WEBVTT - The Unanswered 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:01.760 Good. 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.440 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:08.840 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.480 It was absolutely shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:12.800 absoutely really heaving. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.080 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.880 Toime on a shallow mud bank, and it fits Roy River. Basically. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:19.599 I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.600 there are good people. I think a really important question 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.680 we need to ask is how many Indigenous prisoners in 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:26.720 Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.280 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.800 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.600 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.200 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.400 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.520 And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:52.080 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.840 Welcome to Curtain the podcast. As some of you might 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.160 have heard you strained. Federal Parliament is in the middle 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.959 of an inquiry into murdered and missing Aboriginal women and children. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.760 It's a national inquiry that seeks to understand the issue 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.759 and hopefully find answers and justice to this appalling problem. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.640 Over the last number of months, my co host Amy 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:24.920 Maguire has attended a number of inquests into murdered and 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:29.520 forcibly disappeared Aboriginal women. In the meantime, I've also been 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.360 investigating one of these cases further as the inquest filed 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.920 to provide the family with any justice or answers. So 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.320 this week we're going to discuss some of these issues. 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.720 As Coroner Stephanie Gallagher said at the end of the 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.440 hearings of the inquest of Constance, what show and I 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.400 quote the evidence is very much full of conflict and 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.400 there is very little new or useful information in there 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.680 to inform this court and the family of what actually 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:05.000 happened and to her. Immediately outside the court, close family 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.920 friend Arita Fisher said she was wild, angry and crying 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.920 for the family who just wanted answers. We can't live 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.600 without knowing what happened to her. We've had it. You 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.600 just need to tell us. Let her rest in peace now. Amy, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.200 you were there for this inquest and I just want 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:28.800 to start by asking what it was like to observe 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.720 and how it seemed speaking with the family how it 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:35.440 was for them. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.160 So I think it was very traumatic the whole process, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:46.200 because Constance was found quite a few years ago now, 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.320 but they've been waiting for answers for a very long time, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.639 and I think the general feeling was that the process, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.359 which is still ongoing, hadn't delivered any of those answers. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.600 And so, you know, when you consider the FA's five 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.880 or six years, the waiting and the waiting, the cranial 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.520 process constituted another long period of waiting, and that's what 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:11.760 it was like. Often it would be, you know, waiting 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:17.000 outside the court, waiting, you know, in the long lawn 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.880 between like the magistrates court and the coronial court, and 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.560 knowing that well, Constance has died, but this is a 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.680 coronial court, shouldn't it be in the other court, you know, 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.200 the magistrates the Supreme Court. And I think it's just 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:36.680 the inherent re traumatization of families through the failure to 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:42.000 actually see the gravity of the situation. You know, sitting 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:43.720 in there, it just felt like they were going through 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.360 they were ticking the boxes, you know, the coronial processes, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.920 ticking the boxes. The focus is not actually finding out 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.520 what happened to Constance. May watch you and who had 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.480 perpetrated the accagans constants may watch you. So I just 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.720 felt again, and this is the feeling I felt sitting 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.600 in a lot of coronial in quests, that it's just 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.400 just general apathy towards families who were there fighting for 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.560 their for their for their loved ones, and there's always 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.600 the absence of their personhood even in this process, and 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:13.880 so it's really important for the families to sit there 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.719 and resist that. But you're also taking on all of 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.840 those waves of violence, you know, hearing horrendous and traumatic 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:26.479 things that have happened. Yeah, so it's just that continual 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.440 process of revictimization, the long periods of waiting with no answers, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.520 and just that general feeling of apathy that they're not 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.000 there to actually provide justice and in that what does 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.160 justice even mean? You know? So I just I really 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.479 felt for the families through those five days, and and 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.400 the other thing is, you know, like five days isn't 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:50.080 long enough at all, and the inquest has been will 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.440 continue in December. But yeah, just seeing them have to 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.960 go through that again and again and still to come 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.279 out with no answers was really hard, I think, gone 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.240 everyone to witness it's. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:08.400 A huge amount of horrific material to have to sit 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.480 through for anyone, but it's almost unimaginable when it's your 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.880 own loved one and family member, and I can't even 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.880 imagine what they're feeling too. To be retraumatized by it all, 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.839 as you say, and then get no answers, and also 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:31.120 to watch people give testimony who clearly have more to 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.520 say and know a lot more and get away with 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:38.680 not saying anything, it does start to make you wonder 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.880 whether the process is even worth it for the family. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.360 Yeah, But like I also just wanted to say as well, 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.160 I forgot to say at the beginning, was that at 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:54.000 the very beginning, Constance's three adult children they'd actually made 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.480 this really beautiful display for their mother. So they had 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.640 all pictures of her. They had a beautiful cross that 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.560 they brought from Shabir Accunts, so Constance was from Sherburg, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.000 And they had like sand from her gravesite which they 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.039 brought into the court which signified bringing Constance in and 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.400 they really felt like she was there. And at the 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.320 beginning they gave this beautiful sort of letter to their 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.440 mother and they read it so powerfully to the court. 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.320 You know, so they were there to contest a lot 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.280 of what happens in the coronial process. But I think 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.480 the significance of that is lost by many who were 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.960 very conditioned at what this process means, you know what 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.760 I mean, and just do not see how important it 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.400 is to do that and to make sure that Constance 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.120 is always presenced. But that their presence, and it wasn't 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.480 just the children, but like Constance's brothers, you know, her 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.799 extended family just filled the chairs of the courtroom as well, 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.120 and it just made me think, you know, you had 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.000 this court room full of black fellows and on the 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.880 other side it's just all white people pretty much, you 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:55.400 know what I mean. So it's just that and a 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.120 lot of police officers and everything like that. But they 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:02.720 were just really strong in their presence for their mum 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.480 and really ensuring that she was not lost in this process. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.000 So I think that's part of it, you know, like 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:10.840 how they fight for justice even though we don't know 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:12.240 what justice means. 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.760 Yeah, I guess the way, you know, I'm just imagining 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.200 the way you describe the courtroom full of blackfellows on 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.080 one side, and then all the white lawyers and police 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.720 and officials and everything on the other and it makes 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:33.520 you question, can this all white process that you know, 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:38.400 he's constructed out of a colonial period and an ongoing 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.520 colonial project, can it ever actually deliver justice to the family. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.560 You know, as you describe, the family have done so 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:54.600 much to presence, constance, to show up through something I 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.200 think most of us couldn't sit through to hear about 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.640 what has been done to our own loved one. And 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.840 then the moment the family are no longer able to 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.320 speak and the process begins, it seems like all of 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.080 that is lost and we go into this weird formal 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:19.200 legal process that's not about anything but just rubber stamping 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.440 and moving on. As you sit there, do you feel 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.520 like it's a process that's getting closer to justice or 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.000 does it feel like we need to be doing this 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:32.680 whole thing in a completely different way. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:35.800 I think it definitely has to be done in a 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:37.840 completely different way. And there's a lot of really good 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.240 scholarship and critique from First Nations people's over in Canada, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.600 like I think of Leanne Betterson Miki Simpson who talks 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.280 about you know, justice is just always defined through a 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.720 Western lands, so she said, in the past, and this 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.600 is um quoting her, A lot of the time, state 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.920 justice is about white people feeling better about themselves. State 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.920 narratives are justice, are processes that are actually about injustice 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.600 for us. I think that's what we're seeing, whether it's 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.560 in the coronial court, whether it's in the criminal court, 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.719 where's any sort of structure in this country, is that 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.720 justice is predicated not onnustice for black fellows, but on 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.960 this idea of justice which is about denying accountability for 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.040 white perpetrators. Because that's what we're seeing, you know, like 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.960 in the coronial process and in the justice system, it 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:29.920 seems there's so many, so much leniency given to white 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.440 perpetrators if the victims are Aboriginal women particularly, and it 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.000 just seems like the structures are supporting that in so 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.239 many ways, even just the way they deny direct interrogation 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.640 of the police officers for their failure to search and 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.320 their failure to prosecute and their failure to conduct appropriate investigations. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.240 And I've seen this many times, like police make this 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.160 big claims of benevolency and that they've done everything to find, 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.520 you know, a missing person, or they do everything, but 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.559 the evidence just wasn't there to further it, but it's 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.440 always just been aboult. Well, actually, what is the like, 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.120 what that's your job. You're supposed to gather the evidence, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.240 you know what I mean? For like, the state structures 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.280 of justice are always set up against black followers, whether 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.760 particularly when you're victims, and they can only see us 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:20.839 as perpetrators and as criminals. So they're very they're very 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:25.560 efficient in criminalizing Aboriginal women. But when Aboriginal women are missing, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.760 or when Aboriginal women have died at the hands of 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.120 other perpetrators, they become very inefficient. But they cover up 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.000 that inefficiency through this rhetoric of benevolence or you know, 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.760 the evidence just wasn't there. You know, it's just and 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.199 that's pretty much accepted through the process, Like there's no 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.440 adequate questioning of just how screwed up that is. And 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.120 that's what I felt, like, just that's why I took 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.480 about that apathy, Like the questioning just felt at times 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.920 like ticket books exercises, you know, like not about finding 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.320 justice or finding truth even though the gravity of what 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:01.400 had happened. Yeah, So I don't think that these coronial processes, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.679 just like the courts, you know, are there for victims 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.040 at all, because they're not predicated on that at all, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.200 and they're not victims centered, you know. 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.120 So yeah, and I think you know, hearing what you're saying. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.080 I think a lot of the not only are the 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.760 processes flawed, but we have to accept as a broader 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:25.800 society that the people involved and in charge, whether they're 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.480 court's police, are beyond flawed. I think one of the 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:37.560 infuriating things for me reading through transcripts watching inquests and 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:42.800 court cases take place, is that you see officials of 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:48.600 the state, usually police, but sometimes they're police prosecutors and 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.520 the DPP and everyone else will be presented with a 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.920 piece of evidence that, in a case that involved a 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.560 non indigenous person, probably in a wealthy suburb, would instantly 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:06.439 have everyone screaming, well, it's clear what's going on. And 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.520 yet in these cases where the victim is an Aboriginal woman, 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.719 the point is raised and then immediately glossed over, like 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.520 so long as it's on the record, then that's all 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.600 they had to do. When there is no holding of accountability, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.959 no one stops and says to a police officer, hang on, 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.040 why didn't you follow up on this lead? Why didn't 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.960 you follow up on this information. So often families go 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.760 out of their way to look into what's gone on 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:42.080 themselves and provide the police with further information. I mean, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.600 it's no secret that in a lot of the cases 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:49.000 we're talking about, the men who were with the women 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:54.160 immediately before they disappeared as suspects, and there is a 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.480 lot of evidence pointing to them. But throughout all of this, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.800 not once have they had to feel uncomfortable. The whole 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:06.200 process has protected them, even though they're sitting in a 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.880 courtroom clearly with knowledge at the least of what's gone on, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:16.600 if not directly responsible for a person's death. And not 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:20.280 once do they feel even a shred of the uncomfort 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.960 that the family is forced to feel. And it just 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.480 seems like this is all about a way to move 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.559 a case, as the police would put it in inverted commas, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:39.800 from unsolved into resolved and move along and no more 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.400 than that. And I guess, from a personal standpoint, as 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:50.160 an Aboriginal woman sitting through these processes, what does that 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:51.160 make you feel? 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.600 Well? I was just good leading on from that is 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.800 that you know, when you're actually seeing how this is happening, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.960 you're seeing the conditions that are being laid for impunity 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.800 for violence against Aboriginal women. So there are a lot 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.600 of Aboriginal women, a lot of relatives sitting in the 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.760 court when you're watching that, and you're seeing the callous 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.600 disregard to the lives of Aboriginal women shown not just 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.880 by the police but by all pretty much a lot 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.080 of people in this process. That's a form of you know, 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.440 almost like a form of terror, because they're basically making 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.040 a statement in an indirect way that your lives don't 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.040 matter enough to pursue justice, Your lives don't matter to 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.240 take what is a clear threat away from you in 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.560 these spaces, you know what I mean. And so it's 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.040 just that continuation of that terror. And I always think 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.080 of Professor Marcia Langton wrote this piece in relation to 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.240 let Daily, and she said something along the lines of, 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.720 you know, the failure to prosecute, the failure to do 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.040 anything about these cases suggests that, you know, I think 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.880 it's about like the license to kill. And that's what 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.240 is actually happening, you know what I mean, because otherwise 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.680 we would see a different response, you know. And the 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.120 thing to the real what else heurin constance may watch 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.720 those cases is that at every single stage there was 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.080 a failure from police. There were only ever two police 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.320 officers actually called to give evidence the coronial process. But 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.160 for those who don't know the case, Constance was found 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.040 literally two minutes walk from where she was last seen 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:28.960 and it was her family who actually made the missing 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.160 person's report. It was her family who first began investigating, 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.800 went back to the era was asking everyone where is Constance? 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.800 Then they put in the missing person's report. At no 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.240 stage was any search and rescue attempt ever made. And 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.440 if they had searched for her at the time that 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.560 she had disappeared, the time she was last seen, they 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.200 would have likely found her and that would have led 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.280 to differences in the investigation. You know, there would have 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.440 been more forensic evidence, there would be more evidence together, 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.600 but they fundamentally didn't search. She was found two minutes 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.360 walk away from where she was last scene and there 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.520 was no explanation in the cronia process given for that 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.640 missing persons unit. There was no one from missing persons 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.960 unit to speak to what role they played, What were 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.040 they doing as an over why didn't they take a 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.360 more proactive role in this case? It was always at 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.280 the local CIB Dudham Park, which was also criminalizing Constance, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:25.200 which knew Constance only when she was alive, by claiming 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.440 she was a criminal, you know, which she wasn't. You know, 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.160 she was a loving mother of ten who was deeply 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:34.560 loved by her family. And also there was no explanation 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.040 from homicide when Constance was found as to why they 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.960 had left, what role they had in the investigation, but 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.080 also why they were not involved all the way through. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.239 So I think they stopped being involved about a year afterwards, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.960 So there was no explanation from homicide, and the lead 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.400 investigator at Dudham Park was on the stand and he 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:02.080 still considered her death a suspicious death. It was almost unbelievable, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:07.080 you know, like just they the explanations or the lengths 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.680 they go to to deny that violence, extreme forms of violence, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.760 which is like the direct continuation from the frontier to 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.280 the present, has been perpetrated against the body of an 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.600 Aboriginal woman, even when a body has been found, you know. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.200 So it's just yeah, I think it's just that bringing 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.320 back to your question, seeing that they refuse to search, 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.200 and they refuse to deliver justice for Constance, and they still, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.280 you know, the media is reporting of her in really 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.920 dehumanizing terms that you had never seen in other cases. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.040 It sends messages to Aboriginal women that we know to 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.520 be true that society has not cared about us, you 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.000 know what I mean. And so that's a huge thing 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.920 to think about when you're sitting there in this process. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.000 And that's another level of the violence endemic in the 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.919 process and in Australian society, which is a sellt colonial society. 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.880 It's showing that, you know, Aboriginal women are still targeted 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.600 for violence, and we know that, but we're continually reminded 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.719 of that, and there's a violence in how we are 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:05.400 reminded of that continually. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:11.040 Yeah, listening to what you describe there, it takes me 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.320 to two matters that I think everyone in Australia will 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.800 probably know about. The first is this idea that Marshall 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.639 Lancton speaks about a license to kill. And one of 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.719 the first times we heard it in relation to the 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.560 police and someone who we know was a murderer was 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.960 chopper Red, and whether it was true or not, he 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.919 felt he had been given a green light by the 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.760 police to murder and he kept murdering. And these processes 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.280 by allowing perpetrators not only to go off scot free, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.040 but to never be interrogated, to never feel like they're 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.880 under any risk of being prosecuted for what they do. 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.080 Not only gives them a green light to continue to 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:05.479 abuse and potentially murder Aboriginal women, but it sends to 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.720 all men in our society that same message, this green light, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.840 that you can literally do the worst imaginable things to 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:19.280 an Aboriginal woman and you will face no consequences. And 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.719 that message then to Aboriginal women, I think it is 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.919 as you say, it's a message of terror and terrorism 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.919 and that this is the state in which you are 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.480 being forced to live. And it made me think too 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.760 about Melissa Caddick and the reporting that has gone on 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.760 about her disappearance. For those who don't know, she is 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.160 alleged to have swindled an enormous amount of money before 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.560 taking her own life and her remains being found, and 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.439 more than one hundred police have been involved in that 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:06.520 process and it has resulted in four corners reports, endless 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.280 media coverage. The story has been number one on the 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.960 news from the time she was first being looked at 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.119 for swindling the money to the time of her disappearance, 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.439 the recovery of some of her remains, and on and 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.920 on it goes. And yet that same level, and it's 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.679 been handled with kid gloves. I mean, despite all the 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:35.280 controversy around what has gone on there, the media's handling 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.600 of it has been very sympathetic. And we've also seen 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.920 this enormous amount of police resources. And as I was 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.199 watching the Four Corners the other night about Melissa Caddick, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.280 I realized it wasn't so much about her. What the 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.240 police really were there to do, and we're talking about 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.240 one hundred police officers involved in this case, was find 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.600 out where the money was. That's what the focus, and 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.840 that's what all the resources and all the care and 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.159 all the hard work went into was finding some bloody money. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.080 That Constance and every other Aboriginal woman we've talked about, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:19.320 and those who's lost lives we've never heard about and 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:26.040 whose families search for answers don't get anything when some 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.439 missing money gets everything. And again, the message that sends 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:35.520 is just horrific, and that message is delivered by the media. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.560 And so as a journalist, amy and someone who investigates 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.960 the role the media plays in this and looks at 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.639 the way the media reports on issues impacting Aboriginal women, 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.639 What can you tell us about the way it's done 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.840 and the impact that it has. 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:02.119 Yeah, I mean, I think we've seen that in the 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.840 context of like violence against Aboriginal women, Aboriginal people are 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.879 always held responsible for breaking what is seen as an 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:15.520 alleged silence, and the silence is always seen as predicated 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.880 on Aboriginal culture being violent, and also Aboriginal men being 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.760 perpetrators and Aboriginal women being voiceless and agentless, which we 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.359 know not to be true. But the way that the 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:32.160 media report on it is often just through really dehumanizing representations, which, 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:36.479 like a very key example, is constant. But it's largely 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.440 their refusal to report, I find because in a lot 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.240 of these cases, you will never know about them. Like 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.720 I've looked in a few cases and a few stories 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.600 where when Aboriginal women have gone missing, it'll be like 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.520 a couple of stories in like the eight long years 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.280 they've been missing, and it'll be always based on police 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.600 versions of events, so they're never actually going to families 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.719 and giving them the right to speak back to these 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:06.000 real dehumanizing, dehumanizing representations of their loved ones and they 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:10.840 also validate police versions of events, and they believe police, 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.640 and they believe police when they say that they're doing 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.880 everything to search for them. So the fact that there 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.400 is absolutely no pressure applied on police to continue searching 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.960 and continuing to find them, but at the same time blaming, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:29.440 constantly blaming aboritional communities for this, you know, long colonial 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.280 history of target taring our communities are savage and violent. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.520 It all leads to what we're seeing today, which is that, 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.960 you know, there is a continual issue around Aboriginal people 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:44.240 being Aboriginal women being targeted for violence and being actively disappeared, 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.040 and the media directly complicit in that in their failure 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:49.760 to report, and when they do report, it is always 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:54.760 based on these really deep, dehumanizing sort of accounts of 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.320 them that are so far removed from who they actually are. 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:01.000 And the other thing that I've noticed is that often 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.800 the police will use mug shots for missing persons alerts 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:10.840 when Aboriginal women go missing, so that those mug shots 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:12.959 make them seem as if they're wanted persons and not 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.760 missing persons. And that comes back to the criminalization of 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:20.320 Aboriginal women as well, even when they're victims, and how 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.159 they're only visible when they're there to be criminalized, and 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.359 that leads you to all of the connections with the 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:28.320 disappearing of Aboriginal women into the justice system, you know 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:30.560 what I mean. So, I think the media is totally complicit, 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:34.720 but particularly in holding up this apparatus of disappearance in 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:38.720 this country, which always targets Aboriginal women, you know what 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:43.800