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Speaker 1: Already and this this is the Daily Off.

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Speaker 2: This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 1: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It is Sunday, the twenty fourth of November.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 1: Happy Sunday, Billy, Happy Sunday. We're not usually in your

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Speaker 1: ears on a Sunday, so it's a bit of a

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Speaker 1: treat to be here today. We are bringing you a

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Speaker 1: bonus episode. We are intercepting your podcast feeds midweekend to

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Speaker 1: answer all the questions you have about vaping. So you

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Speaker 1: might have seen on our Instagram stories last week that

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Speaker 1: we asked you what do you not know about vaping

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Speaker 1: that you would like us to explain. It was no

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Speaker 1: surprise to us that we got hundreds and hundreds of

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Speaker 1: messages from you. There was so much that you wanted

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Speaker 1: us to explain to you, and so today we are

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Speaker 1: going to answer as much as we can.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited for this chat. I feel like it's

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Speaker 2: one of those really practical, relevant conversations. Just a note

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Speaker 2: before we get into it. This episode is sponsored by

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Speaker 2: the Australian Department of Health and Age Care, but they've

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Speaker 2: had no editorial influence over the content. We're sharing in

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Speaker 2: today's episode. So, Billy, I think before we get into

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Speaker 2: the specific questions, let's go right back to basics. Can

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Speaker 2: you explain to me what a vape actually is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going right right back to the very basics.

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Speaker 1: But I do think this is important because a vape

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Speaker 1: is something that we see all the time, but we

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Speaker 1: probably have never actually looked into what exactly it is.

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Speaker 1: So a vape is a battery operated device that can

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Speaker 1: look like a cigarette, a cigar or also you know,

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Speaker 1: other common items like highlighters or even a USB. And

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Speaker 1: often the illegal vapes people get on the black market

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Speaker 1: are quite colorful. That can kind of be one of

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Speaker 1: the defining features of many illegal vapes, and that's because

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Speaker 1: they're designed to appeal to the youth market, which is

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Speaker 1: part of the whole problem that these products are so

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Speaker 1: explicitly designed for the youth. And the mist of vapor

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Speaker 1: that is emitted from vapes is made by heating up

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Speaker 1: liquid chemicals, which is what you breathe in when you

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Speaker 1: are vaping.

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Speaker 2: And that's where nicotine enters the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and so one of the key substances in most

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Speaker 1: fates is nicotine, which is also in cigarettes and is

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Speaker 1: an extremely addictive substance. Sam, do you know why nicotine

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Speaker 1: is so addictive?

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Speaker 2: It taps into the cravings part of your brain.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, But do you know the science behind it?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: You've never looked into it. That's so surprising. I know.

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Speaker 2: I'm a top line guy, So when I.

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Speaker 1: Was researching for this podcast, I found it really interesting

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Speaker 1: the science behind why nicotine is so addictive. And so

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Speaker 1: it's because it causes the brain to release dopamine, which

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Speaker 1: are probably heard of as a fappy Yeah, it's the

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Speaker 1: feel good chemical. But the effect of nicotine wears off

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Speaker 1: super super quickly, which is then what causes this vicious

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Speaker 1: cycle where the brain tricks you into thinking you need

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Speaker 1: to vape to feel satisfied or to get that dopamine

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Speaker 1: hit again, and that is how it becomes so addictive.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's easy to understand then, how quickly that cycle

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Speaker 2: can evolve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because you get that hit and then it wears

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Speaker 1: off really quickly, and then you do it again to

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Speaker 1: feel the exact same thing.

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Speaker 2: And then if you have an addictive personality that can

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Speaker 2: also kind of highlight or accentuate how quickly that happens.

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Speaker 1: And another thing to note about a lot of vapes

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of research has shown that most

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Speaker 1: vps that say they don't contain nicotine actually do. And

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Speaker 1: that is another part of why so many vapes are dangerous,

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Speaker 1: because you don't know what is actually inside of them,

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Speaker 1: even if you think that you do. Another thing that

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Speaker 1: I found super interesting when researching for this is that

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Speaker 1: vapes can actually have more nicotine in them than cigarettes.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes they have up to five times more nicotine

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Speaker 1: than a cigarette. I had no idea about that.

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Speaker 2: And think about that as an image, Think about five

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Speaker 2: cigarettes in your mouth. It's quite a start kind of

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Speaker 2: physical representation of how much nicotine is in a vape.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get more into this, but just at

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Speaker 1: a very high level at the top. There is a

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Speaker 1: lot of research that tells us how harmful vaping is.

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Speaker 1: It can cause breathing issues, lung damage, and we also

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Speaker 1: know that nicotine dependents can also have an impact on

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Speaker 1: mental health.

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Speaker 2: So, Billy, I feel like we've had this vaping conversation

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Speaker 2: now for not a long time, maybe a couple of years.

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Speaker 2: Where are we at with vapes in Australia? How popular

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Speaker 2: are they and how long have you been tracking this story.

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Speaker 1: For vapes are so pervasive today, but I think it's

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Speaker 1: easy to forget how you know, only a short time ago,

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Speaker 1: they weren't everywhere. I remember when I first came to

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Speaker 1: The Daily, I was about three and a half years ago.

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Speaker 1: I think it was in my first month that I

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Speaker 1: pitched you Sam a story about vapes and you had

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Speaker 1: never heard of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that, Billy, and I remember thinking at

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Speaker 2: the time that I had kind of seen these things around,

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Speaker 2: I hadn't even had conversations about what they were. We

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Speaker 2: put up the story. You did a fantastic job on

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Speaker 2: that piece, and it was one of our most viewed

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Speaker 2: pieces of that year.

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Speaker 1: And every time we do a story on va now,

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Speaker 1: it just there's so much engagement. There are so many

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Speaker 1: young people really wanting to understand more about what it

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Speaker 1: is they are inhaling. Your question, though, was about popularity.

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Speaker 1: So let's go through some quick stats. So in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: eight years ago, it is estimated that about one hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand people were using e cigarettes daily. In twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: that jumped to about seven hundred thousand people who are

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Speaker 1: using them daily.

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Speaker 2: So you have a seven times in Greece in seven years.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and again that is using them daily. That's not

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Speaker 1: people who are just using them socially on the weekend.

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Speaker 1: That is seven hundred thousand people who use them every

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Speaker 1: single day. We also know that this rise can mostly

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Speaker 1: be attributed to the uptake of vaping by young people.

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Speaker 1: So nearly one in ten people aged eighteen to twenty

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Speaker 1: four are vaping daily in Australia currently currently, and those

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Speaker 1: numbers are all according to the National Drug Strategy Household

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Speaker 1: Survey which came out in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: I'm keen to get some questions from the audience and

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Speaker 2: put them to you. The first question that caught my

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Speaker 2: eye was a question about the long term effects of vaping.

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Speaker 2: As we've just discussed this is an early ish phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: What do we know about the longer term effects of

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Speaker 2: daily vaping.

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Speaker 1: So let's go through some of the known effects first

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Speaker 1: and then we can discuss long term. So we know

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Speaker 1: that vaping can lead to things like lung inflammation, coughing

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Speaker 1: and also breathing issues, and people can also experience persistent coughing,

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Speaker 1: chest pain and also palpitations and respiratory problems. It can

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Speaker 1: also result in permanent lung damage and also nicotine poisoning.

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Speaker 2: And that's the term I've heard more and more recently.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain to me a bit more about nicotine

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Speaker 2: poisoning what that is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So this happens if you have too much nicotine

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Speaker 1: in your body from inhalation or the liquid nicotine in

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Speaker 1: a vape is actually swallowed. And you'll know if you

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Speaker 1: have nicotine poisoning because of symptoms like nausea, vomiting, dizziness, headaches,

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Speaker 1: or even feeling really confuse. And it can also make

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Speaker 1: you really weak and tired, and we know it is

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Speaker 1: becoming more common because of vaping.

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Speaker 2: And so those are all symptoms and experiences that nicotine poisoning,

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Speaker 2: for example, that you could have on a day where

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Speaker 2: you're actually vaping.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those are a short term right, So what.

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Speaker 2: Do we know about the longer term effects?

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Speaker 1: I want to start with brains, the effect that vaping

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Speaker 1: can have on our brains. So studies suggest that being

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Speaker 1: exposed to nicotine can be harmful for young brains in particular,

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Speaker 1: which we know is still developing until you're late twenties.

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Speaker 1: So Sam, your brain hasn't stopped developing yet.

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Speaker 2: Thank god, because this is all I'm left with. Then

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Speaker 2: we've got a problem.

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Speaker 1: So there are several ways research says that vaping can

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Speaker 1: impact the brain, things like your mood, impulse control, and

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Speaker 1: also learning. And there's also a lot of research that

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Speaker 1: tells us that nicotine dependence can have a negative impact

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Speaker 1: on mental health. I feel like anecdotally, you know, you

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Speaker 1: can see in people around you who might vape, that

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Speaker 1: you can really see when vaping has that kind of

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Speaker 1: mental health impact. But just to confirm, like, there is

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Speaker 1: research there that confirms.

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Speaker 2: That even if it's the agitation or trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out how to kind of leave a situation in order

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Speaker 2: to go and have a vape, it's all of those

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Speaker 2: things that can contribute to that state of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and interesting you bring up the word anxiety, because

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Speaker 1: the World Health Organization does say that vaping has been

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Speaker 1: directly linked to anxiety disorders, right, although one thing to

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Speaker 1: note is that research is limited in assessing of vaping

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Speaker 1: behaviors or mental health symptoms come first, So kind of

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Speaker 1: like a question about the chicken.

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Speaker 2: Or the egg there, and do we have any information

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Speaker 2: about whether people are moving from cigarettes to vaping or

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Speaker 2: from vaping the cigarettes or you know in terms of

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Speaker 2: that causation point, is one coming before the other.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so we know that young people who use e

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Speaker 1: cigarettes are more likely to start smoking cigarettes than non vapors,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's something that is important to bring

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Speaker 1: up in the conversation about the long term health effects

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Speaker 1: of vaping, because we know that if you are then

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Speaker 1: moving on to cigarettes, there is again a lot of

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Speaker 1: research about the long term effects of cigarettes that you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that we need to get into.

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Speaker 2: Because that's pretty well established.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And I've actually heard a couple of people just anecdotically

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Speaker 2: actually take up cigarettes to get off vapes, and it's

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Speaker 2: that kind of situation that can be really concerning.

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Speaker 1: And so dangerous.

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Speaker 2: But then let's keep going with this long term effects discussion.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about the brain. Are there still some things though,

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Speaker 2: that we don't know about the long term effects of vaping?

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Speaker 1: Yes, there is still stuff that we don't know. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: like we said before, vaping hasn't been around long enough,

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Speaker 1: or at least as popular as it is now for

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Speaker 1: long enough for there to be enough research about those

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Speaker 1: longer term effects. So we don't know yet how vaping

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Speaker 1: excessively or vaping even just occasionally in your twenties will

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Speaker 1: impact you in your sixties, because the people in their

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Speaker 1: sixties today weren't vaping when they we're in their twenties.

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Speaker 2: To all of these yeah, all of this research is

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Speaker 2: going to come out. It's just going to take forty

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Speaker 2: years for us all to grow up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why there is this concern about whether

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Speaker 1: we are just repeating the mistakes that were made with

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Speaker 1: the generation that grew up with smoking. One thing that

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Speaker 1: I also just want to mention that I haven't yet

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Speaker 1: is that we do know that the risk of harm

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Speaker 1: by being exposed to these chemicals is increased by frequent

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Speaker 1: vaping over a period of time. So we know that

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Speaker 1: the more that you vape, the more harmful.

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Speaker 2: It will be. And Billy, when you were explaining that

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Speaker 2: before my ears pricked up with the C word cancer

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Speaker 2: that you mentioned in there, we actually also had a

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Speaker 2: question from the audience about if there's a link between

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Speaker 2: vaping and lung cancer, what can you tell me about

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Speaker 2: that particular relationship.

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Speaker 1: So more research again is needed in this area. But

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Speaker 1: in March, new research was published in Cancer Research that

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Speaker 1: revealed people who vape for a year or more and

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Speaker 1: who have also never smoked before have similar changes in

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Speaker 1: their cells to smokes who go on to develop lung cancer.

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Speaker 1: And it was that research that actually resulted in one

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Speaker 1: six hundred respiratory health professionals publishing a media release earlier

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Speaker 1: this year which talked about the possibility that e cigarette

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Speaker 1: use could also lead to lung cancer. So there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of professionals and experts in this area who

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Speaker 1: are really concerned about the link between vaping and lung cancer.

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Speaker 1: And they also expressed, like I said before, concern that

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Speaker 1: we are making the same mistakes we made with cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: And as what often happens with these trends that emerge

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Speaker 2: relatively fast in society and have adverse health effects, be

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Speaker 2: that physical or mental, the law takes a little while

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Speaker 2: to respond and to kind of keep up with developments.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the law, and I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about what the government is doing about the

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Speaker 2: rise in vapes. What's the latest in terms of the regulations,

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Speaker 2: and where do you think it's going to go next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great question that we got a

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Speaker 1: lot from the audience because it has been changing incrementally

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Speaker 1: over the past few years. So it's understandable why there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of confusion about what exactly the law is.

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Speaker 1: So I'll tell you the latest. In July, Australia became

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Speaker 1: the first country in the world to ban the sale

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Speaker 1: of all vapes outside of pharmacies, and that law meant

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Speaker 1: that the only legal way to access a vape was

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Speaker 1: from a pharmacy if you had a prescription. So there's

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Speaker 1: been this real push from the government to stop people

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Speaker 1: from accessing vapes altogether unless you're wanting to access a

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Speaker 1: vape because you're trying to quit smoking or to manage

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Speaker 1: nicotine dependence.

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Speaker 2: And then there was this new law in October, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So in October a new law again came into

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Speaker 1: effect that allows adults to buy vapes from a pharmacy

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Speaker 1: without a prescription where state and territory laws allow. Did

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Speaker 1: you know that was the thing.

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Speaker 2: Sud No, that's really interesting. So you can still go

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Speaker 2: to a pharmacy without the prescription and get a vape that.

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Speaker 1: Way, yes, and that is specifically for people who are

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Speaker 1: trying to access a vape to quit smoking or to

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Speaker 1: manage their nicotine dependence. But to answer your question, yes,

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Speaker 1: if you fall into one of those two buckets. You

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Speaker 1: can go to a pharmacy to access a vape without

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Speaker 1: a prescription.

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Speaker 2: And so presumably that would lead to a conversation with

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Speaker 2: a pharmacist. That has to happen before you can actually

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Speaker 2: buy the vape.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so you have to have a conversation with a pharmacist,

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Speaker 1: you're right. And also it's only available for people who

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Speaker 1: are aged eighteen and over, so it's only available for adults.

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Speaker 1: For people who are under eighteen, they do need a prescription.

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Speaker 2: And I imagine the vapes that you can get from

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Speaker 2: the pharmacy are not the bright, colorful, flavored, no kind

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Speaker 2: of ones that you used to get from convenience stores.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the vapes you can get at a pharmacy

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Speaker 1: are obviously not the same as the ones that are

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Speaker 1: being sold illegally. They don't come in bright packaging or

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Speaker 1: in those fruity flavors. They do have nicotine in them,

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Speaker 1: but only below a certain concentration level. You can buy

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Speaker 1: vapes from a far pharmacy with a higher concentration level

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Speaker 1: of nicotine, but you do need a prescription for that.

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Speaker 2: So, just to be clear and kind of wrap all

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Speaker 2: of that into a very tidy, little bow. It means

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Speaker 2: you can buy vapes with nicotine if you don't have

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Speaker 2: a prescription to help you quit smoking of vaping by

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Speaker 2: going to a pharmacy if you're over eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Got it a plus student, right, So.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of terms and cognitions there. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: there's quite a lot of pieces to that puzzle. Do

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Speaker 2: we know if people have actually been using that option?

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Speaker 1: We actually do. We only just found out. So in

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Speaker 1: a recent Senate estimates it was revealed that three thy

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Speaker 1: five hundred people had accessed a vape from a pharmacy

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Speaker 1: in the month of October. So that's not including vapes

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Speaker 1: that were obtained from a pharmacist with a prescription. That

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Speaker 1: is three thy five hundred people who accessed a vape

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Speaker 1: without a prescription from a pharmacy.

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Speaker 2: So that's a good number, that three and a half thousand,

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Speaker 2: but it's obviously not as much as the total number

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Speaker 2: of people in Australia who vape. I think we can

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Speaker 2: all agree on that, yees.

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Speaker 1: So we know that there is an estam mated one

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Speaker 1: million people around the country who vape.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we can be adults here and have

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Speaker 2: a conversation about the fact that there are still vapes

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Speaker 2: available illegally from convenience stores. How are they still so available?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's like many other illegal substances that people

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Speaker 1: are still managing to access them because there are businesses

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Speaker 1: that are selling them illegally. And also the reforms have

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Speaker 1: only come into effect very recently, so there still needs

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Speaker 1: to be some time for it to really take effect.

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Speaker 1: But important to say that any business like vape shops

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Speaker 1: or you mentioned convenience stores, sam, if they are selling vapes,

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Speaker 1: they are doing that illegally and that is something that

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Speaker 1: the government is trying to crack down on. We know

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Speaker 1: that at the start of the year a different piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation came into effect which banned the importation of

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Speaker 1: disposable vapes. That was really big when it came into effect.

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Speaker 2: And that was trying to kind of limit the supply

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Speaker 2: of those vapes that are being sold illegally.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, and since then, nearly six million vapes have been

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Speaker 1: seized by authorities in Australia. And that legislation that was

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Speaker 1: introduced at the start of the year, it also increased

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Speaker 1: the penalties for businesses that are caught illegally selling vapes,

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Speaker 1: which is why if you are buying vapes from a

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Speaker 1: convenience store, which again is illegal, you have probably seen

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Speaker 1: the price of them go up.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting how there's kind of different strategies to

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Speaker 2: try and counter this now black market of disposable vapes

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Speaker 2: from a supply point of view, from a selling point

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Speaker 2: of view. So, Billy, I'm somebody who has had asthma

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Speaker 2: for a very long time. I'm famous in the office

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Speaker 2: for carrying around my PAFFA. I don't vape because it

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Speaker 2: would have a negative impact on me pretty clearly straight away.

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Speaker 2: But I do know that I'm around people who vape,

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Speaker 2: and I'm wondering about the effects of secondhand vape vapor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. I don't know about people with asthma specifically,

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Speaker 1: but I do know that the World Health Organization says

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Speaker 1: that particularly in indoor settings, it can result in potential

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Speaker 1: risks to non vapors who are around vapors. But I

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Speaker 1: can say on the back of the who there is

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Speaker 1: research to say that it could impact you, particularly in

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Speaker 1: indoor settings.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we've talked through the short term effects of vaping,

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Speaker 2: the long term effects of vaping, how the law is working,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that you can still get some vapes

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Speaker 2: for the purpose of trying to quit smoking from pharmacies.

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Speaker 2: I want to bring all of this together and leave

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Speaker 2: everybody with a conversation about what to do if you

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Speaker 2: want to quit vaping. Talk me through some of the

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Speaker 2: recommendations about how you should go about doing that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And people have different reasons for why they would

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Speaker 1: want to quit vaping. Some people are concerned about the

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Speaker 1: health effects. Some will quit vaping to feel better for

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Speaker 1: their body and mind to feel better. Some of those

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Speaker 1: might relate to listeners, or some of them they might

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Speaker 1: have a completely other reason for why they would want

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Speaker 1: to quit. If you are listening to this and you

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Speaker 1: want to quit but don't know how, there are a

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Speaker 1: few different places that you can go to to get support.

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Speaker 1: So you can go to the my quit Buddy app

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Speaker 1: which helps you to track your progress and stay motivated.

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Speaker 1: There are so many apps out there that really help

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Speaker 1: you track a whole range.

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Speaker 2: Of habit falling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeahteresting, And I found it interesting when I was

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Speaker 1: researching for this that you could also find one to

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Speaker 1: help you quit vaping. You can also call Quitline on

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Speaker 1: one three seven eight four eight, where you can confidentially

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Speaker 1: speak to a counselor, and another option is also to

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Speaker 1: speak to a GP or health professional about the best

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Speaker 1: way to quit for you.

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Speaker 2: I've seen from quite a few people who've kind of

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Speaker 2: documented their quitting journeys online that it's not a process

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Speaker 2: that's without challenge. You know, there are challenges to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's never linear. I think quitting anything is always

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Speaker 1: a bit of a challenge. We know that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who have tried to quit vaping have experienced

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Speaker 1: challenges like cravings, mood swings. Some people experience reastlessness, but

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Speaker 1: that is all normal to experience when trying to quit,

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Speaker 1: and it's just about how to manage them using the

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Speaker 1: support services.

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Speaker 2: That I just mentioned, and we're going to put those

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Speaker 2: support services in today's show notes. Billy, thank you for

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Speaker 2: that conversation, and thanks to all the readers as well

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Speaker 2: and followers of TDA who reached out with questions, the

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Speaker 2: hundreds of questions. I think it's really important for us

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Speaker 2: in the news to be having these conversations about these

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Speaker 2: issues that feel very live. They feel like they're kind

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Speaker 2: of evolving in real time, whether it's from a health

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Speaker 2: or a law perspective. So thanks for taking us through

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Speaker 2: what is a very complicated area.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for on this special Sunday

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Speaker 2: edition of The Daily Ours. We're going to be back

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Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow morning with a deep dive. Until then,

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Speaker 2: I'll have those links in the show notes and have

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Speaker 2: a great Sunday. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm

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Speaker 2: a proud Arunda Bunjelung Chalcotin woman from Gadighl Country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily Os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gatighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay

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Speaker 1: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both

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Speaker 1: past and present.