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Speaker 1: As we know, Parliament is indeed going to be rescheduled. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's been rescheduled. It is sitting today on urgency. We

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Speaker 1: just heard from the Speaker of the Northern Territories Legislative Assembly,

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Speaker 1: Robin Lamley, that the last time this happened was about

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Speaker 1: five years ago through the COVID emergency. Joining me on

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Speaker 1: the line is the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 1: Lea fanocchi Airo. Good morning, Chief Minister.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and good morning to your.

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Speaker 1: Listener, Chief Minister. Some further detail now since we last

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Speaker 1: spoke on Monday on exactly what legislation is going to

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Speaker 1: be amended, can you talk our listeners through that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, So today at ten o'clock Parliament has been

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Speaker 2: recalled and we're just going to have an entire day

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Speaker 2: of parliament based around this bill. There'll be no other

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Speaker 2: parliamentary business. It won't be a normal sitting day. It's

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Speaker 2: an emergency day to urgently pass this bill. The details

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Speaker 2: of the bill are now very clear and we've briefed

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Speaker 2: Labor and the Independent members late yesterday afternoon. And so

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Speaker 2: how it will work is we've looked to the New

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Speaker 2: South Wales model and made it stronger than that. In

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Speaker 2: New South Wales they have an overarching test of community

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Speaker 2: safety when considering bail. What we've done is taken that

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Speaker 2: and made it two additional tests in our system. So

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Speaker 2: currently judges have to go through a long list of

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Speaker 2: things they consider under the Bail Act, and what we've

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Speaker 2: done is inserted into that a community safety test around

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Speaker 2: whether or not there is a risk to the community

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Speaker 2: if a person is bailed, and then a second test,

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Speaker 2: which is where the decision maker, which might be the courts,

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Speaker 2: or it might be a judge, or it might be police,

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Speaker 2: have to satisfy themselves with a high degree of confidence

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Speaker 2: that the person they are considering vaal for will not

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Speaker 2: go on to commit a prescribed offense or another serious

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Speaker 2: offense or endanger the community, which is a very high threshold.

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Speaker 2: That is not only stronger than New South Wales because

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Speaker 2: it's two additional tests, but our list of prescribed defenses

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Speaker 2: is in excess of two hundred different crimes, so it's

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Speaker 2: much longer. And also in New South Wales this community

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Speaker 2: safety test only applies to youths. We are making it

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Speaker 2: apply to both youths and adults. And on top of that, Katie,

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Speaker 2: and I've talked to you about it over the last

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks where we've been doing our rewrite of

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Speaker 2: the Use Justice Act and we were looking at removing

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Speaker 2: the principle of detention as last resort for young people.

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Speaker 2: We will remove that today as well, on top of

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Speaker 2: this additional double community safety test.

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Speaker 1: Do you know if the opposition is going to support

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Speaker 1: that aspect of this with the youths.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Officially. My understanding is they have indicated

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Speaker 2: they will, and we're unclear about the Crossbench Chief Minister.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, this all seems like, you know, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of sense in the sense that that community safety test.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've already had people message through this morning

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Speaker 1: saying Katie one in particular, set, I'm stupefied that that's

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Speaker 1: not already part of the legislation. But you know, nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: this is a good thing that this is changing. I

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Speaker 1: think the community's expectation is that it does. But what

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Speaker 1: is going to stop a judge from still releasing somebody

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Speaker 1: on bail? I mean, is there any recourse whatsoever if

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Speaker 1: it is still determined, if the judge considers everything and

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Speaker 1: says all right, well it does seem as though this

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Speaker 1: person is going to be not a risk to the community,

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Speaker 1: yet they do go out and defend what's the recourse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is no recourse. But what this does is

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Speaker 2: not just mean that it's our government that has community

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Speaker 2: safety as its top priority. It means that the courts

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Speaker 2: now have that priority as well. So it is different.

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Speaker 2: And I think when we saw the bail example happen

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Speaker 2: with the large Manu case, obviously the Chief Justice put

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Speaker 2: out his four page letter which highlighted this option, and

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Speaker 2: we've taken it up. It was something we were looking

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Speaker 2: at straight away as part of that bigger rewrite, but

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Speaker 2: we've urgently brought it forward to today to make it

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Speaker 2: abundantly clear, absolutely crystal crystal clear. The community safety is

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Speaker 2: a very very important consideration and ultimately people can still

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Speaker 2: be bailed under this system, but it requires then an

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Speaker 2: absolute conscious decision making of the decision maker around whether

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Speaker 2: or not there is an ongoing risk to the community

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Speaker 2: and any risk of further offending. And so the people

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Speaker 2: who are bailed should not present a risk to the community,

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Speaker 2: in which case that's absolutely fine. Bail is you know,

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Speaker 2: you're in a position of innocent until proven guilty and

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Speaker 2: if you're not a risk to the community, then there's

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Speaker 2: no reason why the judiciary can't make those decisions. But

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Speaker 2: what we're trying to stop is obviously who have a

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Speaker 2: propensity to offend?

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, is there going to be a review of

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Speaker 1: those already on bail to ensure that there are not

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Speaker 1: other violent criminals out there putting the community at risk

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Speaker 1: that should be behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're dealing with historical issues. I mean, we've

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Speaker 2: had an entire system geared up around the right of

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Speaker 2: the offender and their traumatic experiences in life versus the

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Speaker 2: trauma of the community in being subjected to crime. So

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Speaker 2: this is a big reframe that we're doing as a

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Speaker 2: new government. But ultimately we've got corrections and police backtracking

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Speaker 2: through everyone who is on bail under Labour's laws.

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Speaker 1: So there is a review underway right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're working through doing those bail checks and

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Speaker 2: all of those things. But ultimately, people bailed under the

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Speaker 2: old system, unless they come into contact in terms of

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Speaker 2: a breach of bail or something like that, they get

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Speaker 2: to continue being on bail. So that's why that view

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Speaker 2: is important moving forward.

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Speaker 1: So let me just get this really straight for the community.

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Speaker 1: So there is a review underway into everybody that's currently

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Speaker 1: on bail. But unless they breach their bail, that will

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Speaker 1: not change. Even if they are a serious violent offender,

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Speaker 1: they'll remain on bail.

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Speaker 2: If they're on bail and they're complying with their bail

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Speaker 2: and they're not offending, yes they will continue on bail.

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Speaker 1: And do you feel comfortable with that?

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Speaker 2: Well, that is it is. It is a situation. It

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Speaker 2: is you know, they have been bailed under a previous

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Speaker 2: law and that law continues to apply to them. But

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Speaker 2: what we've done is made sure our new test applies

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Speaker 2: straight away. So for example, if they if someone breaches

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Speaker 2: their bail might be a condition of bail or something

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Speaker 2: like that, then the new test applies. If they commit

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Speaker 2: an offense and apply for bail, will the new test

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Speaker 2: will apply. If they commit in a events before our

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Speaker 2: law changes, but they say it was yesterday but they

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Speaker 2: haven't had their bail application yet, our new law will apply.

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Speaker 2: And we've also made it so that if someone is

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Speaker 2: charged or someone's matter is through the local court and

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Speaker 2: then it jumps up into the Supreme Court because of

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Speaker 2: the severity of the matter, then that will be treated

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Speaker 2: under the new test pity a fresh bail application, so

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Speaker 2: it is comprehensive and then Police and Corrections are doing

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Speaker 2: that the historical work of checking through who are currently

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Speaker 2: out on bail.

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Speaker 1: And Chief Minister, do Police and Corrections have any idea

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Speaker 1: how many people we currently have on bail?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they would. It's a substantively it's a substantial number

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Speaker 2: of people who are out on bail, you know, for many, many,

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Speaker 2: many various difference types of crime.

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Speaker 1: Is there going to be a review or another look

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Speaker 1: at as well the way in which these ankle monitoring

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Speaker 1: devices are either handed out or more because it seems

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Speaker 1: like they're not working, particularly in the cases of utes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So we've talked about this before, Katie, and it's

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Speaker 2: work we're doing as part of our processes on coming

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Speaker 2: to government is how we can strengthen electronic monitoring, get

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Speaker 2: better process communication between Corrections and police, live monitoring, all

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Speaker 2: of those different types of things because it is a

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Speaker 2: third party system, it's not a government system. So that

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Speaker 2: work is happening and it's been happening urgently, and I

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Speaker 2: think when we're nearly at a point where we can

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Speaker 2: move forward with some good change in that space. So

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Speaker 2: that is coming together, and you know, we just continue

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Speaker 2: to push. It's not just bailed. There's lots of other

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Speaker 2: areas that.

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Speaker 1: Are and I do want to ask about a few

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Speaker 1: of those. I mean, there's questions coming through. Have the

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Speaker 1: amendments been properly thought through? I mean, some people are

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Speaker 1: saying this is a knee jerk reaction after what has

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Speaker 1: been a week since the tragedy that we saw in Nightcliff.

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Speaker 2: No, so sorry, Yes, it has been well thought through.

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Speaker 2: And ultimately, if we've got to go back and change

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Speaker 2: things again, we've got the opportunity to do that in May.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately, once Justice Grant raised this issue a couple

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Speaker 2: of months ago, we've started work on it and absolutely

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Speaker 2: flagged it as like fantastic, we'll do that. So it's

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Speaker 2: been part of the mix of the rewrite of the

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Speaker 2: Youth Justice Act. I've urgently brought it forward because it's

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Speaker 2: not just the tragic death we've seen last week. There's

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Speaker 2: been a number of very serious offenses alleged to being

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Speaker 2: committed by people on bail, and so we've brought this

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Speaker 2: forward because it is the pinnacle paramount test. It overarches

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Speaker 2: all consideration.

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Speaker 1: Now in terms of in terms of the changes, so obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, judges need to be confident that there's not

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Speaker 1: a further risk to the community when it comes to

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Speaker 1: community safety. You spoke about the youth element as well,

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Speaker 1: where where you know remand is no longer a final resort,

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Speaker 1: so essentially, you know, people can be taken into detention

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Speaker 1: or detention probably is the more correct term. What do

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Speaker 1: you think this is going to mean in terms of

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Speaker 1: the number of young people that we've got then in

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Speaker 1: our youth detention facilities and how often our young people

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Speaker 1: being you know, let out to maybe stay at another

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Speaker 1: another supervised facility rather than in a corrections facility when

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Speaker 1: the community's expectation may be that they are under the

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Speaker 1: care of corrections.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we I don't know those numbers, but for example,

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Speaker 2: just the New South Wales test alone, which is that

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Speaker 2: community safety test we will put to Parliament today, that

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Speaker 2: created a thirty two percent increase in incarceration of young

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Speaker 2: people in New South Wales. So we fully expect those numbers,

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Speaker 2: if not higher, just as a result of our Bower laws.

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Speaker 2: On top of that, removing the principle of detention last resort,

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Speaker 2: just remove this concept that young people can't be dealt

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Speaker 2: with under the law like it's just again going back

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Speaker 2: to the historical issues, you know, Coronial after coronial, Royal

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Speaker 2: commission after royal commission, labor, you know, moving in a

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Speaker 2: totally different direction where no one's held responsible for their

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Speaker 2: own actions, and so to have police and the courts

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Speaker 2: having to start with a position of, well, I shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be involved in this with this young person in the

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Speaker 2: first place. By removing that, we can deal with young

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Speaker 2: people properly, and at the end of the day, we

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Speaker 2: would rather intervene in a young person's life earlier and

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Speaker 2: have the chance to put them on the right cause,

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Speaker 2: make sure they understand what they did was wrong and

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Speaker 2: give them the support they need to move forward and

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Speaker 2: be productive. Then wait until they're an adult, they continue

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Speaker 2: with their offending and they end up in an adult prison,

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Speaker 2: you know, virtually in and out for the rest of

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Speaker 2: their life.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're trying to stop, Chief Minister. How how

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Speaker 1: much room do we have in the youth prison at

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Speaker 1: the moment?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't have the numbers, but we do have

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Speaker 2: capacity there. I'm continent of that. Our prison system is

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Speaker 2: over Florench But yeah, you know, it is what it is.

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Speaker 2: There either on the street or they're in prisons.

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Speaker 1: So the re terms of like in terms of the

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Speaker 1: adult correctional facilities, we are expecting to see a massive

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Speaker 1: surge here from what I can gather in terms or

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Speaker 1: quite an I I mean, I don't know. Are you

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Speaker 1: expecting it to be a massive surge in prisoner numbers

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Speaker 1: and what are you anticipating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have a specific number, but absolutely we're

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Speaker 2: ready and expecting a huge increase in pressure. So this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, just it is what it is. There is

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Speaker 2: nothing we can do about that. We've inherited a system

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Speaker 2: that wasn't fit for purpose. So already in eight months

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Speaker 2: we've brought on more than five hundred additional beds. We've

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Speaker 2: got another one hundred imminent, and we've had thirty one

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Speaker 2: corrections officers just graduate and there's thirty three more in

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Speaker 2: the knowledge right now. We've got the G four S

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Speaker 2: staff obviously supporting that and will continue to grow those numbers.

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Speaker 2: So it is an imperfect situation. But at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, like I said, people are either on

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Speaker 2: the street or they're in prison or in a detention facility,

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Speaker 2: and Chief story right right now?

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Speaker 1: Are we in a situation though within our correctional facilities,

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Speaker 1: people aren't actually undertaking rehabilitation programs, so they're not actually

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Speaker 1: doing anything to become better people rather than better crims.

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Speaker 2: No, and I've got some great updates on that, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad you are so despite I mean, and

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Speaker 2: people are very familiar with the challenges we have in corrections.

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Speaker 2: Despite the absolute best efforts of our staff out there

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Speaker 2: doing an incredible job. We are still delivering education and

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Speaker 2: rehab and work school programs despite all of the pressure issues,

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Speaker 2: and we're having really good results. So for example, our

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Speaker 2: Rage Pro which is a six month intensive DV program,

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Speaker 2: we had forty one completions this year versus twelve under Labor,

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Speaker 2: so huge increase. We had one hundred and three completions

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Speaker 2: of a family violence program compared to ninety five under Labor.

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Speaker 2: And for educational programs, we had six hundred and seventy

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Speaker 2: one prisoners complete them compared to five hundred and fifty three.

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Speaker 2: So some really good data. And that's completion. That's not

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Speaker 2: people who you know, just signed up to it. That's

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Speaker 2: that's completions. And we'll you know, we want to really

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Speaker 2: really grow that. But we've we've got to steady the

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Speaker 2: ship and right now we're in a crisis situation that

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Speaker 2: requires a crisis response. But people can rest assure there

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Speaker 2: is rehab going on and it's getting out.

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Speaker 1: There, and Je's beinester. I know you've got to get

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Speaker 1: into Parliament in just a couple of moments. I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you. We did have a situation earlier, well

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Speaker 1: actually towards the end of last week where Larikia Nation,

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Speaker 1: their CEO, Michael Rotima, had released a statement and he

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Speaker 1: said that Larichi Nations calling on senior Aboriginal law men

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Speaker 1: and women from remote communities supported by the Northern, Central,

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Speaker 1: Tiwei and and Deliaqua Land Councils to work alongside us

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Speaker 1: in restoring community discipline and cultural authority, including returning non

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Speaker 1: permanent residents to their home communities where appropriate, and addressing

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Speaker 1: unacceptable behaviors that harm our people and our reputation. He

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Speaker 1: said he's also personally written to both yourself and the

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Speaker 1: Minister for Aboriginal Affairs in March, seeking your support for

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Speaker 1: a formal initiative that empowers their senior Aboriginal law men

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Speaker 1: and women to lead culturally appropriate responses to this growing crisis.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that also needs to be happening, Like

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Speaker 1: I totally, you know, I think at the moment, we've

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Speaker 1: got what feels like a gaping wound that needs to

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Speaker 1: be worked upon in the like right now. But then

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Speaker 1: we also have a situation where behavior does not seem

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Speaker 1: to be getting better, and you've got Aboriginal leadership stepping

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Speaker 1: forward saying you know, we want to make some impact

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Speaker 1: in this space. Is that something that you're prepared to

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Speaker 1: work with them on.

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, absolutely, Katie. And it's an important part of it.

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Speaker 2: And the root causes part is critical, and having the

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Speaker 2: buy in of Aboriginal leadership is critical as well, and

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Speaker 2: their involvement in this space. And that's all that root

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Speaker 2: causes work that is run simultaneous with the point and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Often we only get to talk about corrections, courts, police

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Speaker 2: because it's the most pressing, but equally it's why we're

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Speaker 2: taking parental responsibility really seriously by you know, having enforceable

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Speaker 2: family responsibility agreements getting kids to school, and we're having

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Speaker 2: some really good impact on families getting kids to school

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Speaker 2: because of the tough approach we've taken with parents. So

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Speaker 2: that work will continue on and we'll continue those conversations

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Speaker 2: with Larochia Nation. And you know, this is a community

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Speaker 2: problem as much as anything else. But we've all got

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Speaker 2: to make sure that there's personal responsibility and at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, people don't have to make the

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Speaker 2: decision to do the wrong thing. And that's the point

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Speaker 2: we have to get to.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister Leah Fanocchiaro. We are going to have to

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Speaker 1: leave it there. Thank you for your time. It is

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Speaker 1: much appreciated. I know our listeners appreciate the fact that

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Speaker 1: you have talked us through how this legislation is going

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Speaker 1: to change. Look, I think we all hope that it's

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Speaker 1: going to make a difference, but time will tell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and you know nothing is one hundred percent,

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Speaker 2: but this puts an extremely high threshold and make sure

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Speaker 2: that the community's safety is enshrined in the law. There's

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Speaker 2: no getting around that. If your listeners want to tune

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Speaker 2: in today, you can do that from your desktop, a

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Speaker 2: work or at home or wherever you might be. Through

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Speaker 2: the Legislative Assembly of the Northern Territory and this will

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Speaker 2: be the only thing that we go through today.

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Speaker 1: Deep Minister, thank you appreciate your time