Speaker 1: You're in lockdown and it's a special occasion, but you
Speaker 1: can't go out. You can't dress up and have a
Speaker 1: night in the city because nothing is open and you
Speaker 1: need to stay home and social distance. So instead you
Speaker 1: pour a glass of wine and order a delicious meal
Speaker 1: that's delivered right to your door. But when you open
Speaker 1: the door, the man dropping off the food is driving
Speaker 1: a red Porsche and is none other than world renowned
Speaker 1: chef Ben Shuri. Yes that's right, Ben Sury, owner of
Speaker 1: Melbourne's award winning restaurant Attica. During COVID, Ben had to
Speaker 1: pull out all the stops to save his business. Instead
Speaker 1: of serving international foodies three hundred and ten dollars per
Speaker 1: person tasting menus, he was driving around Melbourne serving takeaway Lasagnia's.
Speaker 1: So how did he stay motivated when everything he had
Speaker 1: worked for was being taken away from him? How does
Speaker 1: he create what he refers to as a culture of
Speaker 1: playful anxiety? And how do you make perfect poached eggs?
Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm an organizational psychologist
Speaker 1: and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is
Speaker 1: how I work A show about how to help you
Speaker 1: do your best work. So in eight weeks, Ben went
Speaker 1: from serving sixty customers a night in a three handed
Speaker 1: restaurant to pivoting to home delivery. Let's start by going
Speaker 1: back to March fifteen, just after COVID had hit.
Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing like the impending sense of doom to
Speaker 2: motivate you to survive. I think that was probably the
Speaker 2: first and foremost feeling and emotion, if I'm being honest,
Speaker 2: The fifteenth of March last year, and that was my birthday,
Speaker 2: And that was the day that I knew that my
Speaker 2: business was going to collapse unless I did something. And
Speaker 2: I had a day on my birthday which I mostly concealed,
Speaker 2: but it was very hard actually to conceal the true feelings.
Speaker 2: I was with my children and my partner, Kylie, and
Speaker 2: we were trying to celebrate my birthday, and I just
Speaker 2: felt I felt sick inside. I felt like everything that
Speaker 2: had worked my entire life was about to be taken
Speaker 2: away from me. So, having only owned the restaurant for
Speaker 2: five years, I thought that I was going to lose
Speaker 2: it. It's a very tough industry, as a lot of people
Speaker 2: out there will know, and hospitality has been one of
Speaker 2: the hardest hit of all industries through the pandemic, and
Speaker 2: so I just did what I knew that I could do.
Speaker 2: So I made plans with Kylie to do something, to try.
Speaker 2: We didn't know if we could succeed. We had forty
Speaker 2: full time staff who usually cooked for sixty guests, one
Speaker 2: of the highest staff the customer ratios of any business
Speaker 2: in Australia. And so my concern first and foremost was
Speaker 2: really for those people, more than twenty of whom were
Speaker 2: visa workers and would have no sacked in net in Australia,
Speaker 2: no help offered to them by the government. And I
Speaker 2: had made a commitment to them, and I take that
Speaker 2: commitment seriously to offer them a job and to pay
Speaker 2: their wages, and to take care of them as they
Speaker 2: take care of me and my company. It was really
Speaker 2: a natural thing to find a way to fight.
Speaker 1: And thinking about that week after March fifteen, if I
Speaker 1: would have been a fly on the wall watching you
Speaker 1: think and work and decide what to do, what would
Speaker 1: I have observed?
Speaker 2: You would have observed complete chaos, to be honest, but
Speaker 2: I thrive on the situations that border on the insane.
Speaker 2: I like that disruption. I think there's some slightly sick
Speaker 2: part of me that enjoys that. I didn't enjoy the
Speaker 2: feeling of the pandemic coming and having to close our
Speaker 2: dining room and cancel thousands of bookings. That was a
Speaker 2: terrible feeling. But what came after I find that exhilarating
Speaker 2: in a slightly perverse way. It's like the greatest challenge
Speaker 2: and the biggest gamble. And my sort of philosophy towards
Speaker 2: that is just if you're not in it, if you're
Speaker 2: not their present with it, and you're not absolutely giving
Speaker 2: it everything, then you won't survive it.
Speaker 1: So you say that you thrive on chaos, how do
Speaker 1: you harness that chaos into something that comes out productively
Speaker 1: at the other end, as it absolutely did for you.
Speaker 2: Well, I thrive on that chaos because I like the
Speaker 2: feeling of it. I like the discomfort, and I like
Speaker 2: the things that come from it, like some of the
Speaker 2: best work has been done when, for example, when somebody
Speaker 2: has come into the dining room and we always cater
Speaker 2: for all allergies at Attica and all dislikes and phobias
Speaker 2: and anything that anybody has. That's the service that we offer.
Speaker 2: And sometimes when we try to collect that information before
Speaker 2: people come, so we can be super organized and prepared,
Speaker 2: and it takes hours every day. But sometimes people will
Speaker 2: come in and throw an absolute spanner in the work,
Speaker 2: so they haven't communicated to us at all what their
Speaker 2: situation is, and that is very challenging. It can be
Speaker 2: very challenging. So in a restaurant, you have the right
Speaker 2: amount of people to do the right amount of jobs,
Speaker 2: and that's all planned across how many covers you have
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. But if somebody comes
Speaker 2: in and says, well, you know, I have there all
Speaker 2: these dislikes and sometimes they're really complicated, and that means
Speaker 2: maybe we have to leave the restaurant to purchase more
Speaker 2: food to cater for them. That could take somebody out
Speaker 2: of the rotation for several hours. Now that is very
Speaker 2: hard sometimes to deal with. But also there's this sort
Speaker 2: of these moments where you are just making split decisions
Speaker 2: and they're very instinctual and not planned. And I like
Speaker 2: some of the learnings that come from these more instinctual,
Speaker 2: more guttural kind of decision making experiences. It's very very
Speaker 2: difficult to replicate that brain process when you have more
Speaker 2: time and you're trying to be more planned and more researched.
Speaker 2: So I like a combination of chaos because I like
Speaker 2: the results that come from chaos, and I like to
Speaker 2: be incredibly organized as well. So I'm a little bit
Speaker 2: odd like I have these two things. I'm very very
Speaker 2: rigorously organized with my work and very very very precise,
Speaker 2: and any imprecision is really not acceptable. But at the
Speaker 2: same time, I like a bit of disruption as well,
Speaker 2: because I feel like that makes us better and challenges us,
Speaker 2: and it also shakes up any form of complacency. And
Speaker 2: sometimes it puts a very small level of anxiety into
Speaker 2: the work, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. People
Speaker 2: talk about anxiety being a negative thing all the time,
Speaker 2: but a level of playful and anxiety in the working
Speaker 2: environment can be a powerful thing as long as it's
Speaker 2: not harming people's mental health. But the feeling of just
Speaker 2: being a little bit uncomfortable is not bad, you know.
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes as humans we're too comfortable.
Speaker 1: We don't really achieve anything playful anxiety. That's such an
Speaker 1: interesting term, aside from customers throwing random dietaries at you
Speaker 1: at the last minute when they're actually in the restaurant.
Speaker 1: Are there any other ways that you can deliberately cultivate
Speaker 1: that atmosphere of playful anxiety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can, and I do, And so I suppose
Speaker 2: if you've ever worked with me before, it can be
Speaker 2: a bit bewildering at times. But the staff that have
Speaker 2: been Attica a long time, and we have some really
Speaker 2: long term staff, and those people understand that they need
Speaker 2: to be ready for anything at any time, and they
Speaker 2: need to just roll with the changes, because when I
Speaker 2: decide to do something within the business, I'm not meaning
Speaker 2: to many immediately often and that can even be a
Speaker 2: big project. And so that might mean that we would
Speaker 2: renovate the entire backyard. Okay, we've planned it now, we're
Speaker 2: going to begin on Monday, and there we go, off
Speaker 2: we go. And so it's the sort of mentality of
Speaker 2: sort of zero excuses about why we can't achieve things
Speaker 2: and always and how will we achieve them? And that
Speaker 2: has been the guiding principle Attam for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: How do you bring in the play because I can
Speaker 1: understand how these things would cause anxiety, but how do
Speaker 1: you deliberately bring the playfulness into it?
Speaker 2: Well, you make it always great fun it's a big adventure,
Speaker 2: it's serious work, but you don't take yourself too seriously.
Speaker 2: I constantly tease gently, I should say, my staff. That's
Speaker 2: my form of telling you that I really like you
Speaker 2: and I think you're great is if I gently tease
Speaker 2: you or make a joke, not at your expense, but
Speaker 2: just to lighten the mood. And so that is very welcome,
Speaker 2: that sense of sort of playfulness, that sense of family,
Speaker 2: the sense that we really care for each other as well.
Speaker 2: Like I've mostly talked about the more sort of cutting
Speaker 2: edge and driving aspects of the business, but the fact
Speaker 2: is that is that most people who arrive in that
Speaker 2: working environment have never been in the working environment that
Speaker 2: feels like at can before. That's not to say that
Speaker 2: it's better or worse. It's just very different, and it's
Speaker 2: deliberately different. And there's various means and ways that we
Speaker 2: employ to cultivate that feeling. And it's always always the
Speaker 2: team first, never the individual first. The individual needs can
Speaker 2: be met, of course, and we allow space and time
Speaker 2: for that to happen through people being able to develop
Speaker 2: their own recipes. And I've never said no to anybody
Speaker 2: that wanted to create something to show me and to
Speaker 2: make a moment in the day, and I would buy
Speaker 2: those products to do that with so that they can learn,
Speaker 2: so that when they leave aut it for eventually they
Speaker 2: have those skills. But there's just a sense of kind
Speaker 2: of caromaraderie amongst our teams and a sense of givenness
Speaker 2: and a sense that nobody is better than anybody else
Speaker 2: in that environment. We're on the same level. And that
Speaker 2: includes me, who's completely prepared to jump in to wash dishes,
Speaker 2: to unpack deliveries, to do the clean the toilets, to
Speaker 2: do any of the things that are required to be
Speaker 2: done in my business at a moment's notice.
Speaker 1: I want to come back to what you said about
Speaker 1: customers throwing dietary requirements at you on the night, because
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by what then goes on behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: And I say this as someone who is highly annoying
Speaker 1: as a restaurant diner, because I'm low FODMAP. Oh what
Speaker 1: a nightmare. So what would happen if I, like twelve
Speaker 1: months ago, had dinner at Attica and I'm like, hey, Ben,
Speaker 1: I'm low FODMAP, but I didn't tell you before I
Speaker 1: made the booking, Like what goes on behind.
Speaker 2: Me deanlight that that's the greatest thing in the world,
Speaker 2: that the thing that anybody's ever said to us for one,
Speaker 2: which really trying to make you feel like that is
Speaker 2: no issue at all, and it isn't, because what we're
Speaker 2: trying to do is we're trying to make the experience
Speaker 2: that you're going to have, no matter what your circumstance,
Speaker 2: likes or dislikes, are the best that you've ever had.
Speaker 2: And one of the ways that we know how to
Speaker 2: deal with that is by taking every request and every
Speaker 2: allergy and every dislike very seriously, because often people that
Speaker 2: have allergies and have dietary conditions have never really been
Speaker 2: treated very well in a restaurant before. So often it
Speaker 2: will be the first time that their concerns and their dislikes,
Speaker 2: and they're very real and serious elergies have been taken
Speaker 2: very seriously, and so it really comes down to this matter.
Speaker 2: It's basically that we have a full time staff member
Speaker 2: just to deal with those things, and that person writes
Speaker 2: incredible amounts of data lists, diagrams on the menu that
Speaker 2: we have. As it is, so most of the senior
Speaker 2: staff or everybody really immediately knows when you say that, Hey,
Speaker 2: amanth they can't have this, can have can have that.
Speaker 2: But then sometimes we wouldn't have catered necessarily for your
Speaker 2: range of directory restrictions, because if we do and there's
Speaker 2: nobody booked them, then that will be wasted. So we
Speaker 2: may have to run across the road or go down
Speaker 2: to Elwood, or run down to Leaf which is a
Speaker 2: great local supermarket, and buy some extra things. But that's
Speaker 2: okay too. We're completely prepared to do that, just like
Speaker 2: completely prepared to jump in the car and go to
Speaker 2: Dan Murphy's for a can of VB if that's really
Speaker 2: what somebody wants, If that's what they really really want,
Speaker 2: and nothing else will do you know, of course that's
Speaker 2: what we'll do.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Now. When I was preparing for this interview,
Speaker 1: I read that there is one rule that you usually
Speaker 1: tell your staff before they start working for you. Can
Speaker 1: you share what that is?
Speaker 2: There's a very simple rule. It's that there is no
Speaker 2: negative attitude allowed in my businesses.
Speaker 1: What's the reaction when you tell people that?
Speaker 2: If I'm an interview and or recently interviewed probably forty
Speaker 2: different people for positions that are new place in the
Speaker 2: Ara Valley, and as I said, across from you, I
Speaker 2: will ask you about yourself, where you've come from, where
Speaker 2: you've worked, where you're living, what do you like. And
Speaker 2: I'm trying to disarm the person who I'm interviewing, because
Speaker 2: how often really nervous, and I understand that feeling of nervousness,
Speaker 2: and you really want a job, So I'll try to
Speaker 2: disarm them, and I'll be very warm and friendly, and
Speaker 2: often Kylie or one of the other staff members will
Speaker 2: ask the more pointed questions about what was the what
Speaker 2: would your last employee, what was the worst thing your
Speaker 2: last employer might say about you, or something along those lines,
Speaker 2: trying to get to honesty. But there's really only one
Speaker 2: thing that I want to say to people and one
Speaker 2: thing that I want to hear. So at some point
Speaker 2: I will say, so, there's only one rule here there
Speaker 2: at Attica, and that is that there is no negative
Speaker 2: attitude allowed. And I will go on to detail that. So,
Speaker 2: for me, negative attitude is talking back to somebody, being rude,
Speaker 2: being disruptive in a negative way, dropping your shoulders, sulking,
Speaker 2: muttering under your breath, being lazy, obviously not showing up
Speaker 2: for work, on time. That's negative attitude. And so I'm
Speaker 2: very clear about what negative attitude is. And then I'll
Speaker 2: go on to say what is not negative attitude? What
Speaker 2: is not negative attitude is if you ever harassed, made
Speaker 2: to feel intimidated, touched and appropriately, God forbid any of
Speaker 2: those sorts of things, that is not negative attitude. Now
Speaker 2: I want to know about those things immediately if they
Speaker 2: ever happen to you in my workplace, and then they
Speaker 2: will be dealt with quickly and succinctly. And so I
Speaker 2: make that definition because I'm asking people to not have
Speaker 2: any negative attitude, but it doesn't mean that they have
Speaker 2: to beary real problems that they might face in the workplace.
Speaker 2: So once that's clarified, I then look them in the
Speaker 2: eyes and say, hey, can you commit to that? Can
Speaker 2: you be that person? Can you be the person that
Speaker 2: comes to work every day who says hello to everybody
Speaker 2: and gets on with their work in a really productive,
Speaker 2: team orientated way without any negative attitude? And if they
Speaker 2: say yes, I expect them to actually verbally say and
Speaker 2: commit to it. And then I say, I'll remember that
Speaker 2: we had this conversation, and if I ever seen your
Speaker 2: negative attitude we'll be having conversation about it straight away.
Speaker 2: Now that sounds hardline and hardcore, but what it does
Speaker 2: is it just sets the standard from the beginning that
Speaker 2: negative attitude is intolerable to me and to the other
Speaker 2: people that work and in our work environments. And this
Speaker 2: comes from a place of not running the business the
Speaker 2: way that I wanted to in the past, and having
Speaker 2: basically a bunch of negative people who I let be
Speaker 2: negative because I was such an inexperienced and incompetent manager.
Speaker 2: I didn't address any of the issues, and that got
Speaker 2: so bad that it nearly destroyed the business, and it
Speaker 2: nearly destroyed me. It put me in a massive hole,
Speaker 2: and it really made me not want to be a
Speaker 2: chef and not want to run Attica. So coming out
Speaker 2: of that time, those people left and I took ownership
Speaker 2: at the restaurant, I had the chance to build it
Speaker 2: exactly how I wanted it, with the culture exactly how
Speaker 2: I would want it to be. And so just by
Speaker 2: having those simple conversations at the beginning, it really eliminates
Speaker 2: just about all of the problems. And nobody can say
Speaker 2: that they weren't warned. If they do become negative, it's
Speaker 2: a very easy thing to sit down and have a
Speaker 2: conversation about what's going on with you. We had this discussion.
Speaker 2: You know what the standard is and you're not meeting it.
Speaker 2: How can we meet it? Or do you need to
Speaker 2: consider another place to work?
Speaker 1: How do you keep yourself in that positive mindset? With
Speaker 1: that positive.
Speaker 2: Attitude, I'm pretty sunny generally. I love my work. I
Speaker 2: love being at the restaurants, and I have an amazing
Speaker 2: partner in Kylie, who I work with every day and
Speaker 2: we really keep each other in check as well. I
Speaker 2: also have very much a staff of people that give
Speaker 2: feedback rather than just say yes, I don't that's not
Speaker 2: helpful to me. So I know that if I was
Speaker 2: if my own actions weren't up to what I was
Speaker 2: asking of other people and went up to the company's standard,
Speaker 2: then people would pull me aside and tell me and
Speaker 2: I would listen. But that's ever happened. I'm generally exceptionally
Speaker 2: positive and I don't dwell on things. So if there
Speaker 2: are mistakes made, and there are every day, of course,
Speaker 2: there's always problems in business. That's really the definition of
Speaker 2: businesses problems, So it's just about how you'll overcome them.
Speaker 2: I don't dwell on them. I like to deal with
Speaker 2: things in the moment. I don't like to sit down
Speaker 2: and have a big monthly meeting about all the things
Speaker 2: that went wrong. I like to deal with them every
Speaker 2: day as I see them. So people working for me
Speaker 2: generally know if they've made a mistake, then I'll have
Speaker 2: a discussion about it with them, but I won't hold
Speaker 2: it over them, and the next day or the next
Speaker 2: hour is a completely new thing and we'll move on.
Speaker 2: And that's good for them, I think, because there's no
Speaker 2: games and there's no uncertainty, and it's good for me
Speaker 2: because I don't hold on to that stuff. Well, it
Speaker 2: sits within me and I can't let it go. So
Speaker 2: I have to deal with things like that otherwise I'll
Speaker 2: go home and feel anxious about the mistakes or anxious
Speaker 2: about the situation. We're anxious about the relationship. So I
Speaker 2: like to deal with things quickly and positively and move on.
Speaker 1: And how do you do that, Like, do you have
Speaker 1: strategies for being able to move on so quickly?
Speaker 2: I just think it's a part of my personality. I
Speaker 2: don't like a lot of negative conflict in my life.
Speaker 2: I like harmonious relationships. I don't like filling out with people.
Speaker 2: I think that most things can be able become a case.
Speaker 2: When they can't, you just part ways. But even then
Speaker 2: I don't have the capacity to hold anger towards people
Speaker 2: within me. It's a very destructive thing. It doesn't help
Speaker 2: me lead a happy and fruitful life. It doesn't help
Speaker 2: the company. It's just best to stay classy.
Speaker 1: It probably would be the way that that's a nice motto.
Speaker 1: Hey there, it's time for a little ad break. But
Speaker 1: can I ask a favor of you? If you're enjoying
Speaker 1: how I work, I would be so grateful if you
Speaker 1: could hit pause on this show and pop into Apple
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this from and leave
Speaker 1: a review. You can do that by clicking on the
Speaker 1: star rating or writing a comment. And aside from the warm,
Speaker 1: fuzzy feelings, this will give both you and me, it
Speaker 1: also helps other people find out about how I work.
Speaker 1: So thank you in advance. Okay, Ben Shuri, We'll be
Speaker 1: back after this break to talk about how we can
Speaker 1: all level up cooking skills at home. Now. I want
Speaker 1: to shift gear into cooking tips because I imagine the
Speaker 1: listeners of how I work. Perhaps we're cooking a fair
Speaker 1: bit at home prior to twenty twenty, but I imagine a
Speaker 1: lot of listeners started cooking a lot at home. And
Speaker 1: I want to know what's the difference between being a
Speaker 1: kind of average amateur chef at home and being a
Speaker 1: really impressive one. Like, what are some things that people
Speaker 1: can do differently to level up there at home cooking prowess?
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so first and foremost, I have one standard
Speaker 2: for everything, just one standard that I apply to everything
Speaker 2: in life, whether it be cooking, whether it be relationships,
Speaker 2: whether it be being a dad, whether it be financial
Speaker 2: accountability or whatever. Like I'm not good at all those things,
Speaker 2: but I have people helping me so that I seem
Speaker 2: like I'm good at those things. But I just have
Speaker 2: one high level. Now I want to meet that high
Speaker 2: level on everything that I do every single day. So
Speaker 2: I think sometimes how that applies to cooking is sometimes
Speaker 2: different things in cooking are viewed at different values. So
Speaker 2: if you were cooking a dinner party, it would be
Speaker 2: really important that that dinner party be really awesome because
Speaker 2: you want to impress your friends, whereas your breakfast might
Speaker 2: have sucked a bit My approach to getting better at
Speaker 2: cooking is just to apply one standard to every single
Speaker 2: bit of cooking that you do. So don't make a
Speaker 2: terrible breakfast. It's just as easy to make a great one.
Speaker 2: So if you just try to take that approach, and
Speaker 2: I imagine a lot of people that are listening to
Speaker 2: this a pretty high treat achievers and a driven so
Speaker 2: that they should already be familiar with a high level.
Speaker 2: Just apply the high level that you have in your
Speaker 2: life already to cooking. And with cooking, there's heaps heaps
Speaker 2: of variables every day, and those variables are the oven
Speaker 2: that you work with might not be the same oven
Speaker 2: that you work cooked with yesterday. The tomato is definitely
Speaker 2: not going to taste the same as they did yesterday
Speaker 2: if they're not the same tomatoes. But even if they
Speaker 2: are the same tomatoes you had for two days, are
Speaker 2: going to taste different, especially if you get them on
Speaker 2: the bench. The best cooking is always intuitive and is
Speaker 2: with feel. So times and temperatures, while they be important,
Speaker 2: feel is more important. Feel only comes from repetition, from
Speaker 2: doing something time and time again. What is really helpful
Speaker 2: to progress quicker in cooking, To go from being like
Speaker 2: a good cook to a great cook is trying to
Speaker 2: remember the data in one of two ways. Some people
Speaker 2: can just retain it in their mind and other people
Speaker 2: need to make notes. I would say if you're at
Speaker 2: the beginning of your trying to get better at cooking phase,
Speaker 2: then you should take notes, especially if you're making the
Speaker 2: same thing. So if you make a bolin aise tomorrow,
Speaker 2: write down what you did, and then afterwards write down
Speaker 2: what was really good about it. The next time that
Speaker 2: you go to make a bolin, you've got those notes
Speaker 2: to refer to. Now you might want to make some
Speaker 2: changes because you thought that maybe your source wasn't rich enough,
Speaker 2: maybe it didn't have enough olive oil, maybe it needed
Speaker 2: a bit more sugar because the tomatoes were to acid it.
Speaker 2: You can move forward in the quality of that bottle
Speaker 2: naze by remembering what you did the last time, and
Speaker 2: then you'll reach a point after maybe ten times, where
Speaker 2: you no longer need to refer to those notes or
Speaker 2: even really think about it, because it becomes intuitive. So
Speaker 2: that would be probably a pro tip is how to
Speaker 2: get better. A lot of really good young chefs are
Speaker 2: trying to get better take notes. Obviously, there's good and
Speaker 2: bad recipes, and there's good and bad cookbooks, so I
Speaker 2: suppose some of the classic cookbooks are often the best.
Speaker 2: I think anything by Fergus Henderson, the celebrated English chef
Speaker 2: from Saint John, those are really good, fundamental books on cooking.
Speaker 2: Don't get too carried away with glossy, fancy, beautiful looking
Speaker 2: restaurant cookbooks. I say this as somebody who once produced
Speaker 2: a book like that, try to find something that's more realistic.
Speaker 2: All good cooking in the world generally stems from home cooking,
Speaker 2: including my cooking at Attica. I think Stephanie Alexander is
Speaker 2: an absolutely amazing inspiration and a great book book author.
Speaker 2: You can't go wrong with Stephanie or Maggie. Maggie Bear
Speaker 2: is also another exceptionally gifted Australian cook. Neil Perry's books
Speaker 2: are excellent. I really like Adam Leo as well. I've
Speaker 2: got to say, as a both as a person and
Speaker 2: as a cook, I think he's a really awesome person
Speaker 2: for people to follow who cook at home. Sometimes chefs,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of high end restaurant chefs like me,
Speaker 2: can get a little bit caught up in the nature
Speaker 2: of their work, so sometimes we're not the best to follow,
Speaker 2: to be honest, in terms of trying to cook things
Speaker 2: at home.
Speaker 1: I want to dig into this idea of applying this
Speaker 1: high level standard to everything that you cook, which I
Speaker 1: find really interesting because I definitely don't do that myself,
Speaker 1: and I want to know how do we do that
Speaker 1: yet be efficient in the kitchen and not let the
Speaker 1: preparation of a breakfast take an hour like a dinner
Speaker 1: party preparation might take. What are some tips for being
Speaker 1: more efficient and managing our time better when we are
Speaker 1: trying to stick to that high level across everything we cook.
Speaker 2: No, it's a good question. I would say though, that
Speaker 2: it takes just as long to make a bad breakfast
Speaker 2: as it does to make a good breakfast, if not longer,
Speaker 2: especially if you factor in the lack of productivity that
Speaker 2: you're going to have from eating that terrible breakfast and
Speaker 2: how it's going to make you feel afterwards. So probably
Speaker 2: the first and foremost thing about making a really good breakfast,
Speaker 2: let's just say eggs, for example, eggs are not as easy,
Speaker 2: you know as they might seem. To cook Eggs really
Speaker 2: well as gain something that you should research and read
Speaker 2: about and then practice so once you've got it down,
Speaker 2: it's just really easy to make them well, whether it
Speaker 2: be scroundwater or poached. To give you a little tip
Speaker 2: on poaching eggs, something that I've learned to poach eggs
Speaker 2: successfully is to have a pot of water that's a
Speaker 2: bit deeper than you think it should be, and to
Speaker 2: have a bit more volume of water than you think
Speaker 2: you need. So I would probably be poaching eggs and
Speaker 2: about twenty centimeters of water. I would have it just
Speaker 2: below boiling, just a gentle summer. At the start, I
Speaker 2: always put in a capful of white vinegar, not white
Speaker 2: wine vinegar. White vinegar, the cheap stuff that helps the
Speaker 2: eggs cook and helps the protein set nicely. And now
Speaker 2: some people will swear by cooking eggs room temperature, others
Speaker 2: from the fridge. I'm take from the fridge and cook egg.
Speaker 2: Egg guy, no salt in the water. What I would do.
Speaker 2: They would take a spoon and I will swirl that
Speaker 2: water a little bit like a little bit like a whirlpool,
Speaker 2: and then that will spin. That water will spin in
Speaker 2: the saucepan. And then I'll take my egg and I'll
Speaker 2: crack it directly into that gently swirling the water slowing
Speaker 2: as I'm adding the eggs, And what that does is
Speaker 2: it helps the egg whites that wrap around the yolk,
Speaker 2: and you get a nicer shape. To try it next time,
Speaker 2: I would then turn the water down a little bit.
Speaker 2: I don't want it to summer or boil at all
Speaker 2: as I'm poaching them, and then just very simply drain
Speaker 2: the eggs, take the eggs from the saucepan with a
Speaker 2: slotted spoon. I might just touch the bottom of the
Speaker 2: egg on a paper towel, so my toast is not
Speaker 2: soggy and proper bread, something with structure and really good butter.
Speaker 2: Now you might be thinking, well, really good butter is expensive.
Speaker 2: I always say it is expensive, but use less. You know.
Speaker 2: That's kind of I guess, probably part of my cooking philosophy.
Speaker 2: To buy the best ingredients you afford, you can afford,
Speaker 2: and if you can't afford a lot of them, just
Speaker 2: buy a small amount of them. Eat more vegetables, less meat.
Speaker 2: That's the way to go.
Speaker 1: What is the best butter? What should we be buy?
Speaker 2: Well, if you're in Victoria, the best butter I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to sound terribly arrogant. Here is
Speaker 2: the butter that we make by hand at Attica. But
Speaker 2: if you're just looking to buy butter, Gippsland, Jersey make
Speaker 2: an exceptionally good cultured butter from Jersey cows. I prefer
Speaker 2: the cream and the butter from Jersey cows. My father,
Speaker 2: who was a dairy farmer at one point, referred to
Speaker 2: Jersey cow milk as bovine wine and for me, they
Speaker 2: have a richer and more full of flavor. Most of
Speaker 2: the milk and cream in New Zealand than in Australia
Speaker 2: I believe is from freezing cows and it's more about quantity.
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you can buy Jersey cream or Jersey butter,
Speaker 2: it's always generally more yellow and rich. But yeah, the
Speaker 2: Gippsland Jersey butter is really great.
Speaker 1: And selfishly, I want to know how do you make
Speaker 1: a good omelet because I feel like that's my go
Speaker 1: to egg dish.
Speaker 2: Sure give me some tips for that. The best eggs
Speaker 2: you must start with the best eggs fresh.
Speaker 1: And how do I know what are the best eggs?
Speaker 2: Well? The best way to know if you're lucky enough
Speaker 2: to be able to afford to go to a farmer's
Speaker 2: market or to have a farmer's market close to you.
Speaker 2: The best thing to do is to make friends with
Speaker 2: the free range egg farmer at the farmer's market and
Speaker 2: then you would be able to determine how old the
Speaker 2: eggs are, and what the conditions on the farm are like,
Speaker 2: and how many hens per squimeter and these types of things.
Speaker 2: If you're so, if you really want to go that
Speaker 2: deep into it, I would say avoid eggs from supermarkets
Speaker 2: would be my would be my definite advice if you can,
Speaker 2: because you just don't know how long they've been hanging around,
Speaker 2: how long they've been in the distribution center before they
Speaker 2: got to the supermarket, and how long they've even been
Speaker 2: at the supermarket before you brought them. So if not
Speaker 2: from a farmer's market, definitely from a small or a
Speaker 2: local independent grosser, from a farm gate. I mean maybe
Speaker 2: that's a little romantic, but just try to make some
Speaker 2: kind of connection to it. Do your research, but also
Speaker 2: buy different types, different ones, and just settle on the
Speaker 2: ones that you like and the eggs that are consistent.
Speaker 2: So once you've got good eggs, and it's actually not
Speaker 2: a hard thing to buy in Australia, e. The good eggs,
Speaker 2: we're very lucky. If you go to North America, good
Speaker 2: luck trying to buy good eggs. So take the eggs.
Speaker 2: And I like to do a two egg omelet. So
Speaker 2: I've got my omelet pan. I should say as well,
Speaker 2: So you need a lovely pan. That's really helpful.
Speaker 1: What's a good omelet pan.
Speaker 2: Well, I've got a pan by all Clad, allc Lad
Speaker 2: all Clad. I like it very much. It's got a
Speaker 2: copper core. It's quite an expensive pan. But again that's
Speaker 2: a relative thing because the pan that I've got will
Speaker 2: last my entire life. And if you buy it's not
Speaker 2: a nonstick pan. If you buy nonstick pans, they're not
Speaker 2: the greatest. They wear out in your life. You might
Speaker 2: have twenty non stick pans, which would be more expensive
Speaker 2: than my expensive all Clad pan. So again, if you
Speaker 2: can afford it, the best pan. Like it's just a say,
Speaker 2: a steel copper core pan, and sometimes saying the steel
Speaker 2: pans are really sticky, but this one's not. It's smallish,
Speaker 2: it's not huge. Say, it's probably got to twenty centimeter base.
Speaker 2: And what I do is I have my eggs, I
Speaker 2: crack them into a small bowl and I whisked them
Speaker 2: with a fork, not a whisk. Why is that because
Speaker 2: I don't want to break them up too much. I
Speaker 2: want to break them up just enough. You'll still see
Speaker 2: in my olmelets little bits of white. I don't want
Speaker 2: to break down the texture and the structure of the
Speaker 2: egg too much, and you can almost collapse it and
Speaker 2: it becomes, in my opinion, tougher, and it's stickier kind
Speaker 2: of to the pan and it's just not as nice.
Speaker 2: So definitely with a fork. I like to have my
Speaker 2: pan on a medium heat, not too low, not too high.
Speaker 2: I like to put a little bit of olive oil
Speaker 2: into the pan first, like I would say, a half
Speaker 2: teaspoon and teaspoon, swell that around, whist my eggs. Most
Speaker 2: of the time, I don't seize my eggs, but you
Speaker 2: can season, but there's definitely skills of thoughts on whether
Speaker 2: or not they should be seasoned. At that point, I
Speaker 2: don't season them in the bowl. I add a knob
Speaker 2: a good butter again, not any butter, but good butter
Speaker 2: to the oil. And I watch foam now and it's
Speaker 2: not going brown or black at this point, it's just fibing.
Speaker 2: So it's got a good temperature, but that the butter
Speaker 2: is not burning, I will pour the eggs into it,
Speaker 2: using a spatula to get all of the egg out
Speaker 2: of the bowl. That's approach it. You never leave anything
Speaker 2: in the bowl for any preparation in cooking. Do not
Speaker 2: leave anything in the bowl, no matter what you're making.
Speaker 2: And I like to use a spatula to make my omelets,
Speaker 2: a rubber spatula like some chefs seem to call them maurices,
Speaker 2: but it's always just a spacheler for me. And I
Speaker 2: use a heatproof one with a red handle and smallish
Speaker 2: and I pour those eggs into that pan that' said
Speaker 2: the moderate heat, and the butter is fimbing, but not color,
Speaker 2: no color, And I just shake the pangently above the
Speaker 2: element a little bit. I then allow the eggs to
Speaker 2: cover the entire base of the pan and cook a
Speaker 2: little bit. And then I quickly use my spatula to
Speaker 2: stir them just once, and then I'll probably take the
Speaker 2: pan off the heat and just let the heat of
Speaker 2: the pan do the cooking of the omelet. Now, sometimes
Speaker 2: if I'm putting something in it, I'd like to put
Speaker 2: a small amount of gria or a parmesan or even
Speaker 2: a soft cheese, and then I'm going to basically take
Speaker 2: the handle of the pan in my left hand and
Speaker 2: I'm going to lift it a little bit so that
Speaker 2: the pan is now on an angle sloping down towards
Speaker 2: the stove, and I'm going to use the spatula to
Speaker 2: roll my omelet into the shape of a cigar. This
Speaker 2: is a very classic style of making omelets. What I'm
Speaker 2: looking for is that nice, even round cigar. I'm letting
Speaker 2: the omelet roll on itself. I'm using the gravity because
Speaker 2: I've elevated the pan on an angle in my left hand,
Speaker 2: and at the end or just give a little tap
Speaker 2: to help the omelet form into the cigar. And then
Speaker 2: i will use that same angle, the same sort of
Speaker 2: awkward looking angle to put on the plate. Now the key.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, omelets should have no color on it,
Speaker 2: should be no brown on it at all. It should
Speaker 2: be golden like yellow, the color of the egg. And
Speaker 2: that's how I do it. I always want the omelet
Speaker 2: to be a little bit runny in the middle, especially
Speaker 2: as eggs will continue to cook in the pan, and
Speaker 2: then a little bit when they're on the plate as well.
Speaker 1: That is amazing. I'm feeling very inspired to be trying
Speaker 1: that out after this interview, I want to know what
Speaker 1: are like two or three basic skills that people should
Speaker 1: focus on mastering again to level themselves up, but also
Speaker 1: to potentially get some time efficiencies. Like for me, for example,
Speaker 1: I think about cutting, and I know how I'm meant
Speaker 1: to be cutting with my fingers, kind of like on
Speaker 1: a right angle, but I just can't seem to motivate
Speaker 1: myself to I don't know to do that. I'm sort
Speaker 1: of willing to take the risk of chopping off my
Speaker 1: fingers because it just seems too hard to change that habit.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's one the basic skills
Speaker 1: to master. But what should we be thinking about? Where
Speaker 1: should we invest our time in terms of really upskilling ourselves?
Speaker 2: Well, in terms of knives, I think there's two things
Speaker 2: that spring to mind. Knives are important, Buying a proper
Speaker 2: knife is important, and keeping it sharp is important. Now
Speaker 2: most people will know that if you have a blunt knife,
Speaker 2: it's really dangerous, and it is and I've been the
Speaker 2: victim of a blunt knife. I cut myself incredibly badly
Speaker 2: on the hand. As an apprentice with a blunt knife,
Speaker 2: you want to find a cook's knife, and that is
Speaker 2: the traditional knife that you think of when you think
Speaker 2: of cooking. You want to find a cook knife that
Speaker 2: suits you. There's a different and correct cook's knife for
Speaker 2: every person out there. If you have finer hands, smaller hands,
Speaker 2: and thinner wrists and you want a lighter, smaller cook knife,
Speaker 2: you don't want a huge ten inch cook knife. That's
Speaker 2: not going to be appropriate for you. That's going to
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable, unwieldly and difficult to use. Even you know,
Speaker 2: I've got reasonable size hands and nothing huge and reasonable
Speaker 2: size rests. I prefer a smaller cook's knife. I don't
Speaker 2: like really big cooks knives. I want to control the
Speaker 2: knife at all times, so therefore I want a smaller knife,
Speaker 2: and I know where the tippers and I know where
Speaker 2: the bladers all the time, and I'm minimalizing the risk
Speaker 2: or injury to myself but also making better cuts. So
Speaker 2: I would say go to a specialist knife shop is
Speaker 2: the go, and there are a few in Melbourne and
Speaker 2: throughout Australia. I really like chef's hat and talk to
Speaker 2: the people there. Often in catering shops and knife shops
Speaker 2: there might be somebody who was a former chef who
Speaker 2: can advise you. I like Finder blade knives. Some of
Speaker 2: the cheaper knives and the heavier German knives have a
Speaker 2: very very thick heft and very thick heavy heel on them.
Speaker 2: I don't like that. I have no affiliation with the
Speaker 2: brand Lectro Knox, but I swear by their knives as affordable,
Speaker 2: practical products. So while I have incredible handmade knives by
Speaker 2: Australian blacksmiths, an amazing beautiful, stunning handmade and machine made
Speaker 2: knives by Japanese knife makers, I also have rosewood handled
Speaker 2: and plastic handled Victor Knox knives that I really like
Speaker 2: using because they've got a fine blade and I find
Speaker 2: the height from your chopping board to the handle to
Speaker 2: be appropriate. Easy to sharpen because the steel is a
Speaker 2: little bit softer. Some of the German steel is incredibly
Speaker 2: hard and difficult to keep sharp unless you're a real
Speaker 2: expert at it. Make sure that you have a steel always.
Speaker 2: It would probably make a lot of knife experts out
Speaker 2: there gasp and horror, but I like diamond steels. They
Speaker 2: can chew through the babe of your knife, but they
Speaker 2: allow me to keep an edge for longer and I
Speaker 2: don't go hard on them because realistically, having a stone
Speaker 2: and putting a knife on the stone on a weekly
Speaker 2: or monthly basis is not practical for a lot of
Speaker 2: busy people. So those are tips now in terms of
Speaker 2: actually using the knife, practice by yourself a bunch of onions,
Speaker 2: and practice on onions. Onion is probably the best thing
Speaker 2: to practice on because they're probably the hardest thing to
Speaker 2: cut well, especially brinoirs, which is the French word that
Speaker 2: chefs use for fine dice of onion. So with an onion,
Speaker 2: when you peel the onion, you need to make sure
Speaker 2: that you don't cut too much of the core off,
Speaker 2: only just a little bit. The core is where the
Speaker 2: roots of the onion growing. Just trim it off slightly.
Speaker 2: The other end where the tip is, just cut that
Speaker 2: off slightly. Cut it in half lengthways through the core
Speaker 2: to the tip, and then peel it and then put
Speaker 2: the onion flat side down. And the technique to use
Speaker 2: it's quite hard to describe in words without actually showing,
Speaker 2: but the technique that I like to use it I
Speaker 2: call it a crab technique with my hand. And what
Speaker 2: that means is I have I'm a right handed cook,
Speaker 2: so I have my left hand that will be holding
Speaker 2: the onion, and I make what looks like a kind
Speaker 2: of crab or claw out of my left hand, and
Speaker 2: what happens, I basically protrude, protrude my knuckles further out
Speaker 2: than the tips of my fingers, so I make it
Speaker 2: impossible to cut the tips of my fingers with my
Speaker 2: left hand as I'm holding food, and I run the
Speaker 2: blade against my knuckles, and of course I don't bring
Speaker 2: it up so much that it could cut a knuckle.
Speaker 2: I keep it down low on the board or on
Speaker 2: the food. So that's the best way to go. Make
Speaker 2: sure that the knuckles are protruding. And it's really that
Speaker 2: first joint on your finger, not the second joint so much,
Speaker 2: even though you can use that second joint as well
Speaker 2: to keep your blade square to the board. Practice cut,
Speaker 2: like you know, buy every every shop that you do,
Speaker 2: buy I don't know, four onions and makestock with them
Speaker 2: or something like that. Four onions a week, and practice
Speaker 2: trying to bring on them. There'll be heaps of YouTube
Speaker 2: videos out there, but definitely practice and you'll be a
Speaker 2: proficient in no time. That's the knife tip. The other
Speaker 2: knife that I absolutely love again. I'm going to sound
Speaker 2: like I'm an advertisement for Victor Rocks, and I certainly
Speaker 2: have no affiliation with them, but they do the small serrated,
Speaker 2: rounded tip powering knife, and this thing is unbelievable. Everybody
Speaker 2: should have one of these in their kitchen, Like every
Speaker 2: one of my kitchen has ten to twenty of these
Speaker 2: knives for all the stuff to use, whether they have
Speaker 2: one or not. It's just a really good utility knife.
Speaker 2: I even use it on the building site when I'm renovating.
Speaker 2: It's just an amazing knife. It's ten dollars or nine dollars on.
Speaker 2: Another tip to get really good at cooking the main
Speaker 2: tep it doesn't even involve cooking. The number one step
Speaker 2: that I could give any person that wants to make
Speaker 2: better food is get good at choosing your food. Get
Speaker 2: good at knowing about food. Get good at knowing what
Speaker 2: food is sustainable or more sustainable. Sustainable is a dodgy
Speaker 2: word food. So the more you know about the ingredients
Speaker 2: and the better ingredients that you select, the better your
Speaker 2: food will be. That will be the biggest single factor
Speaker 2: in improving your cooking. It is our outweighs your ability
Speaker 2: to become technically proficient at anything. One of my greatest
Speaker 2: skills as a cook is that I have the ability
Speaker 2: to select the best food.
Speaker 1: And how can we do that? How do we get
Speaker 1: better at knowing how to select the best food?
Speaker 2: Well? How does it taste? That's the number one thing, generally,
Speaker 2: food that is more ethically grown. That is where people
Speaker 2: are not just caring for the environment, but therefore caring
Speaker 2: for you. Those grows, those people are making better tasting food.
Speaker 2: It hasn't spent weeks or days or months in cool storage.
Speaker 2: It comes from closer. It generally but not always looks
Speaker 2: better because we've lost a little bit of perception around
Speaker 2: the appearance of food. Sometimes things look great and they
Speaker 2: don't taste great, especially if you're talking about apples or
Speaker 2: stone fruit. But generally, find a green grosser that you
Speaker 2: trust and that consistently has good food. That would probably
Speaker 2: be the single easiest way to do it. Melbourne gain
Speaker 2: no affiliation, but I totally believe in the food that
Speaker 2: the small supermarket leaf sells. It's always good. It comes
Speaker 2: from a lot of the same farms that supply Attica. Yes,
Speaker 2: you pay more for that level of food, but good
Speaker 2: food costs more to grow those farms are taken care
Speaker 2: of their workers generally and taking care of the environment
Speaker 2: as well, So that would be the number one thing
Speaker 2: that will probably only be learned through the difference between
Speaker 2: going and buying a supermarket tomato which never tastes good,
Speaker 2: never ever does it taste good to me, and buying
Speaker 2: a tomato and season from a small grosser that's maybe
Speaker 2: never seen a core room before. That can be the difference.
Speaker 2: And those differences between those ingredients are earth shattering and
Speaker 2: anybody can identify them.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And I got to say I'm such a
Speaker 1: huge fan of leaf as well. Now I don't know
Speaker 1: where this hour has gone. Man, I could just talk
Speaker 1: to you all day, but obviously you've got work to do.
Speaker 1: My final question is for people that want to consume
Speaker 1: more of what you are making and doing, what is
Speaker 1: the best way for people to do that.
Speaker 2: Physically consume or online consume or all.
Speaker 1: Forms of consumption. So, particularly for listeners in Melbourne, what
Speaker 1: can they do and for all the listeners that are
Speaker 1: outside of this lovely city what can they do well?
Speaker 2: For listeners in Melbourne? I run two restaurants to businesses.
Speaker 2: One of them is Attica it's in Ripentley. That's the big,
Speaker 2: huge part of my life has been for fifteen years.
Speaker 2: But recently we opened Attica Summer Camp, which is an informal,
Speaker 2: more affordable, super fun, life affirming place in the Era
Speaker 2: Valley that has been designed to help our companies survive
Speaker 2: through COVID and to employ more people. Currently employee over
Speaker 2: seventy staff. And that is noisy and beautiful and very
Speaker 2: simple and very delicious. And we're cooking over huge charcoal
Speaker 2: rotchessaries which is heaps of fun. And even better than that,
Speaker 2: we have a dessert trally and incredibly talented team of
Speaker 2: patry chefs churning out amazing things, including a sponge, which
Speaker 2: I believe to be one of the best that I've
Speaker 2: ever seen. It took me three months to develop in
Speaker 2: lockdown and then online atka dot com dot au and
Speaker 2: on Instagram at ben Shuri at Attica Melbourne at Attica
Speaker 2: Summer Camp amazing.
Speaker 1: I will link to all of that in the show notes.
Speaker 1: And I happen to live about a ten minute walk
Speaker 1: from Attica, so I'm definitely going to be walking down
Speaker 1: today to buy some butter Ben. It's been an absolute
Speaker 1: pleasure talking to you. I'm so excited to go and
Speaker 1: cook some eggs. Thank you so much for your time, unreal.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for the time, lovely chat.
Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you have enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode, why not hit subscribe so you will be
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Speaker 1: someone that could maybe do with some tips in the kitchen,
Speaker 1: maybe you might want to sh this episode with them.
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support
Speaker 1: from dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode is
Speaker 1: the wonderful Jennakoda, and thank you to Martin Imber my dad,
Speaker 1: who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better
Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise. See you next time.