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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. This

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Speaker 2: is doctor Justin Cowson and the author of nine books

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Speaker 2: about making your family happier, a dad to six daughters,

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Speaker 2: and the host of this podcast. Every Tuesday on the pod,

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Speaker 2: I answer your questions about how you can make your

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Speaker 2: family happier. If you'd like to submit a question, go

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Speaker 2: to happy Families dot com dot au, click on the

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Speaker 2: podcast link, and then push the record button. Just like

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Speaker 2: this anonymous listener has done.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Justin and Kylie loved the podcast. Recently, my husband

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Speaker 1: and I have noticed our eight year old jumping in

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Speaker 1: whenever we have an argument. She seems to be clickating us,

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Speaker 1: trying to do something funny, or trying to solve our

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Speaker 1: problems by being the media. I have told her that

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Speaker 1: just because we argue sometimes doesn't mean we don't love

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Speaker 1: each other, and then it's okay for people to disagree

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Speaker 1: with each other. But she says she's as to health

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Speaker 1: if HESU wants everyone to be happy. Unfortunately, she's a

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Speaker 1: lot like me and very anxious. I want her to

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Speaker 1: be able to distance herself from other people's problems and

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Speaker 1: not get overly involved. I also don't want her to

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Speaker 1: feel the pressure of making everyone around her happy all

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Speaker 1: the time. Would love your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Anonymous, this is a This is a really thoughtful question.

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Speaker 2: I love the way that you phrased this and the

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Speaker 2: way that you're really trying to make sure that your

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Speaker 2: daughter is understanding that conflict is a normal, natural part

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Speaker 2: of pretty much every relationship, but also wanting to be

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Speaker 2: attentive to her anxieties and her stress and worry around

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Speaker 2: what that relationship is. So let's get a couple of

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Speaker 2: things sorted out. First off, every relationship is going to

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Speaker 2: go through periods of both rupture and repair so long

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Speaker 2: as it's a healthy relationship. In fact, unfortunately, even unhealthy

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Speaker 2: relationships go through that same cycle. We want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that this is both a healthy relationship and b

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Speaker 2: that it's not exacerbating any anxieties and stresses that your

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Speaker 2: daughter has around how stable family life is. So again,

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Speaker 2: let's just look at a definition of anxiety. Anxiety is

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Speaker 2: a short lived, normal, healthy, natural reaction to worries, fears,

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Speaker 2: and apprehensiveness around the future. Okay, that's essentially how the

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Speaker 2: Australian Psychological Society would define anxiety, natural short lived response

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Speaker 2: to a stress where we're worried, fearful, or apprehensive about

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Speaker 2: the future. So you've got an eight year old who's

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Speaker 2: seeing a disagreement between the two people that she absolutely

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Speaker 2: loves the most in all of the world, and she

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Speaker 2: starts to get worried. What if? What if there is

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Speaker 2: something for me to be fearful about here? What if

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Speaker 2: there is a disintegration of the relationship and I'm completely powerless?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm eight years old. So let's ask the

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Speaker 2: question is it okay to argue in front of the kids?

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Speaker 2: And the short answer is, sometimes it's okay and sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's not. It really depends. In fact, it's not really

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Speaker 2: that you argue. Again, arguments are just a normal and

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Speaker 2: natural part of being in a relationship. Kylie and I've

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Speaker 2: been married for six twenty six and a half years.

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Speaker 2: We are absolutely completely besotted by one another. We are

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Speaker 2: completely committed to one another, and we still have disagreements.

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Speaker 2: The question is not that we argue with disagree, it's

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Speaker 2: how we argue and disagree and where and when and

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Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. So if an argument has

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Speaker 2: elements of hostility and aggression. If there's yelling or denigration,

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Speaker 2: or insults or name calling, if there's contempt, if there's

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Speaker 2: stone walling and silent treatment, ignoring one another, then that

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Speaker 2: kind of argument, that kind of disagreement is unhealthy. And

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Speaker 2: it absolutely I mean, number one, it doesn't belong in

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Speaker 2: a relationship, not in a healthy relationship. But number two,

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Speaker 2: it definitely doesn't belong in front of the kids. It's

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Speaker 2: just not good for them. The focus of any disagreement

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Speaker 2: tends to be resolution. I think that instead that we

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Speaker 2: want to make sure that the focus is on regulation.

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Speaker 2: See if we can regulate effectively during the argument, whether

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Speaker 2: we come to a resolution or not. We've demonstrated that

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Speaker 2: we can have a disagreement in a way that, even

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Speaker 2: about a really hot button issue, we can have this

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Speaker 2: disagreement in a way that is respectful, considerate, empathic, and

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Speaker 2: kind towards the other. So I favor regulation over resolution,

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Speaker 2: even in arguments. As much as we tend to have

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Speaker 2: a bias towards resolution. It makes sense, right, I want

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Speaker 2: this resolved, I want an outcome. I want certainly, I

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Speaker 2: want to know where we're going. It's some interesting research

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Speaker 2: from John Gotman. I haven't looked at this data for

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Speaker 2: a number of years now, so I might be getting

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Speaker 2: this slightly wrong. But John Gotman's research shows that when

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Speaker 2: it comes to arguing, couples tend to argue primarily about nothing.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that he finds is that the

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Speaker 2: overwhelming majority of things that we argue about are enduring.

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Speaker 2: We don't stop arguing about them because we suddenly get

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Speaker 2: a resolution. We continue to argue about the person who

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Speaker 2: doesn't do their job, or the person who has a

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Speaker 2: difficult mother who keeps un interfering, or we argue about

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Speaker 2: the children. Like we have these enduring arguments about things

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Speaker 2: that somebody's always late, somebody won't put their screen away.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing that we've been arguing about for

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Speaker 2: five years and it's still going on. Somebody leaves their

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Speaker 2: tea bag in the sink. It's that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: So here's what I'm looking for in terms of a

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Speaker 2: disagreement that you're having with your husband or wife or partner.

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Speaker 2: Let's focus on the quality of the interaction. Let's focus

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Speaker 2: on the regulation, because the resolution is probably either not

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Speaker 2: going to happen or it's going to be short term,

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Speaker 2: and then something else is going to come up. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: how do we get this right? We model listening, and

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Speaker 2: we model perspective taking, and we model collaboration. An example

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Speaker 2: that Kylie and I have had in the last little

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Speaker 2: while revolved around homeschooling. Homeschooling is getting us down. It's

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Speaker 2: pretty hardcore. There's no respite. It is enduring and challenging

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Speaker 2: and ongoing. And I would very much like our children

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Speaker 2: to be back at school, although I can see the

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Speaker 2: good that homeschooling is doing for them. So the conversation

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Speaker 2: goes like this, I want to have a chat with

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Speaker 2: you about homeschooling. You and I are not on the

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Speaker 2: same page here. I really want the kids back at school.

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Speaker 2: I get the same that you don't want them back yet.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me where you're up to with this?

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Speaker 2: And so now I'm modeling listening, and as Kylie talks

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Speaker 2: to me, I'm saying, yeah, I get it, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is what you're saying. So here's where you're at. So

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Speaker 2: there's the modeling of perspective taking, and then we step

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Speaker 2: into this all right, So where do we go from here?

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Speaker 2: I mean, i'd like them back next term. You're definitely

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Speaker 2: saying that you would like the back next term, but

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Speaker 2: it's not the right time. What are you thinking? And

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Speaker 2: the resolution is for now, we're going to keep things

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Speaker 2: as they are, but we'll revisit again in three months

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Speaker 2: or in six months time. So it's the quality of

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Speaker 2: the regulation that helps us to get there, Because what

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Speaker 2: I honestly want to do is I want to walk

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Speaker 2: in and slam my hand down on the table and

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Speaker 2: say I'm sick of it. I want my wife back,

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Speaker 2: i want our lives back. The kids need to go

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Speaker 2: to school. This is not working, That's what I want

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Speaker 2: to say. But it's not fair, and it's also not

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Speaker 2: entirely true if you blow it. The other thing that

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Speaker 2: your kids need to see is that you know how

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Speaker 2: to model repairing the relationship. You need to know how

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Speaker 2: to model forgiveness. Hopefully that helps in terms of elevating

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Speaker 2: regulation and focusing less on resolutional though hopefully you can

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Speaker 2: find both. In terms of your daughter's interaction, this is tricky.

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Speaker 2: I want to when I hear my children intervene in

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Speaker 2: a disagreement that they don't like, I want to look

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Speaker 2: at my childre and say, you stay out of this.

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Speaker 2: Right high emotions, low intelligence. I'm starting to get steamed up.

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Speaker 2: Get out of here. This is not between you and

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Speaker 2: me and mum. This is between mom and I. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about you, not too. That's the kind of thing

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Speaker 2: that I want to say, but it's not healthy. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't help. So what I would say is this, be

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Speaker 2: sensitive to her needs. Pause if you think you're going

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Speaker 2: to blow, let her know that you really appreciate that

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Speaker 2: she's worried about this, and then just consider how you're disagreeing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe park the conversation, come back to it later when

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Speaker 2: she's not there, or highlight you know what. We're not

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Speaker 2: listening to each other very well, Let's try this again esther.

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Speaker 2: Perell's big thing is rupture is inevitable. Repair is vital.

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Speaker 2: And I think that if we remember that in concert

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Speaker 2: with resolution versus regulation, you're probably going to find that

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Speaker 2: your disagreements become more productive and your thought it becomes

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Speaker 2: less concerned. Let's take a look at question number two.

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Speaker 3: Hey, justin Kylie, it's brittany here. How do you teach

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Speaker 3: empathy without creating a people pleaser? How do I teach

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Speaker 3: my sons that their actions and words have the ability

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Speaker 3: to harm the feelings of others, while also teaching them

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Speaker 3: that they aren't responsible for how other people react to

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Speaker 3: their boundaries. An example, my oldest throws a toy at

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Speaker 3: his brother, and I want him to understand that that

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Speaker 3: hurt his brother and made him sad. He's responsible for that,

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Speaker 3: and he should apologize and help him feel better. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, if my son says he doesn't

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Speaker 3: want to hug his art and she tells him that

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Speaker 3: that upset her, then that is not his responsibility to

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Speaker 3: make her feel better. How do I distinguish the difference

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Speaker 3: to him.

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Speaker 2: Let's start this one by looking at what a people

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Speaker 2: pleaser is. So people please with a someone who is

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Speaker 2: constantly putting up the people's needs ahead of their own.

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Speaker 2: They're highly attuned to others and they're just really really agreeable,

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Speaker 2: like they want to help, they want to be kind,

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Speaker 2: but they don't tend to advocate very well for themselves,

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Speaker 2: which can lead to a harmful pattern of self sacrifice

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Speaker 2: or self neglect. That's people pleasing. Now. Empathy. Empathy is

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Speaker 2: the ability to feel the way another person feels, and

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Speaker 2: I just want to emphasize this. It's inherent within us

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Speaker 2: as social creatures, as ultra social creatures that we want

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Speaker 2: others to feel good. It's healthy that that's the case.

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Speaker 2: It should be encouraged. This is what makes people well

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Speaker 2: socialized when they're considerate of the people around them. But

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Speaker 2: here's the critical thing that I'd say, and this is

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Speaker 2: the big difference between a people pleaser and somebody who's empathic.

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Speaker 2: If you get your value from making other people feel good,

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Speaker 2: then we may end up the problem because this can

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Speaker 2: lead to martyrdom. It can lead to a level of

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Speaker 2: self sacrifice that is unhealthy. Now, I know that we're

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Speaker 2: supposed to lose ourselves in the service of others. I

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Speaker 2: know we're supposed to put other people first wherever we

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Speaker 2: reasonably can. But if we do that at the expense

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Speaker 2: of our own well being and our own health, then

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Speaker 2: that becomes problematic. That's where we see all sorts of

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Speaker 2: challenges around anxiety and codependency and so on. So what

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Speaker 2: do we do here? I think there are three things

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Speaker 2: to encourage in our children. Number one, we've got to

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Speaker 2: help them to know themselves. Now, this is not fair

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Speaker 2: when you're dealing with little kids. It takes decades to

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Speaker 2: really develop a high level of identity, a high level

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Speaker 2: of knowing who you are, recognizing what you value, and

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Speaker 2: how you want to live out your life. Nevertheless, you

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Speaker 2: can start to teach principles around what you value and

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Speaker 2: when you should choose a O. B. Second thing, teaching

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Speaker 2: consideration is just it's an essential part of pairing. It's

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Speaker 2: what we need to do. Case in point, the other day, Annie,

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Speaker 2: my sixteen year old, was vacuuming. Lily, my four ten

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Speaker 2: year old, was doing some folding. Fantastic, they're helping out

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Speaker 2: in the house. They're trying to make things clean and tidy. Wonderful,

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Speaker 2: except Lily is folding where Annie needs to vacuum, and

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Speaker 2: Lily doesn't want to move. Why Well, because I don't know.

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Speaker 2: She's being a bit obstinate. She's not being considerate of

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's only it's only going to take

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Speaker 2: Annie thirty seconds to vacuum where she is. It's that quick,

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Speaker 2: Lily doesn't want to move. Here's the other problem, though, Annie.

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Speaker 2: Annie could go and vacuum all the other rooms because

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Speaker 2: Lily only has about three minutes worth of folding to

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Speaker 2: do and she's going to be out of there. But

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Speaker 2: Annie won't be considerate of Lily's needs and go and

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Speaker 2: vacuum the room next door and then come back in

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Speaker 2: because why I don't know, because she's got to have

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Speaker 2: that flow. Being considerate means that you look at the

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Speaker 2: situation and you just make a judgment call where you say, hm,

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Speaker 2: this is not actually about people pleasing. This is just

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Speaker 2: about us working together. And I think that there's value

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Speaker 2: in just being considerate. The third principle is slow things down.

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Speaker 2: If you can take a beat, if you can pause

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Speaker 2: and think about what the idea response will be, you

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Speaker 2: can work out whether or not you need to be

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Speaker 2: considerate of others, or this is one where you need

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Speaker 2: to hold your ground and defend your position. The example

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Speaker 2: that you've given Brittany in terms of hugging Grandma versus

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Speaker 2: throwing a block at your brother's head is pretty easily

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Speaker 2: resolved if we practice these three principles. Let's slow it down.

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Speaker 2: Is it considerate? Is it in harmony with my values

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Speaker 2: to stand my ground here or to go on the attack?

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Speaker 2: Do I need to be a people pleaser? Or is

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Speaker 2: having a bit of empathy or that's required? And look,

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Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of overlap here. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: both and other times not so much. Ultimately, ultimately, we

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Speaker 2: just want our kids to be nice, right, We just

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Speaker 2: want them to be nice, But we don't want that

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Speaker 2: diverge into unhealthy people pleasing. And the distinction matters when

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Speaker 2: you do nice things for any number of reasons, maybe

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Speaker 2: to feel good, maybe to help to return a favor,

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Speaker 2: or maybe because you know that you'll get a payback later,

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Speaker 2: Like you'll earn a favor. If you're doing nice things

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Speaker 2: for that great stuff, no problem. If you're doing it though,

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Speaker 2: because you're afraid that you'll be rejected, you'll be perceived

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Speaker 2: as not a good person. You'll be perceived as dislike.

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Speaker 2: That is, if I go back to my previous principle,

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Speaker 2: if you're getting your sense of identity and value from

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Speaker 2: making other people happy, then people pleasing is at work.

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Speaker 2: That's not going to be nearly as healthy. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for your questions. I hope that that helps.

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Speaker 2: If you have more questions for me, please jump onto

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Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot you. We've got this incredibly

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Speaker 2: easy to use system where you just go to the

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Speaker 2: podcast page, click on the button, and start talking. We

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Speaker 2: get the voice note, and you end up having your

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Speaker 2: questions answered on the Happy Families podcast. It's Happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot AU. Click on the podcast link and

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Speaker 2: push the record button to submit your questions. The Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more information about

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Speaker 2: how you can make your family happier, you'll find it

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Speaker 2: all happy families dot com dot uh