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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, Hello, Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the Happy Family's podcast. This is doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson continuing our conversation from yesterday with Associate Professor Katie

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Speaker 1: Davis from the University of Washington Information School. If you

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Speaker 1: missed yesterday's conversation, please go back and have listen to

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Speaker 1: that before you listen to today's discussion, because what today

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Speaker 1: is a continuation of what we were talking about. Katie,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to kick off today's continued conversation by hitting

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Speaker 1: you with a lightning rounde straight up? Can we get

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Speaker 1: your brain going really fast?

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Speaker 2: Sure, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: So a lightning round one or two word or one

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Speaker 1: or two sentence answers. We're going to move really really quickly.

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Speaker 1: What was your favorite TV show when you were young?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I guess The Full House. That's neating me.

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Speaker 1: And I was about to say I used to watch

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Speaker 1: that too, which is terribly for me to date myself.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever not be the calm psychology mom, the

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Speaker 1: screen expert? Do you ever not be the calm mom

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Speaker 1: when it comes to you and your one son?

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Speaker 2: Six?

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Speaker 1: Year old Oliver.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, So it's just Oliver and me at home

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Speaker 2: and so and I have a pretty demanding job, so

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Speaker 2: I am often extremely tired. And you know, sometimes I'm

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Speaker 2: trying as much as I can to make sure that

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Speaker 2: he's engaging with technology and all the ways that I

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Speaker 2: know are supportive of his development. But sometimes I'm exhausted,

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Speaker 2: or sometimes he's exhausted, and it's just okay to sit

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Speaker 2: in front of the TV and veg out a little bit,

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Speaker 2: especially when one or both of us is sick. Then

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Speaker 2: all bets are off and screen time is unlimited.

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Speaker 1: Even though he is the son of an associate professor

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Speaker 1: of psychology who knows this stuff inside and out and

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Speaker 1: has written the book, does he ever just lose and say,

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Speaker 1: but I just want my screen I don't care about

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Speaker 1: the psychological theory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really funny how he's he He doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to really believe that I know what I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: when I say, you know, it's time to turn it off,

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Speaker 2: or especially what he really hates is when he complains

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Speaker 2: that he's bored and I say, you know what, boredom

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Speaker 2: is great, that's the way you develop your ability to

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Speaker 2: regulate your emotions and figure out what you're going to

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Speaker 2: do next, You're going to You're developing all sorts of

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Speaker 2: resilience that way, and he's very unimpressed by that.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine, what is the biggest screen challenge that

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Speaker 1: you have as an expert in technology use across the lifespan?

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Speaker 2: Right now, with my six year old, it's pretty much time.

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Speaker 2: I think he's really obsessed with Pokemon right now, and

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Speaker 2: all of his friends are equally obsessed. And I allow

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Speaker 2: him to watch two Pokemon episodes a day, and he

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Speaker 2: really struggles to get me to increase that as much

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Speaker 2: as possible. And this is every day, so even though

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Speaker 2: I don't budge on it every day, it's a bit

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Speaker 2: of a fight and it can get exhausting. But we

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Speaker 2: have a role in the house where he can watch

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Speaker 2: two Pokemon and then he watches two programs in German

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Speaker 2: because we just moved back from living for four years

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Speaker 2: in Germany and I want him to keep up his

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Speaker 2: German speaking, so he has to divide his screen time

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Speaker 2: between English and German.

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Speaker 1: We have a nine year old daughter who is excessively

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Speaker 1: engaged with screens and especially Pokemon, and we've ended up.

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Speaker 1: We've actually set the parental lock on the television so

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Speaker 1: it switches off after an hour, because otherwise just it's

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Speaker 1: amazing when we step in and say that's enough, it's

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Speaker 1: time to switch it off, or end of the episode,

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Speaker 1: you've got eight minutes to go, we have these huge tantrums.

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Speaker 1: But when the TV switches itself off because the screen

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Speaker 1: time is up, she just sort of gets up off

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Speaker 1: a couch.

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Speaker 2: And oh, it's amazing. Yeah, no, it's incredible. Some of

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Speaker 2: my colleagues at the University of Washington wrote a paper

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Speaker 2: where they they found that tantrums in the house substantially

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Speaker 2: decrease when Alexa intervenes. So instead of a parent saying

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Speaker 2: it's time to turn off the TV or turn off

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Speaker 2: your tablet, if Alexa says time is up, or some

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Speaker 2: other conversational agent, then the kids all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: say okay, Alexa says, so, so I'll turn it off.

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Speaker 2: It's really a little bit disconsidering.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they intuitively know that Alexa is not going to budge,

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Speaker 1: whereas parents maut, that's right. I want to switch that

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Speaker 1: question up, and now I'll ask you what's your biggest

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Speaker 1: screen challenge for you? As an adult, as an expert

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Speaker 1: in the lifespan development and technology use.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm so glad you asked that, because that's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Adults are struggling just as much as kids, and our

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Speaker 2: kids are seeing us struggle, and I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of opportunity there to own our struggles and not

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Speaker 2: just sort of, you know, become embarrassed and put them aside,

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Speaker 2: but lean into them and share these struggles with our kids.

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Speaker 2: So with me, I definitely struggle. You know, I'm a

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Speaker 2: bit of a workaholic, so I'm always checking my email

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Speaker 2: and I have this compulsion to respond to emails quite quickly,

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Speaker 2: and whether it's on my phone or my computer, and

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Speaker 2: Oliver certainly calls me on that if we're playing Pokemon,

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Speaker 2: which I admit I'm not always super engaged with, so

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Speaker 2: I find my eyes wandering to my phone a lot.

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Speaker 2: But when I do, I try to catch myself and

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Speaker 2: call attention and say, oh, you know what, Oliver, these

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Speaker 2: phones are designed to really hook us and it can

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Speaker 2: actually come develop into a good teachable moment, especially as

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Speaker 2: he gets older. So with a lot of my research

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Speaker 2: focuses on older tweens and teens, and as their thinking

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Speaker 2: gets more sophisticated. They're able to really understand how you know,

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Speaker 2: if you talk to them about how these devices and

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Speaker 2: applications are specifically designed to hold our attention, that can

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Speaker 2: be a really fruitful conversation because then it's not all

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Speaker 2: on us. It's not just we are weak because we

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Speaker 2: are succumbing to these social media apps or the phone notifications,

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Speaker 2: but actually, you know what, they're designed specifically for that purpose.

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Speaker 2: So those kinds of conversations I really encourage parents to

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Speaker 2: engage their kids around.

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Speaker 1: I love everything that you've shared there about that. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for that offering. When I look at the impact

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Speaker 1: that technology has on our children, our adolescents, and even

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Speaker 1: on us, I think it's hard to make an argument

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Speaker 1: that the impact isn't becoming increasingly concerning over time as

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Speaker 1: technology becomes increasingly pervasive and integrated into our lives. I'd

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Speaker 1: like to spend the last part of our conversation talking

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Speaker 1: about two areas that this is particularly the case, mainly

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Speaker 1: for adolescents, although younger children are involved as well. Those

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Speaker 1: two areas are gaming and social media. So if I

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Speaker 1: can start with something, I am going to read you

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Speaker 1: to you for just a second if I can from

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Speaker 1: your book Technology's Child, You've said interactivity, low cost of failure,

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Speaker 1: clear and immediate feedback, an optimal balance between challenge and frustration,

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Speaker 1: and social interaction. These are the things that video games

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Speaker 1: can offer children. When I read that, it reminded me

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Speaker 1: so much of everything that's in mid new book, The

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Speaker 1: Pairing Revolution about children and their basic psychological needs. That's

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Speaker 1: a really dense sentence that I read, with many many

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Speaker 1: parts to it. Can you explain from all of your

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Speaker 1: research what you're really seeing happen when kids are engaging

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Speaker 1: with games online and how that's affecting their psychology?

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Speaker 2: Right, So, all of those qualities that you just read out,

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Speaker 2: I was as you were reading them, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wish that school were more like that, you know, totally,

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Speaker 2: if only it were that engaging for kids, and unfortunately

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Speaker 2: it isn't. But one thing that games really get right,

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Speaker 2: and it's the reason why kids and adults keep playing

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Speaker 2: and playing, is that they're just a little bit hard,

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Speaker 2: a little bit too hard to be completely successful all

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Speaker 2: the time, but not so hard that you become so

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Speaker 2: frustrated that you abandon it. And often school is the

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Speaker 2: complete opposite. It's either too easy or it's way too hard,

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Speaker 2: and either one of those will disengage kids. But video

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Speaker 2: games hit that sweet spot of being just hard enough

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Speaker 2: but not too hard. They give very clear feedback. It

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Speaker 2: just all of the things that keep us engaged. Video

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Speaker 2: games have nailed and they just know how to do it,

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Speaker 2: and so for that reason, they're extremely compelling. Also for

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Speaker 2: that reason is why I'm really delaying the time when

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Speaker 2: I introduce myself to video games. Not because I'm anti

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Speaker 2: video game by any means. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of great, great opportunities, learning opportunities. There are games that

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Speaker 2: support exercise, well being, all sorts of different kinds of learning,

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Speaker 2: lots of research showing benefits of games. But however, they

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Speaker 2: are so compelling. I don't want to say addictive, because

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Speaker 2: you know, research is conflicted about whether or not we

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Speaker 2: can use that term.

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Speaker 1: Yes, just get pretty cranky about the term addiction.

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Speaker 2: Ba they do. That's a very polarizing word. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty safe to say they're very compelling and

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Speaker 2: for some kids, for many kids, it's really difficult to

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Speaker 2: find a balance. And so for me, I'm just trying

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Speaker 2: to avoid it entirely until Oliver is a little bit older,

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Speaker 2: and then we're going to have to really do a

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Speaker 2: lot of hard work of trying to get that balance right.

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Speaker 2: And it's not something I believe that you can actually

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Speaker 2: achieve once and for all and say, Okay, I am

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Speaker 2: now engaging with video games in a balanced way. It's

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Speaker 2: sort of ada a daily act that you have to

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Speaker 2: engage in with your children because it's just too easy

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Speaker 2: to keep playing and playing and playing. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think that there really is a danger sometimes to

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Speaker 2: let that balance get a little bit out of whack.

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Speaker 2: And so things to keep in mind are here. It

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Speaker 2: is really how long has my child been playing this game?

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Speaker 2: And what might they have been doing otherwise if they

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Speaker 2: hadn't been engaged with the game, Because sometimes it might

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Speaker 2: be that there actually wasn't so much great other alternatives

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Speaker 2: for them to do. Maybe they're on a plane and

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Speaker 2: there really isn't any opportunity, or maybe it's raining outside.

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Speaker 2: If you're noticing that there probably could have been some

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Speaker 2: other activities that might be good for them that they

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Speaker 2: could have been engaging, but instead they're just playing video

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Speaker 2: games over and over again, that's when we're starting to

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Speaker 2: think that maybe the balance needs to be recalibrated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that whole and balanced life kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that frustrates me with video game

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Speaker 1: research is it doesn't say what I wanted to say,

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Speaker 1: Like I really want video game research to say too

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Speaker 1: much time gaming is bad for you and it lead

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Speaker 1: to all sorts of negative outcomes in your life. And

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Speaker 1: no matter how much of it I read it, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't know.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't say that.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't tell me that. It says that kids have

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Speaker 1: a great time, that they love it, that it's good

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Speaker 1: for their relationships, there's some cognitive benefit to it. Like

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Speaker 1: it's so frustrating that there's more advantages than the disadvantages

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Speaker 1: really stem from parent child conflicts, because parents want their

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Speaker 1: kids to go and live a whole and balanced life.

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Speaker 1: And even the violent.

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Speaker 2: Video game content, yeah, a lot of it does come

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Speaker 2: from that parent child conflict. A lot of it also

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Speaker 2: does come from you know, there are young people and

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Speaker 2: adults for whom if they're playing so so much, they're engaged,

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Speaker 2: you know, in video games for most of their day

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Speaker 2: or in a big part of their night. If it's

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Speaker 2: starting to interfere with sleep, if it's starting to interfere

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Speaker 2: with school work or social relationships outside of the game.

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Speaker 2: That's when alarm bell should be going off, and there

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Speaker 2: are certainly instances of that, but on the whole, you're right,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the research does show small but positive effects.

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Speaker 2: And then when it comes to violent video games, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a camp of researchers who are pretty adamant that

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Speaker 2: there's a relationship between violent video games and aggression, and

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Speaker 2: then there's another camp that's pretty adamant that there isn't.

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Speaker 2: I think that there's very little evidence that convinces me

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Speaker 2: that playing violent video games causes kids to become violent.

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Speaker 2: There is research showing that perhaps right after a child

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Speaker 2: plays a violent video game, aim they're more aroused and

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Speaker 2: perhaps acting in a slightly more aggressive way. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily mean they become more aggressive, but they certainly are

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Speaker 2: more aroused. But you know, that's a far cry from

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Speaker 2: actually being violent. And so yeah, the research is a

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Speaker 2: little bit murky, and I think it you know, again,

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Speaker 2: we should come back to how is this affecting my

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Speaker 2: individual child? And here again I use this two step

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Speaker 2: decision tool to think about is this self directed? Are

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Speaker 2: they in control or is the game more in control?

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Speaker 2: And that's where that question can really help tease apart.

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Speaker 2: Is this something that where it's more likely to go

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Speaker 2: in the direction of the research that shows positive benefits

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Speaker 2: or more likely to go in the direction of the

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Speaker 2: research showing negative And then the second question is is

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Speaker 2: it community supported? Am I providing support around this experience?

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Speaker 2: Are they engaging with friends while playing games or family members?

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of opportunity for community support

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Speaker 2: during video games, but then there's also an opportunity for

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Speaker 2: bullying and other things. So you want to take a

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Speaker 2: look at what are the social dynamics that are going

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Speaker 2: on during the scheme play those are that's can be

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Speaker 2: really important.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it would be great if research just said what

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Speaker 1: we wanted to say. That's I know, I'm really compelled

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Speaker 1: by what you've said, though I'm reading it the same way.

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Speaker 1: Even things like empathy. There's some really cool studies that

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Speaker 1: show that when somebody walks out of playing a violent

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Speaker 1: video game, they may be a little less likely to

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Speaker 1: help somebody in the corridor that needs a hand with something.

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Speaker 1: But it's not like they go out and start beating

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Speaker 1: people up, or go and buy small arms and threaten people,

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Speaker 1: rob a bank, absolutely, there's no which is kind of frustrating.

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Speaker 1: Although I will say when I was a teenager, I've

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Speaker 1: got to I've got to say this, Katie. When I

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Speaker 1: was a teenager, race to play this car racing game

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Speaker 1: at the local arcade called I think it was called

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Speaker 1: Daytona five hundred or something like that, and I would

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Speaker 1: leave the arcade and get in my car, and I

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Speaker 1: did drive a little faster on the way home from

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Speaker 1: the arcade as I was driving.

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure, yeah, research definitely would support that. But whether

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Speaker 2: that turns you into just someone who's always racing fast

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Speaker 2: in your car, that's less supported.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I would have to say I was

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Speaker 1: erratic for the first few minutes and then I sort

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Speaker 1: of calmed down and I was driving a human again.

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Speaker 1: And I was a young adolescent boy, which probably had

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Speaker 1: something to do with it as well, Katie. The last

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Speaker 1: thing that I just want to touch on, and we

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Speaker 1: have such limited time, is social media. I've been really

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Speaker 1: taken by the research that Jonathan Hate has been doing.

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Speaker 1: For those who are not familiar Jonathan Hate, he's probably

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Speaker 1: one of the world's foremost thinkers in social psychology, and

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Speaker 1: he has been working with Gene Twiney on some really

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Speaker 1: interesting ideas around kids, teenagers social media. He's got a

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Speaker 1: substack called after Babel, Katie. Have you been watching what

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Hate has been writing there, and I'd love to

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Speaker 1: get your take on the impact of social media and

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Speaker 1: whether or not, as he's saying, your rate of the

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Speaker 1: research is showing that it is a genuine, significant contributed

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Speaker 1: to the mental ill health that so many of adolescents

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Speaker 1: are struggling with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so I have to say I have been

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Speaker 2: following Jonathan's work and gene twiness work, and they are

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Speaker 2: doing a great job. They have this ongoing document where

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Speaker 2: they're collecting all the research related to teen social media

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Speaker 2: use and their mental health concerns. And I'm convinced by

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Speaker 2: that research and my own research that there's definitely something

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Speaker 2: going on when it comes to teen social media use

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Speaker 2: and their mental health challenges. It's by no means the

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Speaker 2: sole cause. Whenever you have a mental health challenge or concern,

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Speaker 2: it's multifactorial. There are many factors involved, family relationships, pure relationships,

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Speaker 2: and existing vulnerability towards anxiety or depression. But what I

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Speaker 2: see in my work is that social media often acts

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Speaker 2: as an amplifier of existing challenges or struggles for teens,

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Speaker 2: and it can be a pretty profound amplifier. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty convinced now that you know, at least in

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Speaker 2: the United States, where we're seeing some pretty alarming rises

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Speaker 2: over the last ten years in depression and even just

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Speaker 2: persistent feelings of sadness, particularly among teen girls in LGBTQ

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Speaker 2: plus youth, I am convinced that social media is having

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Speaker 2: a role in that, in addition to many factors that

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Speaker 2: are involved in young people's lives right now, not least

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Speaker 2: of which was the pandemic and the you know, young

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Speaker 2: people are still experiencing the pandemic and what you know,

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Speaker 2: the things that have transpired from it.

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Speaker 1: Yep, Katie, we have, during the course of our conversation

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Speaker 1: over the last two days, dropped several nuggets in terms

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Speaker 1: of how we can help our children to feel like

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Speaker 1: they have agency, to be self directed, to have the

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Speaker 1: level of community support that they need, and how we

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Speaker 1: as parents can engage with them and have hard conversations,

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Speaker 1: as you said, in that exhausting day to day business

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Speaker 1: of working with kids and their technology use. As much

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Speaker 1: as I'd love to do another two episodes talking further

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Speaker 1: about those solutions. What I'm going to do instead is

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Speaker 1: direct people to your book, Technologies Child, Digital Media's Role

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Speaker 1: in the Ages and Stages of Growing Up. It's a

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Speaker 1: book that takes a developmental approach and essentially says, here's

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Speaker 1: what's going on in kids a little, when they're medium,

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Speaker 1: when they're big, and even when they're grown ups in

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Speaker 1: terms of their technology use and what we can do

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Speaker 1: to help them. I found the book immensely helpful, as

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Speaker 1: somebody who has a background in psychology and has been

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Speaker 1: talking about this for a long time. I underlined and

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Speaker 1: made so many notes on what you've written. The science

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Speaker 1: is fantastic, and I just love the way you've made

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Speaker 1: it so accessible for parents. Thank you for your book,

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Speaker 1: and thanks for the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Katie Davis is an associate professor at the University of

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Speaker 1: Washington Information School and the author of the brand new book,

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Speaker 1: Technologies Child Digital Media's Role in the Ages and Stages

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Speaker 1: of Growing Up. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland for Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 1: For More information about Technology's Child you can see the

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Speaker 1: show notes and also check out Katie's website katidavisresearch dot com.

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Speaker 1: If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,

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Speaker 1: she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of

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Speaker 1: research and ideas for how you can manage to tech

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Speaker 1: better in your home with your kids. That's Katidavisresearch dot com.

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Speaker 1: Sign up for the newsletter there