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Speaker 1: You know, I sleep better at night when I know

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Speaker 1: the day ahead of me is planned well, and so

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Speaker 1: I try really hard at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: to think about what the next day is going to

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Speaker 1: look like. Even as a little girl, I had to

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Speaker 1: put my clothes out the night before, and so between

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Speaker 1: you know, men, you're planning for the family and clothing planning,

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Speaker 1: and then planning your day. I'm pretty ready for attack

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Speaker 1: by the time I hit morning.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm

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Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest

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Speaker 2: today is Pamela Mayer. You might know Pamela from her

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Speaker 2: very famous TED talk about how to Spot a Liar,

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Speaker 2: which has been viewed by twenty million people. She also

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Speaker 2: wrote the best selling book Live Spotting, Proven Techniques to

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Speaker 2: Detect and Pamela is also the founder and CEO of Calibrate,

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Speaker 2: a leading training company that teaches people how.

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Speaker 3: To spot lies now.

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Speaker 2: Pamela is someone who thinks a lot about how to

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Speaker 2: get the most out of each day. And one of

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Speaker 2: the things I like most in this chat is hearing

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Speaker 2: about her rather counterintuitive strategy for time management, which I'm

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Speaker 2: now trying to apply in my own life. Over to

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Speaker 2: Pamela to find out about how she works. Pamela, welcome

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Speaker 2: to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, happy to be here now.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited to be chatting to you and understanding more

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Speaker 2: about how you work. And I'd love to start with

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Speaker 2: your mornings. And I'm wondering what does the typical morning look.

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Speaker 1: Like for you?

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Speaker 2: Like, do you have any sort of rituals or habits

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Speaker 2: that just set you up for a good day.

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Speaker 1: Well, I do, although I'm not crazy about doing exactly

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Speaker 1: the same thing. Ever, I'm kind of like moments of

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Speaker 1: joy and moments of surprise. And so I have a

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Speaker 1: morning I like the most, And most mornings are like this,

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Speaker 1: but not always, which is that I really get up

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Speaker 1: ahead of my family and like to have that quiet

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Speaker 1: you know, the sun's not quite up yet, it's dark

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen. Our papers are delivered very early. I

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Speaker 1: read four newspapers in the morning, drink my coffee, and

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Speaker 1: just have that time to do the reading that I

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Speaker 1: never get to do. The news is really a huge

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Speaker 1: fascination for me and something I follow really closely. And

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Speaker 1: so I just read.

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Speaker 2: Wow, and like, how early are you getting up before

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Speaker 2: your family? What time does that look like?

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Speaker 1: It's like five point thirty five forty five something like that.

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Speaker 3: And what are your four go to newspapers in the morning?

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Speaker 1: So h New York Times, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Washington, DC based, so Washington Post as well.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, love it, love it. Yeah, I love the idea

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Speaker 2: of kind of being awake before the family. I do

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Speaker 2: an almost identical routine minus the papers.

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Speaker 3: And what happens like when when the family's all.

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Speaker 2: Set up and they've gone off to their day, what

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Speaker 2: happens then, Like are you driving to the office?

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Speaker 3: Are you working from home?

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Speaker 2: Like what are those sort of first few minutes in

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Speaker 2: front of the computer or whatever you're doing when work

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Speaker 2: starts so to speak for the day.

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Speaker 1: So I usually, you know, I have a child, so

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Speaker 1: take her to school and then and I also have

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Speaker 1: a dog sometimes to the dog, to school with the

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Speaker 1: dog and to the dog park and then home and

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Speaker 1: then change clothes and then to the office. It kind

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Speaker 1: of depends on what the day you know what's going

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Speaker 1: on with the day. I have an office, I go

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Speaker 1: to the office, and you know, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that that I find really helps is I'm usually I

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Speaker 1: prepare my day the night before, so when I approach

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Speaker 1: the day, I usually have like a little index card

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Speaker 1: where I know exactly what I'm going to be doing,

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Speaker 1: what the priorities are and schedule. And I try really

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Speaker 1: hard to you know, I sleep better at night when

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Speaker 1: I know the day ahead of me is planned well,

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Speaker 1: and so I try really hard at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day to think about what the next day is

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Speaker 1: going to look like. And I was trained in, you know,

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Speaker 1: time management years ago when I was a producer at

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Speaker 1: Electronic Arts. They put us all through time management training

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Speaker 1: as part of the kind of corporate benefits. And I

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Speaker 1: still do this day use a lot of those techniques

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Speaker 1: that I was trained then. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: they were emphatic about was, you know, you have to

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Speaker 1: plan your day the night the night before so that

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Speaker 1: you can attack the day. And the combination of that

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Speaker 1: plus my mother growing up always had me put my

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Speaker 1: clothes out. Even as a little girl, I had to

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Speaker 1: put my clothes out the night before, and so between

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Speaker 1: you know, menu planning for the family and clothing planning,

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Speaker 1: and then planning your day. I'm pretty ready for attack

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Speaker 1: by the time I hit morning. Not always, not always,

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Speaker 1: but as much as possible.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome.

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Speaker 2: And so when you're writing the plan for the next day,

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Speaker 2: is that something like when does that happen?

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Speaker 3: And what does that look like?

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Speaker 2: Like you're writing on like is it a big like

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Speaker 2: to do list, for example, or is it a schedule

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Speaker 2: to tell me, like, you know exactly what time of

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Speaker 2: the day are you writing this, and you know, how

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Speaker 2: does that work?

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Speaker 1: I love pencil and paper, So I don't do this

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Speaker 1: online or on my I don't make use of you know,

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Speaker 1: on my iPhone or whatever. I don't make use of

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Speaker 1: the programs there for time management or for planning or

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Speaker 1: schedule or anything. This is all like pencil and paper

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But I have a running to do list.

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Speaker 1: It's several columns, you know, there's a column for personal,

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Speaker 1: column for kind of family stuff, and then multiple columns

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Speaker 1: for the different projects I'm doing at work, and that

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Speaker 1: to do list gets updated over the weekend. And then

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Speaker 1: from that to do list, which is on a big

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Speaker 1: yellow pad, I extract in I have an index card,

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Speaker 1: and I make the priorities for the next day from

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Speaker 1: that list. So the list is sort of a weekly

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Speaker 1: list that I carry around with me, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like my base list of everything I have to

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Speaker 1: get done in the world. And it's a yellow pad

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of notes behind it. And then

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Speaker 1: the index card, I just create the equivalent of something

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Speaker 1: I can put in my pocket and carry around with

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Speaker 1: me so that you know, as I'm going from meeting

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Speaker 1: to meeting, I know I can remember what I need

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Speaker 1: to do, and I add things to that index card.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like my little my little card that

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Speaker 1: I kind of write additional to dos as they come

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Speaker 1: up with on and.

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Speaker 2: Are you're then crossing off to do is on that

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Speaker 2: index cattle through the day as well.

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Speaker 1: Trying.

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Speaker 3: Oh excellent, And I.

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Speaker 1: Mean i'm traveling, the index card is totally different. The

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Speaker 1: index card is like a typed schedule because you know,

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Speaker 1: when I'm traveling and I have multiple meetings and agendas

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Speaker 1: and itinerary and fly it all goes. You know, I

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Speaker 1: have my office. We put together a whole schedule so

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Speaker 1: that I don't you know, get lost in meetings that

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Speaker 1: take all day when I need to be somewhere the

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Speaker 1: next hour, and so I will still write notes all

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Speaker 1: over that, but I keep a more formalized schedule that time.

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Speaker 3: During that time excellent.

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Speaker 2: I'm intrigued about this time management course from your time

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Speaker 2: and Electronic arts. What are like some other things that

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Speaker 2: you found incredibly valuable and have stuck to this day.

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Speaker 1: I don't think this came from the time management course.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things that I do that is

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Speaker 1: kind of counterintuitive in terms of time management is I

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Speaker 1: actually make a lot of phone calls. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people feel that email and texting is much more direct

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Speaker 1: and you can get something done without all the cushion

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Speaker 1: of the you know, the niceties of asking how you

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Speaker 1: are and how is your day, and how are your

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Speaker 1: kids and what's going on, and then let me just

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Speaker 1: get to it. They think it takes up a lot

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Speaker 1: of time, but I actually find that for the core

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Speaker 1: relationships that are really important to me in business as

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Speaker 1: well as personally, I just get on the phone. I'm

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Speaker 1: just one of the last holdouts on the telephone, and

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Speaker 1: I think over time it's more efficient. In the short run,

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Speaker 1: it's less efficient because you do spend more time on

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Speaker 1: the phone than you were just shooting somebody a text.

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Speaker 1: But over time, those relationships are built more with human contact.

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Speaker 1: I was just on the phone today with a lobbyist

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Speaker 1: I'm working with on some policy issues here in Washington

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Speaker 1: and texted him and said, give me a call. I

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Speaker 1: want to tell you something, and he'd called me right back,

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Speaker 1: and he knows I'm like one of the few people

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Speaker 1: he works with it just calls. So I find that

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Speaker 1: that's a counterintuitive approach to time management. Over the long,

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Speaker 1: long haul, it will serve you better.

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Speaker 3: I like that a lot.

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Speaker 2: I think I could probably do with taking a leaf

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Speaker 2: out of your book there. I think you know, emails

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Speaker 2: can just be so time consuming with all the back

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Speaker 2: and forth that goes on. You think you're being efficient

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Speaker 2: in the long run, You're possibly not when you're in

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Speaker 2: the office because you're leading a company. How how do

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Speaker 2: you stay focused when when you're trying to you know,

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Speaker 2: do some like sort of deep focused work. What techniques

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Speaker 2: do you have for just getting rid of all the

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Speaker 2: distractions that can be in an office, whether they're online

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Speaker 2: or offline distractions?

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a couple that could be that are odd,

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Speaker 1: but they're mine. So the first is a kind of

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Speaker 1: I call it the burst method. I kind of do

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Speaker 1: bursts of energy. I can't sit for hours on end

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Speaker 1: focusing on something. I do it in bursts. And I

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Speaker 1: do wear headphones a lot. I think headphones keep me

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Speaker 1: a lot more focused, which is not good because people

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Speaker 1: people feel that that's rude. You know, if you're actually

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Speaker 1: working with a team and you're trying to motivate people

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Speaker 1: and you've got headphones on a lot, it doesn't signal

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Speaker 1: that you're particularly available. So I know that it's not

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Speaker 1: socially necessarily that acceptable in an office environment, but it

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Speaker 1: does help me. I do a lot of writing and

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Speaker 1: a lot of research, and so when I'm in that mode,

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Speaker 1: I really need to have those headphones on. It keeps

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Speaker 1: me from being distracted. The other thing that I do

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Speaker 1: is I this is a little bit of a glimpse

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Speaker 1: into my crazy internal monologue, but I do promise myself

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Speaker 1: different rewards for different deep bursts of energy that I

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Speaker 1: expend in different ways in my life. So if I

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Speaker 1: have something I need to write, which could be really

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Speaker 1: laborious and difficult, in order to set myself the deadline,

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Speaker 1: I promise myself I'm going to go watch a movie

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day or something. I give

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Speaker 1: myself some kind of a treat at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day. I did this for years with exercise too.

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Speaker 1: If I exercise five days solid, then you know, I

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Speaker 1: get myself a massage on the sixth day. And I

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Speaker 1: do this when I'm traveling as well. When I'm doing

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Speaker 1: very very intense training, which is three days on my

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Speaker 1: feet for three days in a row, you know, eight

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Speaker 1: hours a day, I will promise myself that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go to the best restaurant in that town as

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Speaker 1: a reward at the end of it. And so same

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Speaker 1: thing on airplanes. I will load up the iPad with

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Speaker 1: something I really want to binge watch on the airplane,

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Speaker 1: but I know I have a project and I have

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Speaker 1: to work, so I'll get the work done. But I

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Speaker 1: know I have that you know, episode of Handmaid's Tale

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is everybody's binge watching at the time

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Speaker 1: to look forward to. And so I think bursts of energy,

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Speaker 1: headphones and other ways to stay focused and then providing

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Speaker 1: oneself with little rewards and treats. That's what works for me.

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Speaker 3: With your bursts.

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Speaker 2: How long does a typical burst go for it.

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Speaker 1: It totally depends. I could good for days, It could

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Speaker 1: good for days, or could go it could be a microburst,

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Speaker 1: you know, a couple hours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: Some are long term goals and some are more like

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Speaker 1: little projects that you're doing during the day. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people say they should, you know, like you should

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Speaker 1: get up and walk around and get fresh air. I

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Speaker 1: find that if I'm on a roll, I just keep

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Speaker 1: it going. I don't I don't care how much time

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Speaker 1: has gone by. But then when I'm done, I get

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Speaker 1: myself out of the office environment. So I don't like

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Speaker 1: set a timer or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: I like that.

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Speaker 2: Wow, and a several day burst that sounds intense, like

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Speaker 2: what are you doing to I guess keep energy levels up?

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Speaker 2: If you are in a seven day burst, when you're

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Speaker 2: trying to I assume hit some kind of a deadline

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Speaker 2: or accomplish some some kind of project, Like how how

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Speaker 2: do you maintain energy levels?

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Speaker 1: So I actually I think it comes from curiosity more

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Speaker 1: than anything. I mean, I think that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: you can do physically to maintain your energy level. You

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Speaker 1: can eat healthy, and you can exercise, and you can

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Speaker 1: walk around, and you can start and stop and all that,

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Speaker 1: and I do. We have a treadmill at my home,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of times I'll start the day

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Speaker 1: or I'll end the day on the treadmill. But I

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Speaker 1: think what really drives me when I'm working on a

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Speaker 1: hard project, like I'm putting, you know, a really intense

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Speaker 1: report together for a client, or I'm designing our custom

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Speaker 1: designing training for a client. It's very laborious, the research

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Speaker 1: that we do to make sure that it's entertaining and

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Speaker 1: so forth. What drives me when I'm going through that

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Speaker 1: is I remind myself is what is interesting about this?

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Speaker 1: Why am I doing you know, really, what's my purpose

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Speaker 1: in doing this? And what is really truly captivating my curiosity?

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Speaker 1: And I think you have to keep reminding yourself of

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Speaker 1: that because sometimes, you know, the granular work that one

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Speaker 1: does in any job can be incredibly frustrating or challenging

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Speaker 1: or challenging to your energy. But if you remember why

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Speaker 1: you're doing it, what your purpose is, and what's interesting

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Speaker 1: about it, and you really follow those interests, think it

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Speaker 1: can help you through them fantastic.

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Speaker 2: How I'm curious as to how you prioritize what you

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Speaker 2: say yes and what you say no. To, because I

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Speaker 2: imagine that you're probably inundated with different kinds of requests,

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Speaker 2: So what like how do you think about like what

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Speaker 2: you do inevitably say yes to and what you decline.

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Speaker 1: So in my office, we work on a quarterly system,

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Speaker 1: and we actually set goals for each quarter, so we

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Speaker 1: have a clear set of what our goals are and

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Speaker 1: the priorities really fall behind those goals. So we set

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Speaker 1: them up there on a whiteboard. You know, I can

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Speaker 1: see what they are. I usually have one for myself

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Speaker 1: that's personal as well, and I try really hard to

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Speaker 1: let that drive decision making, with a lot of room

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Speaker 1: for improvise when something just sounds like it's going to

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Speaker 1: be fun, or someone just sounds like they're going to

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Speaker 1: be interesting to work. You know, A real believer in

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Speaker 1: not being so rigid that you lose out on the fun.

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Speaker 2: H And do you like do you sort of trust

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Speaker 2: your gut with that, like when you're getting requests like

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Speaker 2: or how how do you judge that?

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Speaker 1: How do I judge what's going to be fun? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Like what's going to be worth kind of deviating from

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Speaker 2: the quarterly goals.

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Speaker 1: It's usually either a person I really want to work with,

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Speaker 1: or it's material that I really want to learn or

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Speaker 1: go deeper into. Its usually one or the other, usually

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Speaker 1: or possibly both.

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Speaker 2: M And I'm curious, So you mentioned that, like you'll

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Speaker 2: you'll opt for phone rather than email. But I'm curious

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Speaker 2: what is your approach to email? Like are you someone

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Speaker 2: that's got email open all day or you check it

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Speaker 2: at certain times of the day, Like, what's what's your approach.

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Speaker 3: To managing your inbox?

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Speaker 1: So I'm on email a lot, I'm not. I'm not

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Speaker 1: opposed to email at all. I love email. I just

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Speaker 1: try when it's important or it's a delicate conversation or

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Speaker 1: it's something that's come up that really needs to be

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Speaker 1: exploded in a more substantive way, to do it in person,

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Speaker 1: because I think it makes such a difference. I am

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Speaker 1: pretty much always trying to get to inbox zero. I

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Speaker 1: do not have a you know, I try really hard

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Speaker 1: to respond very very quickly when requests come in. I

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Speaker 1: have an assistant that helps with that as well, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we're both on it quite substantially. I try

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Speaker 1: very hard when I construct emails, not like to end

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Speaker 1: a dialogue when it needs to be ended, not to

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Speaker 1: keep someone engaged and take up their time. You know,

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Speaker 1: I try not to see see people that don't need

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Speaker 1: to be ce seed. I try not to respond to

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Speaker 1: a chain of email on one subject with a completely

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Speaker 1: different subject, so that when you open it up, the

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Speaker 1: subject line bears no resemblance to what someone is actually asking.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I try to basically have good, clean email etiquette,

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Speaker 1: as we say, but I can't say that I'm perfect

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Speaker 1: at that at all. I try not to lose my

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Speaker 1: temper and write in all caps with vibe excitation points

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Speaker 1: when something pisses me of.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I love that, but no happen.

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Speaker 2: That sounds very, very kind of clean and logical. I

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Speaker 2: wish everyone applied those rules to email. I think it

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Speaker 2: would make it a lot quicker.

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Speaker 1: Well, I try, and I'm certainly not perfect of it.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious when you said that you do quite a

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Speaker 2: lot of writing, and I've read your writing, which I

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Speaker 2: like very much. What do you approach writing which I

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Speaker 2: guess you know many would see as creative work, although

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Speaker 2: arguably it's also quite analytical as well, with the kind

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Speaker 2: of writing that you do like, do you approach creative.

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Speaker 3: Work in a different why ad or.

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Speaker 2: Is it still sort of in that kind of focused

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Speaker 2: firsty kind of way that you were talking about before.

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Speaker 1: Well, writing you know, backgrounders or reports or investigative analysis

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Speaker 1: for a client is very different than writing, for example,

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Speaker 1: a book or an op ed. And so if you're

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Speaker 1: doing an editorial or if I'm doing like some kind

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Speaker 1: of uh, you know, blog post, in some ways that

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Speaker 1: requires much more solitude for me than if I'm doing

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Speaker 1: kind of more of my business work, where I'm just

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Speaker 1: writing something essentially trying to write a good memo or

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Speaker 1: a good summary for a client. So those are two

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Speaker 1: very different things. I think the creative work is more

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Speaker 1: challenging and more satisfying at the same time. More challenging,

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Speaker 1: and that you know you is kind of a kind

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Speaker 1: of more isolation. I think, to think through and make

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Speaker 1: sure the words are chosen much more carefully. Memos analytic work,

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Speaker 1: I tend to find can be done more in kind

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Speaker 1: of outline form, and the language doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: exactly perfect, just of course you want it to be

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Speaker 1: very readable and concise, but it's it's a different it's

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Speaker 1: more of a science and less of an art.

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Speaker 2: So with like writing an op ed, say like would

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Speaker 2: would you you know still be in the office with

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Speaker 2: the headphones on? Or have you got other tactics that

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Speaker 2: you use when when you are working on like a

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Speaker 2: piece that, as you say, requires some more solitude.

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Speaker 1: No, sometimes I will print and then go to Starbucks

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Speaker 1: and edit by hand, or you know, I'll be in

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Speaker 1: my home office late at night, or it depends some times.

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Speaker 1: On an airplane.

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Speaker 2: Mmmmm yeah, I find airplanes are great for creative work

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Speaker 2: because no one is interrupting you exactly.

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Speaker 1: And do you have the white noise of the engine? Yes?

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Speaker 1: You on?

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Speaker 2: Is that why you like Starbucks for editing because of

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Speaker 2: the white noise of the cafe?

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Speaker 1: No? Actually, I don't like the noise of the cafe.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I could give you a detailed list of

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Speaker 1: all the public spaces one can go to in Washington,

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Speaker 1: DC to do editing that do or don't have musaic

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Speaker 1: in the background.

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Speaker 3: So I love it. What's like, what's a couple of

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Speaker 3: your favorite places?

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Speaker 1: And you're better off in a hotel restaurant than you

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Speaker 1: are a restaurant where they have music going all the time.

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Speaker 3: It depends, definitely, definitely.

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Speaker 2: And do you have any any tricks for when you've

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Speaker 2: got writer's block? When the screen is blank and you've

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Speaker 2: got a deadline, like, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: I'm lucky. I'm married to a really create of ex

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Speaker 1: journalist and so I talked to him. Very lucky. He's

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Speaker 1: a great partner. So I'll be like, what do you

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Speaker 1: think of this idea? And he'll just start riffing with

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Speaker 1: me and he's great, and so that's usually the most topful.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome. I love it.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 3: To kind of finish out the show.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to ask you a few kind of quick

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Speaker 2: questions about what kind of information are you consuming? Because

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Speaker 2: I think a thing that so many people struggle with

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Speaker 2: is that there's so much information out there. There's so

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Speaker 2: many books, podcasts, articles, it's hard to know what to consume.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious at the moment what podcasts are you

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Speaker 2: currently listening to and loving.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a big podcast consumer, you know what I do?

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Speaker 1: Although I do listen to a lot of the New

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Speaker 1: York Times podcasts. I mean, I'm MPR. I listened to

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Speaker 1: on on podcasts. But what I do is I have

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Speaker 1: on my electronic device, I have a folder called news

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Speaker 1: and it's not just news, but it's basically and I

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Speaker 1: put every single source that I love to listen to

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Speaker 1: into that folder and then I just graze that folder

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Speaker 1: every day. I'm kind of going through and whether it's

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Speaker 1: a website or a podcast, and I just graze through

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Speaker 1: them all cool, I like, So I often will go

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'll go from like I'm a big fan,

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Speaker 1: for example, of the life Hacker websites. It's one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite websites. I've always loved it. I'll go from

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Speaker 1: that to the Wall Street Journal, to the Economists to

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Speaker 1: you know, ah, you know, a cooking website, all within

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Speaker 1: five minutes, just because you know, my mind will want

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Speaker 1: to absorb all of it at once in a way,

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Speaker 1: and so but I but I do sit down for

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of like a full hour usually in

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Speaker 1: the morning, and I just go through everything. So I'll

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Speaker 1: sit all at once, but I'll be grazing all over

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Speaker 1: the place.

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Speaker 3: Love it, love it. What is a great book that

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Speaker 3: you've read recently?

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Speaker 1: I'm just looking forward. I'm in my office right now

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Speaker 1: and see if I can find it. Is this. It's

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Speaker 1: an interesting book called the Opposite of Hate by Sally Cohne,

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Speaker 1: A field guide to repairing our Humanity. Very interesting book.

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Speaker 3: Mmmm.

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Speaker 2: What was what was one of your biggest takeouts from it.

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Speaker 1: It's just a very interesting look at, you know, where

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00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: hate comes from and what we can do about it,

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00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: and you know, just looking at so many of the

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00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: problems we have in our world coming from something that

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00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: we often don't think about or talk about itself, which

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00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: is hating. You know, what hating has, what hating means,

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00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: and how some hating coming comes actually from belonging, and

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00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: how there's unconscious hate in the world as well that

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00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: we're not aware of, and what happens when hate almost

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00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: becomes pandemic. It's just an interesting.

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Speaker 2: Book, fantastic And finally, what's in a newsletter that you

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00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: subscribe to that you actually look forward to receiving.

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00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: The Association of Certified Fraud Examiner Examiners does a great

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00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: fraud newsletter and they pull stories that really have not

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00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: hit the news yet that are quite interesting, profiles of

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00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: whistleblowers and scams, and you know, just the scope of

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00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: different fraudulent you know, fraudulent sectors. So for example, they

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00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: just did something on a huge case on medicare fraud

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00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: and you know, medical scams, and it's just interesting that

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00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: to read, uh, interesting to me, may not be interesting

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00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: to most of the people who listen to your podcast. But

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00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: interesting to me to go deep into different different ways

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00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: in which fraud can infect our world.

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Speaker 2: I think that that sounds fascinating. And look, finally, Pamela,

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00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: if people want to know more about you, read your things.

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00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 3: Where where can people find you?

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00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: So they can watch my ted talk on how to

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00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: spout a liar? They can go to my blog www

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00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: dot live sparting dot com. They can read my book,

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00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: which is a book on life sparting as well, or

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00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: they can go to my corporate website which is called

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00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: Calibrate c A L I B R A T E.

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00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: Dash Inc i NC dot com and they can see

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00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: what our businesses doing.

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00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: Fantastic love it. Oh, Pamela, it's been so awesome talking

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Speaker 2: to you. Thank you so much for being on the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, it's been a delight.

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Speaker 3: Hey there, that's it for today's episode.

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00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: If you liked it, there are plenty of others that

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00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: you might also enjoy, such as my chat with Matt Mullenwig,

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00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: co founder of WordPress, where we talk about how he

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00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 2: organizes his phone to create healthy habits, and my conversation

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00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: with Adam Grant where we talk about the two things

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00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: he does at the start of every week to make

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00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: sure he stays on track with what really matters. Finally,

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00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: it's great getting feedback from listeners such as yourself, so

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00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: feel free to give this podcast a review in iTunes

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00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you

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00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: like this episode, make sure you hit the subscribe button

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00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: so you can be alerted when new episodes are released.

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00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 3: See you next time.