speaker 2: and more complex, you'd think our job would be getting easier,
Speaker 2: but it's actually getting harder because of the technology.
Speaker 3: So it's incredible. You know, there's not.
Speaker 2: Too many people who would produce thirty minutes of narrationless
Speaker 2: television at the high standard that we produce it at
Speaker 2: in a ten week production cycle, all by themselves independently.
Speaker 1: I've just watched a documentary series which is going to
Speaker 1: be seen on a global scale, made by some of
Speaker 1: the best storytellers in the world, and at the same
Speaker 1: time researching Australian story and I was blown away by
Speaker 1: the standard. The standard is so high, and every episode
Speaker 1: being churned out is in the same league as something
Speaker 1: that everybody's watching around the world. Like that's phenomenal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for that, thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can hold our heads high. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I look at those fantastic docos on the street services
Speaker 2: with those amazing graphics and whatever, but you know, ultimately,
Speaker 2: a good story is not about the great pictures or
Speaker 2: the great soundtrack or the amazing graphics. It's about the story,
Speaker 2: and it's about will this last and does it sustain me?
Speaker 2: And are the characters interesting enough? So sometimes no, I
Speaker 2: don't think we look as slick as what some of
Speaker 2: those fantastic docos look like. But I think our storytelling
Speaker 2: skills are really really strong.
Speaker 1: Sometimes just the simple narrative can do the job.
Speaker 2: You know, I think narrative is so powerful, really really powerful,
Speaker 2: And those twists and turns and the sort.
Speaker 3: Of surprising stuff.
Speaker 2: I think that that's for me, what makes a really
Speaker 2: good story.
Speaker 1: How do the contributors usually respond to the finished product?
Speaker 1: Because people are putting themselves out on the line to
Speaker 1: be open, to be honest, to tell sometimes they're appalling
Speaker 1: truth or someone else's appalling truth. I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure on these people. Do people try and
Speaker 1: control certain narratives? Do they call you in the product
Speaker 1: and say can you change this? And then once it's
Speaker 1: gone to air, do you have an open line of
Speaker 1: dialogue to those people?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, I actually take this really really seriously. So
Speaker 2: you know, there are sometimes that you call them contributors.
Speaker 2: I call them talent because that's just what I've been
Speaker 2: calling them for twenty five years, where you know it's
Speaker 2: a precious thing, your story, and you're handing it over
Speaker 2: to a complete stranger to tell that story, and there's
Speaker 2: a level of trust involved, and why would you trust
Speaker 2: that person because there are strangers, so we'd have to
Speaker 2: do this speed bonding with people. And you know, sometimes,
Speaker 2: particularly if people have suffered a lot of trauma in
Speaker 2: their lives, it's hard to trust somebody. So I have
Speaker 2: got involved just in a very few odd stories in
Speaker 2: the last three and a half years that i've been
Speaker 2: EP where I've come on board and maybe I've then
Speaker 2: taken over the communication with the talent, and generally things
Speaker 2: have resolved really well. There's only one story I can
Speaker 2: think of where the person wasn't happy. I really worked
Speaker 2: hard with that person to make that person happy and
Speaker 2: to try and you know, make amends or you know,
Speaker 2: explain stuff. The rest of the time, it just hasn't
Speaker 2: come across that people are unhappy. And generally I get
Speaker 2: CCT on an email that someone is really happy, they're
Speaker 2: very thankful. We've honored them, we've respected them, We've been fair,
Speaker 2: we've been reasonable, we've been balanced, we've been all of
Speaker 2: those sorts of things, and that's really really heartening.
Speaker 1: Have you ever found that someone's lied? What do you
Speaker 1: do when you've put someone to camera and then you've
Speaker 1: found out that what they've said isn't true.
Speaker 2: I can only think personally where that happened to me once.
Speaker 2: And we can't let anything go to air that we
Speaker 2: know isn't true. So I don't think we've put anything
Speaker 2: to air that's been untruthful.
Speaker 3: We've either clocked on pretty.
Speaker 2: Early in the piece that when we were out there
Speaker 2: filming that things weren't stacking up, and we haven't continued
Speaker 2: with the story.
Speaker 3: We've gone in this particular.
Speaker 2: Case gone things are quite stacking up, but it seems
Speaker 2: to be this is the reason, and that can be
Speaker 2: a theme of the story. And as long as we
Speaker 2: get another voice in that story that tells the truth,
Speaker 2: we can then editorially justify that. But that was a
Speaker 2: long time ago, and to be honest, I don't think
Speaker 2: it would get through our rigorous processes if somebody was
Speaker 2: lying to us, and I don't think we would continue
Speaker 2: with that story because I would see that as a
Speaker 2: breach of.
Speaker 3: Trust on their part.
Speaker 1: Can you remember if there was ever a time, I mean,
Speaker 1: you definitely remember this if this happened. But did you
Speaker 1: have a complete story that was never run?
Speaker 3: Yeah, a couple of times.
Speaker 2: It's a bit sad when it happens because a lot
Speaker 2: of effort has gone into that story. It's always very sad.
Speaker 3: Actually.
Speaker 2: I think one time it happened because this is before
Speaker 2: my time, someone didn't check out and we realized someone
Speaker 2: checked it didn't check out, so we didn't ever run that.
Speaker 2: There's been plenty of stories that we've started and haven't
Speaker 2: continued with because things haven't haven't checked out.
Speaker 1: How do they respond to being told that the story's
Speaker 1: been dropped?
Speaker 2: I just really try and be open and honest and
Speaker 2: explain it to them and say, look, this stage, it's
Speaker 2: not quite strong enough to go the full distance of
Speaker 2: thirty minutes, but we'll see what we can do.
Speaker 3: Down the track.
Speaker 2: You know, we'll keep the door open. If something changes
Speaker 2: in your life through a few more chapters to the story,
Speaker 2: you know, give us a call. That sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: I can imagine it'd be a bit of a process
Speaker 1: for them. Looking at you more specifically, do you see
Speaker 1: yourself continuing with this show? You know, for the rest
Speaker 1: of your career? I mean, there are other things bubbling
Speaker 1: behind the scenes that you'd want to do as an
Speaker 1: addition to your work as an executive producer on Australian Story,
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 2: Love to do one of those big six hour documentary
Speaker 2: series on something really big.
Speaker 3: You know, For me personally, I would.
Speaker 2: Love that because if you're doing six hours on something,
Speaker 2: it means it's a fantastic story. So and I guess
Speaker 2: as a journalist, I'm all about the story.
Speaker 3: So look, I'm really open to that.
Speaker 2: But I also I still feel vibed by what I
Speaker 2: do after all this time, and I'm still ambitious about
Speaker 2: Australian Story. I'm going let's do a three part let's
Speaker 2: do a full partut come on, guys, let's find that
Speaker 2: story that could be a four part or on Australian Story.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, anything can happen. It would take It
Speaker 2: would take a lot for me to leave Australian Story,
Speaker 2: It really would because I do love it so much.
Speaker 1: I really hope that you do the six part series
Speaker 1: because from everything I've watched in and as an audience,
Speaker 1: I've just seen some amazing skill sets being put to
Speaker 1: amazing use.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I do wonder this skill I have to take
Speaker 2: this word and this phrase and you know, put words together.
Speaker 3: I go, oh, my gosh, what sort.
Speaker 2: Of skill is this being able to sort of, you know,
Speaker 2: use people's words and interviews in this kind of jigsaw
Speaker 2: kind of way.
Speaker 3: But no, it is.
Speaker 2: It's like an big puzzle, and I do enjoy that
Speaker 2: complexity of that puzzle.
Speaker 1: So if they pick up the phone and ask you
Speaker 1: to do a series of Married at First Sight, you know,
Speaker 1: how does that phone call go.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be a good fit with Married
Speaker 2: at First Sight, to be honest, I don't think I would.
Speaker 2: I think i'd you know. I think what I love
Speaker 2: about Australian story is that our stories are meaningful and
Speaker 2: that they have substance and all of that sort of
Speaker 2: thing real and genuine people. That said, I don't mind
Speaker 2: a bit of Married at First Sight, I don't mind
Speaker 2: a bit of reality television.
Speaker 3: I've got two teenage daughters and we.
Speaker 2: Do quite like looking at the Bachelor and Bachelorette for.
Speaker 3: Five of the time.
Speaker 1: I would love to see you do a reality show,
Speaker 1: is what I'm getting at, just because I would love
Speaker 1: to see more integrity, because I think that we've gone
Speaker 1: in a certain direction with reality television where we are
Speaker 1: watching it and it's sensational. So I think that there
Speaker 1: would still be an audience for a strip back reality
Speaker 1: show where you're showing people more honestly.
Speaker 2: You know, that's really interesting because it is just all
Speaker 2: about conflict these days, isn't it, and that generating conflict.
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like to.
Speaker 3: Meal TV with integrity. That's a really interesting concept. You
Speaker 3: should pitch something.
Speaker 1: The human experiment only works when you see the way
Speaker 1: in which people make themselves a cup of coffee, you know,
Speaker 1: or what their routine is when they go to bed.
Speaker 1: They're the moments that are now not even seen on
Speaker 1: reality shows. But I think that that was something of
Speaker 1: the magic that was there right at the start that's
Speaker 1: kind of gone away because people are impatient to tell
Speaker 1: stories faster.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: There's something in the reward of telling something in long
Speaker 1: form for the audience who does stick in the program
Speaker 1: to be rewarded with the bigger picture.
Speaker 2: But I've got teenage daughters who, particularly my younger one,
Speaker 2: doesn't have a particularly long attention span.
Speaker 3: What does it mean for the future.
Speaker 2: Of long form when these generations who are coming up
Speaker 2: they're bred on TikTok and that sort of thing, and
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with that content. There's some great content there,
Speaker 2: but the attention Seystan is social. Will they be interested
Speaker 2: in long form in the future, Will they be interested.
Speaker 3: In a deep dive?
Speaker 1: Sadly, I don't think so. I think you short shart
Speaker 1: pieces of information is the way forward, and people are
Speaker 1: getting so much of their content very quickly. It's so
Speaker 1: accessible these days. And also people being able to be
Speaker 1: their own content is also something that takes away from
Speaker 1: long form. You yourself can be on TikTok. Everybody can
Speaker 1: be now, so we can all be our own stuff.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
Speaker 2: We were the curators of people's stories before, but now
Speaker 2: they can curate their own personal story.
Speaker 3: They don't need us. And I do think about these.
Speaker 2: Issues and what this means for the future of Australian's story.
Speaker 3: I'm still hopeful.
Speaker 2: I'm still really hopeful that the big picture fundamentals are
Speaker 2: still there, that people still are interested in the lives
Speaker 2: of other people, and they're interested in the shades of gray,
Speaker 2: and they're maybe interested in somebody else kind of looking
Speaker 2: at this person in a more objective way than maybe
Speaker 2: that person can look at themselves.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's just wishful thinking.
Speaker 3: I really don't know.
Speaker 1: One question I always ask my guests before they go
Speaker 1: is what is an amazing story from behind the scenes
Speaker 1: that we as an audience would appreciate. Something that happened
Speaker 1: behind the scenes over the many years that might be
Speaker 1: funny or interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think people have left their radio mics on
Speaker 2: while they've gone to the bathroom. I remember talking to
Speaker 2: a traumatized sound reporters once who'd had to listen to
Speaker 2: somebody going to look to the bathroom. That was not pleasant.
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: able to join me today and unpack Australian story because
Speaker 1: it is compelling viewing. It is something that has been
Speaker 1: on our screens for so long for a reason, and
Speaker 1: I hope you continue to enjoy making the show as
Speaker 1: much as we are there watching it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you so much. And I just a
Speaker 3: big thank you to all those people.
Speaker 2: Who still tune in every Monday night to watch. We're
Speaker 2: really really appreciative.
Speaker 3: And you know, even though we.
Speaker 2: Don't know these people, they're always at the front of
Speaker 2: our mind.
Speaker 3: What's that audience thinking. So yeah, thank you very much
Speaker 3: for having me,