1
00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,360
Speaker 1: On yesterday's Happy Families podcast, I had one of the

2
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,480
Speaker 1: most important and valuable conversations about bullying that I think

3
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: we've ever had here on the pod. And we've talked

4
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,919
Speaker 1: about bullying quite a lot. Professor Donna Cross, who works

5
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: now with the New South Wales Government and emeritus professor

6
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: at the University of Western Australia, is talking to us

7
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: about how we can help our kids if they are

8
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,960
Speaker 1: being bullied. Donna is the New South Wales Chief Behavior

9
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: Advisor with the New South Wales Government, talking about how

10
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: we can make prevention happen in schools to keep our

11
00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 1: kids safe. And today on the podcast we're going to

12
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: talk about the ubiquity of bullying. I think it's pretty

13
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: much everywhere. I'd be surprised if there's a single school

14
00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: where it's not happening, at least in some way. It's

15
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 1: absolutely all over the place online, some kids are more

16
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 1: likely to be bullied than others. And if your child

17
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,840
Speaker 1: is being bullied, today on the podcast we unpack what

18
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,160
Speaker 1: to do to help them to get through some of

19
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,000
Speaker 1: the hardest things that they will encounter as students. That's

20
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,640
Speaker 1: next stay with us. This is the Happy Families Podcast.

21
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: Real parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

22
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm doctor Justin Coulson and today I'm joined once again

23
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: a continuation of yesterday's conversation with Professor Donna Cross from

24
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: the University of Wa. Donna, I gave the long bio yesterday.

25
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it today because there's just

26
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 1: so much for us to discuss. Here's my first hard question.

27
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with the personal story. One of

28
00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 1: my daughters was bullied quite significantly during grade eight, so

29
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 1: much so that after working with the school and not

30
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 1: making any progress, we ended up taking her out of

31
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 1: school and homeschooling her for about eighteen months before she finally,

32
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,200
Speaker 1: in grade ten, said I'm ready to go back. So

33
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 1: we found another school and she's been doing quite well

34
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 1: since then. I'm in schools on an almost daily basis,

35
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: giving presentations for parents, often about resilience and anxiety, and

36
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 1: from time to time bullying and the challenges around it.

37
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 1: It's my belief that bullying exists in some form or

38
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,440
Speaker 1: another in pretty much every single school in this country.

39
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: I'd love you to respond to that and tell me,

40
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 1: am I right? Am I wrong? What are the prevalent

41
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,679
Speaker 1: stats like at a school by school basis.

42
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 2: Really sadly, about fifty percent of Australian children report that

43
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,080
Speaker 2: they were bullied.

44
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 3: At least once in the last year at school.

45
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: That's astonishing, I mean an that's huge.

46
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 3: It is certainly huge.

47
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 2: And for some children it's an episode and it stops,

48
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 2: but for other children, a small minority, about twenty percent

49
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,519
Speaker 2: of children, it continues over time, year after year. And

50
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 2: really sadly, one of the biggest predictors of the likelihood

51
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: have been bullied is if you've been bullied before.

52
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of that stat That's that's really tough.

53
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 1: So yesterday on the podcast, we talked about preventative factors,

54
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,519
Speaker 1: talked about protective factors, we talked about risk factors for

55
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,840
Speaker 1: children being bullied. Today, I want to get really focused

56
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 1: on what to do if your child has been bullied,

57
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 1: whether it's happening face to face or on one. Oh

58
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 1: last time I looked at the stats, it seems that

59
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: the face to face bullying happens more than online. Can

60
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,240
Speaker 1: you just confirm that for me or has that changed?

61
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 2: No, certainly is much more prevalent, even though the media

62
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 2: has kind of picked up on cyber bullying, and it

63
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,519
Speaker 2: gets a lot of attention. Up to about fifteen percent

64
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,320
Speaker 2: of young people report that they've been cyberbully to it

65
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 2: in the last last twelve months.

66
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 3: At a level that is that's hurt them to a degree.

67
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 2: Probably nearly forty percent of kids will say something awful

68
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 2: has happened online to them. But it's not necessarily bullying,

69
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: but being bullied face to face, whether that be covert

70
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 2: bullying or more overt pushing and hitting and so on,

71
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: but being left out, having friends taking stuff from you,

72
00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 2: and being threatened. No, forty five fifty and of children

73
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 2: sadly are reporting that, so it's still the most prevalent.

74
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 2: But the two sit together. You know, some people have

75
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 2: said that cyber bullying and face to face bullying is

76
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, same wine, different bottle, same please, different dog.

77
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a different way that it's delivered.

78
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: So before we talk about what to do, what are

79
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,240
Speaker 1: the signals, What are the things that a parent would

80
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: be attuned to to identify that something's amiss and that

81
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: bullying is happening in their child's life.

82
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's trick to pick up on because a lot

83
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,160
Speaker 2: of the changes that happen, you know, through late childhood

84
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,919
Speaker 2: going into adolescence are often related to changes related to.

85
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,600
Speaker 1: Adolescents and staying in their room all the time right

86
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: exactly the.

87
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 2: Moody you know, this distance from parents that are pushing away.

88
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,720
Speaker 2: Those kinds of things are hard for us to monitor,

89
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 2: but just things to be mindful of. More children are

90
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,600
Speaker 2: bullied around year four, so ten eleven years of age,

91
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,480
Speaker 2: and any other time in their life, So that's an

92
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 2: important queue for parents to be kind of watching their

93
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 2: children around this age. And of course all that we're

94
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 2: going to talk about shortly needs to be delivered well

95
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 2: before children are in year four, but don't if you're

96
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: children older than that, there's still things to do to

97
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 2: support them. The next big increase in bullying happens through

98
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 2: transition from primary school to high school, and this smooth

99
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,720
Speaker 2: of the transition are less likely the bullying. But where

100
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: we as a school structure muck up friendship groups and sadly,

101
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 2: as a result, when children move into our high school environment,

102
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 2: those children who are bullied kind of reassert the social

103
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: hierarchies within the school. So when we think about and

104
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 2: what should we be watching for, first of all, we

105
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 2: need to watch developmentally, what are the changes we see

106
00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 2: within our children. We need to know our children really well,

107
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 2: and we need to know their friends as best we can,

108
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 2: as much as we're allowed to. So having friends over

109
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,720
Speaker 2: to your home is a great way to see how

110
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 2: your children relate to their friends, so that you can

111
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 2: then observe those friendship changes. If that same person who

112
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,600
Speaker 2: is their best friend isn't coming over anymore, and maybe

113
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 2: your child's spending much more time alone, maybe they're doing

114
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 2: things online where you can hear them, where they're touching

115
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 2: their keyboard in angry ways and then coming.

116
00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,559
Speaker 3: Away being in a very sad mood.

117
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 2: Those are the kinds of indicators in amongst all that

118
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 2: beautiful change that's happening at adolescents, to help you notice

119
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,120
Speaker 2: those social changes and emotional changes and often physical changes,

120
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 2: not sleeping, you know, having difficulty eating would be some

121
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:36,560
Speaker 2: key cues.

122
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 1: Let's say we identify either because our child tells us,

123
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,559
Speaker 1: or because we're attentive enough and somehow the signals allowed

124
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 1: enough that we can identify that our child is being bullied.

125
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,279
Speaker 1: What are the appropriate action steps? This is so complicated,

126
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,200
Speaker 1: isn't it. I Mean we've seen news stories where parents

127
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 1: have gone into school and had some things to say

128
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,960
Speaker 1: to the bully, to the student who's harming their child.

129
00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 1: Obviously that's not a good option. But what are the options?

130
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 1: What do you see as being the most effective?

131
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 3: And such a good question, Thanks so much for asking. Justin.

132
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 2: We ran a study that was called keeping in Touch,

133
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 2: and we conducted this study because we found that the

134
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 2: majority of children in our research that when we asked

135
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,240
Speaker 2: them if they were bullied, did they tell someone?

136
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 3: Boys almost told no one.

137
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 2: Less than ten percent of boys said they told somebody

138
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,960
Speaker 2: if they were bullied, and about a quarter of girls

139
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 2: said that they told somebody when they're being bullied.

140
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 3: So a lot of kids aren't telling.

141
00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 2: And we then answer them, why, you know, what is

142
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 2: it that adults are doing so wrong that you're not

143
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,400
Speaker 2: trusting us to come and tell us when these things

144
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 2: are messy, or that you're telling us really late when

145
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 2: it's scott it's so difficult to address. And they said

146
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 2: that there are four things that we don't do well.

147
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 2: And we've put these four things into a model just

148
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 2: a way to remember a bit of a rubrie. I

149
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 2: use this all the time, and the model that we

150
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: remember I remember is called late.

151
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 3: So lat that L part is that we don't listen

152
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 3: very well. According to the.

153
00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 2: Kids, they say, we hear a bit of what's going on,

154
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,920
Speaker 2: and then we take over immediately. We don't ask more questions,

155
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 2: like tell me more about who was there, what happened,

156
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 2: So maybe it would happen at the bus stop.

157
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 3: You know who else was at the bus stop? Where

158
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 3: their teachers there?

159
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 2: So that really deeply understanding the situation and giving your

160
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,559
Speaker 2: children time to tell their story without rushing in.

161
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:36,440
Speaker 3: So that's the L part.

162
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,880
Speaker 2: The A is that they say, we often are quick

163
00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 2: to get to the solution without recognizing that it really

164
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,959
Speaker 2: is hurting them. And so they said, the second stage

165
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,679
Speaker 2: is acknowledge that it hurts. So they want to hear

166
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,679
Speaker 2: us say something like that sounds really tough, just giving

167
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,679
Speaker 2: them a moment where you show you believe in them

168
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 2: and you believe what's happened and you appreciate it's difficult.

169
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 2: They said, we often say things like and I know

170
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 2: I've said this, so you know I say it with

171
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 2: great shame.

172
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,080
Speaker 3: I don't worry. There's plenty of other people you can

173
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,320
Speaker 3: play with. And they said, that just shows.

174
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 2: We completely don't get you know what is so important

175
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 2: to them and having those friends around them. So that's

176
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 2: the second step. Acknowledge that it hurts. That sounds really tough.

177
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 2: The third stage, is it Okay if I go through

178
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:21,440
Speaker 2: all these.

179
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 1: Stages, just oh, totally, this is so valuable. I've got

180
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of questions and things that I

181
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 1: want to pick up on comments about each of them.

182
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 1: But let's let's go through the lat acronym first, because

183
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 1: I think this is so valuable.

184
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 3: Okay.

185
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,199
Speaker 2: So the third step is to talk about options. That's

186
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 2: what the tea is about. So here children told us

187
00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,520
Speaker 2: that often as parents are as teachers, we rush in

188
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 2: with okay, the first thing we're going to do when

189
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,520
Speaker 2: go to the school and we're going to talk to

190
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 2: your head of house, and we're going to go and

191
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,560
Speaker 2: see the principal. And the kids just go, oh my goodness,

192
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 2: this is so out of control, and they get really

193
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 2: frightened and they're shut down. Instead, they said, what they'd

194
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 2: like to see here is that you get a chance

195
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,400
Speaker 2: to talk about what they could do where they have

196
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,040
Speaker 2: some autonomy and control. And even for younger children, this

197
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 2: is still helpful because you're building in them a self

198
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 2: confidence that there are things I can do here versus

199
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 2: that learned helplessness. Someone's just going to come in and

200
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 2: fix it for me, which at the time that might

201
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,959
Speaker 2: be helpful, but it's not helping them long term. We're

202
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 2: not building resilience. So here you might ask questions like,

203
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,240
Speaker 2: tell me what you tried, how did that work? Who

204
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 2: else has tried that? Does it work for them? What

205
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 2: have you seen other children doing in this situation? Could

206
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 2: you do that? So really pushing them to think about

207
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 2: from their own ideas, and then if they're really stuck,

208
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 2: and many times I've done this with children, They've got

209
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what I can do,

210
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 2: and then you can ask them questions like, well, when

211
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,280
Speaker 2: this happened to me, I tried blah, only one thing

212
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,040
Speaker 2: at a time. Let them know I couldn't do that. Okay,

213
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 2: I've seen somebody else do blah. Do you think that

214
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 2: would work? And giving them time to process and really

215
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 2: feel like I'm in control here. And then the last

216
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,079
Speaker 2: I wasn't coming to. The last E is for end

217
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 2: with encouragement and hear children, particularly Australian children. I worked

218
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 2: in the US for five years and this isn't so

219
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,199
Speaker 2: true for American children, but for Australian children, they don't

220
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 2: want to be winges and they say, you know, I've

221
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 2: told this to someone. I don't want to come back

222
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 2: and tell it again because you just think I'm complaining

223
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 2: or that I'm winging about this issue. And so what

224
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 2: we need to do as adults is to say, look.

225
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 3: This will get better. It's really tough now, but you

226
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 3: know what I'm around.

227
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 2: So as a parent, let's talk about this after school tomorrow,

228
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 2: let's go for a walk and have a chat and

229
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,079
Speaker 2: so on. Or as a teacher, I'm on duty on Wednesdays,

230
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 2: come and have a chat with me, or come to

231
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 2: my office next Wednesday and let me know how this

232
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 2: is going. So it's really leading the door open to

233
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 2: have more conversations. And I guess the most important issue

234
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 2: when you're having this conversation with children, especially with boys,

235
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 2: is don't sit opposite them them at a table and

236
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,160
Speaker 2: look them in the eyes, walk with them shouldered shoulder,

237
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,559
Speaker 2: have conversations in the car shouldered shoulder where you're sort

238
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 2: of on the journey with them, and they'll feel much

239
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,320
Speaker 2: more comfortable and you'll probably get a much more in

240
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 2: depth conversation than straight across the table and very intense.

241
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 1: Donald, I love the acronym when you talk about listening.

242
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 1: There's something that I always say to parents that is,

243
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 1: you want to take the ride, not the wheel. Don't

244
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,559
Speaker 1: take over. And the other thing that really stood out

245
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 1: to me is the acknowledgment that it hurts that line,

246
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,840
Speaker 1: why don't you just coupl over someone else. It's like

247
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: parents have forgotten that playground dynamics don't really allow for that.

248
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 1: But here's my question for you. I reckon there'll be

249
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,640
Speaker 1: a lot of parents who will listening to this conversation

250
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 1: and thinking themselves, I've done it. I've done all of this.

251
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: I've had so many tear field conversations with my kids

252
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: where I've listened, I've felt that hurt with them, and

253
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 1: we've talked about the pain. We've come up with different options.

254
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,600
Speaker 1: We've tried to organize play dates. We've done this, that

255
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,840
Speaker 1: and the other. We've even intervened with the school and

256
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 1: asked them to help. I've had them come back to

257
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,440
Speaker 1: me with all the encouragement of the world, knowing that

258
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 1: they're safe to talk to me if it comes up again,

259
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 1: and it just keeps happening. We are in a toxic

260
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,720
Speaker 1: mess when it comes to bullying in my child. What

261
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 1: hope can you offer there? How do we help that

262
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,319
Speaker 1: parent who just feels like escalating at the school hasn't worked.

263
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,000
Speaker 1: And all the conversations that they've had walking up and

264
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,640
Speaker 1: down the beach or down to the park, or up

265
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 1: and down the street, or just in the bedroom and

266
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 1: living room, it hasn't gone anywhere.

267
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,280
Speaker 2: And that's always a challenge with bullying because it is

268
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,200
Speaker 2: so complex, and as we've talked about, you know, in

269
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 2: this podcast and the previous one, you know, there are

270
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 2: so many elements that affect that, but there are some

271
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,839
Speaker 2: actions parents can take in addition to all that. When

272
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,719
Speaker 2: you reach that moment you peo, well what else can

273
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,559
Speaker 2: I do here? We know that the incident that's occurring

274
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 2: right now is awful and we need to help our

275
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,679
Speaker 2: children get through that as best we can. But as

276
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 2: you used in your example justin you know, sometimes it

277
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 2: takes a bit of time to build the strength back

278
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 2: up in your children to give them the skills. And

279
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 2: the research around social and emotional skill development and its

280
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,319
Speaker 2: impact on all outcomes for children, the academic outcomes, well

281
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 2: being outcomes, but particularly the bullying outcomes. So give me

282
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 2: practice in how I deal with a situation where I

283
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 2: feel really anxious. So it's something known as social inoculation theory,

284
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 2: and it says, give me practice, set up little scenarios

285
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 2: where I get practicing coming up with the right words,

286
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 2: almost like a little literacy, a little bag of ideas

287
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 2: about what I can say when I'm in this situation again,

288
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 2: what I can do that will help me get out

289
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: of a bit more easily than I did last time,

290
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 2: And talk to children about It's about progress. I might

291
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 2: start playing a sport and not be very good at

292
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,120
Speaker 2: it when I start, but if I practice and I

293
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 2: go away and build skill, then I'm better at that

294
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 2: sport each time.

295
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 3: And these social emotional learning skills are skills. And there's

296
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 3: lots of good.

297
00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 2: Resource online and no doubt you'll post some in that

298
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 2: you put out on this podcast, but really great one

299
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 2: on one practices for children to develop skills like being

300
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 2: self aware? What are my triggers when that's happening?

301
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 3: What do I do? What are things that can't be down?

302
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 3: Do I go for a walk? Do I read?

303
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 2: Do I talk to somebody when I'm in a conflict situation?

304
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: What are the ways that I can diffuse that conflict

305
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 2: and get away and know and practice those that I

306
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 2: can use them much more effectively. How do I support

307
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 2: my friends? Because bystanders, that witness who steps up for

308
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 2: other people is much more likely to protected if somebody

309
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 2: then targets them. So practicing those skills are critical to

310
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 2: really helping get through that situation as best we can,

311
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,520
Speaker 2: and that but empowering our children so that they have

312
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 2: a resource to draw on.

313
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 1: Next time, I have a provocation to run by you,

314
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: and I still don't quite know where I sit with it.

315
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: My provocation is this, when it comes to the idea

316
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: of changing schools, one of the difficulties that you have

317
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 1: is that you take yourself with you when you go.

318
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 1: And so if you have those differences, if you have

319
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 1: those vulnerabilities where you are more likely to be bullied,

320
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 1: the likelihood is that wherever you go, it may still happen. Now,

321
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: I know that there are many stories that people will

322
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,880
Speaker 1: share where they've moved schools and it's made all the difference.

323
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: So I'm really tentative here. Maybe it is just a

324
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 1: case by case thing. But for those parents who are

325
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 1: desperate and thinking I've I've got to send the kids

326
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 1: to a different school. What's your advice.

327
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 2: It's always an option, of course, and it sometimes can

328
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 2: be the issue that diffuses if it's a particular subgroup

329
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 2: of children, and maybe it's a cohort.

330
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 3: Sometimes we just get a cohort of.

331
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 2: Young people moving through the school that are just really

332
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 2: poorly behaved, and taking your children out of that cohort

333
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 2: can break break that cycle. But we need to be

334
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 2: mindful that cyberbullying means that some children have followed the

335
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 2: bullying follows them to wherever they go. So I know

336
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about cyberbullying and what parents can do

337
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 2: to really help their children with that. But as children

338
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 2: move to a new school, that new school needs to

339
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 2: be very aware of what happened in the previous school.

340
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 2: And there are actions that schools will take. I'll call

341
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 2: them Tier two actions, so kind of early intervention stuff,

342
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,919
Speaker 2: extra things that they can do with that student, like

343
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,120
Speaker 2: helping them to integrate into clubs, helping them to make

344
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,480
Speaker 2: friends much more quickly so that they have all those

345
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 2: protective factors around them, engauge them in activities, and schools

346
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,400
Speaker 2: are really good at this. We just need to make

347
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 2: sure they're aware, and sometimes we don't tell the next

348
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,439
Speaker 2: school all the details, and that may put your children

349
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 2: at a disadvantage because schools do help and do want

350
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 2: to help.

351
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,440
Speaker 1: Donna, I feel like stopping the conversation now is such

352
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 1: an injustice. I think we need about seventeen more hours,

353
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 1: maybe seventeen more days. But can I thank you so

354
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 1: much for being so generous and so helpful with what

355
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 1: you've shared today.

356
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, that's such a privilege.

357
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,199
Speaker 1: Professor Donacross, an emeritus professor at the University of Western

358
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,160
Speaker 1: Australia and the New South Wales Chief Behavior Advisor, will

359
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 1: link to some of Donna's resources and a whole lot

360
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: more in our show notes. The Happy Families podcast is

361
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media, Mimhammond's supports with

362
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: admin and research help. If you'd like more info and

363
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: more resources, we will link to a whole range of

364
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 1: Donna's material and a whole lot more about how to

365
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 1: deal with and respond to bullying, and you can also

366
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 1: visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au