Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics
Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so
Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba.
Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,
Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.
Speaker 1: For the next few weeks, I am sharing some of
Speaker 1: my favorite interviews that I've conducted on How I Work
Speaker 1: in the last two and a half years of running
Speaker 1: this podcast. So forward today, I am very excited to
Speaker 1: replay my interview with Rachel Botsman. Now, I've had her
Speaker 1: on the show twice and this is the very first
Speaker 1: time I had her on the show, and I got
Speaker 1: so much positive feedback on this interview. I seriously had
Speaker 1: so many people write to me to say how many
Speaker 1: great tips they got from this episode. So I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that you will feel the same way at the end
Speaker 1: of this show. Now, if you don't know who Rachel
Speaker 1: Batsman is, she is a world or an owned expert
Speaker 1: on technology and trust and the author of two best
Speaker 1: selling books. Her first book was called What's Mine Is Yours,
Speaker 1: which was all about collaborative consumption and her second book,
Speaker 1: Who Can You Trust, explores how technology is transforming trust
Speaker 1: and what this means for life, work, and how we
Speaker 1: do business. Rachel is a lecturer at Oxford University and
Speaker 1: has been recognized as one of the most creative people
Speaker 1: in business by Fast Company and as one of the
Speaker 1: fifty most influential management thinkers in the world. So we
Speaker 1: cover so much ground in this interview, ranging from how
Speaker 1: the weather affects her productivity, through to her very unusual
Speaker 1: but very awesome way of crafting presentations, and finally, before
Speaker 1: we go to the interview, if you're enjoying how I work,
Speaker 1: I love it if you could take five seconds out
Speaker 1: of your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to this too. It might be
Speaker 1: just a star rating perhaps or maybe a few words.
Speaker 1: I love getting this feedback. It really is awesome, And
Speaker 1: thank you to the hundreds of people that they've done
Speaker 1: so it's super lovely and generous of you, and it
Speaker 1: helps other people discover how I work too. So on
Speaker 1: that note, let's head to Rachel to hear about how
Speaker 1: she works. Welcome to the show, Rachel, it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to be here now I've heard you referred to as
Speaker 1: a digital philosopher, not.
Speaker 2: A title I gave myself, other people gave me, I
Speaker 2: think in the absence of titles. You know, for some
Speaker 2: reason people they don't want to call me an author
Speaker 2: or a teacher or whatever it is. But it's actually
Speaker 2: a very beautiful title because I think I've researched deeply
Speaker 2: the role of philosophers in society, not just what philosophy is,
Speaker 2: and a lot of it is giving people frameworks and
Speaker 2: lenses to view the world a little bit differently or
Speaker 2: to simplify very complex things. And I guess that's what
Speaker 2: I do, is I study structural shifts enabled by technologies
Speaker 2: that are having a huge impact in your lot, on
Speaker 2: your our lives. So it's a big compliment. Even if
Speaker 2: it sounds very PONZI, I.
Speaker 1: Think it's very appropriate. And and your most recent book,
Speaker 1: Who Can You Trust, came out I think late last year, is.
Speaker 2: That right, Yeah, so it came out Who Can You Trust?
Speaker 2: Question marks, Yes, it came out in October. And then
Speaker 2: I had the bright idea that I will simultate, I
Speaker 2: would simultaneously launch it across three continents, thinking this would
Speaker 2: be very good in terms of focus and momentum, underestimating
Speaker 2: that that is physically quite gruelling.
Speaker 1: I'm really keen to delve into the writing of the book.
Speaker 1: So I want to go back in time, back to
Speaker 1: when the publishers said, yes, let's do this book, and
Speaker 1: talk me through the writing the creation of.
Speaker 2: A book like this, I might be slightly different from authors,
Speaker 2: but by the time I go to a publisher, the
Speaker 2: book is fully pretty fully formed in my head, like
Speaker 2: the argument, the stories. And so I wrote my first book,
Speaker 2: What's Mine Is Yours in two thousand and nine, so
Speaker 2: this was a pretty big gap. So I was thinking
Speaker 2: about it for about five years. So I hate the
Speaker 2: proposal process, just to be honest with you, like proposals
Speaker 2: are very strange, like a mixture of a marketing document
Speaker 2: and trying to show your voice. But then once they
Speaker 2: said to the publisher's Penguin, once they say go I
Speaker 2: think I finished in seven months, we start to finish.
Speaker 2: And then with everything that started to go on with
Speaker 2: Brexit and the US elections, they actually chopped. So I
Speaker 2: was meant to deliver in April, and then they said, no,
Speaker 2: you are to deliver end of January, So they chopped
Speaker 2: so I had to write really fast, and at first
Speaker 2: when they said that, I was like, there's no way
Speaker 2: this is going to happen. And it was good in
Speaker 2: a way. I mean, I think it was a little
Speaker 2: too much pressure. But it's always interesting what those time
Speaker 2: constraints can do.
Speaker 1: Wow. And so what did a typical day look like
Speaker 1: during during what is a very time constrained for a
Speaker 1: few months to write a full book in So what
Speaker 1: does a typical day of writing look like for you
Speaker 1: when you're in that phase?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as I said, I'm probably I don't
Speaker 2: know if this is different from some authors, and that
Speaker 2: a lot of the interviews were done. And one of
Speaker 2: the things I find is absolutely keys When people say
Speaker 2: to me, I just can't finish the book, I'm like,
Speaker 2: we'll have you cleared your schedule. And by clearing the schedule,
Speaker 2: I mean nothing. I mean, it's got to be like
Speaker 2: your kid's life and death, your health, like a ball
Speaker 2: meeting you have to absolutely legally attend, because even when
Speaker 2: you have like a one hour meeting or an interview,
Speaker 2: you change your state. And so I found that focus
Speaker 2: absolutely critical to find that momentum and to get frustrated
Speaker 2: and bored with the material, but to keep forcing yourself
Speaker 2: to come back to it because you hit these walls,
Speaker 2: and if you've got other things going on, they're the
Speaker 2: excuse or distraction to actually not deal with the tough
Speaker 2: parts that you're trying to push through in the material.
Speaker 1: So would you write for eight hours a day? Like,
Speaker 1: what would that look like? No?
Speaker 2: I mean I think you have what I call, for
Speaker 2: lack of better term, big stride days. So you have
Speaker 2: days where and you don't know when they're going to come.
Speaker 2: So it's not like you can say, well, you know,
Speaker 2: a researcher for four days, it's gonna be a big
Speaker 2: stride date. You just sit down and it's like a powerhouse.
Speaker 2: It's just you forget going to the toilet. You've just
Speaker 2: it's like you can do four or five thousand words.
Speaker 2: So I've never been one of these people's like I'm
Speaker 2: going to do fifteen hundred words a day, because sometimes
Speaker 2: some days you'll write two hundred words. But it's the
Speaker 2: key section of the book. So I find those goals
Speaker 2: quite artificial, you know, if you're moving at the right pace.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I will set is
Speaker 2: like chapter goals, Right, So I will wake up. I
Speaker 2: now have children, so this privilege of the six to
Speaker 2: nine slot, which is absolutely precious for me when it
Speaker 2: comes to writing, has gone.
Speaker 1: So the six to nine am slut.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So because I used to go to bed and
Speaker 2: think about it and write and then want to wake
Speaker 2: up and write, and I could do more in those
Speaker 2: three hours than I could do for the rest of
Speaker 2: the day. And when I first have my son, to
Speaker 2: be honest, I was quite resemful that and I thought, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm never going to find that productivity again.
Speaker 2: And then you get to a place of acceptance where
Speaker 2: it's like, well, you know your children are there and
Speaker 2: they don't have any understanding around this, and you have
Speaker 2: to drop them off at school. So one of the
Speaker 2: tricks I've found is how you settle, how you start
Speaker 2: is really key to the rest of the day. And
Speaker 2: a really easy trick I learned is if you're in
Speaker 2: flow the day before, don't finish the paragraph, so like
Speaker 2: get halfway through the paragraph and then kind of write
Speaker 2: the next sentence. And it's really easy to pick up.
Speaker 2: Days where you've like completed something and you're starting again,
Speaker 2: they're harder because you're kind of starting the engine from scratch.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. We were talking about Adam Grant before we
Speaker 1: started recording, and he gives us the exact same technique
Speaker 1: where he will kind of finish. I think Ernest Hemingway
Speaker 1: described it like packing on a downhill slope or something
Speaker 1: like that. That's interesting to hear that that works for
Speaker 1: you as well.
Speaker 2: And so you.
Speaker 1: Mentioned like the six to nine am slot when you're
Speaker 1: a mom, that's gone, and I've definitely experienced that myself.
Speaker 1: So what replaced that.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not just what replaced that. The other thing
Speaker 2: I think people underestimate is that six to nine slot
Speaker 2: requires a lot of energy, and you've probably experienced if
Speaker 2: you're not present for them, or if you're on a rush,
Speaker 2: they move backwards, they take their clothes off, the thing happens, right,
Speaker 2: So it's saying like the these hours are yours and
Speaker 2: then whatever you do, how you switch from that mode
Speaker 2: to this concentration mode is really important. So I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe it's because I'm British, but the team making the
Speaker 2: process of making tea properly making tea in a teapot
Speaker 2: and sitting down and drinking it, and then I always
Speaker 2: try and read something that is not mine that I
Speaker 2: think is brilliant, and I'll have a stack of things
Speaker 2: and it quietens you down, especially if it's me in
Speaker 2: a racy morning, or there's something that happened that you
Speaker 2: can't control. And so really what you're doing is controlling
Speaker 2: your state. And anything can happen on the way to
Speaker 2: work or the drop off of the kids, but you're saying,
Speaker 2: I'm in control of that because I have these mechanisms
Speaker 2: and tricks and food and drink and listening as well.
Speaker 2: So I found like podcasts or listening to other books,
Speaker 2: not so that you're totally immersed in it, but you've
Speaker 2: switched mode in a very conscious way.
Speaker 1: So the tea, the reading something that's quite inspiring and powerful,
Speaker 1: has that almost become like a ritual to get you
Speaker 1: into that sort of work state or a flow state.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, definitely. I mean the other thing is I
Speaker 2: have I write with a pan and pen a lot.
Speaker 2: So the other thing is I will write a list
Speaker 2: of things that I've got to get through. And you know,
Speaker 2: when you're in writing mode, like I've got to read
Speaker 2: this paper, I've got to whatever it is, but it's
Speaker 2: still a to do list. And then it's also I
Speaker 2: literally write the time the day where I'm going to
Speaker 2: deal with other things, and like that's the religion, that's
Speaker 2: the discipline, right, Like especially on the days where were
Speaker 2: like I really don't want to write, like the temptation
Speaker 2: to just shot for shoes or do email. I always
Speaker 2: know when things are going really bad because I do invoicing,
Speaker 2: which I hate. And it's also not been too harm
Speaker 2: with yourself, like those days your mind is doing something.
Speaker 2: I really believe this, it's tripping for a reason, and
Speaker 2: you kind of have to let it do that. But
Speaker 2: also know when okay, I've done that now for three
Speaker 2: days in a row, there's no more billing to be done.
Speaker 2: It's back to Yeah, I want to come back to
Speaker 2: the big stride days. And I'm curious if you've ever
Speaker 2: thought about what are the precursors to a big stride day?
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought what if they all got in common?
Speaker 1: I have.
Speaker 2: Sleep number one. It's like absolutely key, like when you
Speaker 2: ironically it's when you're not thinking about the work and
Speaker 2: you're well rested. And there's a difference I think between
Speaker 2: they don't often all for me anyway, they don't happen
Speaker 2: on a Monday, so it's not about the weekend of
Speaker 2: recharging and resting. It's just literally you've slept really well.
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it is tied to
Speaker 2: your physical mental state. They often come when you've been
Speaker 2: wrestling with something, so especially when you're trying to really
Speaker 2: get to the heart of something quite complex. I often
Speaker 2: find they come also when you've been inspired by something,
Speaker 2: and it can be something very small, like you read
Speaker 2: a sentence or so it's they're the consistent conditions. Weather
Speaker 2: for me also is really big, so I write really
Speaker 2: well when it's raining. I think it's because there's.
Speaker 1: Nowhere else to go and.
Speaker 2: Well suited to the UK climate. But if you look
Speaker 2: on it's the most beautiful day, you know, you'll think,
Speaker 2: when can I go for that walk? Or maybe I'll
Speaker 2: read outside in the sunshine. So it's like this inward focusing.
Speaker 1: The impact of the rain that's fascinating. It kind of
Speaker 1: gets you focused because there's nothing else to do to
Speaker 1: procrastinate on outside. Yeah, and I want to know, like
Speaker 1: you talked about invoicing being the kind of thing that
Speaker 1: you know you might go to or you're in sad,
Speaker 1: really very very sad, very understandable when you're trying to
Speaker 1: tackle a tough task. How how do you like, do
Speaker 1: you have you know, anything that you do or rules
Speaker 1: that you set yourself or tricks that you that you
Speaker 1: use to stay focused on tasks that can be hard
Speaker 1: to push through and try to sort of push out
Speaker 1: the various digital distractions that are out there.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's it's really difficult.
Speaker 2: And but this is the most basic advice. The way
Speaker 2: you start your day, you will continue. So I call
Speaker 2: it like that monkey brain that jumping right. So if
Speaker 2: you are going through the check Twitter, check Instagram, check LinkedIn,
Speaker 2: check email check blah blah. You you you've put yourself
Speaker 2: physically in this racing mode. I mean, I don't understand
Speaker 2: neurologically what's going on, but you understand physically you feel
Speaker 2: very different. And so I think this. I I'm not
Speaker 2: a believer that you get everything out the way. You know,
Speaker 2: so some people and it works to some people, like
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do email eight to nine and then it
Speaker 2: will be a clean slate. There's usually something in that
Speaker 2: email that comes up that you have to deal with,
Speaker 2: or that bothers you, or that requires more than five
Speaker 2: minutes to answer. So the way you start your day
Speaker 2: really sets the rest of the day. And that's become
Speaker 2: far more disciplined around that. And even like I can't
Speaker 2: believe for years my phone was my alarm. It's such
Speaker 2: a stupid thing to do, with all due respect, it's
Speaker 2: so it's like, you know, it's like waking up and
Speaker 2: having a can of coke there, Like it's just there's
Speaker 2: no way I could resist the temptation. And I thought
Speaker 2: I was being super efficient because I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: if I set my arm for six fifteen, my kids
Speaker 2: typically wake up at six forty five, I can do
Speaker 2: half an hour of emails and wow, I'm super mom,
Speaker 2: And then they wake up and everything's clear, and then
Speaker 2: I can have their breakth make their life, you know,
Speaker 2: like listen to the pace of it. There's no way
Speaker 2: you're gonna start your day and be able to Yeah,
Speaker 2: or some people maybe, but not for was there was.
Speaker 1: There a moment in time where you know, you had
Speaker 1: your phone as your alarm and you're checking emails first
Speaker 1: thing in the morning, and it kind of dawns on
Speaker 1: you what am I doing? Or was it a gradual shift?
Speaker 2: I think I realized it, but I didn't change the
Speaker 2: behavior for a long time. I think I realized it
Speaker 2: when I am really shortsighted, so I have to put
Speaker 2: my lenses into sea and I remember like the having
Speaker 2: turning the phone on. I sleep with airplane mode, right,
Speaker 2: so at least it wasn't dinging and really and it
Speaker 2: was pitched back in the room. My husband's asleep and
Speaker 2: it's like, what I happened to my face? And I'm
Speaker 2: like what, I haven't even put my lenses in, Like
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like this is not
Speaker 2: how human beings are meant to wake up. My feet
Speaker 2: haven't even touched the ground. And one one of the
Speaker 2: things I try. You know, I'm not a particularly religious person,
Speaker 2: but every morning, when my feet touch the ground, I
Speaker 2: try and ask myself, like why am I doing this? One?
Speaker 2: Am I grateful for? What do I want to achieve today?
Speaker 2: And even I think that's my one minute mindfulness, that's
Speaker 2: all I can do. But it's really you know, when
Speaker 2: you come back to the end of the day and
Speaker 2: you think, like did I do that to I achieve that?
Speaker 2: How off balance was I? And it's a for me,
Speaker 2: It's been a form of self reflection that if you
Speaker 2: keep missing it, there's probably something physical or time based
Speaker 2: that you have to address to Maybe you don't have
Speaker 2: enough support, or you don't have enough support the right
Speaker 2: end of the day, maybe you're eating wrong. Whatever it is,
Speaker 2: there's something structurally you can probably change.
Speaker 1: So now I assume you've got an old fashioned ALAM clock.
Speaker 1: Next I do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my son's learned how to work it, so
Speaker 2: it went off like four am the other day. I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, bring about the phone.
Speaker 1: Gosh, I love that. Yeah, oh wow. And so you're saying,
Speaker 1: like it's really important to set your day up well
Speaker 1: and how you wanted to flow. And so with that,
Speaker 1: what time would you first check your inbox or Twitter
Speaker 1: feed or Instagram feed on a good days.
Speaker 2: It's different now because I'm not in that writing mode.
Speaker 2: It really, I mean, it really does switch, right. So
Speaker 2: there's no way I stuck to these rules when I
Speaker 2: was on the book tour. I mean, you're like responding
Speaker 2: to media inquiries. So I think this is one of
Speaker 2: the key things is you don't have to be in
Speaker 2: this state all the time. But when you're working on
Speaker 2: a project that has a massive artifact or just by
Speaker 2: design requires concentration. You're going to have to redesign and
Speaker 2: restructure your day. Now it looks quite different. So now
Speaker 2: I'm actually back into this, Like I'll do emails nine
Speaker 2: to ten, but then I won't get into the habit.
Speaker 2: I'll turn it off and then I'll probably check it
Speaker 2: again around four o'clock and people who know me and
Speaker 2: know who need to get hold of me, they will
Speaker 2: text me. So that's the thing, Like, there are ways
Speaker 2: that people can get hold of you if it's really
Speaker 2: truly time sens its.
Speaker 1: That's very disciplined. So checking emails twice a day, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool. I want to switch gears and talk about
Speaker 1: presentations because you do a lot of presenting, a lot
Speaker 1: of keynote speeches. I would imagine that that's probably a
Speaker 1: large part of a typical week for you. Would that
Speaker 1: be fair to.
Speaker 2: Say yes and no. So the other thing I learned
Speaker 2: is that when you look at when I look at
Speaker 2: my calendar, I should say and you can go, oh, right, like,
Speaker 2: so I'm going to do four speeches this month, and
Speaker 2: there's oh, it looks so nice, evenly distributed, you know,
Speaker 2: one in Los Angeles, one in Munich, like one per
Speaker 2: week for me, it's not the way to structure time
Speaker 2: because speech they require Yes, you do it a lot,
Speaker 2: but they still require prep. Then you've got the travel,
Speaker 2: then you've got the delivery, and then you've got the
Speaker 2: return trip home. So unless they're in domestic, even if
Speaker 2: they're domestic, I mean they're Melbourne based, it's four days.
Speaker 2: So if you've got four speeches, it's actually a month gone.
Speaker 2: So I've now found I think of them as delivery weeks.
Speaker 2: I think of them as sort of outwork facing weeks
Speaker 2: where I know I'm going to be speaking and interacting
Speaker 2: with a lot of people and then I will have
Speaker 2: so I clustered them. So like last week I had
Speaker 2: seven speeches, but I won't do any now for three.
Speaker 2: And on the calendar it's blocked teaching prep because I'm
Speaker 2: about to deliver a new course at Oxford and that
Speaker 2: blocking has been and the blocking I still don't think
Speaker 2: I've got right because I've been blocking in weeks and
Speaker 2: I think I have to be blocking in a Fortnite fortnightly
Speaker 2: even though I'm not working on another big book. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so like article to write block and then I'll do
Speaker 2: like meeting days as well.
Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, so kind of batching it, I guess is yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to look at how you prepare for a speech,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious as to how that's changed in the
Speaker 1: last five years, because I've heard you talk about how
Speaker 1: you feel like you've learnt so much around giving a
Speaker 1: good speech and how you do prepare. So can you
Speaker 1: talk me through what does that look like? How do
Speaker 1: you prepare for a speech?
Speaker 2: So I think the main I can't watch early speeches
Speaker 2: like it's quite for me. I can see how clumsy
Speaker 2: they are, and in terms of the preparation, and I've
Speaker 2: found that you can speak to the event organizer and
Speaker 2: with all due respect, they'll tell you the number of
Speaker 2: people that's going to be in the room, and they'll
Speaker 2: tell you what the room's like, and they'll tell you
Speaker 2: what they wanted to talk about. But then I always
Speaker 2: know if I'm talking to the right person because I say, well,
Speaker 2: why do you really want me there, and why have
Speaker 2: you put me in this particular slot? And how do
Speaker 2: you want your audience to feel? And this was a
Speaker 2: really new question that I started asking. And if they
Speaker 2: said I don't really know, then you're not speaking to
Speaker 2: the right person. You're not speaking to the person that
Speaker 2: said we should have Rachel here, and so insisting that
Speaker 2: you have that briefing with that person is really important
Speaker 2: because otherwise you're going in dark. So that's been really key,
Speaker 2: is really using briefings in the right kind of way.
Speaker 2: The fearing question is really interesting because people can say, well,
Speaker 2: I'll They'll often say I want to talk about trust
Speaker 2: in the digital aid whatever that means. If you say, well,
Speaker 2: how do you want people to feel, they're then really
Speaker 2: thinking about the state of the audience. So they'll say.
Speaker 2: Some people say I want them to for challenged or
Speaker 2: I want them to for inspired. They're two really different speeches,
Speaker 2: and there you get your guidance on tone and content
Speaker 2: and delivery. So that's been really key, is the briefing.
Speaker 2: I'll then put something together so I kind of have this.
Speaker 2: It might be worth describing actually because people say, well,
Speaker 2: how do you put speeches together? And I found so
Speaker 2: I write blocks around particular examples and stories. So Facebook's
Speaker 2: a really good example. A lot of people want me
Speaker 2: to talk about Facebook because of Cambridge Analytica, and so
Speaker 2: I'll have speaking points in a Google doc and then
Speaker 2: every time I think of a new point or it
Speaker 2: changes on stage. I edit that in the Google doc,
Speaker 2: and then I have a slide library that is like
Speaker 2: if you saw the organization, it's so anal like it's
Speaker 2: just it's quite I actually it's quite beautiful in terms
Speaker 2: of information design, not to I didn't do it so,
Speaker 2: but it makes it so easy that I can look
Speaker 2: at it. And I think it comes from writing, is
Speaker 2: that you're literally, oh, pull that story, and I'll pull
Speaker 2: that story.
Speaker 1: So how's that organized? That slide file? Can you can
Speaker 1: you kind a picture of that?
Speaker 2: So it's on drop Box practically, and like the highest folder.
Speaker 2: So my previous work was all called sharing, so that's
Speaker 2: all in one thing. And then the new work's called Trust.
Speaker 2: And then you go in and it will have like
Speaker 2: core concepts, and then you go into core concepts and
Speaker 2: it will have like core things that I've written about
Speaker 2: that sort of my ideas, so like trust leaps being
Speaker 2: one of them, or risk propensity or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: trust evolution. And then you go into that folder and
Speaker 2: it's got all the slides and stories attached to that concept.
Speaker 2: Another folder will have other people's quotes. So these are
Speaker 2: other people that I find interesting that have spoken about
Speaker 2: vulnerability or trust or risk. Another folder will be all
Speaker 2: organized by company. Example, so Uber will have a folder,
Speaker 2: Facebook will half a folder, V and B will have
Speaker 2: a folder.
Speaker 1: This is what I mean, right.
Speaker 2: And then so and things can live in two places,
Speaker 2: but only two places. That's another rule because otherwise you
Speaker 2: end up with too much duplication. And then I have
Speaker 2: a really important folder which is evolving ideas. And these
Speaker 2: are things that really, as I'm saying, this material being tested.
Speaker 2: So this is these ideas I'm testing on the stage
Speaker 2: that I know are not right material ready to be designed.
Speaker 2: And this is when i've I know it's working. So
Speaker 2: very Signful describes it as fishing. So as a comedian,
Speaker 2: you fish and you feel when you've got a bite,
Speaker 2: and the work that you do on stage is turn
Speaker 2: that bite into actually catching the fish. And then for me,
Speaker 2: because slides and stories are so important, I then can
Speaker 2: get to the stage of I know how this is visualized.
Speaker 1: Great, So it's a real.
Speaker 2: Process behind it. So it makes it really easy because
Speaker 2: and I have a rule where I always test something
Speaker 2: new in a speech always, but if you're testing more
Speaker 2: than twenty percent, it's not going to go great. So
Speaker 2: when organizers say I want something completely new. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you don't like this has taking years, Like it takes
Speaker 2: about ten speeches to get one point, like to know
Speaker 2: how to land it. So this is like one thing
Speaker 2: I say to people when they're giving speeches, like, I'm like,
Speaker 2: so you think you're going to stand up there and
Speaker 2: a lot of people just read the speech in their
Speaker 2: head as well. They won't even read it out loud,
Speaker 2: and you think it's going to come out like a
Speaker 2: ted talk, like which wrought you respect? Like this is
Speaker 2: ten thousand hours of practice, right, it's really getting to
Speaker 2: a place where you can have no notes because the
Speaker 2: story it's in you. The points are in you. So
Speaker 2: it's a long winter way of they saying, so I'll
Speaker 2: put something together and then I won't think about it,
Speaker 2: and then I'll come back to it, and then you
Speaker 2: have to send it, usually in a couple of days
Speaker 2: in advance, which is silly exercise because then on the
Speaker 2: way there you're really refining the points and so and
Speaker 2: then I get there and I'm usually I can to
Speaker 2: add a slide or move a slide, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, How do you translate what the organizer will
Speaker 1: say about I want people feeling this way with picking
Speaker 1: out the points and the slides. Like in your system,
Speaker 1: have you got emotion tags as well?
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. No, I don't have emotion tags.
Speaker 2: But so last week I was with one of the
Speaker 2: banks that's in the Royal Commission and it was a
Speaker 2: really tough speech because you're talking about trust in a
Speaker 2: company where trust is in crisis. So you look at
Speaker 2: some of the stories and you're like, I can't use
Speaker 2: that because it's funny, or I can't you know, it
Speaker 2: actually takes material off the table, which can be quite helpful.
Speaker 2: And the other strange thing you find, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just like writing music, right. You could open with this
Speaker 2: story and then finishes this story, and then in another
Speaker 2: speech you flip those things so you're closes, you're opening,
Speaker 2: and they will feel completely different. The bookmarking is key,
Speaker 2: so knowing how you're going to open and knowing how
Speaker 2: you're going to close. And I you know, I've been
Speaker 2: in audiences where people Simon Sinks a great example where
Speaker 2: they're like, I've seen them open like that five times,
Speaker 2: like it's a criticism, and I'm like, because he knows
Speaker 2: exactly where to take the audience. From that point, it's
Speaker 2: like he's opening melody and he's grounding himself on the stage,
Speaker 2: and you will always go somewhere quite different because he's
Speaker 2: listening and he's feeding off what's going on in the room.
Speaker 2: So I think the number of opening stories you can
Speaker 2: have is quite limited. But where you go from that,
Speaker 2: that's the black canvas.
Speaker 1: M that's really interesting. I want to talk about how
Speaker 1: you prioritize incoming requests. I imagine because of your profile,
Speaker 1: you're probably getting a lot of people asking you for
Speaker 1: things to write, things to say, things to be part
Speaker 1: of things. How do you decide what to say yes
Speaker 1: to versus what to say no to?
Speaker 2: It's funny. It's one of my goals I've been working
Speaker 2: on this year, not saying no, but finding myself lesson
Speaker 2: situations where I'm like, why did I say yes? To
Speaker 2: be honest, when there's an email that can I pick
Speaker 2: your brain or it's really really long. I get a
Speaker 2: lot of requests from students doing masters or dissertations that
Speaker 2: aren't part of the course that I teach that you
Speaker 2: have to say no to, and I always try and
Speaker 2: direct them to a resource. I always try and close
Speaker 2: the loop and be helpful. You also get a sense,
Speaker 2: I'm getting a better sense when someone's quite hard to
Speaker 2: shut down, and then being more comfortable that you don't
Speaker 2: have to be the person to reply, so you put
Speaker 2: that on someone on your team. But the thing that
Speaker 2: I've really started to ask myself is what is the
Speaker 2: intentions of this person? Or why are they asked me
Speaker 2: to write this piece? So why they asked me to
Speaker 2: do this interview? And if there's an alignment, So you
Speaker 2: really believe in what this person's doing and you think
Speaker 2: it's good for your work and you think it's interesting,
Speaker 2: then you consider it. That makes it so I think
Speaker 2: sometimes you're like, oh, can you get can you write
Speaker 2: a piece for the Guardian? Okay? And you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know New York Times should totally do that, But
Speaker 2: then you know they A really good example is they
Speaker 2: might be pushing for an op ed on Facebook that's
Speaker 2: completely contrary to your opinion, and you get halfway through
Speaker 2: and you're battling with the editor and you're thinking, well,
Speaker 2: why didn't I ask them where they were coming from?
Speaker 2: Because then you have to abandon ship midway through. So
Speaker 2: being okay, just saying no to people that really actually
Speaker 2: don't value your time because they're just saying pick your brain,
Speaker 2: finding a way to help people when they shut them down,
Speaker 2: and also making you know, a clean.
Speaker 1: No, how do you do that?
Speaker 2: So often it's better when it doesn't come from me.
Speaker 2: She's just not available, no reason.
Speaker 1: Ye, So this will be your assistant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially with speaking request because if you say something
Speaker 2: like even something like I'm really sorry she can't attend,
Speaker 2: what is that why? Or like if we sweeten the
Speaker 2: deal she, you know, and then you have to ask yourself,
Speaker 2: you know, if they come back and they said X
Speaker 2: and then they double the amount, you've put yourself in
Speaker 2: a very tricky situation because then you've said no, and
Speaker 2: then you're showing all money can actually change that, which
Speaker 2: is not good for anyone. Then really, you know. The
Speaker 2: other thing on the calendar is like absolute no go
Speaker 2: days kids, first day of school, like all these things.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what it is. It's different for different people.
Speaker 2: No go days are no go days, and sometimes you
Speaker 2: have to invent a nogator, you know, like if someone
Speaker 2: doesn't really if it's a really tricky note, I'm really sorry,
Speaker 2: but one of the kids is the lead in a play.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And do you have
Speaker 1: of like any parenting hacks that you've learned as a
Speaker 1: working mother that just serve to help things run a
Speaker 1: lot more smoothly at home. You've got you've got two
Speaker 1: kids under five? Is that right?
Speaker 2: One?
Speaker 1: Six? Now?
Speaker 2: Do you know? The funny thing is, I think the
Speaker 2: hats get harder as they get older because they get smarter.
Speaker 2: I think when they're under the age of three is
Speaker 2: distraction hacks, and they don't have a sense of time,
Speaker 2: so you can make it up to them. I've realized
Speaker 2: even now, you know in six is such a beautiful age,
Speaker 2: but they start to develop empathy, they do have an
Speaker 2: awareness of the day of the week. So consistency as
Speaker 2: much as you can is I found is really important.
Speaker 2: So knowing them knowing when I can pick them up
Speaker 2: from school is a big one. So it's on you
Speaker 2: know when mummy is going to pick you up, the
Speaker 2: way you spend that time, So like five to seven
Speaker 2: is their time. And I always find the wills come
Speaker 2: off if you organize something you think can squeeze it in,
Speaker 2: because then they're like, I waited for this time. You
Speaker 2: know you're it's not fair to them, you're really cheating,
Speaker 2: So it's an obvious thing, but being present when you're
Speaker 2: really present is quite key. I am. I think the
Speaker 2: one thing I've really got right is I'm very protective
Speaker 2: of my weekends, so I really one try not to
Speaker 2: work on the weekends and they know that I'm always there,
Speaker 2: holidays are not always possible. And then getting really smart
Speaker 2: around where you need support and not feeling guilty about
Speaker 2: that it's so easy to say, it's really hard to do,
Speaker 2: and even finding the right kind of support on the
Speaker 2: right person that doesn't support you and doesn't judge you.
Speaker 2: Is also becoming more and more interested in my work.
Speaker 2: So I find showing him things saying this was a
Speaker 2: this was really exciting, that said, oh, I've got to
Speaker 2: go and do I've got to go on a plane
Speaker 2: and do this thing. So I've got to go to
Speaker 2: Asthma next week is a really good example. So I've
Speaker 2: been talking to him about mountains and what he thinks
Speaker 2: mountains look like in summer and what an ideas festival is,
Speaker 2: what does he think that is And so he now
Speaker 2: wants to take photos of the mountains to see if
Speaker 2: it's you can engage them in your journey without them being.
Speaker 1: Physically there's that's lovely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was in Vancouver for work a couple of months ago,
Speaker 1: and in the lead up, we're talking about what are
Speaker 1: the animals in Canada? And I bought my daughter's for
Speaker 1: this toy moose and I take photos of it, like
Speaker 1: having a drink and on the toilet and just kind
Speaker 1: of building up this story about this moose. And then
Speaker 1: when I got home, it was so much excitement and yeah,
Speaker 1: just something something to kind of share about where you were.
Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, they don't understand you're tired. That
Speaker 2: hack does not. So I always if I'm really honest
Speaker 2: with them, and I say that I'm just really tired.
Speaker 2: Can you give me a break or can you just
Speaker 2: follow the instruction because I have nothing left? They're like,
Speaker 2: I don't care whether you're tired.
Speaker 1: So true, so true. I have one question before we
Speaker 1: move into kind of some rapid fire finished questions, thinking
Speaker 1: about how you work. What's something that would surprise people
Speaker 1: about what you do, how you do what you do
Speaker 1: and get it done.
Speaker 2: Surprised people how visual it is. I think that's I
Speaker 2: don't start in words, I start in pictures and concepts.
Speaker 2: And I think this because I was trained as an artist.
Speaker 2: You know that's so I fine arts?
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 2: I did? I started Fine Arts, so I will offer
Speaker 2: and like so at the moment, I'm researching the relationship
Speaker 2: between transparency and trust. If you read the academic papers
Speaker 2: like bored and turned off and completely confused within like
Speaker 2: with auty respect about three hours. But if you actually
Speaker 2: start to look at how transparencies represent an architecture and
Speaker 2: how it's represented in films and design, and you start
Speaker 2: to create this board and ideas start to emerge. So
Speaker 2: the process is extremely visual, even though the output is
Speaker 2: more wordspace.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. I love that. Okay, let's finish with
Speaker 1: some some rapid fire questions about what are the things
Speaker 1: that you're consuming, because I think that's something that people
Speaker 1: struggle with, is that there's so much information out there
Speaker 1: and it's hard to know what is the best stuff
Speaker 1: to feed into your brain. So to start with podcasts,
Speaker 1: what's a podcast or two that you're really loving At
Speaker 1: the moment.
Speaker 2: I'm almost embarrassed to with this. I'm listening to where
Speaker 2: should we begin by Esther Forrell. I think it's a
Speaker 2: really I started listening to it for format, not for
Speaker 2: relationship advice, but this idea that you could let listeners
Speaker 2: into a very private window, and that she's kind of
Speaker 2: this pattern. She does pant and recognition, right, so she
Speaker 2: recognizes what's going on between the couples, and she's explaining
Speaker 2: that to you. And then I got like really absorbed
Speaker 2: in it because I don't know if you've listened to it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it's restored my faith in the ability of
Speaker 2: relationships of all kinds to rescue and be restored out
Speaker 2: of all kinds of places of pain and anger. And
Speaker 2: so the power of really talking and listening. I think
Speaker 2: what that to each other is what that podcast is about,
Speaker 2: versus affairs and relationships. So I love Guy Ass. I
Speaker 2: think he's genius at what he does on NPR. So
Speaker 2: how I built this is just great. I love those
Speaker 2: They're great for the bus. I was actually listening to
Speaker 2: Adam Grant's Work Life, Work Life. I really enjoyed Revisionist History.
Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell's first season didn't quite get into the second season,
Speaker 2: and now I found actually I'm listening to a mixture
Speaker 2: of audible books, audio books, and podcasts. So I'm listening
Speaker 2: to Jordan Peterson's Ten Laws or something. It's very dark.
Speaker 2: And then this is going to sound really weird, But
Speaker 2: I will listen to books that I read. Why is
Speaker 2: that so I'm listening to Yva Harari Sapiens, which I
Speaker 2: must have read twelve months ago. It's either because you're like,
Speaker 2: I think I've forgotten something that was quite key. But
Speaker 2: when you listen, you pick up a different thread. So
Speaker 2: for me, the thread that I've picked up, I think
Speaker 2: you hear it at a more macro level then you
Speaker 2: read things. So as I'm listening to it, I've picked
Speaker 2: up this idea that you know, when you create a
Speaker 2: digital tool and society becomes more efficient, then civilization becomes
Speaker 2: smarter about how to use that time. And if you
Speaker 2: look through the history of time, every time we've created
Speaker 2: something that is a device or a tool to make
Speaker 2: things more efficient, man has not filled that time wisely.
Speaker 2: And that's so interesting, right, because when everyone's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this addiction to technology, and it's like, what innately human
Speaker 2: beings have. We got this desire to automate make things
Speaker 2: more efficient, but we can't be still and be bored
Speaker 2: and rest. There's this innate quest to feel time. So
Speaker 2: that's what I've got from listening to the book.
Speaker 1: M I like that. That's really cool. E newsletters. Are
Speaker 1: there any a newsletters that you subscribed to that you
Speaker 1: actually look forward to receiving?
Speaker 2: There's one?
Speaker 1: What is that?
Speaker 2: I generally hate them, really do. I don't know why.
Speaker 2: It's Jesse Hemple, she writes for Wired. I think you
Speaker 2: have to be selected to go on her list, so
Speaker 2: she knows that. I think she's only ever writing for
Speaker 2: about two hundred people, and it's not promotional in any way.
Speaker 2: She literally says, here's the five most interesting things I've
Speaker 2: read this month. And she has a radar across topics
Speaker 2: and publications that are very different from my own. Here's
Speaker 2: the one thing I've written. I think it's like, here's
Speaker 2: something I heard that completely disagreed with. It's she's not
Speaker 2: asking for feedback. It's very much one way, and so
Speaker 2: I think that what the reason why it works is
Speaker 2: she knows exactly the purpose of that newsletter that she reads.
Speaker 2: Really why write widely, and that people want that kind
Speaker 2: of curated information. It's not laid out in any way.
Speaker 2: It's all text based. So I find that. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: generally news autists just feel self promotional.
Speaker 1: I like the idea of a curated list that it's
Speaker 1: being said to Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's very cool.
Speaker 1: Do you then forward that onto a lot of people?
Speaker 1: That's one of the things in the club, and you
Speaker 1: can't let anyone else in. That's that's really interesting. Finally, books,
Speaker 1: what's what's a good book? A physical book or a
Speaker 1: kindle book that that you've read lately that you got
Speaker 1: a lot out of.
Speaker 2: I don't do a kindle, so it's always coffee. Well,
Speaker 2: I have to read a lot of proofs because people
Speaker 2: ask for blurves, which it's very a privileged because you're
Speaker 2: seeing the book in its world states. So then I
Speaker 2: have to read the PDF or audio. What have I
Speaker 2: read recently? So I'm reading on my best I table
Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm reading New Power, a book by
Speaker 2: guy called Jeremy Hyman's and Henry Timms. It's very closely
Speaker 2: related to my works. So it's about how power is
Speaker 2: moving from institutions to these distributed movements and models, and
Speaker 2: it's really interesting. I just received a copy of Hugh
Speaker 2: Mackay's new book. I'm rereading a book called More Human
Speaker 2: by Steve Hilton because I'm really interested about size and
Speaker 2: scale and when things lose their humanness and whether there's
Speaker 2: kind of a perfect state around that. I have the
Speaker 2: Jennifer Egan book Manhattan Beach. So the way I read,
Speaker 2: I should explain I read one thing through to completion,
Speaker 2: and then I'm dipping into other things. So I'll probably
Speaker 2: get through four or five books a month.
Speaker 1: That's pretty good.
Speaker 2: It wow, that's not and that's and then I'll have
Speaker 2: work reading as well. I have to do. That's cool.
Speaker 1: What great recommendations. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I
Speaker 1: so loved learning about how you work.
Speaker 2: It's awesome. Now it makes me sound really aibly attentive.
Speaker 2: It's more fluent than that. It's just it's the organization
Speaker 2: of information people. I think when you lose work, you
Speaker 2: then have to spend a lot of time recreating it.
Speaker 2: So how you capture Even after every speech, I write
Speaker 2: notes on what went wrong and what went right, because
Speaker 2: you think it's going to stay in your mind and
Speaker 2: it won't even a week later. So that's that's probably
Speaker 2: my biggest tip, is how you document what you've learned,
Speaker 2: what you change, and really good organization of information is really.
Speaker 1: I love it. Well I'm going to go away and
Speaker 1: reorganize my slide day. That is it for today's show.
Speaker 1: If you liked my chat Rachel, why not hit subscribe
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Speaker 1: And also, if you found this interview valuable, you might
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Speaker 1: could benefit from hearing Rachel and about how she works.
Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show and I will
Speaker 1: see you next time.