Speaker 1: Hi, guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life
Speaker 1: One cart. I'm Brittany and I'm Laura, and welcome to
Speaker 1: the rest of Australia who are now also in lockdown.
Speaker 1: It sucks and I'm sad that you're all here with us.
Speaker 1: Who are the only parts of Australia not in lockdown? Now?
Speaker 1: Is it just Western Australia?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Who's keeping track? Everyone?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 1: Everyone's life is shitty and if it's not, I don't
Speaker 1: want to hear about it. So what's been going on
Speaker 1: with you? Then? The fun thing that's been happening in
Speaker 1: our household is that Lola is cutting two teeth and
Speaker 1: she's currently teething. And there is nothing more wild and
Speaker 1: feral than a teething toddler. I feel like the last
Speaker 1: two years for you have been teething, not teething. Just
Speaker 1: like children, it's either there's something wrong with the young
Speaker 1: one or there's something wrong with the oldest one. They're
Speaker 1: never in time and there's always some sort of drama.
Speaker 1: But we thrive in chaos and we love every second
Speaker 1: of earth. And you want to keep ongoing. Woman, It's weird,
Speaker 1: but yes, I do. I have this like weird crazy hormonal,
Speaker 1: Like now I just want to be that this mother
Speaker 1: earth woman who just has lots of children, lives out
Speaker 1: in Byron Bay. Okay, but this is going to blow
Speaker 1: your mind. But yesterday and this is not happening. Also
Speaker 1: just FYI, so we got am I finding out news
Speaker 1: with Live with the Rest of Australia yesterday. As you
Speaker 1: guys know if you listened to last week's episode, I
Speaker 1: got my first period after having Lola, which is big
Speaker 1: because I haven't had a period in like over a year,
Speaker 1: and you know, just about to finish and I was like, look, Matt,
Speaker 1: this means you have to be really really careful now,
Speaker 1: like lots of protection. I want you to double bag
Speaker 1: that thing before coming to bed. You glad wrap that,
Speaker 1: you glad rap that, you foil that. I was like, Matt,
Speaker 1: double bag, I'm back on the pill. I'm going to
Speaker 1: get a Marina put in. Let's go for God. And
Speaker 1: that was like, why don't we just give it one
Speaker 1: crack with no contraception and see what? Oh Matt, what
Speaker 1: is wrong with that? Man? Not? And I hope you,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, did you look at your face? It's like,
Speaker 1: we have time to have sex. We've had a teething child.
Speaker 1: Come on, Brittany, okay, because I feel like that is
Speaker 1: like Russian Roulette. I don't feel like that that is
Speaker 1: a good thing for you and Matt to do. I
Speaker 1: do also think it's more like the odds are on
Speaker 1: our side, because let's be real, like the man is fertile. Look,
Speaker 1: I got a little bit sad this week because the
Speaker 1: Olympics finished. Now I assume I'm on board with the
Speaker 1: rest of Australia. I was so the rest of Australia
Speaker 1: except you, Laura. I was so into the Olympics. I
Speaker 1: loved it. I cried so many times. I had all
Speaker 1: the feelings and it's finished, and I just feel like
Speaker 1: they need to come around more often. I think we
Speaker 1: need to put a petition out for maybe like every
Speaker 1: two years we have the Olympics. I know I said
Speaker 1: on last week's episode that I hadn't gotten into it,
Speaker 1: but I did a real backflip, like I really got
Speaker 1: into it this week. What at the finals.
Speaker 2: You're not allowed to blow in and start to be
Speaker 2: a supporter in the finals. You have to watch from
Speaker 2: the start from the first week.
Speaker 1: First, the first week was boring. I got really I
Speaker 1: just watched the marathon. Guys, I'm so invested. I watched
Speaker 1: a marathon raised No, I got really into it. And
Speaker 1: then I feel the same, I'm like, what am I
Speaker 1: gonna do with myself now that it's finished? Now, I
Speaker 1: also feel sad and I feel robbed that I didn't
Speaker 1: watch it earlier, Like I feel like I've missed out
Speaker 1: on a fundamental part of something that was really important,
Speaker 1: and I didn't get on board until it was too late.
Speaker 1: I am glad that you got on board with the
Speaker 1: Olympics because there is something that I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 1: Did you see the marriage proposal that happened at the Olympics? Yes?
Speaker 1: I did, Okay, So anyone that didn't see it, please
Speaker 1: look it up. And I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: about it, Laura, I want your opinion. There was an argentinianfencer,
Speaker 1: her name is Maria Belen Perez Maurice. Now say that
Speaker 1: ten times fast, long story short. She was doing an
Speaker 1: interview after her very very unfortunate early exit in the Olympics,
Speaker 1: and she was feeling really down in the dumps, and
Speaker 1: then in the background, her partner and coach, Now this
Speaker 1: is long term partner and he's her coach and his
Speaker 1: name is Lucas Torsato. She's doing the interview. Marie's doing
Speaker 1: the interview, She's doing her best to stay happy, and
Speaker 1: in the background, he pops up with a sign basically
Speaker 1: says will you marry me? She doesn't know he's there yet.
Speaker 1: This is on the Live Cross on TV, and the
Speaker 1: reporter's sort of like, oh, like, maybe you should turn
Speaker 1: around kind of thing, and she turns around and she
Speaker 1: sees him holding up this sign. Now, I want to
Speaker 1: make a really really strong point that the sign that
Speaker 1: he's holding up this isn't like some big, beautiful sign
Speaker 1: that's on cardboard that's covered in glitter and diamond's and colored,
Speaker 1: not like you would think a marriage proposal would be
Speaker 1: at the Olympics. It was literally a piece of It's
Speaker 1: like he found a note, like an a four piece
Speaker 1: of paper and he's like a menu or something, and
Speaker 1: he's flipped it over. He's just grabbed a black text
Speaker 1: out and he's scribbled will you marry me please? And
Speaker 1: it's this really really awkward moment. Now, I don't know
Speaker 1: how you feel, or I want to know your opinion,
Speaker 1: but when I watched it, I was so uncomfortable, like
Speaker 1: I could barely watch it. Okay, I have so many feelings.
Speaker 1: I am a middle child, Like if I made it
Speaker 1: to the Olympics, I just want to have my time
Speaker 1: in the sun, Like, do not come for me, do
Speaker 1: not try and propose to me. That is a separate
Speaker 1: occasion and I want to be able to celebrate that
Speaker 1: on a separate day. I agreed, like, you trained for
Speaker 1: years to be at the Olympics. It's your one little
Speaker 1: time in the spotlight. And on top of that, it's
Speaker 1: the sign if you're going to steal my thunder, steal
Speaker 1: it with a glittery sign, like a big piece of cardboard. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it just goes to show that it was
Speaker 1: like really poorly thought out. He did actually come out
Speaker 1: and say, oh yeah that, had she won, he probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have done the proposal on TV. He would have
Speaker 1: allowed her that moment. But also, who cares if she
Speaker 1: won or didn't win. She made it to the freaking Olympics,
Speaker 1: and that was her opportunity to be able to share
Speaker 1: how she felt about her experience, about how hard she'd trained,
Speaker 1: about all the things she did. And then it turned
Speaker 1: into a marriage proposal, which obviously she was happy. She said, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, like there are parts of this that are
Speaker 1: really exciting for her now. But something that you guys
Speaker 1: might not know is that it's not his first rodeo.
Speaker 1: Her coach. He did this eleven years ago at a
Speaker 1: different competition where she had actually won. He proposed to
Speaker 1: her at that competition as well, and she said no.
Speaker 1: He said it. So it was the World Championships eleven
Speaker 1: years ago and he did exactly the same thing, and
Speaker 1: she turned around and she said, are you kidding me? Like,
Speaker 1: how dare you? He went and sat back. You bide
Speaker 1: his time for eleven years and then he did it again.
Speaker 1: He's like, surely at the Olympics, it's not going to
Speaker 1: be a no. Like he probably knew that was his
Speaker 1: chance to get a yes out of it, because he's like,
Speaker 1: she won't say no at the Olympic. It feels a
Speaker 1: little bit inconsiderate, Like I think, if you're going to
Speaker 1: propose to someone that is a day that is special
Speaker 1: in and of itself, you don't have to take and
Speaker 1: make the one thing that they have worked for so
Speaker 1: hard about you and about your relationship because it's not
Speaker 1: about that, Okay, I have something even better. I need
Speaker 1: to trumpet.
Speaker 2: When I was looking up this story about this proposal,
Speaker 2: I stumbled across another proposal and this happened at this
Speaker 2: same Olympics.
Speaker 1: This just happened, I think today or yesterday. He is
Speaker 1: the German football captain. His name is Max Kruse. Now
Speaker 1: I could have pronounced that incorrectly, but.
Speaker 2: This is, Laura, the most awkward proposal you will ever see.
Speaker 1: So his team had just won three to two. He's
Speaker 1: live on TV. Now. I don't know if a lot
Speaker 1: of people know, but partners et cetera can't go to
Speaker 1: the Olympic. Partners can't go. Now this Max, he's the captain,
Speaker 1: he's just one. He's on a live interview cross and
Speaker 1: he stops halfway takes his shirt off, and everyone's like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand what he's doing. He's taking his shirt
Speaker 1: off and underneath he had another shirt, like a black
Speaker 1: T shirt, and in writing on the shirt he asked
Speaker 1: his girlfriend to marry him. Now, the real kicker in
Speaker 1: this part is his girlfriend's not even in the country.
Speaker 1: She's just watching on TV in like another country. So
Speaker 1: she got proposed to when she wasn't even there. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think about this, but if
Speaker 1: you proposed to me.
Speaker 2: You're in a high and you're winning in another country
Speaker 2: and I'm not there on live television, it's probably going
Speaker 2: to be a no.
Speaker 1: No way. I completely disagree with you. I actually think
Speaker 1: that that is so adorable. But they can't even be
Speaker 1: there to kiss or cuddle or like anything. He didn't
Speaker 1: even know the answer, because it's not like he organized
Speaker 1: for her to be like their live and answer. It
Speaker 1: was just he just put it on TV and it
Speaker 1: was so awkward to watch. You have to look at Laura.
Speaker 1: Even the person that was interviewing him didn't know what
Speaker 1: to do. She's looking around so awkward. She's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: do we just cut here? Or I felt awkward watching it? Okay.
Speaker 1: The reason why I think that this is cute and
Speaker 1: it's not awkward one I haven't seen it, so like
Speaker 1: I'll reserve my judgment until I do. But I think
Speaker 1: it's cute because his girlfriend couldn't be there. She was
Speaker 1: obviously she would be watching it on TV. She would
Speaker 1: be so excited for him, and him doing that is
Speaker 1: like a way of him bringing her into that experience,
Speaker 1: like he's just one this is his high and he
Speaker 1: wants her to be a part of that. I think
Speaker 1: that that is like beyond beautiful, even if it makes
Speaker 1: every other person I'm comfortable watching it. I would like,
Speaker 1: you know what, if someone wanted to propose to me
Speaker 1: when they just won whatever sport they were playing, and
Speaker 1: I was there amazing, but I want to be present
Speaker 1: at my own proposal. I feel like that for me,
Speaker 1: that is, you know, I have a few things that
Speaker 1: are non negotiables, and me being there when I'm proposed
Speaker 1: to is one of those things. Well, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you come back to Australia and you and Jordan keep
Speaker 1: doing long distance, it could be over zoomed. So who
Speaker 1: fucking knows. But also, Matt to this day has never
Speaker 1: actually proposed to me, Like, I don't even know one
Speaker 1: hundred percent if we're engaged. Whoa, whoa, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: Matt has never asked me to marry him. He never
Speaker 1: said will you marry me? Didn't you have a really
Speaker 1: wrote some sort of romantic thing on a beach on
Speaker 1: it on in Fiji or something from memory? Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was very romantic. Matt set up a go pro he
Speaker 1: did all the things that you're set up a go
Speaker 1: First Things First content hashtag love. He said, up a GoPro.
Speaker 1: We're on this beach in Fiji. He like, I was
Speaker 1: eight months pregnant. It was so pregnant, and like I
Speaker 1: was past the point where you were supposed to fly
Speaker 1: in pregnancy. But I was like, I am goddamn having
Speaker 1: a baby moon. So we went to Fiji. Anyway. I
Speaker 1: was like, let's go and have a photo of the
Speaker 1: sunset just out the front of the villa, which was
Speaker 1: literally just out the front of where we were staying.
Speaker 1: And Matt was like, no, let's walk up the beach.
Speaker 1: It was a really cute spot up the beach. The
Speaker 1: beach was exactly the same no matter where you were,
Speaker 1: it was just flat. You're like, I am a beach ball.
Speaker 1: I do not want to.
Speaker 2: Walk up the beach, just flat, identical beach the whole
Speaker 2: way up the coast. I was like, okay, So we
Speaker 2: went for this walk, walked past because there was lots
Speaker 2: of people around, So we walked past all the people
Speaker 2: all the way up. He then sets this GoPro up
Speaker 2: and I was like, something is happened here.
Speaker 1: Hang on. So the GoPro wasn't prepared. He said it.
Speaker 1: He was like, wait a minute while I set the gopra, laugh,
Speaker 1: stop it. I'm dying. Matt, be prepared or prepare to fail,
Speaker 1: that's the same. So he sets the gypro up and
Speaker 1: then he just starts crying, like crying and crying. I
Speaker 1: went from thinking maybe he was going to propose to
Speaker 1: me to like telling me that he had a terminal illness,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what is happening. It's the go
Speaker 1: for content. Everyone loves the tears.
Speaker 2: So he gets down on one knee, but he doesn't
Speaker 2: really get down one ae. He's crying, still crying, and
Speaker 2: his knee literally just touches the sand and he gets
Speaker 2: straight back.
Speaker 1: Up and then that was it. He didn't say anything.
Speaker 2: He just cry Why couldn't he keep his knee on
Speaker 2: the ground. I have so many questions in this proposal.
Speaker 2: And then he pulled a ring out and then I
Speaker 2: was like no. Then he said some really nice things
Speaker 2: about how much he loves me and how I'm the
Speaker 2: best and.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah. He was all very cute,
Speaker 1: but he never actually said will you marry me? And
Speaker 1: maybe that's why we're still not married. Two and a
Speaker 1: half years later. So was there a yes to the
Speaker 1: question he didn't ask or was there just like some
Speaker 1: tears and then some cuddles and then I think there
Speaker 1: was just tears and cuddles and then I put a
Speaker 1: ring on and then I was like, we're getting married.
Speaker 1: It's like the end of this, like the Bachelor finale
Speaker 1: all over it. Totally. Yeah, We're just gonna be pep.
Speaker 1: This is it right, We've got two kids. We don't
Speaker 1: need to get married. To be honest, and I know
Speaker 1: I've said this before, but but a wedding is so
Speaker 1: not something that's important to me. Like a wedding, I
Speaker 1: know it's going to be the best day with our friends.
Speaker 1: I know we're gonna have so much fun when and
Speaker 1: if it actually happens, But it's just not the thing
Speaker 1: that's important to me, you know. And I think that
Speaker 1: that comes from having broken families and broken relationships, like
Speaker 1: you know, my parents being divorced. But having a wedding
Speaker 1: has never been something that I've been envisaged as a
Speaker 1: little kid. And I know some people really kind of
Speaker 1: fantasize about what their wedding's going to be like. To
Speaker 1: be honest, I have a very strong feeling that our
Speaker 1: wedding's going to be postpone because of COVID, which is
Speaker 1: really annoying. Don't put that out to the universe. It's
Speaker 1: supposed to be in November, guys, but I'm thinking at
Speaker 1: this rate it's probably going to be postponed. Honestly, who know,
Speaker 1: Like you actually don't know what's going to happen anymore.
Speaker 1: Like maybe the world goes back to normal. The vaccination
Speaker 1: seems to be rolling out really quickly. Maybe we're perpetual
Speaker 1: in lockdown. I think every day as it comes. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. But you know what, even if it does
Speaker 1: get delayed, I know there's so many other people out
Speaker 1: there who have done the same thing and then they've
Speaker 1: still had a wonderful wedding at the end of it. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So on the day in lockdown, we live to tell
Speaker 1: the tale. It'll be something we tell our kids when
Speaker 1: we're older. We have a awesome episode for you all today,
Speaker 1: and this is something that we've been sitting on for
Speaker 1: a little while. We interviewed a psychologist. Her name is
Speaker 1: Sandy Ray. She's amazing. She is amazing. And the thing
Speaker 1: about this episode is because we're getting into I mean
Speaker 1: You guys know where balls deep in Bachelor time already,
Speaker 1: but it goes from the Bachelor season to Bachelorette and
Speaker 1: then straight into maths. And we thought that because we're
Speaker 1: getting well and truly back into reality TV time, we
Speaker 1: would sit down and talk to our psychologists, who is
Speaker 1: an expert in reality TV. Now, what this interview is
Speaker 1: is unpacking why are we so obsessed with reality TV?
Speaker 1: What are the psychological implications of being a contestant on
Speaker 1: reality TV? And also what is the moral and ethical
Speaker 1: responsibility of production and editing when it comes to how
Speaker 1: people and characters? And I say that in quotations how
Speaker 1: characters are portrayed on reality TV. And I know so
Speaker 1: many of you who would listen to this podcast have
Speaker 1: kind of come to us because originally you were Batchet fans,
Speaker 1: and I really think that you're going to enjoy this episode.
Speaker 1: Sandy is such an awesome, warm woman, and she has
Speaker 1: such a really unique insight into reality TV and what
Speaker 1: she thinks is morally okay. I absolutely love speaking to Sandy.
Speaker 1: And the second that we hung up the phone from
Speaker 1: that interview, I said to Laura, we have to get
Speaker 1: Sandy on for so many other things. In the future
Speaker 1: because she's so so knowledgeable, she's so so researched, and
Speaker 1: she's just a barrel of fun. But before we get
Speaker 1: into that, and before we get into it accidentally unfilters, Laura,
Speaker 1: you did tell me you had a recommendation for me,
Speaker 1: and I have been sitting on this waiting for you
Speaker 1: to tell me. What is it? Okay, So for everybody
Speaker 1: who's sitting in lockdown and needs some more content to
Speaker 1: consume on their TVs, my recommendation is Doctor Death Now. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: it is so freaking good. Guys. It is eight episodes.
Speaker 1: They're all about an hour long, so they're like, it's
Speaker 1: really like sitting down and watching a movie, maybe forty
Speaker 1: five minutes. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it's got the guy
Speaker 1: who used to be in Dawson's Creek, you know, Pacey
Speaker 1: from Dawson's Creek, Josh Jackson. I don't know his name,
Speaker 1: but he grew up Shaw Jackson and he is so
Speaker 1: good in this. So the series is about this doctor
Speaker 1: in the United States name doctor Christopher Dunch, who ended
Speaker 1: up being convicted of crimes against the elderly or something
Speaker 1: of that vein, but it follows his series of like
Speaker 1: thirty different cases over a really short period of time
Speaker 1: where he maliciously and with intent caused so much harm
Speaker 1: to his patients. Two of the patients died, and one
Speaker 1: of the patients, who was actually his friend, ends up
Speaker 1: horrifically injured from his surgeries. Now, this is based on
Speaker 1: a true story. It only happened like in the last
Speaker 1: sut of fifteen years and it is just incredibly harrowing
Speaker 1: if you're into true crime. It is such a epic
Speaker 1: mini series. And Matt and I cooked we're up to
Speaker 1: the last episode, which we're going to watch tonight. And
Speaker 1: then apparently there's also a documentary about doctor death on
Speaker 1: stand as well, and there's a podcast, like it's a
Speaker 1: whole thing. You can fully immerse yourself in this man's
Speaker 1: weirdly screwed up, messed up, narcissistic, psychopathic mind. I highly recommend.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the series yet, but I listened to
Speaker 1: the podcast years ago, like sort of when podcasts really
Speaker 1: started to come out. And because I love true crime,
Speaker 1: you guys all know that I can highly highly recommend
Speaker 1: the podcast if you're interested, and it's probably a good
Speaker 1: thing to flow on if you listen to the podcast first,
Speaker 1: then go watch the series. I feel like they go
Speaker 1: really well together because you'll get a lot of information
Speaker 1: from the pod that probably doesn't make it into the series.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm backing your recommendation on that one, Laura,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. I guess one of the really interesting
Speaker 1: things as well is how different the American healthcare system
Speaker 1: is from the Australian healthcare system and how he was
Speaker 1: able to get away with it for so long because
Speaker 1: none of the hospitals wanted to report him for malpractice
Speaker 1: or have his license revoked, because what it would mean
Speaker 1: was that then they would open themselves up to being sued.
Speaker 1: So any of the patients who had been hugely affected
Speaker 1: by his just like no one knows whether it was
Speaker 1: on purpose or whether he was just like poorly trained,
Speaker 1: but the hospitals didn't want to take ownership for it.
Speaker 1: But it also meant that all these patients who were
Speaker 1: so horrifically injured by him weren't given any support or
Speaker 1: any funding. It was just this like, oh, accidents happened
Speaker 1: kind of mentality, But bad things were happening in every
Speaker 1: single one of his surgeries, and it's oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1: Please go watch it. Add it to your list. It's
Speaker 1: on stand. Cannot recommend it enough. All right, let's jump
Speaker 1: into some accidentally I'm filtereds. I have a very sweet
Speaker 1: accidentally unfiltered today. So I'm hoping that you've brought one
Speaker 1: that's saucy, dirty and a little bit messed up. Mine's
Speaker 1: pretty funny. It's not that dirty, but it's pretty funny.
Speaker 1: So uncomfortable you can go first.
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey, girls, I will never live this down. So
Speaker 2: I was trying to spice things up with my boyfriend
Speaker 2: because we'd been together a while, and well, you know
Speaker 2: how it is missionary.
Speaker 1: They did a doggy go crazy. We were at a
Speaker 1: huge work events slash presentation for my company. I'm talking
Speaker 1: maybe about one hundred people. It was so fucking boring.
Speaker 1: My boyfriend was sitting across from me at this big table.
Speaker 1: So I decided to send him a sexy nude that
Speaker 1: I took the week before. I just had a banked,
Speaker 1: you know, for those nude sending emergencies.
Speaker 2: I love that she had a nude sending an emergency bank.
Speaker 2: For some reason, I decided to air drop this nude
Speaker 2: to him. So the name Jason popped up on the screen.
Speaker 2: I watched as it says picture accepted. I look up
Speaker 2: with a smirk to see his response, and I give
Speaker 2: him the sexy eyes from across the table, only to
Speaker 2: see him in deep conversation with the person next to him.
Speaker 2: His phone is on the table, nowhere near him. It
Speaker 2: is then that I get the sinking feeling and I
Speaker 2: know I have met a grave error. My eyes dart
Speaker 2: around the room and I finally catch a man, eyes wide,
Speaker 2: looking at his phone. He's in his mid forties and
Speaker 2: I have never seen him in my life. I see
Speaker 2: him glance around into his lockeyes, and I swear to god,
Speaker 2: we had a whole panish conversation without even saying a word.
Speaker 2: The look on my face must have said it all
Speaker 2: mouth I'm so sorry that wasn't for you, and he
Speaker 2: nervously chuckled and looked away. I have absolutely no doubt
Speaker 2: that that photo is still in this man's phone.
Speaker 1: In my defense, I can't blame him because it was
Speaker 1: the best nude I've ever taken. Oh my god, I
Speaker 1: think the best bit.
Speaker 2: The best bit is that she has to then sit
Speaker 2: there in the room with him, with his with her
Speaker 2: nude on his phone.
Speaker 1: But the moment that you look up with the sex
Speaker 1: sizes to your boyfriend and you're like, hang on, the
Speaker 1: phone's not even in his hand. You're like, this happens
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, not to me. I don't send nudes,
Speaker 1: but this happens to me all the time with people
Speaker 1: send me the wrong things because I don't have my
Speaker 1: name or my phone, it just says iPhone. Yes, So
Speaker 1: I'm always copying like random pictures of people's dogs or
Speaker 1: people's kids or anyway. Yes, just say no. Never accept
Speaker 1: Never accept an air drop unless you know that you're
Speaker 1: supposed to be accepting one. What was he thinking? So
Speaker 1: this happened, and this happened to me literally last week. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't send a nude. But Jordan and I were
Speaker 1: in a line for to pick up some lunch and
Speaker 1: I was trying to send him some phote. He was
Speaker 1: right next to me. I was trying to send him
Speaker 1: some photos and I kept pressing send and he kept
Speaker 1: pressing decline and they were like fifteen photos and I
Speaker 1: did it about four times. I was like, mate, if
Speaker 1: you fucking decline this one more time, I'm not sending you.
Speaker 1: He's like, what are you talking about and then this
Speaker 1: little there's about like a fifteen year old boy behind
Speaker 1: me says, oh, you keep trying to send them to me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm so sorry. He's like I didn't want to
Speaker 1: say anything, but I just kept pressing sand and he
Speaker 1: was like, decline, decline, decline. But his was iPhone as well.
Speaker 1: Oh oh god, all right, I haven't accidentally unfiltered for
Speaker 1: you guys. It is very innocent. It's not like me now.
Speaker 1: I'm actually really proud of us today. Not one mention
Speaker 1: of a Pooh story, no poerson, no farts. Oh it's
Speaker 1: so weird. What are we maturing here?
Speaker 2: We go?
Speaker 1: Okay. As part of my job, we take passport style photos.
Speaker 1: Rules are pretty simple, but there are quite a few
Speaker 1: stipulations around how passport photos can be taken looking straight
Speaker 1: at the camera. I usually hold my hand above the
Speaker 1: cameras that they look right at that spot, no smiling,
Speaker 1: neutral expression. The idea is that it needs to show
Speaker 1: your face in the most natural state possible. So this
Speaker 1: one day, an elderly lady comes in to have her
Speaker 1: passport photo taken. I've run through with her the details
Speaker 1: around how the photo needs to be taken and we
Speaker 1: have a little chat back and forth. When I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: could you just have a seat over here, She asked
Speaker 1: me if she can smile, and I say, oh, you
Speaker 1: can do a little smile, but unfortunately no teeth. She
Speaker 1: looked at me with a confused look on her face
Speaker 1: for a second, and then she goes, oh, okay, they
Speaker 1: want it really natural. Then she bends forward, brings her
Speaker 1: hand up to her face and pulls out her fighting teeth.
Speaker 1: So here we are, yes, Queen, the photo booth, the
Speaker 1: lady sitting there smiling a little smile with absolutely no
Speaker 1: teeth in, holding her teeth in her right hand, waiting
Speaker 1: for me to take the passport photo. It took everything
Speaker 1: within me not to burst out laughing, but it didn't
Speaker 1: have the heart to tell her that she could put
Speaker 1: her teeth back in. So I took the photo with
Speaker 1: her tee. No, No, you did her dirty.
Speaker 2: You should have told her that she can put a
Speaker 2: teeth in, because those passport photos last for ten years.
Speaker 2: She's got ten new photo with no teeth and like
Speaker 2: a gummy smile.
Speaker 1: So you did her so dirty. Well, the thing that
Speaker 1: I think is so great about this, I'm not even
Speaker 1: laughing about this elderly lady having no teeth. I love
Speaker 1: that she just doesn't care. She was like, oh whatever.
Speaker 1: Like the person who's the most uncomfortable in this is
Speaker 1: the person taking the photo. Like the old lady who's
Speaker 1: got no tea, she doesn't care. She's baller. She's like, whatever,
Speaker 1: I'll take my teeth out. I think when you get
Speaker 1: to that point of your life, you've seen some things
Speaker 1: and you've lived some days. I don't think anything bothers
Speaker 1: you anymore. Well, there's one part of me that's like
Speaker 1: I can't wait for that, and the other part of
Speaker 1: me is like, I'd still like to wipe my own asks.
Speaker 1: I'm done the second I can't wipe my own arms.
Speaker 1: Or you just need one of those bidets. You know
Speaker 1: in Italy they have a bidet that like spurts the
Speaker 1: hose on your butt.
Speaker 2: I thought we were gonna say, you just need like
Speaker 2: one of those sticks with like a little wifer on
Speaker 2: the end. I was like, yeah, I think I want
Speaker 2: to chap out like a backscratcher.
Speaker 1: Anyway, guys, let's get into the chat with Sandy Ray.
Speaker 1: We hope that you love it. We hope you get
Speaker 1: something out of this and a little insight into the
Speaker 1: world of reality te Baby. Today on the podcast, we
Speaker 1: have Sandy Ray joining us now. Sandy is a leading
Speaker 1: practicing psychologist. She's based in Melbourne and she has more
Speaker 1: than thirty years professional experience. She has our own private practice,
Speaker 1: Sandy Rain Associates, So we were like, BINGO, let's get
Speaker 1: this woman in. She has so many qualifications in the
Speaker 1: psychological science, which is why we have her here today.
Speaker 1: She also holds a Masters of Criminology and that is
Speaker 1: something that I'm actually very very interested. All you listeners
Speaker 1: know that I froth true crime. You guys might also
Speaker 1: know Sandy from Channel nine is today show the chat
Speaker 1: Room all the Herald's Sun too. But today we have
Speaker 1: Sandy here for a different sort of reason. We want
Speaker 1: to talk about reality TV because well we all know
Speaker 1: we've both been on it. We all know we're sick
Speaker 1: for it. So Sandy, thank you for joining Life on
Speaker 1: cart and please let's get into why we're so obsessed
Speaker 1: as humans with reality TV.
Speaker 2: Well I'm obsessed too, so there we go completely nutally.
Speaker 2: So that's good rule on the same page.
Speaker 1: Wonderful. So thanks so much for coming to join us today.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you are with reality TV. Why
Speaker 1: do you think we all are obsessed?
Speaker 2: Well, I think all of us are psychologists at some way.
Speaker 2: I mean, we all love looking at human behavior. That's
Speaker 2: really the core of it. We like understanding our own behavior,
Speaker 2: We like understanding other people's behavior. We get feedback about
Speaker 2: what am I thinking? Is it right? Is it wrong?
Speaker 2: We get a chance to explore all the emotional range
Speaker 2: of indignation, of anger, of identification. We get to the
Speaker 2: opportunity to be judgmental in the privacy of our own home.
Speaker 2: We get the opportunity to talk to our girlfriends or
Speaker 2: our partners about gas lighting or abuse or arguments and
Speaker 2: things like that. So I think what it is, of course,
Speaker 2: is a reflection of what goes on behind closed doors,
Speaker 2: or I think that's what a lot of people enjoy
Speaker 2: that experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Britain, I were kind of saying earlier. We were like,
Speaker 1: I am sick for it. And the weird thing for
Speaker 1: me is though I was never really into reality TV
Speaker 1: until I did The Bachelor, until I had a bit
Speaker 1: more of an understanding of the back end of it,
Speaker 1: and then I was like, ah, I kind of really
Speaker 1: like this now, and also knowing how much. It actually
Speaker 1: really can change people's lives. Like I know that that
Speaker 1: sounds a bit fluffy, but like for us obviously it's
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on our lives. But I think
Speaker 1: one of the things to me that I was like
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed now as an observer and as a
Speaker 1: watcher is that I can go to work and I
Speaker 1: can talk to the girls that I work with about
Speaker 1: what we've seen on TV. And this sounds bad, but
Speaker 1: it's almost like gossiping about people that we know without
Speaker 1: actually gossiping about people that we know. And I know
Speaker 1: it leads into this behavior of like, oh, I want
Speaker 1: to did you see that thing that this person did
Speaker 1: or did you see that thing that was said? And
Speaker 1: I mean, you have this insight and you feel like
Speaker 1: you're so connected to these people, but we don't actually
Speaker 1: know them.
Speaker 2: And it's a really interesting point. There's a thing called
Speaker 2: social comparison theory in psychology, and I think that's what
Speaker 2: operates a lot of the time in looking at reality
Speaker 2: TV and social comparison theory, as the name implies, is
Speaker 2: comparing ourselves to others. And I think then when we
Speaker 2: go to work or you know, like they're people who
Speaker 2: have parties together, say when married at first side song,
Speaker 2: all the girls have girls' nights on, and then you
Speaker 2: see all the Twitter feeds and it is this comparison.
Speaker 2: It's this not illusion, but it's this comparison of what
Speaker 2: does my life look like. I think that's that's the
Speaker 2: big pull, you know, the big draw card.
Speaker 1: I'm so interested in the social comparison theory because we
Speaker 1: try to preach and we try to say, don't compare
Speaker 1: yourself to others. And I think that that's a very
Speaker 1: romantic and a very beautiful idea, and I think that's
Speaker 1: where it ends. And we all should be trying not
Speaker 1: to compare ourselves because we are different humans, living different
Speaker 1: lives on different paths. But I think, deep down, you
Speaker 1: can never one hundred percent not want to compare yourself
Speaker 1: to someone else's life. In some aspects. I know that
Speaker 1: I still, if I'm honest, I still do it now,
Speaker 1: even other people's relationships. Like you know, ten years and
Speaker 1: I'm finally in a relationship and the first thing I
Speaker 1: do is start to compare it to other people's because
Speaker 1: I don't have a relationship with my own to compare
Speaker 1: it to. Can we ever really one hundred percent stop
Speaker 1: that well.
Speaker 2: You know, comparing ourselves to others actually has a lot
Speaker 2: of value. So the idea of you know, negating that
Speaker 2: and saying, you know, oh you don't be judgmental, but
Speaker 2: actually has It's a safety mechanism for a start, because
Speaker 2: we're making judgments, is that the right person to be with?
Speaker 2: For a start, So you know, fight, flight or freeze?
Speaker 2: You know, have you ever heard of those responses before?
Speaker 1: Not the freeze one.
Speaker 2: It's an evolutionary response, so fight or flight, and then
Speaker 2: the third one they now introduces freeze. So the idea
Speaker 2: of assessing what's going on in our environment, which is
Speaker 2: what judging is, is actually a really good survival mechanism.
Speaker 2: It determines do I need to connect any further this person,
Speaker 2: or there's something that I don't quite like about this person,
Speaker 2: I'm going to pull back and move away. So I
Speaker 2: would argue that being judgmental is actually quite a good
Speaker 2: instinct to develop. I've got three girls, and you know
Speaker 2: this argument about let the kids explore their own you know,
Speaker 2: dynamics with their peers and things like this, and I
Speaker 2: used to go, if I see things, I'm going to
Speaker 2: teach them because I'm ahead of the game. So I
Speaker 2: used to say, for instance, when girls were bullies or
Speaker 2: something was going on, I'm telling you now, and I
Speaker 2: should teach the girls that watch and listen. There will
Speaker 2: be something going on in that child's family, that they're
Speaker 2: a bully, or that they're being viol at school or
Speaker 2: something like that, and sure enough it would all unfold.
Speaker 2: And I would actually teach my girls very explicitly to
Speaker 2: look and watch and observe. And with that comes judgment.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's this sort of, as you say,
Speaker 2: that stereotypical view of don't be judgmental, but in fact,
Speaker 2: judging has a really good social and protective function.
Speaker 1: What do you think that we can consciously learn from
Speaker 1: watching other people's behavior.
Speaker 2: I think the overarching word that I would say is
Speaker 2: learning empathy. If I had to just nail in one word,
Speaker 2: you know, I've got to give you lots of sentences,
Speaker 2: you know, opportunities and a capacity to look at our
Speaker 2: own emotions and how other people develop and relate and
Speaker 2: all the rest of it. But if there would be
Speaker 2: one salient word, I think it's empathy on all the spectrum.
Speaker 2: There's a famous marriage relationship person called Gotman, and he says,
Speaker 2: there's lots of things that create relationships and fractures in relationships,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And he says, if there's one word
Speaker 2: that I could say that causes fights and competition in relationships,
Speaker 2: and that's a lack of empathy. And again I directed
Speaker 2: here that what these programs often don't fail to identify
Speaker 2: is the empathy as a result of being trolled and
Speaker 2: that person at the other end of the trolling behavior.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because I've been on a
Speaker 1: reality TV show or not, but I feel so sorry
Speaker 1: for like almost every contestant because I know that in
Speaker 1: some capacity there's something that we're not seen or there's
Speaker 1: something that's being shown because it is highly produced. And
Speaker 1: I definitely do look at reality TV different now, so
Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for me to talk about
Speaker 1: it in a way like I haven't been on the show,
Speaker 1: but before I did reality TV and I saw a
Speaker 1: little bit more behind the scenes. I don't want to
Speaker 1: admit it, but I was very judgmental. I was constantly like,
Speaker 1: you're an idiot, you're a moron, You're so toxic, you're disgusting, Like,
Speaker 1: and I took nobody tell me what you really think
Speaker 1: for it, you would about you would take because the
Speaker 1: show would show you the character that they want, and
Speaker 1: I'm putting these characters in invert commerce, but because people
Speaker 1: do look at you like you're just a character and
Speaker 1: they forget that you're a human being, a real human
Speaker 1: being that is coming to a type of experiment. But
Speaker 1: I used to look at them and be so judgy
Speaker 1: because I would take at face value what I was shown,
Speaker 1: not knowing there were twenty three more hours worth of
Speaker 1: filming that we didn't see. There's more storylines that we
Speaker 1: didn't see. And so now I'll still look at it
Speaker 1: and say you're stupid, but I'll know that there's more
Speaker 1: to it. I'll be like, that was a dumb comment,
Speaker 1: but there's probably a reason you've said that. So I'm
Speaker 1: trying to be way more.
Speaker 2: Understanding, knowing that what we're shown is not the whole spectrum.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting, you know, I was co hosting a
Speaker 2: show called The Last Resort. I don't know if you
Speaker 2: have ever heard of. That was a Channel nine show,
Speaker 2: and we did the opposite of Married at First Sight.
Speaker 2: So married at first Sight they start off really well,
Speaker 2: and then the relationships typically explode, whereas last result was
Speaker 2: they have got very fractious relationships and we were trying
Speaker 2: to rebuild them. And in the light of married at
Speaker 2: First Sight, we spent an enormous amount of time and
Speaker 2: I was sort of the psychologist in charge, and so
Speaker 2: we spent an enormous amount of time safeguarding. And you
Speaker 2: may or may not remember, well, you probably don't, but
Speaker 2: there was no fallout at all because I was very,
Speaker 2: very concerned. We didn't have late night sessions. We guarded
Speaker 2: the participants really well. They're really well looked after in
Speaker 2: their own villas and with great food, great dynamics, and
Speaker 2: so we had no fallout at all. So I think
Speaker 2: a lot of this sort of behavior and the characters
Speaker 2: that are created really depend on our duty of care
Speaker 2: to the participants. And I think that that's something that's
Speaker 2: becoming more and more glaring with the number of suicides
Speaker 2: and the UK are now having a guidance framework put
Speaker 2: in place, and I think that this is going to
Speaker 2: become front and center that if we don't really safeguard
Speaker 2: and it's all very well to have characters that are
Speaker 2: edited on reality TV, but if we don't seriously take
Speaker 2: on board our duty of care and follow up psychological counseling.
Speaker 2: But even more than that, it's the pretesting that needs
Speaker 2: to be assessed and none stood, and you know, having
Speaker 2: vulnerable personalities going on TV is something that I take
Speaker 2: very very seriously, and it was something that I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time safeguarding. And as a result, none
Speaker 2: of our participants went into a New Idea or Woman's
Speaker 2: Day complaining about any mistreatment or male treatment, you know,
Speaker 2: so that to me was a very proud thing that
Speaker 2: they were all well looked after.
Speaker 1: Well, I do think that there's truth to that sort
Speaker 1: of old adage where there's smoke, there's fire, and I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, there are definitely some reality TV
Speaker 1: shows that people speak really highly of who come out
Speaker 1: as contestants, and then some that are far more heavily criticized.
Speaker 1: And actually, my partner, Matt, he just finished on Dancing
Speaker 1: with the Stars, which I had never even really thought
Speaker 1: about the psychological implications or the social implications. And going
Speaker 1: on a show like Dancing with the Stars, I was like,
Speaker 1: everyone would be happy it's dancing gay dance. Could you
Speaker 1: possibly it's the time of your life? You got seven
Speaker 1: hours a day away from your children. I think it's
Speaker 1: fantastic what happened. Nothing negative happened at all, but it
Speaker 1: was managed really, really well. One of the things I
Speaker 1: was so impressed by was just the follow up care
Speaker 1: and the check ins with the psychiatrists. And they have
Speaker 1: dedicated psychologists on all reality TV shows, but on this
Speaker 1: one as well, they had so much follow up and
Speaker 1: he had to have these mandatory exit interviews with his
Speaker 1: psychiatrist to make sure that he was in the same
Speaker 1: place that they left him before the show basically, and
Speaker 1: even he was a bit like, why do they keep
Speaker 1: wanting to talk to me? I'm fine, but I think
Speaker 1: it's such a necessary part that goes hand in hand
Speaker 1: with reality TV. There is a duty of care and
Speaker 1: responsibility to the people who are participants because I think
Speaker 1: from my own experience, even though everyone thinks you deserve
Speaker 1: this because you signed up for it, you often don't
Speaker 1: actually know what it is that you're signing up for. Like,
Speaker 1: you sign up because you think it's going to be
Speaker 1: a fun experience. You think that you're going to meet
Speaker 1: new people, and hey, maybe you'll meet a guy and
Speaker 1: you'll fall in love, who knows. But I don't think
Speaker 1: that everybody has the full awareness of what they are
Speaker 1: actually signing up for, and that's you know, there is
Speaker 1: there's a huge part of that as well. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's a poor reflection on society as a whole that
Speaker 1: we can say, you signed up for a reality TV
Speaker 1: you knew you were going to get those death threats.
Speaker 1: You knew you were going to get that hate. Reality
Speaker 1: TV should not equal oh, well, you know you're going
Speaker 1: to get death threats. That's a poor reflection on us.
Speaker 2: Look, I couldn't agree more. You know, I was really
Speaker 2: angry about Chappelle Corby going on Essays to exactly your point, Brittany,
Speaker 2: that it's all very well saying that adults they've got
Speaker 2: informed consent, but when you're not mentally in a well place,
Speaker 2: it's a very predatory cluster of behaviors that I think
Speaker 2: some producers pounce on to get ratings, obviously, and I
Speaker 2: think Chappelle Krby was a perfect example of that. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you watched says we did when she
Speaker 2: got a one on one with the SAS team in
Speaker 2: the interviewing room and she just said, I think words
Speaker 2: to the effect of I'm not well, I need help.
Speaker 1: Well goose bumps.
Speaker 2: As a psychologist, I went, what the hell and how
Speaker 2: did you do you get assist?
Speaker 1: There's so different parts of this that I was just
Speaker 1: uncomfortable by, And like, I get it. I get that
Speaker 1: what the training that it's depicting. I get the emphasis
Speaker 1: and this idea that you can kind of recreate. I
Speaker 1: think the big onus on that show was that people
Speaker 1: were going in who had compromised stories, you know, their
Speaker 1: compromised past stories, whether they'd done something where they wanted
Speaker 1: to redeem themselves socially, and so by doing this hard training,
Speaker 1: they had the opportunity of showing their vulnerability and that
Speaker 1: way they can redeem themselves socially in the eye of
Speaker 1: the audience. Which it's an obscure path, but I mean
Speaker 1: it seemed to work for a lot of people. A
Speaker 1: lot of these people had the opportunity to show their
Speaker 1: vulnerable sides and that's what changed public perception about them.
Speaker 1: And actually that kind of leads me into a whole
Speaker 1: other question on this, But what do you think are
Speaker 1: the positives then as a contestant going on a show
Speaker 1: or on a reality TV show, or even from the
Speaker 1: viewer's perspective watching a reality TV show. We hear so
Speaker 1: many of the negative things that can come from reality TV,
Speaker 1: but I genuinely think that there are so many positive
Speaker 1: things that can come from reality TV as well. And
Speaker 1: I'd love to know your opinion and perspective on that.
Speaker 1: I mean, you met me Laura so and we have
Speaker 1: a podcast, baby, we have life on Cut was Born Past.
Speaker 2: There's a positive look, I think, and it's a really
Speaker 2: good point. I think there are lots of positives, you know,
Speaker 2: some of those of what we've talked about for the observers,
Speaker 2: you know, the empathy, the social interaction, comparing and affirming,
Speaker 2: understanding or gas lighting behaviors for instance, getting cues about
Speaker 2: you know, inappropriate behavior, consensual behavior, et cetera. There's lots
Speaker 2: of cues that I think the audience can actually get from.
Speaker 2: Can I just quickly finish off about Chappelle? So the
Speaker 2: only thing I could come up with was that you've
Speaker 2: got forty thousand dollars, and perhaps that forty thousand dollars
Speaker 2: great was for therapy or counseling or whatever she needed.
Speaker 2: So there's a plus that if there's no other income
Speaker 2: source or limited income source, there's a really good way
Speaker 2: of perhaps generating some income, getting your self esteem, batting
Speaker 2: and order redemption. As you rightly said, there are certainly
Speaker 2: benefits to you know, to business. If you want to
Speaker 2: go on reality TV to increase your business profile, you know,
Speaker 2: you might want to be enacting. You might have a
Speaker 2: small business, and this expands the viewing audience. So you've
Speaker 2: prepared to take those sorts of risks. It might be
Speaker 2: because I've been lonely for ten years and I've never
Speaker 2: been in a relationship. Well, I've got nothing to lose,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever character they carve out for me. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm getting the opportunity to experience something which I otherwise
Speaker 2: would never have access to if not for the development
Speaker 2: of reality TV. For some people it would enhance their
Speaker 2: self esteem. They get feedback that they look gorgeous. So
Speaker 2: I think there are lots of benefits.
Speaker 1: In relation to Chappelle.
Speaker 2: I think that's a prime example of when we say redemption,
Speaker 2: because Australia had this one idea of Chappelle. You know,
Speaker 2: for the last however many years, we knew that she
Speaker 2: was accused of drug smuglin she was in prison, and
Speaker 2: that's what we knew about. That was literally it now
Speaker 2: we saw her on and whilst it wasn't good for
Speaker 2: her mental health, it has done something really great for
Speaker 2: her in the public eye. I do believe everybody gets
Speaker 2: a second chance to say who they are and shape
Speaker 2: their life.
Speaker 1: But we would never have seen another side to Chappelle.
Speaker 1: And we only know this because Laura's partner, Matt, was
Speaker 1: on Dancing with the Stars. Chappelle was on Dancing with
Speaker 1: the Stars too, and Matt just sung her praises. He
Speaker 1: was like, she was the nicest person on there. She
Speaker 1: was so generous and it wasn't for show. She would
Speaker 1: go and give food to the homeless after the show,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't in front of anyone. It wasn't so
Speaker 1: anyone would talk about it. She was just a really
Speaker 1: good human And you know, then we went I spoke
Speaker 1: about on the podcast and put that out to however
Speaker 1: many people listen, and we've now been shown Chappelle in
Speaker 1: a different light for who she is on the inside.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't excuse anything she may or may not
Speaker 1: have done in the past. But it's just a prime
Speaker 1: example of what reality TV can do in terms of
Speaker 1: showing Australia and showing the world who you actually are.
Speaker 1: We always hope that we're the exception. Like I know
Speaker 1: when I signed up for The Bachelor, and I think
Speaker 1: that this would probably ring true for anybody who has
Speaker 1: signed up for a reality TV show. You know that
Speaker 1: there is a possibility that you could come off badly
Speaker 1: and that it could end poorly, But you always hope
Speaker 1: as a person that you're the exception. You always hope that, well,
Speaker 1: maybe this will be my chance to meet someone, and
Speaker 1: maybe this has been my chance to you know, put
Speaker 1: my life in a different trajectory. And I think for
Speaker 1: me personally, I was at a point where I was
Speaker 1: a bit bored in my life. I was making the
Speaker 1: same relationship mistakes over and over and only in reflection
Speaker 1: now I can see, like why I had that pattern
Speaker 1: behavior in my relationship. We've got a whole podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting here hoping I'm going to message this out
Speaker 2: of we might not to have.
Speaker 1: Private therapy session. I was really codependent in my relationships,
Speaker 1: and I really kind of just monkey branched into the
Speaker 1: same thing, just fully put myself and the same thing
Speaker 1: into the into a new person who is the exact
Speaker 1: carbon copy of the old person. And reality TV for
Speaker 1: me was a chance to break that cycle because I
Speaker 1: met someone who really wasn't someone I would have dated
Speaker 1: in the real world, Like my partner now is probably
Speaker 1: someone who had I met, I would have kind of thought, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's super handsome, but he's way too nice and he's
Speaker 1: not a challenge and he likes me too much, and
Speaker 1: why is he like and this is gonna sound dune,
Speaker 1: but every girl has done this. Oh my god, why
Speaker 1: is he so obsessed with me? Like, oh, boring done that?
Speaker 1: Because they have. But because there was a bit of
Speaker 1: a challenge in actually meeting him, and it was interesting
Speaker 1: and it was fun, and it exposed me to someone
Speaker 1: who I would never have really connected with or met
Speaker 1: properly in the real world. And then I realized just
Speaker 1: how much I loved him and wanted to be with him,
Speaker 1: and how our lives are intertwined. And I guess for
Speaker 1: me that was a huge positive because it gave me
Speaker 1: some distance from my own personal life to reflect on
Speaker 1: the things I was doing wrong. Like it fully takes
Speaker 1: you out of your normal life. It disrupts everything and
Speaker 1: you are forced, especially in something like The Bachelor or
Speaker 1: in a love related reality TV show, you have to
Speaker 1: spend so much time being introspective and thinking about your
Speaker 1: feelings and thinking about what you want, and nobody spends
Speaker 1: three months just examining themselves and thinking about what they
Speaker 1: want for their relationship. We'll always have these other distractions.
Speaker 1: And for me that was so invaluable.
Speaker 2: And what about the intensity of having so many other
Speaker 2: women around you? That part of it was good for
Speaker 2: you because you could be mindful, But how that like
Speaker 2: look in that social comparison theory sort of blows my mind.
Speaker 2: To be on the women.
Speaker 1: Together, it's a bit maddening, and I think you have
Speaker 1: to be a pretty strong person to be okay with it.
Speaker 1: For me, the reason why I was okay with the
Speaker 1: whole dating him and a whole lot of other people
Speaker 1: dating him was because I was like, well, it's pretty
Speaker 1: much the same as me and Sydney. Anyway. A lot
Speaker 1: of the guys I'd dated in the past cheated on
Speaker 1: me and I'd been sharing them without knowing, So I
Speaker 1: was like, well, if this is happening to me in
Speaker 1: the real world, but I'm being lied to, at least
Speaker 1: this is happening to my face, and I'm okay with it,
Speaker 1: Like I'm accepting of what's happening and nothing is going
Speaker 1: on behind closed doors. So I actually felt a lot
Speaker 1: safer in that environment because I was like, I know
Speaker 1: exactly what's happening, and that was like a sort of
Speaker 1: transparency and honesty that I was not receiving in my
Speaker 1: normal relationships. No, my ex was marrying two people simultaneously
Speaker 1: whilst cheating with eight other women. So this was like
Speaker 1: a holiday for me. I was like maybe, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is fantastic, Sammy. The dating game is vicious. It
Speaker 1: is vicious.
Speaker 2: I think we need to have a talk about your
Speaker 2: capacity to perceive what's going on.
Speaker 1: Oh, we have in all seriousness, and I think that
Speaker 1: this is something we do get a lot of questions
Speaker 1: and like it's something that people do need to consider
Speaker 1: when they want to go on reality TV. For me,
Speaker 1: I was lucky, and I can say this. I was
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because what I went through in the past,
Speaker 1: but as a human and I've been traveling the world.
Speaker 1: I just got back from a three year around the
Speaker 1: world trip. I was fiercely independent. I had been through
Speaker 1: a lot of shit and I was really thick skinned,
Speaker 1: water off a duck's back a lot, and I felt
Speaker 1: going into that situation. Yes I knew what it was,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't worried in the slightest because I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is going to be a really
Speaker 1: great experience. And I feel like I've been through worse.
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I didn't have a sheltered upbringing, I wasn't
Speaker 1: wrapped in cotton wool. And I literally found in all honesty.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how many people can say this.
Speaker 1: I found it so easy. The stresses didn't really bother me,
Speaker 1: The other women dating Nick didn't bother me because I
Speaker 1: was able to compartmentalize what it was, why I was there,
Speaker 1: and just just focus on myself. But when people write
Speaker 1: to me and say should I go on the show
Speaker 1: or not? My first thing is you need to be
Speaker 1: so so okay in yourself and thick skinned. But from
Speaker 1: a psychological perspective, what would you say to people that
Speaker 1: are thinking of not just a bachelor, but like any
Speaker 1: reality TV show? What would what's your advice?
Speaker 2: I think the very first thing you have again that
Speaker 2: being introspective, I think is a really good point. What
Speaker 2: are your vulnerabilities? And you know, you know, Laura, you
Speaker 2: just talked about you know, codependent relationships and you could
Speaker 2: see a pattern unfolding. I think if you don't understand
Speaker 2: your vulnerabilities when you go in and do an audition,
Speaker 2: because what is it that differentiates all the men and
Speaker 2: women who audition. It's their mental health. There's lots of blonde,
Speaker 2: pretty girls, there's lots of articulate women, there's lots of everything.
Speaker 2: But what really differentiates people is their mental health. So
Speaker 2: if you feel that there's a vulnerability, I would have
Speaker 2: really red flash about going on, because that's what the
Speaker 2: producers will hook into. And I can tell you quite unethically,
Speaker 2: I know of psychologists who've been on the shows who
Speaker 2: present the results to producers and they're effectively ignored. So
Speaker 2: the best investment is not blaming producers for their selection,
Speaker 2: but it's you being diligent and being introspective and being
Speaker 2: guarded about what your vulnerabilities are, because if you don't
Speaker 2: know them, this show or any show that you go on,
Speaker 2: is not going to fix them. They're going to magnify them.
Speaker 2: They're going to exploit them, and then you're the one
Speaker 2: that's going to suffer as a result. So anyone who's
Speaker 2: going I think as a mental health practitioner would be
Speaker 2: understand what your vulnerabilities are and is this show because
Speaker 2: we've got enough evidence now of the outcomes of reality show.
Speaker 2: We know trolling happens, we know it affects people's mental health.
Speaker 2: We know that it can actually trigger suicide. I mean,
Speaker 2: the show in and of itself is not going to
Speaker 2: cause suicide. There's obviously issues well established beforehand. But it
Speaker 2: does impact on the life of many people. So you know,
Speaker 2: we've got enough evidence that that exists. So you now
Speaker 2: need to be smart enough to say, right, what is
Speaker 2: the possible outcome for me. You may not be fully
Speaker 2: aware of what it's like to be trolled, you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have a clue what it's like to be trolled,
Speaker 2: you know, for weeks and weeks on end. But I
Speaker 2: think you just need to be very introspective about how
Speaker 2: would it impact on your mental health. It's a mental
Speaker 2: health that drives it. That's the thing that the producers
Speaker 2: hook into.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say one thing back on what
Speaker 1: you had said earlier, Brit, in regards to how easy
Speaker 1: you found the process. I don't want to gloss over
Speaker 1: that because the reason why Britt and I actually met
Speaker 1: was because there was a period where she wasn't coping
Speaker 1: with it, and I reached out to her as somebody
Speaker 1: who was in my position from the year prior. And
Speaker 1: this is actually how we met. And I think if
Speaker 1: you guys have listened to the podcast for a long time,
Speaker 1: you might have heard this story. But Britt was copying
Speaker 1: some serious backlash online and I just knew what that
Speaker 1: felt like, and I knew what it's like to feel
Speaker 1: like nobody wants your relationship to work out, and like,
Speaker 1: at that time, I didn't know whether or not the
Speaker 1: Honey Badger had chosen Nick. I thought, sorry, choose Nick,
Speaker 1: chose himself. I didn't know whether or not he had
Speaker 1: chosen Britt. And I was like, it's such awful, awful
Speaker 1: and soul crushing feeling to think that nobody who's watching
Speaker 1: the show wants you to be with that person, and
Speaker 1: you're with that person, you know, like the shows I
Speaker 1: are airing on TV, and that's actually your boyfriend. So
Speaker 1: I reached out to Britain and I was like, look,
Speaker 1: I know that you think that everyone hates you. I
Speaker 1: just want you to know that everyone doesn't hate you,
Speaker 1: and the small portion of people who are writing your
Speaker 1: messages or they're contacting you, or they're whatever they're saying,
Speaker 1: like they really don't matter, and it goes away very
Speaker 1: very quickly, like it's a very short lived amount of aggression.
Speaker 1: And that's when Britt cork I was like, here's my number,
Speaker 1: call me if you need to have a chat. It
Speaker 1: was like two minutes later and she was in tears,
Speaker 1: absolutely beside herself. So I think it's one thing to say, oh,
Speaker 1: it was a great experience, but we tend to forget
Speaker 1: the bad bits. And that's true for Eddie relationship, it's
Speaker 1: true for Eddie trauma, but kind of suppress it. So
Speaker 1: I think even though overall I would say my experience
Speaker 1: is great, and I think Britt would also say her
Speaker 1: experience was great, we both have parts of that experience
Speaker 1: which were extremely challenging. Yeah, what I want to say is,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about this just before you said that, Laura,
Speaker 1: I was like, I just made that sound way too
Speaker 1: easy and way too good. When I was like, it
Speaker 1: was great, it was really great for me, But it
Speaker 1: did And this is what highlighted this thought, Sandy, was
Speaker 1: when you said, what is your vulnerability? And that did
Speaker 1: happen for me? My vulnerability was this feeling of never
Speaker 1: been enough. I had been in this no relationship for
Speaker 1: ten years nearly or at the time, sorry it seven
Speaker 1: or eight years, and my last relationship was with this sociopath.
Speaker 1: I had this feeling of like not being enough. I
Speaker 1: was like, why doesn't anyone want to date me? You picked?
Speaker 1: We'll have to talk about it again, you can analyze me.
Speaker 1: But that was definitely brought out the whole. That was
Speaker 1: what they angled, like why don't you think anyone's wanted
Speaker 1: to date you? For so long? And then over the
Speaker 1: three months, I was like wow, like is there something
Speaker 1: not right with me? But I was like no, this
Speaker 1: connection with Nick is so great, Like I honestly was like,
Speaker 1: this is it. This is why I've been single so
Speaker 1: long since, why these things have happened because i'mupposed to
Speaker 1: be with Nick. And then Nick dunked me at the
Speaker 1: end and didn't pick anyone, and then that was heightened.
Speaker 1: So my vulnerability of not been enough for no bachelor
Speaker 1: in Australia has ever done that to be like, wow,
Speaker 1: there's something really fundamentally wrong with me. If I'm the
Speaker 1: first person that can't even walk away with someone happily
Speaker 1: at the end, So that definitely is something you need
Speaker 1: to consider. I watch your vulnerability, it will be brought out.
Speaker 1: And then for me, the hardest part was actually after
Speaker 1: the show. Like Laura said, it wasn't the environment so much.
Speaker 1: That was quite nice for me. A lot of the
Speaker 1: girls were complaining about being in a bunk bed and
Speaker 1: they'd never been away from home. I was like, I've
Speaker 1: been in a hostel for three years. This is like luxury,
Speaker 1: even making me breakfast. The hardest part was after, and
Speaker 1: it was the trolling, and like Laura said, like that
Speaker 1: for me, I'd never experienced that. I like to think
Speaker 1: of myself as a good person, and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: can these people be telling me to kill myself or
Speaker 1: telling me how ugly I am and that's why I'm single?
Speaker 1: And I was like, how can they do that when
Speaker 1: I know I'm a good person, but they look at
Speaker 1: you like you're a character.
Speaker 2: Like it is the most absurd reaction. And so of course,
Speaker 2: how I would self soothe from that is saying they're
Speaker 2: mentally unwell. It's not normal conversation, it's not a normal reaction.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's this dissociation that you would then
Speaker 2: have to create I imagine is saying what has gone
Speaker 2: wrong with those people? Because that's what strikes me. It's
Speaker 2: just so abnormal to wish someone dead from a reality show.
Speaker 2: How did you reconcile? You know, you sort of became
Speaker 2: very close with Nick with the fallout from all that
Speaker 2: that he didn't choose anyone? How did you reconcile that?
Speaker 1: I didn't for a while. I still just for a
Speaker 1: long time thought I wasn't good enough and there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with me, and that I needed to sort something out.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because deep down I'm like, there is
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you, Like I know there's not, but
Speaker 1: there's still this stole or am I right? Was like,
Speaker 1: you're great, there's nothing wrong with you, and the one
Speaker 1: on your left is like, well, why the hell does
Speaker 1: no one ever want to be with you? So that
Speaker 1: was something I battled for a long time. It was
Speaker 1: probably like another eighteen months after when I started to
Speaker 1: regain my confidence again and realize that.
Speaker 2: Did you say eighteen months?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's probably three years ago now it Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the show was three years ago. But I mean, and
Speaker 1: I think that that's why I'm really glad you brought
Speaker 1: that up, Brit because I do think it sounded a
Speaker 1: bit oversimplified of like everything was awesome when you're part
Speaker 1: of a team. That really there was a lot of
Speaker 1: flow on from your experience, and I remember having many
Speaker 1: conversations with you before meeting Jordan where you said, I
Speaker 1: don't feel like I'm good enough. I feel like there's
Speaker 1: something wrong with me. A lot of that anguish had
Speaker 1: come from the show, and it had come from public rejection,
Speaker 1: which is a huge thing to deal with. And also
Speaker 1: I mean, like I also feel for the people who
Speaker 1: go through the Bachelor and the same cycle that we've
Speaker 1: been with and they do get chosen and the relationship
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, because going through a public fallout in
Speaker 1: a relationship is huge as well. Like, that's one of
Speaker 1: my biggest fears is Matt and I. We always say
Speaker 1: to each other we're gonna be together forever, But if
Speaker 1: it didn't happen and we weren't together forever, having a
Speaker 1: really public breakup is something that I have a lot
Speaker 1: of fear attached to that, Like, that's really something I
Speaker 1: don't think I would handle very well. But just coming
Speaker 1: back to something you said, and I think it was
Speaker 1: really powerful because I had not thought of it in
Speaker 1: that manner at all. But you're so correct the idea
Speaker 1: of like, the most important thing if you're considering doing
Speaker 1: reality TV is being hyper aware of your vulnerabilities. I
Speaker 1: had never considered that that is what sets you apart.
Speaker 1: And one of the big thing that we say on
Speaker 1: this podcast is that there's power in vulnerability. There's power
Speaker 1: in showing people how you feel, because when you express
Speaker 1: yourself and you explain your feelings, it allows someone to
Speaker 1: be softer towards you. It allows someone to actually reach
Speaker 1: out and help you if you're in need of help,
Speaker 1: instead of being like, I'm fine, everything's fine. I think
Speaker 1: we sometimes tend to do that as women. We put
Speaker 1: up a bit of a front and say that we're
Speaker 1: fine instead of expressing our feelings. However, when it comes
Speaker 1: to reality TV, not just your feelings, but if there
Speaker 1: are some things that don't bring out the best in you,
Speaker 1: if there are different situations where you know, actually, I'm
Speaker 1: not my best self when someone speaks to me like that,
Speaker 1: or I'm not my best self when I'm overtired and
Speaker 1: I'm overworked and I'm feeling a little bit out of control.
Speaker 1: I think be really super hyper vigilant on those situations,
Speaker 1: because that's when I think that you can really lose
Speaker 1: yourself in a reality TV setting. If you're considering signing
Speaker 1: up and doing a show.
Speaker 2: I think that's beautifully well seen, and I think we
Speaker 2: forget that that aftermath that means you become hyper vigilant,
Speaker 2: hyper aroused. We have sleepless nights, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 2: And I think that some of these shows, if you're
Speaker 2: not aware of your vulnerabilities, then you are at greater
Speaker 2: risk of suffering from PTSD as a result of going
Speaker 2: on this show.
Speaker 1: I hey, I wanted to bring it back to something
Speaker 1: a bit more positive because we've just got gone in.
Speaker 1: But I've read a lot of research studies that have said, well,
Speaker 1: A firstly, more than fifty percent this is US based,
Speaker 1: but more than fifty percent of the population tunes into
Speaker 1: reality TV than not. So more people watching reality TV
Speaker 1: than not. And these people are watching it because watching
Speaker 1: drama has been shown to destress a person. Why is that?
Speaker 1: Why is if we're really stress and anxious, do we
Speaker 1: want it from the day? Do we walk in, put
Speaker 1: the reality TV on and then feel better? It's because well, well, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, my life is fucked, but their life
Speaker 1: is way more fucked than my. Is that it? And
Speaker 1: I feel good?
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And I have this summary pie. You
Speaker 2: don't mention a pie. There's three real reasons for that. Escapism, identification,
Speaker 2: and a potential of what I could do on the show.
Speaker 2: So that's that's what I think actually drives it. So
Speaker 2: the destressing is escapism. So if I'm feeling up time,
Speaker 2: if I've had a shit day at work, I come
Speaker 2: home and I watch all these lunatics behaving and crazy.
Speaker 1: Comparing why not Johnny shore over here? Come on, I'm Joe.
Speaker 2: David personally girls, you know, But that's how you sort
Speaker 2: of say, oh, they're luded to do I think you
Speaker 2: even use the words, oh they're morons, they're stupid, they're crazy.
Speaker 2: So I'm catching up on your words. Bridge don't know
Speaker 2: when you're distress and you go, oh, my life is
Speaker 2: not too bad. These people are far worse than what
Speaker 2: I am. So I think that it gives that a
Speaker 2: sense of the world is okay now, And.
Speaker 1: We don't realize to use our brain, do we Absolutely
Speaker 1: it's like we're not It's like our brain has a
Speaker 1: break because it's just this easy watching that we're not
Speaker 1: really thinking. Absolutely. I kind of challenged that I don't
Speaker 1: know if we because like, I think that for us,
Speaker 1: some of the big shows that we've watched, like and like,
Speaker 1: it's all about human behavior and human interactions. We've had
Speaker 1: some really profound conversations off the back of watching reality
Speaker 1: TV where we've gone, Okay, that characteristic is gaslighting. Let's
Speaker 1: have a big unpack and a conversation around gaslighting. Like,
Speaker 1: we have had some really thought provoking conversations, and I
Speaker 1: think with some of the reality TV shows are coming
Speaker 1: out recently, it's actually lending us to really dissect and
Speaker 1: look at human behavior. So I don't know if I
Speaker 1: switch off. That's after the fact, when you're literally sitting
Speaker 1: down watching like I watch your stories. When you watch
Speaker 1: reality TV, you're having a great time, you're having a life,
Speaker 1: if you're having a wine, like if your wind down,
Speaker 1: and then the conversation stem from it. After one of my.
Speaker 2: Daughters said to me and I asked her the question,
Speaker 2: what do you think you get out of watching reality TV?
Speaker 2: And she said, comedic relief. You know you're stressed and
Speaker 2: you get there and also when you come home watching
Speaker 2: reality TV, whether it's Dancing with the Stars or SAS
Speaker 2: or Love Island or whatever, there is a certain voyeurism.
Speaker 2: It gives you an opportunity to explore and look at
Speaker 2: people in a way that you would never ever get
Speaker 2: access to, in a legal, safe way. In the comfort
Speaker 2: of my own home, I can watch what's going on.
Speaker 2: I can watch romantic behavior and even intimate behavior in
Speaker 2: the comfort and the legality of my own home.
Speaker 1: Without putting a camera in someone's house the.
Speaker 2: Thing of goggle Box. Then, you know, you know, I
Speaker 2: think that's part of the bas I think that's part
Speaker 2: of why, you know, it makes sense to me that
Speaker 2: it is a distressor because you can unpack any sort
Speaker 2: of heaviness that you've got during the day and go
Speaker 2: I can just watch their behavior and how crazy they look,
Speaker 2: and I feel good about myself. Ah, the world's a
Speaker 2: safe place again.
Speaker 1: The big things as well. And I think that it's
Speaker 1: all interrelated. Like we are so obsessed with social media,
Speaker 1: which I think has a very similar ethos behind it.
Speaker 1: You know, we get to see this insight into people's lives.
Speaker 1: But reality TV social media have completely changed the landscape
Speaker 1: for what creates a celebrity because before, back in the day,
Speaker 1: our true sort of like supermodels and our celebrities were
Speaker 1: held in such a high regard because they were so
Speaker 1: far away, they were so untouchable and on this huge pedestal,
Speaker 1: and there was some sort of secrecy to their life,
Speaker 1: and that was what we found so engaging and so interesting.
Speaker 1: But with the dawn of social media and with reality TV,
Speaker 1: we now crave that connection. We now crave that insight
Speaker 1: into people's lives, and we actually form a greater love
Speaker 1: for and bond with people who show us more of
Speaker 1: their lives than less of their lives.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So even we see that some Hollywood stars now have
Speaker 1: kind of the new wave of Hollywood stars are far
Speaker 1: more open with their lives, whereas the old school ones
Speaker 1: like your Tom Cruise and Nicole Kimmens and stuff are
Speaker 1: very close still. And I think that that's just going
Speaker 1: to continue to change because what we expect as a
Speaker 1: consumer is changing. What we expect people to show and
Speaker 1: to reveal is completely changing.
Speaker 2: And you've made a really good point. So there's two
Speaker 2: words there that psychology words I'll introduce. It's called para
Speaker 2: social relationships with celebrities is a new terminology that's evolving,
Speaker 2: and there's actually a journal of celebrity studies has now
Speaker 2: raised created in the last decade, So it's looking at
Speaker 2: the development and evolution of celebrity and how we identify
Speaker 2: with Often reality TV people is this parasocial relationship. Their
Speaker 2: life is like my life? Am I as pretty as her?
Speaker 2: Or not as pretty as her? Oh, she's got how
Speaker 2: she relates to her partner? And when a celebrity engages
Speaker 2: in some sort of egregious behavior, that parasocial relationship is
Speaker 2: broken because there's such an identification with the celebrity, and
Speaker 2: that means that often accounts for trolling behavior and abusive behavior.
Speaker 2: So if a celebrity does something wrong, it actually interrupts
Speaker 2: that parasocial relationship, which is what audience have identified with.
Speaker 1: But Sandy, another thing that I really wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you about because I'm obsessed with it is true crime.
Speaker 1: Now I know you have studied criminology. Why is it
Speaker 1: that we are so obsessed with serial killers and murders
Speaker 1: and all these horrific things that happen to people Because
Speaker 1: I don't like watching it. I hate what happens to people.
Speaker 1: But I love listening to crime podcasts. It's like my
Speaker 1: number one no offense Laura, but I listened to Crime
Speaker 1: Model Ourselves. I love listening to true crime podcasts. I
Speaker 1: love watching true crime reality TV shows. I love watching
Speaker 1: where the psychologists go into the prisons and speak to
Speaker 1: serial killers. Why are we sickos?
Speaker 2: Or what?
Speaker 1: Well? I mean.
Speaker 2: I used to work in Barwin Prison, so as a
Speaker 2: forensic psychologist in Barwin, so just the maximum security men's prison.
Speaker 2: It's like the equivalent I think of your silver water
Speaker 2: or gold and jail. So I have actually dealt with
Speaker 2: the state's worst offenders. So I also started off having
Speaker 2: this fascination going, oh my god, look, I think the
Speaker 2: real reason that we're attracted to it is because it's
Speaker 2: behavior that we otherwise wouldn't have access to. So you
Speaker 2: wouldn't engage in imagining murdering people, or torturing people, or
Speaker 2: sexually abusing people. So all these high rating crimes are
Speaker 2: crimes that are really just unimaginable to us, that we
Speaker 2: could never So it's a bit like again looking at
Speaker 2: this voyeur is and coming home in the safety of
Speaker 2: your own home, you're actually able to see what other
Speaker 2: people do, which you otherwise would never have access to.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the draw card of looking at
Speaker 2: crime stories. It's interesting, you know, having worked at the
Speaker 2: cold face with these criminals and offenders both you know,
Speaker 2: sexual offenders and murderers and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2: I actually got in my car every night and slept
Speaker 2: really well, and I think it was because, unlike being
Speaker 2: all packaged and neat and clean, I was actually able
Speaker 2: to communicate on a very deep level with the offenders,
Speaker 2: so I could understand their crimes and of course not
Speaker 2: condone any of it, but I could actually because I
Speaker 2: could understand the developmental pathway and how they got there.
Speaker 2: It was a really curious and interesting process for me
Speaker 2: in terms of how it affected me psychologically. And for
Speaker 2: some reason, I was able to just say, Okay, we're
Speaker 2: done for the day. Today's work's finished. I'm getting the
Speaker 2: car and drive. But when I see stuff on TV
Speaker 2: like crime stories, I'm more affected the way I think
Speaker 2: also the way it's packaged up.
Speaker 1: How do you as a psychologist cope with taking on
Speaker 1: people's stories and emotions and sitting down with people every
Speaker 1: day and listening to, you know, the things that they're
Speaker 1: struggling with. Like, how do you compartmentalize that and not
Speaker 1: take that home and not allow that to emotionally impact you.
Speaker 2: You do a lot of self care, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2: And I don't sit our after hour listening to people
Speaker 2: because I just think that's actually anti therapeutic. So I'm
Speaker 2: very guarded in the number of people I have. And
Speaker 2: one of the core attributes of a good psychologist is
Speaker 2: having a high degree of creativity, because you never know
Speaker 2: what's walking through the door, so you have to be
Speaker 2: on I have to join lots of issues, and what
Speaker 2: excites me is formulating a story about what's going on
Speaker 2: with this person and seeing if I can offer what
Speaker 2: I'm a very strength based person, so that means offering
Speaker 2: my insights to see how we can together navigate some
Speaker 2: resolutions of whatever the problem is. So the issues are
Speaker 2: often very big. So I've written many, many reports for
Speaker 2: women of domestic abuse and represented women, you know, and
Speaker 2: I've done family court reports. I've done children court reports,
Speaker 2: so a whole gamut of reports and people have come
Speaker 2: to me, and I think how I manage it is
Speaker 2: I just see them as humans, no matter what eff
Speaker 2: ups have happened in their life, even for offenders. I
Speaker 2: get to understand developmentally what has happened. And so I
Speaker 2: guess I have a great deal of empathy, and it's
Speaker 2: that empathy that actually carries me through and doesn't harm me.
Speaker 2: I can just go I understand where you've come FRO.
Speaker 2: I'm not giving a moral judgment about if you become
Speaker 2: a sexual offender, about the impact on the victim. I
Speaker 2: just go all on focusing on here is why did
Speaker 2: you get to that position in life.
Speaker 1: I have a question that's based around these true crime shows,
Speaker 1: the ones where the serial killers have passed over, they're
Speaker 1: dead for whatever reason, the ones where they're in jail,
Speaker 1: they go and interview them. My question is, and I
Speaker 1: seem to like toggle between my two thoughts on the situation,
Speaker 1: is do you think we should be giving these people
Speaker 1: a platform because a lot of them just want their
Speaker 1: name out there, don't they They want to be remembered in history.
Speaker 1: Or do you think it's still we're learning enough from
Speaker 1: it and it's important enough that we are airing it.
Speaker 1: So I'm always a bit between like, I am obsessed
Speaker 1: with this and I want to learn from you, and
Speaker 1: I want to know what is going on in your
Speaker 1: head and then there's another part that's like your name
Speaker 1: shouldn't be like famous, We shouldn't be talking about you,
Speaker 1: We shouldn't all know that you killed twenty five women.
Speaker 1: There was also this conversation that came off the back
Speaker 1: of the Ted Bundy series, which was that are we
Speaker 1: romanticizing a serial killer by doing this sort of insight
Speaker 1: into their life and doing this expose? Is that romanticizing
Speaker 1: true crime? Is it romanticizing these horrific events? What doesn't
Speaker 1: help them?
Speaker 2: On us?
Speaker 1: Zach Efron was the lead world was the lead killer.
Speaker 2: Even more recently, you know, just Cinder drnov in the
Speaker 2: christ Church massacres. She said, we will never ever mention
Speaker 2: his name in a public forum again. And to this
Speaker 2: day I don't even know the guy's name because it's
Speaker 2: never been mentioned again because she didn't want to celebrate
Speaker 2: or give him celebritization of his acts of murder. So
Speaker 2: it's a really it's a really good pointing, and it's
Speaker 2: one I don't have an answer to because a lot
Speaker 2: of serial killers are actually sociopaths. So the difference between
Speaker 2: a psychopath and a sociopaths. Psychopath is typically born with
Speaker 2: sociopath is nurtured because of the deficits in their development,
Speaker 2: you know, mental health of parents, sexual abuse, et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera. So that's essentially the difference. So there's a
Speaker 2: lot of and psychopaths is actually a small percentage of
Speaker 2: the population, the criminal population, but a lot of them
Speaker 2: are sociopaths. So if it's a learnt behavior, they would
Speaker 2: no doubt get a lot of play leisure from being
Speaker 2: celebrated because of their criminal conduct. And do we learn
Speaker 2: from it. I'd be very surprised if a potentially violent
Speaker 2: offender would watch a TV program and go not to self,
Speaker 2: must not engage in anti social behavior.
Speaker 1: But do you know what they might learn? Hey, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't wear the same shoes to a crime scene. Correct,
Speaker 1: Hey I shouldn't do this because these are all the
Speaker 1: things that these other people have been busted for. I
Speaker 1: do sometimes watch these shows and think, Wow, so much
Speaker 1: information around how that person got caught and the things
Speaker 1: they did wrong is available, and now it just kind
Speaker 1: of helps someone else to go, Oh, I won't make
Speaker 1: that fuck up. That's what not to do.
Speaker 2: From my clinical experience, most offenders most come from very fragmented, dysfunctional, chaotic,
Speaker 2: drug affected substance abuse lives. So the idea that they're
Speaker 2: going to be introspective when their development is pretty screwy
Speaker 2: from day one. I don't have access to the normal
Speaker 2: social supports or care or love or nurturing or home
Speaker 2: lives that you or I might come from. So the
Speaker 2: idea they're going to watch TV and say, you know, gee,
Speaker 2: how can I reflect on my life and make it
Speaker 2: a little bit better? Because they're just in survival mode,
Speaker 2: and their mode is what can I get out of
Speaker 2: the community or other people that I need to make
Speaker 2: my life a bit better? Whichever way that.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of women that have come out
Speaker 1: and said, like in documentaries and interviews that have said
Speaker 1: that they have learned things from watching as well, like
Speaker 1: they learn to carry pepper spray, they learn to lock
Speaker 1: their doors, they learn to share their location immediately if
Speaker 1: they feel like they're in a vulnerable position.
Speaker 2: No, I think that's right. I think I think law
Speaker 2: abiding people probably learn a little bit more from some
Speaker 2: of these shows than offenders. As I said, I don't
Speaker 2: think offenders sit back and go note to self, I
Speaker 2: won't murder that woman today. No, No, because it's bad publicity,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think that's going to happen, but
Speaker 2: I think you're probably right. Law abiding people become a
Speaker 2: little bit more aware of some of the mechanisms that
Speaker 2: offenders engage in.
Speaker 1: God, I've learned so much from True Crime podcast And
Speaker 1: the only.
Speaker 2: Trouble is then equally it makes you. It may make
Speaker 2: you a little bit more hot, inappropriately hyper vigilant. So
Speaker 2: even though I've worked in the prisons, I'm not hyper
Speaker 2: vigilant or hyper aroused at all. Like I'm not sort
Speaker 2: of like, oh, there's a bang, there's a clue. Oh,
Speaker 2: I've been to make sure I don't engage in any
Speaker 2: of that behavior. But also I think I don't feed
Speaker 2: that behavior. Like, as you say, when you're constantly watching
Speaker 2: podcasts on crime, I think it starts to trigger you,
Speaker 2: you know, and it reinforces very again, a cluster of
Speaker 2: vulnerable behaviors. Nothing wrong with you know, being aware of safety,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. But I think also if you
Speaker 2: are finding that you are getting rather excited about when
Speaker 2: you step outside your front door because I'm on something
Speaker 2: might happen to me, I think you probably need to
Speaker 2: back it off a bit.
Speaker 1: You need to cancel your subscription or Sandy, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. I think I feel like we've covered a lot,
Speaker 1: so we're really like for all the patum pillar to post.
Speaker 1: We have gone everywhere, We've got access to this amazing psychologist.
Speaker 1: Let's just cover everything and then have a personal therapy
Speaker 1: session in there as well. Yeah, I'm going to stay
Speaker 1: on the line and talk to you about my love
Speaker 1: life after this forty five minutes. No, but thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Sandy. Can you please let
Speaker 1: everyone know where they can find you on Instagram or online?
Speaker 1: What are your handles? Oh?
Speaker 2: Look, just Sandy Ray my hand lower case Sandy Ray,
Speaker 2: a lowercase of Instagram. And I've just got a web page,
Speaker 2: so if you look it up, Sandy Ray ari a psychologist.
Speaker 2: All the directions are on my website and you'll get
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: You've been wonderful. Thank you, Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time with us today, Sandy, Thank you.
Speaker 2: So much for having me girls so much. Fuck will
Speaker 2: you guys know we never finished an episode without our
Speaker 2: highlight and our low light of the week.
Speaker 1: It is called suck and sweet and Laura you can
Speaker 1: kick this off. What is your suck? I just want
Speaker 1: to say as well. I love that there's some of
Speaker 1: you out there who have started doing this. There's actually
Speaker 1: a thread that's just started on the Facebook group where
Speaker 1: people are adding their suck and sweets for the week.
Speaker 1: So yes, it is such a nice little way to
Speaker 1: round out what could have been a great or very
Speaker 1: shitty week. Up to you, we love to see, we
Speaker 1: love to see it. My suck for this week has
Speaker 1: got to be that Lolo is teething. I know I
Speaker 1: mentioned at the start, but it just consumes everything. And
Speaker 1: we had gotten to a really good point with her sleeping.
Speaker 1: She had gotten down to like only waking up two
Speaker 1: times a night, which I know for her being six
Speaker 1: months old, there's gonna be some people listening who are like,
Speaker 1: that's not good. Baby should sleep through it. Six months
Speaker 1: My kids don't twice a night. Is great for us.
Speaker 1: I wish my kids slept through the night. But she's
Speaker 1: back to just waking up like a million times a night.
Speaker 1: She's so feral at the moment, and it's really it
Speaker 1: hurts your heart seeing your baby in pain. And you
Speaker 1: know every time she has a mouthful of food or
Speaker 1: bites down on a spoon or something, she gets really upset.
Speaker 1: So that hurts my soul that she is upset at
Speaker 1: the moment. But my sweet for the week, ah, Like,
Speaker 1: my sweet for the week is just I think I
Speaker 1: said this last week, but I'm gonna see it again.
Speaker 1: It's just the extra family time that we've been having.
Speaker 1: And I mean we've spent so much time inside the
Speaker 1: four of us and playing games with Marley, playing hide
Speaker 1: and seek. We don't usually get to have that much
Speaker 1: time doing like cute little family stuff and things that
Speaker 1: you know, normally you're too busy rushing around are You're
Speaker 1: too busy trying to like get other work done. But
Speaker 1: I feel like I've really got to spend time just
Speaker 1: playing with Marley, and I've loved that. So that's my
Speaker 1: sweet for the week. Let me go, that's a cute sweet.
Speaker 1: It's good that you're trying to take something from a
Speaker 1: bad situation, you know, and take the good from it.
Speaker 1: Thanks Brett. I was like, this is where you respond something. Alright,
Speaker 1: what is your second suite? Okay, So I actually have
Speaker 1: a pretty solid suck this week. I lost my phone,
Speaker 1: and I don't mean lost it, like lost it temporarily.
Speaker 1: I haven't had it for five days. It's gone my
Speaker 1: phone has disappeared, so I've been without a phone, and
Speaker 1: then of course I forgot my Instagram and hot Mail
Speaker 1: passwords because you know how on your phone everything's just
Speaker 1: perpetually locked in. Yeah, it's just automated. Such a bad idea,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Oh, and I do all my banking on
Speaker 1: there and do my business. I have just been absolutely
Speaker 1: lost without it. But hopefully I'm only probably two more
Speaker 1: days without a phone and then I'll get another one.
Speaker 1: That was my suck. Wait, did you have everything backed up?
Speaker 1: Pass No? Some stuff was, Yeah, some stuff was, but
Speaker 1: not everything because I took off automatic updates because it
Speaker 1: was really annoying me. But that's a really really silly
Speaker 1: thing to do. I mean, not that you want to
Speaker 1: hear that now after you just thanked your phone, but like, wow,
Speaker 1: I put on automatic updates after having kids. So I've
Speaker 1: lost my phone so many times, and every single time
Speaker 1: I've lost so many, so many photos. But after having
Speaker 1: Laura and Maaly, I was like, I think it would
Speaker 1: be so soul crushing to lose photos of your kids
Speaker 1: because obviously they never go back to being that little again.
Speaker 1: And I know there's going to be someone listening to
Speaker 1: this who it's happened to, and I'm so sorry if
Speaker 1: it's if it's you. But like that's when I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't care if it's annoying doing automatic updates at nighttime.
Speaker 1: We're doing it every night. I mean a back up
Speaker 1: every single photo. And now my cloud I pay like
Speaker 1: an abstronomical amount because I have thousands of shitty screenshots
Speaker 1: and just like stuff that you do not need to save,
Speaker 1: it's all saved. I have never gonna lose anything again.
Speaker 1: Bless yourself, my sweet To be honest, it's pretty it's
Speaker 1: pretty easy. One. Jordan's not playing a tournament this week.
Speaker 1: It's the first week that he hasn't played since I've
Speaker 1: been here, so it's the first week we've actually just
Speaker 1: hung out as a couple and not had a million
Speaker 1: places to be and you know, he goes to play
Speaker 1: tennis for ten hours a day, so whilst I see
Speaker 1: him every day, it's the first time I feel like
Speaker 1: we actually got some real quality time. So that was
Speaker 1: really cute. That is it from us today. Please keep
Speaker 1: your questions coming in because in a few days time
Speaker 1: we have asked gun cut and we absolutely love bringing
Speaker 1: that to you so slide on in to the Instagram
Speaker 1: or lifeun Cut podcast. Just make sure at the top
Speaker 1: of your DM you put their head in ask guncut
Speaker 1: so we know what your questions and please keep those
Speaker 1: accidentally unfiltereds coming in. Also, guys, if you have not
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