1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: For the next few weeks, I am sharing some of 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: my favorite interviews that I've conducted on How I Work 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: in the last two and a half years of running 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: this podcast. So forward today, I am very excited to 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: replay my interview with Rachel Botsman. Now, I've had her 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: on the show twice and this is the very first 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: time I had her on the show, and I got 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: so much positive feedback on this interview. I seriously had 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: so many people write to me to say how many 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: great tips they got from this episode. So I'm hoping 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: that you will feel the same way at the end 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: of this show. Now, if you don't know who Rachel 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: Batsman is, she is a world or an owned expert 19 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,919 Speaker 1: on technology and trust and the author of two best 20 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: selling books. Her first book was called What's Mine Is Yours, 21 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: which was all about collaborative consumption and her second book, 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: Who Can You Trust, explores how technology is transforming trust 23 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: and what this means for life, work, and how we 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: do business. Rachel is a lecturer at Oxford University and 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: has been recognized as one of the most creative people 26 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: in business by Fast Company and as one of the 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: fifty most influential management thinkers in the world. So we 28 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: cover so much ground in this interview, ranging from how 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: the weather affects her productivity, through to her very unusual 30 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: but very awesome way of crafting presentations, and finally, before 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: we go to the interview, if you're enjoying how I work, 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: I love it if you could take five seconds out 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: of your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to this too. It might be 35 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: just a star rating perhaps or maybe a few words. 36 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: I love getting this feedback. It really is awesome, And 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: thank you to the hundreds of people that they've done 38 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: so it's super lovely and generous of you, and it 39 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: helps other people discover how I work too. So on 40 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: that note, let's head to Rachel to hear about how 41 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: she works. Welcome to the show, Rachel, it's a pleasure 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: to be here now I've heard you referred to as 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: a digital philosopher, not. 44 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: A title I gave myself, other people gave me, I 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: think in the absence of titles. You know, for some 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: reason people they don't want to call me an author 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: or a teacher or whatever it is. But it's actually 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: a very beautiful title because I think I've researched deeply 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: the role of philosophers in society, not just what philosophy is, 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: and a lot of it is giving people frameworks and 51 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: lenses to view the world a little bit differently or 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: to simplify very complex things. And I guess that's what 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: I do, is I study structural shifts enabled by technologies 54 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: that are having a huge impact in your lot, on 55 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: your our lives. So it's a big compliment. Even if 56 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 2: it sounds very PONZI, I. 57 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Think it's very appropriate. And and your most recent book, 58 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: Who Can You Trust, came out I think late last year, is. 59 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: That right, Yeah, so it came out Who Can You Trust? 60 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: Question marks, Yes, it came out in October. And then 61 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: I had the bright idea that I will simultate, I 62 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: would simultaneously launch it across three continents, thinking this would 63 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: be very good in terms of focus and momentum, underestimating 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: that that is physically quite gruelling. 65 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: I'm really keen to delve into the writing of the book. 66 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: So I want to go back in time, back to 67 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: when the publishers said, yes, let's do this book, and 68 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: talk me through the writing the creation of. 69 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: A book like this, I might be slightly different from authors, 70 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: but by the time I go to a publisher, the 71 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: book is fully pretty fully formed in my head, like 72 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: the argument, the stories. And so I wrote my first book, 73 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: What's Mine Is Yours in two thousand and nine, so 74 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: this was a pretty big gap. So I was thinking 75 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: about it for about five years. So I hate the 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 2: proposal process, just to be honest with you, like proposals 77 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: are very strange, like a mixture of a marketing document 78 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: and trying to show your voice. But then once they 79 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: said to the publisher's Penguin, once they say go I 80 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: think I finished in seven months, we start to finish. 81 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: And then with everything that started to go on with 82 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: Brexit and the US elections, they actually chopped. So I 83 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: was meant to deliver in April, and then they said, no, 84 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: you are to deliver end of January, So they chopped 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: so I had to write really fast, and at first 86 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: when they said that, I was like, there's no way 87 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: this is going to happen. And it was good in 88 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 2: a way. I mean, I think it was a little 89 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: too much pressure. But it's always interesting what those time 90 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: constraints can do. 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: Wow. And so what did a typical day look like 92 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: during during what is a very time constrained for a 93 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: few months to write a full book in So what 94 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: does a typical day of writing look like for you 95 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: when you're in that phase? 96 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as I said, I'm probably I don't 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: know if this is different from some authors, and that 98 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: a lot of the interviews were done. And one of 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: the things I find is absolutely keys When people say 100 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: to me, I just can't finish the book, I'm like, 101 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: we'll have you cleared your schedule. And by clearing the schedule, 102 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: I mean nothing. I mean, it's got to be like 103 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: your kid's life and death, your health, like a ball 104 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: meeting you have to absolutely legally attend, because even when 105 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: you have like a one hour meeting or an interview, 106 00:05:53,240 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: you change your state. And so I found that focus 107 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: absolutely critical to find that momentum and to get frustrated 108 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: and bored with the material, but to keep forcing yourself 109 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: to come back to it because you hit these walls, 110 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: and if you've got other things going on, they're the 111 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: excuse or distraction to actually not deal with the tough 112 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: parts that you're trying to push through in the material. 113 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: So would you write for eight hours a day? Like, 114 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: what would that look like? No? 115 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: I mean I think you have what I call, for 116 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: lack of better term, big stride days. So you have 117 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: days where and you don't know when they're going to come. 118 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: So it's not like you can say, well, you know, 119 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: a researcher for four days, it's gonna be a big 120 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: stride date. You just sit down and it's like a powerhouse. 121 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: It's just you forget going to the toilet. You've just 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: it's like you can do four or five thousand words. 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: So I've never been one of these people's like I'm 124 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: going to do fifteen hundred words a day, because sometimes 125 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: some days you'll write two hundred words. But it's the 126 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: key section of the book. So I find those goals 127 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: quite artificial, you know, if you're moving at the right pace. 128 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: So one of the things that I will set is 129 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: like chapter goals, Right, So I will wake up. I 130 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: now have children, so this privilege of the six to 131 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: nine slot, which is absolutely precious for me when it 132 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: comes to writing, has gone. 133 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: So the six to nine am slut. 134 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So because I used to go to bed and 135 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: think about it and write and then want to wake 136 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: up and write, and I could do more in those 137 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: three hours than I could do for the rest of 138 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: the day. And when I first have my son, to 139 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: be honest, I was quite resemful that and I thought, well, 140 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: you know, I'm never going to find that productivity again. 141 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: And then you get to a place of acceptance where 142 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: it's like, well, you know your children are there and 143 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: they don't have any understanding around this, and you have 144 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: to drop them off at school. So one of the 145 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: tricks I've found is how you settle, how you start 146 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: is really key to the rest of the day. And 147 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: a really easy trick I learned is if you're in 148 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: flow the day before, don't finish the paragraph, so like 149 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: get halfway through the paragraph and then kind of write 150 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: the next sentence. And it's really easy to pick up. 151 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: Days where you've like completed something and you're starting again, 152 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: they're harder because you're kind of starting the engine from scratch. 153 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting. We were talking about Adam Grant before we 154 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: started recording, and he gives us the exact same technique 155 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: where he will kind of finish. I think Ernest Hemingway 156 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: described it like packing on a downhill slope or something 157 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: like that. That's interesting to hear that that works for 158 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: you as well. 159 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: And so you. 160 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: Mentioned like the six to nine am slot when you're 161 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: a mom, that's gone, and I've definitely experienced that myself. 162 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: So what replaced that. 163 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: Well, it's not just what replaced that. The other thing 164 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: I think people underestimate is that six to nine slot 165 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: requires a lot of energy, and you've probably experienced if 166 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: you're not present for them, or if you're on a rush, 167 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: they move backwards, they take their clothes off, the thing happens, right, 168 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: So it's saying like the these hours are yours and 169 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: then whatever you do, how you switch from that mode 170 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: to this concentration mode is really important. So I don't know, 171 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: maybe it's because I'm British, but the team making the 172 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: process of making tea properly making tea in a teapot 173 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: and sitting down and drinking it, and then I always 174 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: try and read something that is not mine that I 175 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: think is brilliant, and I'll have a stack of things 176 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: and it quietens you down, especially if it's me in 177 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: a racy morning, or there's something that happened that you 178 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: can't control. And so really what you're doing is controlling 179 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: your state. And anything can happen on the way to 180 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: work or the drop off of the kids, but you're saying, 181 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: I'm in control of that because I have these mechanisms 182 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: and tricks and food and drink and listening as well. 183 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: So I found like podcasts or listening to other books, 184 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: not so that you're totally immersed in it, but you've 185 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: switched mode in a very conscious way. 186 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: So the tea, the reading something that's quite inspiring and powerful, 187 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: has that almost become like a ritual to get you 188 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: into that sort of work state or a flow state. 189 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, definitely. I mean the other thing is I 190 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: have I write with a pan and pen a lot. 191 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: So the other thing is I will write a list 192 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: of things that I've got to get through. And you know, 193 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: when you're in writing mode, like I've got to read 194 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: this paper, I've got to whatever it is, but it's 195 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: still a to do list. And then it's also I 196 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 2: literally write the time the day where I'm going to 197 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: deal with other things, and like that's the religion, that's 198 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: the discipline, right, Like especially on the days where were 199 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: like I really don't want to write, like the temptation 200 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: to just shot for shoes or do email. I always 201 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 2: know when things are going really bad because I do invoicing, 202 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: which I hate. And it's also not been too harm 203 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: with yourself, like those days your mind is doing something. 204 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: I really believe this, it's tripping for a reason, and 205 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: you kind of have to let it do that. But 206 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: also know when okay, I've done that now for three 207 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: days in a row, there's no more billing to be done. 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: It's back to Yeah, I want to come back to 209 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: the big stride days. And I'm curious if you've ever 210 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: thought about what are the precursors to a big stride day? 211 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: Have you ever thought what if they all got in common? 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: I have. 213 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: Sleep number one. It's like absolutely key, like when you 214 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 2: ironically it's when you're not thinking about the work and 215 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: you're well rested. And there's a difference I think between 216 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 2: they don't often all for me anyway, they don't happen 217 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: on a Monday, so it's not about the weekend of 218 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: recharging and resting. It's just literally you've slept really well. 219 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it is tied to 220 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: your physical mental state. They often come when you've been 221 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: wrestling with something, so especially when you're trying to really 222 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 2: get to the heart of something quite complex. I often 223 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: find they come also when you've been inspired by something, 224 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: and it can be something very small, like you read 225 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 2: a sentence or so it's they're the consistent conditions. Weather 226 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: for me also is really big, so I write really 227 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: well when it's raining. I think it's because there's. 228 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: Nowhere else to go and. 229 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: Well suited to the UK climate. But if you look 230 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: on it's the most beautiful day, you know, you'll think, 231 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: when can I go for that walk? Or maybe I'll 232 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 2: read outside in the sunshine. So it's like this inward focusing. 233 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: The impact of the rain that's fascinating. It kind of 234 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: gets you focused because there's nothing else to do to 235 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: procrastinate on outside. Yeah, and I want to know, like 236 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: you talked about invoicing being the kind of thing that 237 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: you know you might go to or you're in sad, 238 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: really very very sad, very understandable when you're trying to 239 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: tackle a tough task. How how do you like, do 240 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: you have you know, anything that you do or rules 241 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: that you set yourself or tricks that you that you 242 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: use to stay focused on tasks that can be hard 243 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: to push through and try to sort of push out 244 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: the various digital distractions that are out there. 245 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's it's really difficult. 246 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: And but this is the most basic advice. The way 247 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: you start your day, you will continue. So I call 248 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: it like that monkey brain that jumping right. So if 249 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: you are going through the check Twitter, check Instagram, check LinkedIn, 250 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: check email check blah blah. You you you've put yourself 251 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 2: physically in this racing mode. I mean, I don't understand 252 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: neurologically what's going on, but you understand physically you feel 253 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: very different. And so I think this. I I'm not 254 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: a believer that you get everything out the way. You know, 255 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: so some people and it works to some people, like 256 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do email eight to nine and then it 257 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: will be a clean slate. There's usually something in that 258 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: email that comes up that you have to deal with, 259 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: or that bothers you, or that requires more than five 260 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: minutes to answer. So the way you start your day 261 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: really sets the rest of the day. And that's become 262 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: far more disciplined around that. And even like I can't 263 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: believe for years my phone was my alarm. It's such 264 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: a stupid thing to do, with all due respect, it's 265 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: so it's like, you know, it's like waking up and 266 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: having a can of coke there, Like it's just there's 267 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: no way I could resist the temptation. And I thought 268 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: I was being super efficient because I thought, you know, 269 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: if I set my arm for six fifteen, my kids 270 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: typically wake up at six forty five, I can do 271 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: half an hour of emails and wow, I'm super mom, 272 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: And then they wake up and everything's clear, and then 273 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: I can have their breakth make their life, you know, 274 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: like listen to the pace of it. There's no way 275 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: you're gonna start your day and be able to Yeah, 276 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: or some people maybe, but not for was there was. 277 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: There a moment in time where you know, you had 278 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: your phone as your alarm and you're checking emails first 279 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: thing in the morning, and it kind of dawns on 280 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: you what am I doing? Or was it a gradual shift? 281 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: I think I realized it, but I didn't change the 282 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: behavior for a long time. I think I realized it 283 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: when I am really shortsighted, so I have to put 284 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: my lenses into sea and I remember like the having 285 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: turning the phone on. I sleep with airplane mode, right, 286 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: so at least it wasn't dinging and really and it 287 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: was pitched back in the room. My husband's asleep and 288 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: it's like, what I happened to my face? And I'm 289 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: like what, I haven't even put my lenses in, Like 290 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like this is not 291 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: how human beings are meant to wake up. My feet 292 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: haven't even touched the ground. And one one of the 293 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: things I try. You know, I'm not a particularly religious person, 294 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: but every morning, when my feet touch the ground, I 295 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 2: try and ask myself, like why am I doing this? One? 296 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: Am I grateful for? What do I want to achieve today? 297 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: And even I think that's my one minute mindfulness, that's 298 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: all I can do. But it's really you know, when 299 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: you come back to the end of the day and 300 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: you think, like did I do that to I achieve that? 301 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: How off balance was I? And it's a for me, 302 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: It's been a form of self reflection that if you 303 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: keep missing it, there's probably something physical or time based 304 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: that you have to address to Maybe you don't have 305 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: enough support, or you don't have enough support the right 306 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: end of the day, maybe you're eating wrong. Whatever it is, 307 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: there's something structurally you can probably change. 308 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: So now I assume you've got an old fashioned ALAM clock. 309 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: Next I do. 310 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and my son's learned how to work it, so 311 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: it went off like four am the other day. I 312 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: was like, okay, bring about the phone. 313 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: Gosh, I love that. Yeah, oh wow. And so you're saying, 314 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: like it's really important to set your day up well 315 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: and how you wanted to flow. And so with that, 316 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: what time would you first check your inbox or Twitter 317 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: feed or Instagram feed on a good days. 318 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: It's different now because I'm not in that writing mode. 319 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: It really, I mean, it really does switch, right. So 320 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: there's no way I stuck to these rules when I 321 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: was on the book tour. I mean, you're like responding 322 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: to media inquiries. So I think this is one of 323 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 2: the key things is you don't have to be in 324 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: this state all the time. But when you're working on 325 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: a project that has a massive artifact or just by 326 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: design requires concentration. You're going to have to redesign and 327 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: restructure your day. Now it looks quite different. So now 328 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: I'm actually back into this, Like I'll do emails nine 329 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: to ten, but then I won't get into the habit. 330 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: I'll turn it off and then I'll probably check it 331 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: again around four o'clock and people who know me and 332 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: know who need to get hold of me, they will 333 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: text me. So that's the thing, Like, there are ways 334 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: that people can get hold of you if it's really 335 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: truly time sens its. 336 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: That's very disciplined. So checking emails twice a day, Yeah, 337 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: that's cool. I want to switch gears and talk about 338 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: presentations because you do a lot of presenting, a lot 339 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: of keynote speeches. I would imagine that that's probably a 340 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: large part of a typical week for you. Would that 341 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: be fair to. 342 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: Say yes and no. So the other thing I learned 343 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: is that when you look at when I look at 344 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: my calendar, I should say and you can go, oh, right, like, 345 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: so I'm going to do four speeches this month, and 346 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 2: there's oh, it looks so nice, evenly distributed, you know, 347 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: one in Los Angeles, one in Munich, like one per 348 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: week for me, it's not the way to structure time 349 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: because speech they require Yes, you do it a lot, 350 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: but they still require prep. Then you've got the travel, 351 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: then you've got the delivery, and then you've got the 352 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: return trip home. So unless they're in domestic, even if 353 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 2: they're domestic, I mean they're Melbourne based, it's four days. 354 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: So if you've got four speeches, it's actually a month gone. 355 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: So I've now found I think of them as delivery weeks. 356 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: I think of them as sort of outwork facing weeks 357 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: where I know I'm going to be speaking and interacting 358 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 2: with a lot of people and then I will have 359 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: so I clustered them. So like last week I had 360 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: seven speeches, but I won't do any now for three. 361 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: And on the calendar it's blocked teaching prep because I'm 362 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: about to deliver a new course at Oxford and that 363 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 2: blocking has been and the blocking I still don't think 364 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: I've got right because I've been blocking in weeks and 365 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: I think I have to be blocking in a Fortnite fortnightly 366 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: even though I'm not working on another big book. So yeah, 367 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: so like article to write block and then I'll do 368 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: like meeting days as well. 369 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, so kind of batching it, I guess is yeah, yeah, 370 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: I want to look at how you prepare for a speech, 371 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: and I'm curious as to how that's changed in the 372 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: last five years, because I've heard you talk about how 373 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: you feel like you've learnt so much around giving a 374 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: good speech and how you do prepare. So can you 375 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: talk me through what does that look like? How do 376 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: you prepare for a speech? 377 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: So I think the main I can't watch early speeches 378 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 2: like it's quite for me. I can see how clumsy 379 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: they are, and in terms of the preparation, and I've 380 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: found that you can speak to the event organizer and 381 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: with all due respect, they'll tell you the number of 382 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: people that's going to be in the room, and they'll 383 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: tell you what the room's like, and they'll tell you 384 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 2: what they wanted to talk about. But then I always 385 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: know if I'm talking to the right person because I say, well, 386 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: why do you really want me there, and why have 387 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: you put me in this particular slot? And how do 388 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: you want your audience to feel? And this was a 389 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: really new question that I started asking. And if they 390 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: said I don't really know, then you're not speaking to 391 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: the right person. You're not speaking to the person that 392 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: said we should have Rachel here, and so insisting that 393 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: you have that briefing with that person is really important 394 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: because otherwise you're going in dark. So that's been really key, 395 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 2: is really using briefings in the right kind of way. 396 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: The fearing question is really interesting because people can say, well, 397 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: I'll They'll often say I want to talk about trust 398 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: in the digital aid whatever that means. If you say, well, 399 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: how do you want people to feel, they're then really 400 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: thinking about the state of the audience. So they'll say. 401 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: Some people say I want them to for challenged or 402 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 2: I want them to for inspired. They're two really different speeches, 403 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: and there you get your guidance on tone and content 404 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: and delivery. So that's been really key, is the briefing. 405 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: I'll then put something together so I kind of have this. 406 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: It might be worth describing actually because people say, well, 407 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: how do you put speeches together? And I found so 408 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: I write blocks around particular examples and stories. So Facebook's 409 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: a really good example. A lot of people want me 410 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 2: to talk about Facebook because of Cambridge Analytica, and so 411 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: I'll have speaking points in a Google doc and then 412 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 2: every time I think of a new point or it 413 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 2: changes on stage. I edit that in the Google doc, 414 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: and then I have a slide library that is like 415 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: if you saw the organization, it's so anal like it's 416 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: just it's quite I actually it's quite beautiful in terms 417 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: of information design, not to I didn't do it so, 418 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 2: but it makes it so easy that I can look 419 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: at it. And I think it comes from writing, is 420 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: that you're literally, oh, pull that story, and I'll pull 421 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: that story. 422 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: So how's that organized? That slide file? Can you can 423 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: you kind a picture of that? 424 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 2: So it's on drop Box practically, and like the highest folder. 425 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: So my previous work was all called sharing, so that's 426 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: all in one thing. And then the new work's called Trust. 427 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 2: And then you go in and it will have like 428 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: core concepts, and then you go into core concepts and 429 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: it will have like core things that I've written about 430 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: that sort of my ideas, so like trust leaps being 431 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: one of them, or risk propensity or whatever it is, 432 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: trust evolution. And then you go into that folder and 433 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: it's got all the slides and stories attached to that concept. 434 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 2: Another folder will have other people's quotes. So these are 435 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: other people that I find interesting that have spoken about 436 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: vulnerability or trust or risk. Another folder will be all 437 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: organized by company. Example, so Uber will have a folder, 438 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: Facebook will half a folder, V and B will have 439 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: a folder. 440 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: This is what I mean, right. 441 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: And then so and things can live in two places, 442 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: but only two places. That's another rule because otherwise you 443 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: end up with too much duplication. And then I have 444 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: a really important folder which is evolving ideas. And these 445 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: are things that really, as I'm saying, this material being tested. 446 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: So this is these ideas I'm testing on the stage 447 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: that I know are not right material ready to be designed. 448 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: And this is when i've I know it's working. So 449 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: very Signful describes it as fishing. So as a comedian, 450 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: you fish and you feel when you've got a bite, 451 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: and the work that you do on stage is turn 452 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 2: that bite into actually catching the fish. And then for me, 453 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: because slides and stories are so important, I then can 454 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: get to the stage of I know how this is visualized. 455 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: Great, So it's a real. 456 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: Process behind it. So it makes it really easy because 457 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: and I have a rule where I always test something 458 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 2: new in a speech always, but if you're testing more 459 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: than twenty percent, it's not going to go great. So 460 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: when organizers say I want something completely new. I'm like, 461 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 2: you don't like this has taking years, Like it takes 462 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 2: about ten speeches to get one point, like to know 463 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 2: how to land it. So this is like one thing 464 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: I say to people when they're giving speeches, like, I'm like, 465 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: so you think you're going to stand up there and 466 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: a lot of people just read the speech in their 467 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 2: head as well. They won't even read it out loud, 468 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 2: and you think it's going to come out like a 469 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 2: ted talk, like which wrought you respect? Like this is 470 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 2: ten thousand hours of practice, right, it's really getting to 471 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: a place where you can have no notes because the 472 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: story it's in you. The points are in you. So 473 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: it's a long winter way of they saying, so I'll 474 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: put something together and then I won't think about it, 475 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: and then I'll come back to it, and then you 476 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: have to send it, usually in a couple of days 477 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: in advance, which is silly exercise because then on the 478 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: way there you're really refining the points and so and 479 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: then I get there and I'm usually I can to 480 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: add a slide or move a slide, but. 481 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, How do you translate what the organizer will 482 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: say about I want people feeling this way with picking 483 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: out the points and the slides. Like in your system, 484 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: have you got emotion tags as well? 485 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. No, I don't have emotion tags. 486 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: But so last week I was with one of the 487 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: banks that's in the Royal Commission and it was a 488 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: really tough speech because you're talking about trust in a 489 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: company where trust is in crisis. So you look at 490 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: some of the stories and you're like, I can't use 491 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: that because it's funny, or I can't you know, it 492 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: actually takes material off the table, which can be quite helpful. 493 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: And the other strange thing you find, I mean, it's 494 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: just like writing music, right. You could open with this 495 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: story and then finishes this story, and then in another 496 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: speech you flip those things so you're closes, you're opening, 497 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: and they will feel completely different. The bookmarking is key, 498 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: so knowing how you're going to open and knowing how 499 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: you're going to close. And I you know, I've been 500 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: in audiences where people Simon Sinks a great example where 501 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: they're like, I've seen them open like that five times, 502 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 2: like it's a criticism, and I'm like, because he knows 503 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: exactly where to take the audience. From that point, it's 504 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: like he's opening melody and he's grounding himself on the stage, 505 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: and you will always go somewhere quite different because he's 506 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 2: listening and he's feeding off what's going on in the room. 507 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 2: So I think the number of opening stories you can 508 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: have is quite limited. But where you go from that, 509 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 2: that's the black canvas. 510 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: M that's really interesting. I want to talk about how 511 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: you prioritize incoming requests. I imagine because of your profile, 512 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: you're probably getting a lot of people asking you for 513 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: things to write, things to say, things to be part 514 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: of things. How do you decide what to say yes 515 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: to versus what to say no to? 516 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: It's funny. It's one of my goals I've been working 517 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: on this year, not saying no, but finding myself lesson 518 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 2: situations where I'm like, why did I say yes? To 519 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: be honest, when there's an email that can I pick 520 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: your brain or it's really really long. I get a 521 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: lot of requests from students doing masters or dissertations that 522 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: aren't part of the course that I teach that you 523 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: have to say no to, and I always try and 524 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: direct them to a resource. I always try and close 525 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: the loop and be helpful. You also get a sense, 526 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: I'm getting a better sense when someone's quite hard to 527 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: shut down, and then being more comfortable that you don't 528 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: have to be the person to reply, so you put 529 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: that on someone on your team. But the thing that 530 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: I've really started to ask myself is what is the 531 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: intentions of this person? Or why are they asked me 532 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 2: to write this piece? So why they asked me to 533 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 2: do this interview? And if there's an alignment, So you 534 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: really believe in what this person's doing and you think 535 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: it's good for your work and you think it's interesting, 536 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: then you consider it. That makes it so I think 537 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 2: sometimes you're like, oh, can you get can you write 538 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: a piece for the Guardian? Okay? And you're like, oh, yeah, 539 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: you know New York Times should totally do that, But 540 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: then you know they A really good example is they 541 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: might be pushing for an op ed on Facebook that's 542 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: completely contrary to your opinion, and you get halfway through 543 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: and you're battling with the editor and you're thinking, well, 544 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: why didn't I ask them where they were coming from? 545 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: Because then you have to abandon ship midway through. So 546 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 2: being okay, just saying no to people that really actually 547 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: don't value your time because they're just saying pick your brain, 548 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: finding a way to help people when they shut them down, 549 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: and also making you know, a clean. 550 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: No, how do you do that? 551 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: So often it's better when it doesn't come from me. 552 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: She's just not available, no reason. 553 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: Ye, So this will be your assistant. 554 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially with speaking request because if you say something 555 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: like even something like I'm really sorry she can't attend, 556 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: what is that why? Or like if we sweeten the 557 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: deal she, you know, and then you have to ask yourself, 558 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: you know, if they come back and they said X 559 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: and then they double the amount, you've put yourself in 560 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: a very tricky situation because then you've said no, and 561 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: then you're showing all money can actually change that, which 562 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: is not good for anyone. Then really, you know. The 563 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: other thing on the calendar is like absolute no go 564 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: days kids, first day of school, like all these things. 565 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what it is. It's different for different people. 566 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: No go days are no go days, and sometimes you 567 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: have to invent a nogator, you know, like if someone 568 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: doesn't really if it's a really tricky note, I'm really sorry, 569 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: but one of the kids is the lead in a play. 570 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And do you have 571 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: of like any parenting hacks that you've learned as a 572 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: working mother that just serve to help things run a 573 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: lot more smoothly at home. You've got you've got two 574 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: kids under five? Is that right? 575 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: One? 576 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: Six? Now? 577 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: Do you know? The funny thing is, I think the 578 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: hats get harder as they get older because they get smarter. 579 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: I think when they're under the age of three is 580 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: distraction hacks, and they don't have a sense of time, 581 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: so you can make it up to them. I've realized 582 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: even now, you know in six is such a beautiful age, 583 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: but they start to develop empathy, they do have an 584 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: awareness of the day of the week. So consistency as 585 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: much as you can is I found is really important. 586 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 2: So knowing them knowing when I can pick them up 587 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: from school is a big one. So it's on you 588 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: know when mummy is going to pick you up, the 589 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: way you spend that time, So like five to seven 590 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: is their time. And I always find the wills come 591 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: off if you organize something you think can squeeze it in, 592 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: because then they're like, I waited for this time. You 593 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: know you're it's not fair to them, you're really cheating, 594 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: So it's an obvious thing, but being present when you're 595 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: really present is quite key. I am. I think the 596 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: one thing I've really got right is I'm very protective 597 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 2: of my weekends, so I really one try not to 598 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: work on the weekends and they know that I'm always there, 599 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: holidays are not always possible. And then getting really smart 600 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: around where you need support and not feeling guilty about 601 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: that it's so easy to say, it's really hard to do, 602 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: and even finding the right kind of support on the 603 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: right person that doesn't support you and doesn't judge you. 604 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: Is also becoming more and more interested in my work. 605 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: So I find showing him things saying this was a 606 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 2: this was really exciting, that said, oh, I've got to 607 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 2: go and do I've got to go on a plane 608 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: and do this thing. So I've got to go to 609 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: Asthma next week is a really good example. So I've 610 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 2: been talking to him about mountains and what he thinks 611 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: mountains look like in summer and what an ideas festival is, 612 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: what does he think that is And so he now 613 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: wants to take photos of the mountains to see if 614 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: it's you can engage them in your journey without them being. 615 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Physically there's that's lovely. 616 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 617 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: I was in Vancouver for work a couple of months ago, 618 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: and in the lead up, we're talking about what are 619 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: the animals in Canada? And I bought my daughter's for 620 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: this toy moose and I take photos of it, like 621 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: having a drink and on the toilet and just kind 622 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: of building up this story about this moose. And then 623 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: when I got home, it was so much excitement and yeah, 624 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: just something something to kind of share about where you were. 625 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, they don't understand you're tired. That 626 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: hack does not. So I always if I'm really honest 627 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: with them, and I say that I'm just really tired. 628 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 2: Can you give me a break or can you just 629 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: follow the instruction because I have nothing left? They're like, 630 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 2: I don't care whether you're tired. 631 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: So true, so true. I have one question before we 632 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: move into kind of some rapid fire finished questions, thinking 633 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: about how you work. What's something that would surprise people 634 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: about what you do, how you do what you do 635 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: and get it done. 636 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: Surprised people how visual it is. I think that's I 637 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 2: don't start in words, I start in pictures and concepts. 638 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: And I think this because I was trained as an artist. 639 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,479 Speaker 2: You know that's so I fine arts? 640 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: Is that right? 641 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 2: I did? I started Fine Arts, so I will offer 642 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: and like so at the moment, I'm researching the relationship 643 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: between transparency and trust. If you read the academic papers 644 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: like bored and turned off and completely confused within like 645 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 2: with auty respect about three hours. But if you actually 646 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: start to look at how transparencies represent an architecture and 647 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: how it's represented in films and design, and you start 648 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 2: to create this board and ideas start to emerge. So 649 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: the process is extremely visual, even though the output is 650 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: more wordspace. 651 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: That's very interesting. I love that. Okay, let's finish with 652 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,479 Speaker 1: some some rapid fire questions about what are the things 653 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: that you're consuming, because I think that's something that people 654 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: struggle with, is that there's so much information out there 655 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: and it's hard to know what is the best stuff 656 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: to feed into your brain. So to start with podcasts, 657 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: what's a podcast or two that you're really loving At 658 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: the moment. 659 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 2: I'm almost embarrassed to with this. I'm listening to where 660 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: should we begin by Esther Forrell. I think it's a 661 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: really I started listening to it for format, not for 662 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 2: relationship advice, but this idea that you could let listeners 663 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 2: into a very private window, and that she's kind of 664 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: this pattern. She does pant and recognition, right, so she 665 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 2: recognizes what's going on between the couples, and she's explaining 666 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 2: that to you. And then I got like really absorbed 667 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: in it because I don't know if you've listened to it. Yeah, 668 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: I mean it's restored my faith in the ability of 669 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: relationships of all kinds to rescue and be restored out 670 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 2: of all kinds of places of pain and anger. And 671 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: so the power of really talking and listening. I think 672 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 2: what that to each other is what that podcast is about, 673 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: versus affairs and relationships. So I love Guy Ass. I 674 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 2: think he's genius at what he does on NPR. So 675 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: how I built this is just great. I love those 676 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 2: They're great for the bus. I was actually listening to 677 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 2: Adam Grant's Work Life, Work Life. I really enjoyed Revisionist History. 678 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell's first season didn't quite get into the second season, 679 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 2: and now I found actually I'm listening to a mixture 680 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: of audible books, audio books, and podcasts. So I'm listening 681 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: to Jordan Peterson's Ten Laws or something. It's very dark. 682 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: And then this is going to sound really weird, But 683 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: I will listen to books that I read. Why is 684 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: that so I'm listening to Yva Harari Sapiens, which I 685 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: must have read twelve months ago. It's either because you're like, 686 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 2: I think I've forgotten something that was quite key. But 687 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 2: when you listen, you pick up a different thread. So 688 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: for me, the thread that I've picked up, I think 689 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 2: you hear it at a more macro level then you 690 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 2: read things. So as I'm listening to it, I've picked 691 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: up this idea that you know, when you create a 692 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: digital tool and society becomes more efficient, then civilization becomes 693 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 2: smarter about how to use that time. And if you 694 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 2: look through the history of time, every time we've created 695 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 2: something that is a device or a tool to make 696 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: things more efficient, man has not filled that time wisely. 697 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 2: And that's so interesting, right, because when everyone's like, oh, 698 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 2: this addiction to technology, and it's like, what innately human 699 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 2: beings have. We got this desire to automate make things 700 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 2: more efficient, but we can't be still and be bored 701 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 2: and rest. There's this innate quest to feel time. So 702 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 2: that's what I've got from listening to the book. 703 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: M I like that. That's really cool. E newsletters. Are 704 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: there any a newsletters that you subscribed to that you 705 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: actually look forward to receiving? 706 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 2: There's one? 707 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: What is that? 708 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: I generally hate them, really do. I don't know why. 709 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 2: It's Jesse Hemple, she writes for Wired. I think you 710 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: have to be selected to go on her list, so 711 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 2: she knows that. I think she's only ever writing for 712 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: about two hundred people, and it's not promotional in any way. 713 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 2: She literally says, here's the five most interesting things I've 714 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: read this month. And she has a radar across topics 715 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 2: and publications that are very different from my own. Here's 716 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 2: the one thing I've written. I think it's like, here's 717 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 2: something I heard that completely disagreed with. It's she's not 718 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 2: asking for feedback. It's very much one way, and so 719 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 2: I think that what the reason why it works is 720 00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 2: she knows exactly the purpose of that newsletter that she reads. 721 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: Really why write widely, and that people want that kind 722 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 2: of curated information. It's not laid out in any way. 723 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 2: It's all text based. So I find that. Yeah, but 724 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 2: generally news autists just feel self promotional. 725 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: I like the idea of a curated list that it's 726 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: being said to Wow. 727 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's very cool. 728 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: Do you then forward that onto a lot of people? 729 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: That's one of the things in the club, and you 730 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: can't let anyone else in. That's that's really interesting. Finally, books, 731 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: what's what's a good book? A physical book or a 732 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: kindle book that that you've read lately that you got 733 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: a lot out of. 734 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 2: I don't do a kindle, so it's always coffee. Well, 735 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: I have to read a lot of proofs because people 736 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: ask for blurves, which it's very a privileged because you're 737 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 2: seeing the book in its world states. So then I 738 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 2: have to read the PDF or audio. What have I 739 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,479 Speaker 2: read recently? So I'm reading on my best I table 740 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm reading New Power, a book by 741 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 2: guy called Jeremy Hyman's and Henry Timms. It's very closely 742 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: related to my works. So it's about how power is 743 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 2: moving from institutions to these distributed movements and models, and 744 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 2: it's really interesting. I just received a copy of Hugh 745 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 2: Mackay's new book. I'm rereading a book called More Human 746 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 2: by Steve Hilton because I'm really interested about size and 747 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 2: scale and when things lose their humanness and whether there's 748 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 2: kind of a perfect state around that. I have the 749 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 2: Jennifer Egan book Manhattan Beach. So the way I read, 750 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 2: I should explain I read one thing through to completion, 751 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 2: and then I'm dipping into other things. So I'll probably 752 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 2: get through four or five books a month. 753 00:42:59,239 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: That's pretty good. 754 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 2: It wow, that's not and that's and then I'll have 755 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 2: work reading as well. I have to do. That's cool. 756 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: What great recommendations. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I 757 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: so loved learning about how you work. 758 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: It's awesome. Now it makes me sound really aibly attentive. 759 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: It's more fluent than that. It's just it's the organization 760 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 2: of information people. I think when you lose work, you 761 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 2: then have to spend a lot of time recreating it. 762 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 2: So how you capture Even after every speech, I write 763 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 2: notes on what went wrong and what went right, because 764 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 2: you think it's going to stay in your mind and 765 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 2: it won't even a week later. So that's that's probably 766 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 2: my biggest tip, is how you document what you've learned, 767 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 2: what you change, and really good organization of information is really. 768 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: I love it. Well I'm going to go away and 769 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: reorganize my slide day. That is it for today's show. 770 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: If you liked my chat Rachel, why not hit subscribe 771 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: so that you get notified when all new episodes drop. 772 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: And also, if you found this interview valuable, you might 773 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: want to share it with someone else that you think 774 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: could benefit. Just click the little share icon, which is 775 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: a box with an arrow pointing out of it generally 776 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: and share it maybe with someone else that you think 777 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: could benefit from hearing Rachel and about how she works. 778 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show and I will 779 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: see you next time.