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Speaker 1: It's Will in One Mind.

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Speaker 2: Hey guys as well and Moody.

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Speaker 3: This is our new podcast In One Word, where we

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Speaker 3: ask a guest a really deep and meaningful.

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Speaker 2: Question and they have to answer it in just one word.

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Speaker 4: Woods. Yeah, pretty difficult task, but today's guest was absolutely

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Speaker 4: up for it. It's the current sorry, the former. It's

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Speaker 4: not Scott Morris and she's definitely not going And no,

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Speaker 4: it's the former Prime Minister of Australia and the first

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Speaker 4: female prime Minister, Julia Gillard.

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Speaker 1: The new leader of the federal Parliamentary Labor Party elected unopposed.

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Speaker 2: Julia Gillard.

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Speaker 3: Julia is a true pioneer of her gender. She's fought

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Speaker 3: hard for women in everything that she's done, whether that's

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Speaker 3: in politics or in broader life as well.

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Speaker 1: I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by

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Speaker 1: this man.

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Speaker 2: I will not.

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Speaker 4: And she's faced a lot of criticism as well, I

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Speaker 4: would say of any person in the world, even where

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Speaker 4: it's in politics or reality TV. Copped it all on

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Speaker 4: oh yeah, yeah h while holding an incredibly difficult job.

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Speaker 4: She was copying it from everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I want to just say a few remarks about being

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Speaker 1: the first woman to serve in this position. There's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of analysis about the so called gender wars,

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Speaker 1: me playing the so called gender card, because Heaven's nos,

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Speaker 1: no one noticed I was a woman until I raised it.

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Speaker 1: What I am absolutely confident of is it will be

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Speaker 1: easier for the next woman and the woman after that

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Speaker 1: and the woman after that.

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Speaker 5: And I'm proud of that.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, look, since her time as a PM at

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Speaker 3: her retirement Front Politics, she really has gone on to

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Speaker 3: achieve more and more amazing things, becoming the chair of

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Speaker 3: mental health charity Beyond Blues.

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Speaker 2: She's written a book.

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Speaker 3: And even developed an outrageous friendship interesting friendship with the

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Speaker 3: one and only Rhianna through some of their charity work together.

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Speaker 3: So given all that, woods Weird, think about what was

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Speaker 3: the best question for Julia Gillar.

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Speaker 2: What was going to get the best answer out of her?

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Speaker 3: And I'm looking forward to hearing her answer, given that

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Speaker 3: she is a Prime Minister, and you know, she thought

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Speaker 3: got a large vocab that she can choose from to

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Speaker 3: answer this, and I think it's a curly one. So

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Speaker 3: Julia Gillard, welcome and in one word, what is the

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Speaker 3: relationship between gender and success?

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Speaker 5: Intriguing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I see see for me, Julia, I feel like

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Speaker 3: that's a bit of a cop out answer if.

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Speaker 5: I'm be oh, now we're getting controversy.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's true, though, because I mean it's an interesting answer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like, of course it's an interesting question. But

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Speaker 3: what do you I mean, well, let's let's do a

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Speaker 3: little bit further. What do you mean by intriguing?

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Speaker 5: Intriguing because we can see some of the interactions between

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Speaker 5: gender and leadership, but honestly, I don't think we can

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Speaker 5: see all of them. I think we need more research,

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Speaker 5: more conversation, more inquiry. Hillary Clinton tells this lovely little

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Speaker 5: story when she's speaking about these things and analogy, and

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Speaker 5: she talks about, you know, two young fish who were

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Speaker 5: swimming upstream one day, and an older fish is swimming downstream,

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Speaker 5: and the older fish says, the water is mighty fine today,

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Speaker 5: and the young fish listen to that, and then one

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Speaker 5: turns to the other and says, what's border Because when

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Speaker 5: you're in an environment all of the time, actually you

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Speaker 5: don't notice it anymore. So why should a fish know

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Speaker 5: what water is? Because they've never been out in the air,

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Speaker 5: and none of us have actually been out in an

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Speaker 5: environment that's free of gender stereotypes, and so the impact

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Speaker 5: they have on us and how we see things like leadership,

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Speaker 5: I think is sort of elusive and intriguing.

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Speaker 2: Wow, great analogy.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because I mean, like I'm looking at some

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Speaker 3: of the people you've interviewed for your book. You've got

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Speaker 3: Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, to Cindra Idern, Christine Lagarde and

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Speaker 3: who you write the book with, and Woods in other

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Speaker 3: pronunciation before on conjo iweala.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: I just yes? And Gozi and Gozy exactly right, the

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Speaker 3: first sands and cozy within each of these women, like

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Speaker 3: you know, all of them incredibly successful obviously think of

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Speaker 3: Angela Merkel as well. And it's funny that, like, when

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Speaker 3: they are in these positions of success, often, you know

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Speaker 3: you said before in the interview that we did on

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Speaker 3: the radio show, like the precursor to saying how successful

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Speaker 3: they are is often remarking that they are a woman,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you say, like, wow, you know, isn't

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Speaker 3: it amazing? You know, she's doing such a good job.

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Speaker 3: And I'm being quite candid here. I think about conversations

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Speaker 3: that I have with you know, friends of mine, peers

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Speaker 3: of mine, even like my parents, for example, where there's

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Speaker 3: like there's almost like a level of like, geez, I

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Speaker 3: hope that they do well because of their gender. And

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Speaker 3: I've thought about it's a lot over the weekend before

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Speaker 3: we spoke to you as well, that I have this

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Speaker 3: almost like implicit you know, need to feel like I

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Speaker 3: want to try and you know, wish them well. But

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Speaker 3: kind of speaking to you is made me think like,

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Speaker 3: maybe that's not such a good thing. Like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I know that's coming probably from a good place, but

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Speaker 3: the key to sort of creating a plateau or a

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Speaker 3: level playing field is not having any any sense of

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Speaker 3: like you know, pity or or extended sympathy for women

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Speaker 3: who are in positions where they could be cut down

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Speaker 3: because of their gender.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about it more?

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Speaker 5: No, I think that's a really interesting point. And you know,

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Speaker 5: I thought about this a lot myself when I was

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Speaker 5: you know, Prime minister. You'd get you know, men, particularly

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Speaker 5: men from the business community. Often they were a few

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Speaker 5: years older than me, and they'd want to be you know,

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Speaker 5: they want to be really nice, and so they'd say something,

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Speaker 5: you know, they sort of patch your hand and they'd

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Speaker 5: say something like, oh, it must just be so hard

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Speaker 5: for you, and there's kind of a line between supportive

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Speaker 5: and a bit patronizing that it's easy to slip over.

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Speaker 5: And there's a line between treating women fairly and judge

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Speaker 5: them as the leaders on their merits, versus giving them

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Speaker 5: a judgment that's too harsh because they're a woman, or

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Speaker 5: actually too soft because they're a woman, and we shouldn't

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Speaker 5: do either of them. The judgment should be fair. But

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Speaker 5: I think what you're intuitively reacting to is do you

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Speaker 5: know that because there are so few women that's right

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Speaker 5: that if she fails the one that you're sending good vibe,

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Speaker 5: that's right, that she fails, then the judgment will be

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Speaker 5: made new women weren't up, that's right. You've got a

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Speaker 5: special barracking for them, that's truly understandable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, like, again, obviously Woods and I

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Speaker 3: are both blokes, but it is a really tricky space

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Speaker 3: to sit in a lot of the time where you

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Speaker 3: try and remove that completely. What I often try and

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Speaker 3: do is, like, my sister is far more intelligent and

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Speaker 3: far more successful than I do.

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Speaker 2: Like, I just try and do it.

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Speaker 3: So I'm talking to my sister and like, if I

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Speaker 3: gave her any sympathy she'd.

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Speaker 2: Walk all over me in a heartbeat.

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Speaker 3: So that's a nice thing for me to put it

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Speaker 3: in though, because she's my sister, so I can feel

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Speaker 3: what that relationships like.

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Speaker 2: But I do I do feel for you know, I

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Speaker 2: talk to my dad for example.

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Speaker 3: I do feel for a lot of men that are

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Speaker 3: in those sorts of positions where their first gear, like

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Speaker 3: their first response is to try and fix the situation.

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Speaker 3: They kind of overcompensate into that sphere where they get

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Speaker 3: into like well, as I said, overcompensating or pitying or

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Speaker 3: trying to help out or even.

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Speaker 2: Like obsequiousness with a woman.

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Speaker 3: And as a woman, do you think that it's do

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Speaker 3: you say to them in that position, hey mate, like

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm okay, you don't need to try it

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Speaker 3: so hard, like I'm going to be all right, or

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Speaker 3: do you sort of acknowledge that they're making the effort.

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Speaker 6: Look, I.

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Speaker 5: Would first acknowledge that they're making the effort. And you know,

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Speaker 5: there still is gendered treatment, So there still are moments

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Speaker 5: when a woman's being treated ifrently, and we should emphasize

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Speaker 5: at that moment. I mean, you know, the people who

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Speaker 5: came up to me and said, you know, after that

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Speaker 5: rally where people were holding up signs calling me a

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Speaker 5: bit and a witch and stuff, there were people who

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Speaker 5: came up to me afterwards and said, I'm really sorry

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Speaker 5: I saw that on the TV. I'm really sorry those

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Speaker 5: things got said about you that wasn't right, and you know,

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Speaker 5: that kind of sense of support that really is heartening.

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Speaker 5: What you're not looking for is you're not looking to

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Speaker 5: be judged through a sympathetic lens the whole time. You're

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Speaker 5: asking people to call out and let's get rid of

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Speaker 5: the gender treatment and then let's be fair, just fair.

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Speaker 4: Juli, can you comment on.

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Speaker 6: I've read a few articles in the past talking about

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Speaker 6: actually women being the main issue in women being successful

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Speaker 6: in business, because there's been a bit of a trend of,

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Speaker 6: you know, women pulling down other women. Or use the

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Speaker 6: example of Natalie Portman, who I forget which award ceremony

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Speaker 6: it was, but basically she wore a dress which had

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Speaker 6: a whole bunch of female directors on it and it

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Speaker 6: was all the female directors of film that hadn't been

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Speaker 6: nominated for an award. And then I believe it was

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Speaker 6: Rose McGown, who's another female actress, who called out Natalie

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Speaker 6: Portman and said, what gives you the right to say

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Speaker 6: that you haven't worked with female directors? Which she hadn't,

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Speaker 6: which was the ironic thing in that Sich, can you

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Speaker 6: comment on that, Julia?

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Speaker 5: Women are always going to have different views and different perspectives,

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Speaker 5: you know. I mean, I think part of this stereotyping

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Speaker 5: thing is also not to put women in a space

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Speaker 5: where you know, you're all the same and you've all

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Speaker 5: got to look out for each other, and the minute

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Speaker 5: that you aren't agreeing with each other on a particular issue,

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Speaker 5: then we're all going to go kind of tack fight

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Speaker 5: or something, you know. I mean, women can legitimately have

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Speaker 5: different perspectives about complicated issues, but I do think some

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Speaker 5: of it gets overput. And we do look at this

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Speaker 5: in the book. You know, there's been a perception in

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Speaker 5: the business world that, you know, the first woman who

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Speaker 5: makes it onto a corporate board or the first woman

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Speaker 5: who makes it onto the senior management team then pulls

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Speaker 5: up the drawbridge and doesn't help other women get to

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Speaker 5: where she is. And when that's been analyzed, often the

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Speaker 5: problem is not that woman. The problem is the power

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Speaker 5: structure in that business saying gender, Oh, we fix that

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Speaker 5: we've got one of them on the board, we don't

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Speaker 5: need two of them done tick gender equality, and so

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Speaker 5: it's that that stops further progress. So I don't like

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Speaker 5: to easily fall into the cycle of it's about women

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Speaker 5: not supporting women. Having said that, you know, part of

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Speaker 5: being in a frame where maybe only one or two

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Speaker 5: seats on a corporate border there for women, it does

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Speaker 5: create this kind of artificial competition between the women for

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Speaker 5: the one or two seats instead of binding them together

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Speaker 5: as a collective to say, let's change the rules of

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Speaker 5: this game and get half the seats. And we try

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Speaker 5: and talk about that. In the book, we refer to

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Speaker 5: it as the politics of scarcity, and we quote a

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Speaker 5: great saying that the politics of scarcity isn't our fault,

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Speaker 5: but it is our problem, and as women, we've got

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Speaker 5: to work through it and work out how we're going

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Speaker 5: to each other.

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Speaker 2: It's a fascinating area.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like any policy in general, particularly on the

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Speaker 3: left unfortunately, is subject to eating itself for one of

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Speaker 3: a better word. I mean, I feel like on the

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Speaker 3: left side of politics, like everyone's just so good at

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Speaker 3: saying like, well, you know, it's like we're all trying

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Speaker 3: to do this together, but then everyone's potshotting each other.

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Speaker 3: Within that it's like, well, you're not working enough, and

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Speaker 3: you're not working enough, and you're not and it can

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Speaker 3: kind of detract from the overall push of the movement

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Speaker 3: in general. And I can see, you know, Woods and

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Speaker 3: I remember talking about that Natalie Portman story and it

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Speaker 3: was just like, jeez, this is just extraordinary from both sides. Really,

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Speaker 3: that Natalie Portman thought she was doing the right thing

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Speaker 3: and then somebody else, like Rose McGown is a champion

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Speaker 3: of feminism, pulled her down publicly.

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Speaker 2: For it was just wild to think.

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Speaker 3: It was like, wow, surely you guys are thinking about

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Speaker 3: being on the same team here. But I think the

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Speaker 3: heartwarming thing is that when you do get to see

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Speaker 3: things like, you know, women's rallies, women's marches and stuff like.

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Speaker 3: You know that stuff might exist online, but when it

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Speaker 3: comes down to you know what the overall message is,

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Speaker 3: which is equality. I feel like on Mass it does

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Speaker 3: come together for the most important moments. It's like that

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Speaker 3: speech that you made, Julia, that we spoke about before.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and look, I get to spend a lot of time,

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Speaker 5: you know, in women's conferences and well not now obviously,

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Speaker 5: but they're not traveling. But in a more normalized world,

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Speaker 5: I get to spend a lot of time at women's

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Speaker 5: events and me there's a lot of solidarity and looking

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Speaker 5: after each other. I see that on display a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. Well, it's been amazing to

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Speaker 3: talk you, Julia. Thanks so much for coming on. I mean,

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Speaker 3: absolute cop out of a first answer if I'm being

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Speaker 3: if I'm being honest for our one word for word answers.

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Speaker 3: But look, it is it's a it's it's obviously just

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Speaker 3: such a layered issue in so many ways. And that's

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Speaker 3: why the brand new book's got four different parts to it,

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Speaker 3: all about women and leadership. It's some amazing interviews there,

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Speaker 3: Theresa make Hillary Clinton, just Cindra doing Christine Legarde as

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Speaker 3: I said before, and Nagozi Okondro Iweala, who is the

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Speaker 3: Nigerian finance minister who's about to keep partner. And look, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there is anything that we've taken out of it, it's

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Speaker 3: that you know, you in particular where the position that

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Speaker 3: you were in at the time that you were in,

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Speaker 3: I mean just talking about some of these issues just

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Speaker 3: you know, it feels for me like a hurdle, so

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine what it was like in your position.

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Speaker 3: So without pitying or over extending or reaching, congratulations, congratulations

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Speaker 3: so much. Congratulations on how favor on all that you've

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Speaker 3: achieved and all that you are in Australia's eyes right now,

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Speaker 3: which is really Nikon, that's amazing.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much. I very much enjoyed that conversation.