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Speaker 1: We are due to catch up any moment now with

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Speaker 1: Mary Charmers, who is indeed the head of the NT

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Speaker 1: Bar Association, the president. So just trying to get engauged

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Speaker 1: from Crystal as to what exactly the situation is, as

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Speaker 1: we don't have her on the line at this point

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Speaker 1: in time. But what we do know is that Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory Legal Aid is reportedly well set to cut crucial

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Speaker 1: services due to underfunding, in a move that could see

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Speaker 1: criminals walk free, leave others unrepresented in court, and will

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Speaker 1: push a system at absolute breaking point over the edge.

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Speaker 1: Now you did hear us just speak to the Chief

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Speaker 1: Minister about this. It does sound as though it's something

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Speaker 1: that they want to get sorted. She said that she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want it to be a situation obviously where people

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Speaker 1: don't have that representation, but also wanting to make sure

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Speaker 1: that these cases do get to the court to make

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Speaker 1: sure that victims voices are heard. Now, it was widely

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Speaker 1: reported last week the service which provides free lawyers advice

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Speaker 1: to Territorians in need, proposes to scale back services from

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Speaker 1: January one, and that would indeed, well, I mean it

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Speaker 1: would mean that it's going to be a really difficult

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Speaker 1: situation and that is due to those resourcing pressures. Now

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Speaker 1: the move's seen many working in the legal sector speak

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Speaker 1: out and call for the Northern Territory government to immediately

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Speaker 1: address the funding and other issues currently impacting on those

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Speaker 1: most basic of rights, the right to legal representation and

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Speaker 1: affair trial. Now joining me on the line is the

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Speaker 1: NT Bar Association President Mary Charmers sc Good morning, Mary.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Katie, how are you very well?

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. We've been

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Speaker 1: having some phone issues, so thank you for persevering with us. Now, Mary,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me what is the situation from your

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Speaker 1: perspective right now?

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Speaker 2: So, Katie, I represent barristers in the Northern Territory and

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Speaker 2: so I'm really speaking on their behalf. But of course

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Speaker 2: the Bar Association has an interest in a functional criminal

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Speaker 2: justice system, not just the business business concerns of a

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Speaker 2: few barristers. We are very concerned about the announcement about

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Speaker 2: withdrawal of legal aid funding and I was just listening

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Speaker 2: to our Chief Minister a moment ago and was really

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Speaker 2: grateful to hear that she's across the issue. And I

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Speaker 2: heard her mention that for a strong and safe community

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Speaker 2: we need a robust legal aid system. And that's absolutely true.

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Speaker 2: And I was hoping to talk to you today about

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Speaker 2: some of the broader issues that our justice system and

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Speaker 2: victims will face as a result of this decision.

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Speaker 1: Mary, What are some of those broader issues, because for

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Speaker 1: some of us, if we've not had to go through

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Speaker 1: the legal system, or not needed legal aid or not

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Speaker 1: been involved in a court case, we may have no

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Speaker 1: idea what those issues are.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of them. So this isn't a

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Speaker 2: case of oh, well, a few people have lost their lawyer.

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Speaker 2: You know, good jobs, they probably did it anyway. This

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Speaker 2: is about the functionality of our legal aid system. And

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Speaker 2: it's also about a large number of people who are

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Speaker 2: presumed innocent unlesson until a court decides otherwise, many of

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Speaker 2: whom are on remand and who have a facing a

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Speaker 2: great deal of stress and uncertainty at the moment. And

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Speaker 2: in terms of the broader issues in the justice system,

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Speaker 2: lawyers are actually a pretty important cog in the wheel.

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Speaker 2: If there are a large number of cases where the

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Speaker 2: lawyers are there. Some of the flow on effects include

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Speaker 2: this cases will take longer to get listed. Individual trials

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Speaker 2: will take a lot longer. For example, lawyers are able

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Speaker 2: to refine the issues quite substantially, reduce the witness lists

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Speaker 2: and really focus the jury on what the actual issue

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Speaker 2: in the case is. Unrepresented defendants are completely incapable of

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Speaker 2: doing that, and that means the prosecution will need to

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Speaker 2: call all of the witnesses and pursue all of the issues,

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Speaker 2: so trials will take longer. Those delays in our justice

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Speaker 2: system that's already pretty overburdened at the moment are going

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Speaker 2: to be felt not just by defendants waiting for their trial,

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Speaker 2: but also victims who are waiting for justice in their cases.

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Speaker 2: So some defendants will have to be given by because

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Speaker 2: of those extended delays. Some defendants will need to make

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Speaker 2: applications for their matter not to go ahead at all,

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Speaker 2: and some of those applications may be granted. But I

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Speaker 2: think the real issue at the moment is just the

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Speaker 2: enormous uncertainty and stress in the legal community and amongst

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Speaker 2: legally aided defendants, and we really I was gratified to

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Speaker 2: hear the Chief Minister being across the issue and the

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Speaker 2: importance of legal aid in the bigger scheme of things,

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Speaker 2: and just hope that our negotiations are fruitful and that

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Speaker 2: this has resolved swiftly.

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Speaker 1: It does sound like it needs to be resolved swiftly,

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Speaker 1: and I think you're right. You know, to some listening,

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Speaker 1: they might think to themselves, oh, well, good job. If

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Speaker 1: someone doesn't have representation, you know, they might deserve to

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Speaker 1: go to jail. But the reality of it is, as

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Speaker 1: you've just pointed out, this has got really broad ranging

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Speaker 1: impacts and it could actually have broader ranging impacts on victims,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, the last thing that you want

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Speaker 1: to see, and whether people like it or not, everybody

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Speaker 1: does deserve the right to legal representation.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely correct, and a lot of people are acquitted.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if any of your listeners have had

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Speaker 2: friends that have sat on juries. But just because someone

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Speaker 2: is charged with an offense doesn't mean they're guilty of

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Speaker 2: an offense or that there's anywhere near enough evidence for

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Speaker 2: a safe finding of guilty. Juries are made up of

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Speaker 2: very sensible territorians and they equit people every day of

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Speaker 2: the week. So just because someone's charged doesn't mean they're guilty.

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Speaker 2: And lawyers are really important, which is what people find

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Speaker 2: out when they themselves or a friend or one of

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Speaker 2: their kids gets charged.

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Speaker 1: Mary, I understand that you met with Legal Aid on Friday,

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Speaker 1: is that the case. Has there been any update on

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Speaker 1: the situation aside really from what the Chief Minister had

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Speaker 1: said this morning.

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Speaker 2: Look, I don't have inside information. My meeting with Legal

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Speaker 2: Aid is really as a representative of the legal community,

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Speaker 2: just trying to find out exactly what we need to do,

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Speaker 2: what the practical realities are in this situation to help

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Speaker 2: manage the uncertainty and stress in the legal community. So

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Speaker 2: I understand that there's a significant funding shortfall. I understand

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Speaker 2: that it's a combination of ongoing funding pressures of the

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Speaker 2: type that the Chief Minister was talking about, and it's

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Speaker 2: been exacerbated by the crisis that we're still recovering from

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Speaker 2: in our justice system that occurred as a result of

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Speaker 2: NAJA having to withdraw legal services in Central Australia because

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Speaker 2: of staffing shortages in the past year. So we're limping

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Speaker 2: along as it is. This is really serious.

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Speaker 1: Mary Chalmers, we're two from here from your perspective.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, our focus at the Bar Association is really

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Speaker 2: providing support to our members and the broader legal community

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Speaker 2: as we are as this fold. Of course, we're willing

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Speaker 2: to be of any assistance we can. I have got

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Speaker 2: in a request to meet with the Attorney General, but

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Speaker 2: I understand she's pretty busy. I understand that she is

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Speaker 2: meeting with Legal Aid and I'm gratified to hear that.

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Speaker 2: And we're just really in a support role at the moment.

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Speaker 2: We don't have we can't fund Legal Aid.

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Speaker 1: To help. I guess, well, yeah, And look, I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate you having a chat with us this morning, because

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Speaker 1: I think it gives people that perspective as to why

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Speaker 1: this is such an issue. We are going to be

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Speaker 1: catching up with Beth Wilde as well after ten o'clock today,

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Speaker 1: of course, from the Criminal Lawyers Association, to find out

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about what it all means from

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Speaker 1: their perspective. But Mary Chalmers, SC, the NT Bar Association President,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time this morning. I know that

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Speaker 1: you are a very busy woman, particularly after hearing a

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Speaker 1: bit more about this whole situation today. All right, thanks Katie,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thanks so much.