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Speaker 1: You're in lockdown and it's a special occasion, but you

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Speaker 1: can't go out. You can't dress up and have a

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Speaker 1: night in the city because nothing is open and you

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Speaker 1: need to stay home and social distance. So instead you

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Speaker 1: pour a glass of wine and order a delicious meal

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Speaker 1: that's delivered right to your door. But when you open

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Speaker 1: the door, the man dropping off the food is driving

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Speaker 1: a red Porsche and is none other than world renowned

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Speaker 1: chef Ben Shuri. Yes that's right, Ben Sury, owner of

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Speaker 1: Melbourne's award winning restaurant Attica. During COVID, Ben had to

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Speaker 1: pull out all the stops to save his business. Instead

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Speaker 1: of serving international foodies three hundred and ten dollars per

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Speaker 1: person tasting menus, he was driving around Melbourne serving takeaway Lasagnia's.

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Speaker 1: So how did he stay motivated when everything he had

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Speaker 1: worked for was being taken away from him? How does

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Speaker 1: he create what he refers to as a culture of

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Speaker 1: playful anxiety? And how do you make perfect poached eggs?

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Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm an organizational psychologist

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Speaker 1: and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is

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Speaker 1: how I work A show about how to help you

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Speaker 1: do your best work. So in eight weeks, Ben went

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Speaker 1: from serving sixty customers a night in a three handed

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Speaker 1: restaurant to pivoting to home delivery. Let's start by going

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Speaker 1: back to March fifteen, just after COVID had hit.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing like the impending sense of doom to

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Speaker 2: motivate you to survive. I think that was probably the

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Speaker 2: first and foremost feeling and emotion, if I'm being honest,

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Speaker 2: The fifteenth of March last year, and that was my birthday,

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Speaker 2: And that was the day that I knew that my

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Speaker 2: business was going to collapse unless I did something. And

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Speaker 2: I had a day on my birthday which I mostly concealed,

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Speaker 2: but it was very hard actually to conceal the true feelings.

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Speaker 2: I was with my children and my partner, Kylie, and

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Speaker 2: we were trying to celebrate my birthday, and I just

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Speaker 2: felt I felt sick inside. I felt like everything that

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Speaker 2: had worked my entire life was about to be taken

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Speaker 2: away from me. So, having only owned the restaurant for

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Speaker 2: five years, I thought that I was going to lose

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Speaker 2: it. It's a very tough industry, as a lot of people

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Speaker 2: out there will know, and hospitality has been one of

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Speaker 2: the hardest hit of all industries through the pandemic, and

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Speaker 2: so I just did what I knew that I could do.

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Speaker 2: So I made plans with Kylie to do something, to try.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know if we could succeed. We had forty

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Speaker 2: full time staff who usually cooked for sixty guests, one

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Speaker 2: of the highest staff the customer ratios of any business

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Speaker 2: in Australia. And so my concern first and foremost was

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Speaker 2: really for those people, more than twenty of whom were

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Speaker 2: visa workers and would have no sacked in net in Australia,

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Speaker 2: no help offered to them by the government. And I

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Speaker 2: had made a commitment to them, and I take that

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Speaker 2: commitment seriously to offer them a job and to pay

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Speaker 2: their wages, and to take care of them as they

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Speaker 2: take care of me and my company. It was really

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Speaker 2: a natural thing to find a way to fight.

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Speaker 1: And thinking about that week after March fifteen, if I

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Speaker 1: would have been a fly on the wall watching you

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Speaker 1: think and work and decide what to do, what would

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Speaker 1: I have observed?

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Speaker 2: You would have observed complete chaos, to be honest, but

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Speaker 2: I thrive on the situations that border on the insane.

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Speaker 2: I like that disruption. I think there's some slightly sick

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Speaker 2: part of me that enjoys that. I didn't enjoy the

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Speaker 2: feeling of the pandemic coming and having to close our

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Speaker 2: dining room and cancel thousands of bookings. That was a

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Speaker 2: terrible feeling. But what came after I find that exhilarating

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Speaker 2: in a slightly perverse way. It's like the greatest challenge

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Speaker 2: and the biggest gamble. And my sort of philosophy towards

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Speaker 2: that is just if you're not in it, if you're

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Speaker 2: not their present with it, and you're not absolutely giving

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Speaker 2: it everything, then you won't survive it.

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Speaker 1: So you say that you thrive on chaos, how do

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Speaker 1: you harness that chaos into something that comes out productively

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Speaker 1: at the other end, as it absolutely did for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thrive on that chaos because I like the

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Speaker 2: feeling of it. I like the discomfort, and I like

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Speaker 2: the things that come from it, like some of the

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Speaker 2: best work has been done when, for example, when somebody

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Speaker 2: has come into the dining room and we always cater

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Speaker 2: for all allergies at Attica and all dislikes and phobias

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Speaker 2: and anything that anybody has. That's the service that we offer.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes when we try to collect that information before

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Speaker 2: people come, so we can be super organized and prepared,

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Speaker 2: and it takes hours every day. But sometimes people will

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Speaker 2: come in and throw an absolute spanner in the work,

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Speaker 2: so they haven't communicated to us at all what their

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Speaker 2: situation is, and that is very challenging. It can be

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Speaker 2: very challenging. So in a restaurant, you have the right

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Speaker 2: amount of people to do the right amount of jobs,

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Speaker 2: and that's all planned across how many covers you have

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Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. But if somebody comes

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Speaker 2: in and says, well, you know, I have there all

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Speaker 2: these dislikes and sometimes they're really complicated, and that means

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Speaker 2: maybe we have to leave the restaurant to purchase more

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Speaker 2: food to cater for them. That could take somebody out

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Speaker 2: of the rotation for several hours. Now that is very

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Speaker 2: hard sometimes to deal with. But also there's this sort

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Speaker 2: of these moments where you are just making split decisions

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Speaker 2: and they're very instinctual and not planned. And I like

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Speaker 2: some of the learnings that come from these more instinctual,

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Speaker 2: more guttural kind of decision making experiences. It's very very

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Speaker 2: difficult to replicate that brain process when you have more

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Speaker 2: time and you're trying to be more planned and more researched.

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Speaker 2: So I like a combination of chaos because I like

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Speaker 2: the results that come from chaos, and I like to

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Speaker 2: be incredibly organized as well. So I'm a little bit

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Speaker 2: odd like I have these two things. I'm very very

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Speaker 2: rigorously organized with my work and very very very precise,

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Speaker 2: and any imprecision is really not acceptable. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, I like a bit of disruption as well,

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Speaker 2: because I feel like that makes us better and challenges us,

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Speaker 2: and it also shakes up any form of complacency. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes it puts a very small level of anxiety into

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Speaker 2: the work, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. People

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Speaker 2: talk about anxiety being a negative thing all the time,

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Speaker 2: but a level of playful and anxiety in the working

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Speaker 2: environment can be a powerful thing as long as it's

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Speaker 2: not harming people's mental health. But the feeling of just

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Speaker 2: being a little bit uncomfortable is not bad, you know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes as humans we're too comfortable.

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Speaker 1: We don't really achieve anything playful anxiety. That's such an

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Speaker 1: interesting term, aside from customers throwing random dietaries at you

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Speaker 1: at the last minute when they're actually in the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: Are there any other ways that you can deliberately cultivate

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Speaker 1: that atmosphere of playful anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can, and I do, And so I suppose

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Speaker 2: if you've ever worked with me before, it can be

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Speaker 2: a bit bewildering at times. But the staff that have

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Speaker 2: been Attica a long time, and we have some really

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Speaker 2: long term staff, and those people understand that they need

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Speaker 2: to be ready for anything at any time, and they

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Speaker 2: need to just roll with the changes, because when I

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Speaker 2: decide to do something within the business, I'm not meaning

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Speaker 2: to many immediately often and that can even be a

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Speaker 2: big project. And so that might mean that we would

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Speaker 2: renovate the entire backyard. Okay, we've planned it now, we're

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Speaker 2: going to begin on Monday, and there we go, off

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Speaker 2: we go. And so it's the sort of mentality of

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Speaker 2: sort of zero excuses about why we can't achieve things

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Speaker 2: and always and how will we achieve them? And that

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Speaker 2: has been the guiding principle Attam for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: How do you bring in the play because I can

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Speaker 1: understand how these things would cause anxiety, but how do

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Speaker 1: you deliberately bring the playfulness into it?

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Speaker 2: Well, you make it always great fun it's a big adventure,

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Speaker 2: it's serious work, but you don't take yourself too seriously.

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Speaker 2: I constantly tease gently, I should say, my staff. That's

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Speaker 2: my form of telling you that I really like you

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Speaker 2: and I think you're great is if I gently tease

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Speaker 2: you or make a joke, not at your expense, but

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Speaker 2: just to lighten the mood. And so that is very welcome,

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Speaker 2: that sense of sort of playfulness, that sense of family,

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Speaker 2: the sense that we really care for each other as well.

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Speaker 2: Like I've mostly talked about the more sort of cutting

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Speaker 2: edge and driving aspects of the business, but the fact

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Speaker 2: is that is that most people who arrive in that

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Speaker 2: working environment have never been in the working environment that

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Speaker 2: feels like at can before. That's not to say that

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Speaker 2: it's better or worse. It's just very different, and it's

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Speaker 2: deliberately different. And there's various means and ways that we

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Speaker 2: employ to cultivate that feeling. And it's always always the

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Speaker 2: team first, never the individual first. The individual needs can

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Speaker 2: be met, of course, and we allow space and time

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Speaker 2: for that to happen through people being able to develop

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Speaker 2: their own recipes. And I've never said no to anybody

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Speaker 2: that wanted to create something to show me and to

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Speaker 2: make a moment in the day, and I would buy

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Speaker 2: those products to do that with so that they can learn,

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Speaker 2: so that when they leave aut it for eventually they

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Speaker 2: have those skills. But there's just a sense of kind

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Speaker 2: of caromaraderie amongst our teams and a sense of givenness

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Speaker 2: and a sense that nobody is better than anybody else

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Speaker 2: in that environment. We're on the same level. And that

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Speaker 2: includes me, who's completely prepared to jump in to wash dishes,

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Speaker 2: to unpack deliveries, to do the clean the toilets, to

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Speaker 2: do any of the things that are required to be

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Speaker 2: done in my business at a moment's notice.

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Speaker 1: I want to come back to what you said about

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Speaker 1: customers throwing dietary requirements at you on the night, because

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by what then goes on behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: And I say this as someone who is highly annoying

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Speaker 1: as a restaurant diner, because I'm low FODMAP. Oh what

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. So what would happen if I, like twelve

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Speaker 1: months ago, had dinner at Attica and I'm like, hey, Ben,

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Speaker 1: I'm low FODMAP, but I didn't tell you before I

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Speaker 1: made the booking, Like what goes on behind.

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Speaker 2: Me deanlight that that's the greatest thing in the world,

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Speaker 2: that the thing that anybody's ever said to us for one,

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Speaker 2: which really trying to make you feel like that is

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Speaker 2: no issue at all, and it isn't, because what we're

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Speaker 2: trying to do is we're trying to make the experience

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Speaker 2: that you're going to have, no matter what your circumstance,

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Speaker 2: likes or dislikes, are the best that you've ever had.

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Speaker 2: And one of the ways that we know how to

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Speaker 2: deal with that is by taking every request and every

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Speaker 2: allergy and every dislike very seriously, because often people that

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Speaker 2: have allergies and have dietary conditions have never really been

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Speaker 2: treated very well in a restaurant before. So often it

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Speaker 2: will be the first time that their concerns and their dislikes,

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Speaker 2: and they're very real and serious elergies have been taken

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Speaker 2: very seriously, and so it really comes down to this matter.

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Speaker 2: It's basically that we have a full time staff member

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Speaker 2: just to deal with those things, and that person writes

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Speaker 2: incredible amounts of data lists, diagrams on the menu that

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Speaker 2: we have. As it is, so most of the senior

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Speaker 2: staff or everybody really immediately knows when you say that, Hey,

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Speaker 2: amanth they can't have this, can have can have that.

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Speaker 2: But then sometimes we wouldn't have catered necessarily for your

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Speaker 2: range of directory restrictions, because if we do and there's

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Speaker 2: nobody booked them, then that will be wasted. So we

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Speaker 2: may have to run across the road or go down

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Speaker 2: to Elwood, or run down to Leaf which is a

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Speaker 2: great local supermarket, and buy some extra things. But that's

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Speaker 2: okay too. We're completely prepared to do that, just like

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Speaker 2: completely prepared to jump in the car and go to

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Speaker 2: Dan Murphy's for a can of VB if that's really

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Speaker 2: what somebody wants, If that's what they really really want,

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Speaker 2: and nothing else will do you know, of course that's

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Speaker 2: what we'll do.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Now. When I was preparing for this interview,

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Speaker 1: I read that there is one rule that you usually

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Speaker 1: tell your staff before they start working for you. Can

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Speaker 1: you share what that is?

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Speaker 2: There's a very simple rule. It's that there is no

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Speaker 2: negative attitude allowed in my businesses.

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Speaker 1: What's the reaction when you tell people that?

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Speaker 2: If I'm an interview and or recently interviewed probably forty

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Speaker 2: different people for positions that are new place in the

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Speaker 2: Ara Valley, and as I said, across from you, I

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Speaker 2: will ask you about yourself, where you've come from, where

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Speaker 2: you've worked, where you're living, what do you like. And

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to disarm the person who I'm interviewing, because

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Speaker 2: how often really nervous, and I understand that feeling of nervousness,

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Speaker 2: and you really want a job, So I'll try to

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Speaker 2: disarm them, and I'll be very warm and friendly, and

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Speaker 2: often Kylie or one of the other staff members will

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Speaker 2: ask the more pointed questions about what was the what

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Speaker 2: would your last employee, what was the worst thing your

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Speaker 2: last employer might say about you, or something along those lines,

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Speaker 2: trying to get to honesty. But there's really only one

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Speaker 2: thing that I want to say to people and one

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Speaker 2: thing that I want to hear. So at some point

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Speaker 2: I will say, so, there's only one rule here there

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Speaker 2: at Attica, and that is that there is no negative

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Speaker 2: attitude allowed. And I will go on to detail that. So,

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Speaker 2: for me, negative attitude is talking back to somebody, being rude,

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Speaker 2: being disruptive in a negative way, dropping your shoulders, sulking,

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Speaker 2: muttering under your breath, being lazy, obviously not showing up

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Speaker 2: for work, on time. That's negative attitude. And so I'm

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Speaker 2: very clear about what negative attitude is. And then I'll

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Speaker 2: go on to say what is not negative attitude? What

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Speaker 2: is not negative attitude is if you ever harassed, made

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Speaker 2: to feel intimidated, touched and appropriately, God forbid any of

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Speaker 2: those sorts of things, that is not negative attitude. Now

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Speaker 2: I want to know about those things immediately if they

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Speaker 2: ever happen to you in my workplace, and then they

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Speaker 2: will be dealt with quickly and succinctly. And so I

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Speaker 2: make that definition because I'm asking people to not have

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Speaker 2: any negative attitude, but it doesn't mean that they have

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Speaker 2: to beary real problems that they might face in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: So once that's clarified, I then look them in the

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Speaker 2: eyes and say, hey, can you commit to that? Can

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Speaker 2: you be that person? Can you be the person that

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Speaker 2: comes to work every day who says hello to everybody

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Speaker 2: and gets on with their work in a really productive,

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Speaker 2: team orientated way without any negative attitude? And if they

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Speaker 2: say yes, I expect them to actually verbally say and

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Speaker 2: commit to it. And then I say, I'll remember that

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Speaker 2: we had this conversation, and if I ever seen your

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Speaker 2: negative attitude we'll be having conversation about it straight away.

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Speaker 2: Now that sounds hardline and hardcore, but what it does

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Speaker 2: is it just sets the standard from the beginning that

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Speaker 2: negative attitude is intolerable to me and to the other

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Speaker 2: people that work and in our work environments. And this

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Speaker 2: comes from a place of not running the business the

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Speaker 2: way that I wanted to in the past, and having

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Speaker 2: basically a bunch of negative people who I let be

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Speaker 2: negative because I was such an inexperienced and incompetent manager.

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Speaker 2: I didn't address any of the issues, and that got

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Speaker 2: so bad that it nearly destroyed the business, and it

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Speaker 2: nearly destroyed me. It put me in a massive hole,

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Speaker 2: and it really made me not want to be a

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Speaker 2: chef and not want to run Attica. So coming out

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Speaker 2: of that time, those people left and I took ownership

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Speaker 2: at the restaurant, I had the chance to build it

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Speaker 2: exactly how I wanted it, with the culture exactly how

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Speaker 2: I would want it to be. And so just by

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Speaker 2: having those simple conversations at the beginning, it really eliminates

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Speaker 2: just about all of the problems. And nobody can say

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Speaker 2: that they weren't warned. If they do become negative, it's

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Speaker 2: a very easy thing to sit down and have a

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Speaker 2: conversation about what's going on with you. We had this discussion.

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Speaker 2: You know what the standard is and you're not meeting it.

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Speaker 2: How can we meet it? Or do you need to

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Speaker 2: consider another place to work?

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Speaker 1: How do you keep yourself in that positive mindset? With

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Speaker 1: that positive.

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Speaker 2: Attitude, I'm pretty sunny generally. I love my work. I

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Speaker 2: love being at the restaurants, and I have an amazing

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Speaker 2: partner in Kylie, who I work with every day and

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Speaker 2: we really keep each other in check as well. I

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Speaker 2: also have very much a staff of people that give

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Speaker 2: feedback rather than just say yes, I don't that's not

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Speaker 2: helpful to me. So I know that if I was

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Speaker 2: if my own actions weren't up to what I was

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Speaker 2: asking of other people and went up to the company's standard,

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Speaker 2: then people would pull me aside and tell me and

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Speaker 2: I would listen. But that's ever happened. I'm generally exceptionally

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Speaker 2: positive and I don't dwell on things. So if there

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Speaker 2: are mistakes made, and there are every day, of course,

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Speaker 2: there's always problems in business. That's really the definition of

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Speaker 2: businesses problems, So it's just about how you'll overcome them.

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Speaker 2: I don't dwell on them. I like to deal with

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Speaker 2: things in the moment. I don't like to sit down

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Speaker 2: and have a big monthly meeting about all the things

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Speaker 2: that went wrong. I like to deal with them every

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Speaker 2: day as I see them. So people working for me

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Speaker 2: generally know if they've made a mistake, then I'll have

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Speaker 2: a discussion about it with them, but I won't hold

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Speaker 2: it over them, and the next day or the next

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Speaker 2: hour is a completely new thing and we'll move on.

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Speaker 2: And that's good for them, I think, because there's no

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Speaker 2: games and there's no uncertainty, and it's good for me

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Speaker 2: because I don't hold on to that stuff. Well, it

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Speaker 2: sits within me and I can't let it go. So

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Speaker 2: I have to deal with things like that otherwise I'll

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Speaker 2: go home and feel anxious about the mistakes or anxious

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Speaker 2: about the situation. We're anxious about the relationship. So I

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Speaker 2: like to deal with things quickly and positively and move on.

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Speaker 1: And how do you do that, Like, do you have

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Speaker 1: strategies for being able to move on so quickly?

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Speaker 2: I just think it's a part of my personality. I

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Speaker 2: don't like a lot of negative conflict in my life.

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Speaker 2: I like harmonious relationships. I don't like filling out with people.

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Speaker 2: I think that most things can be able become a case.

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Speaker 2: When they can't, you just part ways. But even then

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Speaker 2: I don't have the capacity to hold anger towards people

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Speaker 2: within me. It's a very destructive thing. It doesn't help

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Speaker 2: me lead a happy and fruitful life. It doesn't help

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Speaker 2: the company. It's just best to stay classy.

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Speaker 1: It probably would be the way that that's a nice motto.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, it's time for a little ad break. But

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Speaker 1: can I ask a favor of you? If you're enjoying

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Speaker 1: how I work, I would be so grateful if you

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Speaker 1: could hit pause on this show and pop into Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this from and leave

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Speaker 1: a review. You can do that by clicking on the

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Speaker 1: star rating or writing a comment. And aside from the warm,

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Speaker 1: fuzzy feelings, this will give both you and me, it

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Speaker 1: also helps other people find out about how I work.

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Speaker 1: So thank you in advance. Okay, Ben Shuri, We'll be

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Speaker 1: back after this break to talk about how we can

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Speaker 1: all level up cooking skills at home. Now. I want

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Speaker 1: to shift gear into cooking tips because I imagine the

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Speaker 1: listeners of how I work. Perhaps we're cooking a fair

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Speaker 1: bit at home prior to twenty twenty, but I imagine a

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Speaker 1: lot of listeners started cooking a lot at home. And

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Speaker 1: I want to know what's the difference between being a

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Speaker 1: kind of average amateur chef at home and being a

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Speaker 1: really impressive one. Like, what are some things that people

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Speaker 1: can do differently to level up there at home cooking prowess?

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so first and foremost, I have one standard

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Speaker 2: for everything, just one standard that I apply to everything

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Speaker 2: in life, whether it be cooking, whether it be relationships,

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Speaker 2: whether it be being a dad, whether it be financial

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Speaker 2: accountability or whatever. Like I'm not good at all those things,

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Speaker 2: but I have people helping me so that I seem

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Speaker 2: like I'm good at those things. But I just have

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Speaker 2: one high level. Now I want to meet that high

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Speaker 2: level on everything that I do every single day. So

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes how that applies to cooking is sometimes

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Speaker 2: different things in cooking are viewed at different values. So

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Speaker 2: if you were cooking a dinner party, it would be

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Speaker 2: really important that that dinner party be really awesome because

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Speaker 2: you want to impress your friends, whereas your breakfast might

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Speaker 2: have sucked a bit My approach to getting better at

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Speaker 2: cooking is just to apply one standard to every single

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Speaker 2: bit of cooking that you do. So don't make a

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Speaker 2: terrible breakfast. It's just as easy to make a great one.

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Speaker 2: So if you just try to take that approach, and

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Speaker 2: I imagine a lot of people that are listening to

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Speaker 2: this a pretty high treat achievers and a driven so

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Speaker 2: that they should already be familiar with a high level.

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Speaker 2: Just apply the high level that you have in your

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Speaker 2: life already to cooking. And with cooking, there's heaps heaps

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Speaker 2: of variables every day, and those variables are the oven

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Speaker 2: that you work with might not be the same oven

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Speaker 2: that you work cooked with yesterday. The tomato is definitely

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Speaker 2: not going to taste the same as they did yesterday

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Speaker 2: if they're not the same tomatoes. But even if they

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Speaker 2: are the same tomatoes you had for two days, are

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Speaker 2: going to taste different, especially if you get them on

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Speaker 2: the bench. The best cooking is always intuitive and is

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Speaker 2: with feel. So times and temperatures, while they be important,

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Speaker 2: feel is more important. Feel only comes from repetition, from

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Speaker 2: doing something time and time again. What is really helpful

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Speaker 2: to progress quicker in cooking, To go from being like

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Speaker 2: a good cook to a great cook is trying to

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Speaker 2: remember the data in one of two ways. Some people

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Speaker 2: can just retain it in their mind and other people

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Speaker 2: need to make notes. I would say if you're at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of your trying to get better at cooking phase,

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Speaker 2: then you should take notes, especially if you're making the

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Speaker 2: same thing. So if you make a bolin aise tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: write down what you did, and then afterwards write down

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Speaker 2: what was really good about it. The next time that

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Speaker 2: you go to make a bolin, you've got those notes

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Speaker 2: to refer to. Now you might want to make some

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Speaker 2: changes because you thought that maybe your source wasn't rich enough,

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Speaker 2: maybe it didn't have enough olive oil, maybe it needed

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Speaker 2: a bit more sugar because the tomatoes were to acid it.

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Speaker 2: You can move forward in the quality of that bottle

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Speaker 2: naze by remembering what you did the last time, and

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Speaker 2: then you'll reach a point after maybe ten times, where

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Speaker 2: you no longer need to refer to those notes or

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Speaker 2: even really think about it, because it becomes intuitive. So

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Speaker 2: that would be probably a pro tip is how to

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Speaker 2: get better. A lot of really good young chefs are

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Speaker 2: trying to get better take notes. Obviously, there's good and

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Speaker 2: bad recipes, and there's good and bad cookbooks, so I

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Speaker 2: suppose some of the classic cookbooks are often the best.

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Speaker 2: I think anything by Fergus Henderson, the celebrated English chef

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Speaker 2: from Saint John, those are really good, fundamental books on cooking.

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Speaker 2: Don't get too carried away with glossy, fancy, beautiful looking

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Speaker 2: restaurant cookbooks. I say this as somebody who once produced

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Speaker 2: a book like that, try to find something that's more realistic.

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Speaker 2: All good cooking in the world generally stems from home cooking,

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Speaker 2: including my cooking at Attica. I think Stephanie Alexander is

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Speaker 2: an absolutely amazing inspiration and a great book book author.

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Speaker 2: You can't go wrong with Stephanie or Maggie. Maggie Bear

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Speaker 2: is also another exceptionally gifted Australian cook. Neil Perry's books

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Speaker 2: are excellent. I really like Adam Leo as well. I've

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Speaker 2: got to say, as a both as a person and

434
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: as a cook, I think he's a really awesome person

435
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 2: for people to follow who cook at home. Sometimes chefs,

436
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 2: you know, sort of high end restaurant chefs like me,

437
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: can get a little bit caught up in the nature

438
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: of their work, so sometimes we're not the best to follow,

439
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: to be honest, in terms of trying to cook things

440
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: at home.

441
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: I want to dig into this idea of applying this

442
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: high level standard to everything that you cook, which I

443
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: find really interesting because I definitely don't do that myself,

444
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: and I want to know how do we do that

445
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: yet be efficient in the kitchen and not let the

446
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: preparation of a breakfast take an hour like a dinner

447
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: party preparation might take. What are some tips for being

448
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: more efficient and managing our time better when we are

449
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: trying to stick to that high level across everything we cook.

450
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: No, it's a good question. I would say though, that

451
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: it takes just as long to make a bad breakfast

452
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: as it does to make a good breakfast, if not longer,

453
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: especially if you factor in the lack of productivity that

454
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: you're going to have from eating that terrible breakfast and

455
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: how it's going to make you feel afterwards. So probably

456
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: the first and foremost thing about making a really good breakfast,

457
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: let's just say eggs, for example, eggs are not as easy,

458
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: you know as they might seem. To cook Eggs really

459
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: well as gain something that you should research and read

460
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 2: about and then practice so once you've got it down,

461
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: it's just really easy to make them well, whether it

462
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: be scroundwater or poached. To give you a little tip

463
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: on poaching eggs, something that I've learned to poach eggs

464
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: successfully is to have a pot of water that's a

465
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: bit deeper than you think it should be, and to

466
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 2: have a bit more volume of water than you think

467
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: you need. So I would probably be poaching eggs and

468
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 2: about twenty centimeters of water. I would have it just

469
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: below boiling, just a gentle summer. At the start, I

470
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: always put in a capful of white vinegar, not white

471
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: wine vinegar. White vinegar, the cheap stuff that helps the

472
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: eggs cook and helps the protein set nicely. And now

473
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: some people will swear by cooking eggs room temperature, others

474
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: from the fridge. I'm take from the fridge and cook egg.

475
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: Egg guy, no salt in the water. What I would do.

476
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: They would take a spoon and I will swirl that

477
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: water a little bit like a little bit like a whirlpool,

478
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: and then that will spin. That water will spin in

479
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: the saucepan. And then I'll take my egg and I'll

480
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: crack it directly into that gently swirling the water slowing

481
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: as I'm adding the eggs, And what that does is

482
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: it helps the egg whites that wrap around the yolk,

483
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: and you get a nicer shape. To try it next time,

484
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: I would then turn the water down a little bit.

485
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: I don't want it to summer or boil at all

486
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: as I'm poaching them, and then just very simply drain

487
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 2: the eggs, take the eggs from the saucepan with a

488
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: slotted spoon. I might just touch the bottom of the

489
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: egg on a paper towel, so my toast is not

490
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: soggy and proper bread, something with structure and really good butter.

491
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: Now you might be thinking, well, really good butter is expensive.

492
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 2: I always say it is expensive, but use less. You know.

493
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: That's kind of I guess, probably part of my cooking philosophy.

494
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: To buy the best ingredients you afford, you can afford,

495
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: and if you can't afford a lot of them, just

496
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: buy a small amount of them. Eat more vegetables, less meat.

497
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: That's the way to go.

498
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: What is the best butter? What should we be buy?

499
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: Well, if you're in Victoria, the best butter I think.

500
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to sound terribly arrogant. Here is

501
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: the butter that we make by hand at Attica. But

502
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: if you're just looking to buy butter, Gippsland, Jersey make

503
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: an exceptionally good cultured butter from Jersey cows. I prefer

504
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: the cream and the butter from Jersey cows. My father,

505
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: who was a dairy farmer at one point, referred to

506
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: Jersey cow milk as bovine wine and for me, they

507
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: have a richer and more full of flavor. Most of

508
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: the milk and cream in New Zealand than in Australia

509
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: I believe is from freezing cows and it's more about quantity.

510
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you can buy Jersey cream or Jersey butter,

511
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: it's always generally more yellow and rich. But yeah, the

512
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: Gippsland Jersey butter is really great.

513
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: And selfishly, I want to know how do you make

514
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: a good omelet because I feel like that's my go

515
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: to egg dish.

516
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: Sure give me some tips for that. The best eggs

517
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: you must start with the best eggs fresh.

518
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: And how do I know what are the best eggs?

519
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: Well? The best way to know if you're lucky enough

520
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: to be able to afford to go to a farmer's

521
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: market or to have a farmer's market close to you.

522
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: The best thing to do is to make friends with

523
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: the free range egg farmer at the farmer's market and

524
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: then you would be able to determine how old the

525
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: eggs are, and what the conditions on the farm are like,

526
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: and how many hens per squimeter and these types of things.

527
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: If you're so, if you really want to go that

528
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: deep into it, I would say avoid eggs from supermarkets

529
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: would be my would be my definite advice if you can,

530
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: because you just don't know how long they've been hanging around,

531
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: how long they've been in the distribution center before they

532
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: got to the supermarket, and how long they've even been

533
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: at the supermarket before you brought them. So if not

534
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: from a farmer's market, definitely from a small or a

535
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: local independent grosser, from a farm gate. I mean maybe

536
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: that's a little romantic, but just try to make some

537
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: kind of connection to it. Do your research, but also

538
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: buy different types, different ones, and just settle on the

539
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: ones that you like and the eggs that are consistent.

540
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: So once you've got good eggs, and it's actually not

541
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: a hard thing to buy in Australia, e. The good eggs,

542
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: we're very lucky. If you go to North America, good

543
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: luck trying to buy good eggs. So take the eggs.

544
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: And I like to do a two egg omelet. So

545
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: I've got my omelet pan. I should say as well,

546
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: So you need a lovely pan. That's really helpful.

547
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: What's a good omelet pan.

548
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: Well, I've got a pan by all Clad, allc Lad

549
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: all Clad. I like it very much. It's got a

550
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: copper core. It's quite an expensive pan. But again that's

551
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: a relative thing because the pan that I've got will

552
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: last my entire life. And if you buy it's not

553
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: a nonstick pan. If you buy nonstick pans, they're not

554
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: the greatest. They wear out in your life. You might

555
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: have twenty non stick pans, which would be more expensive

556
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: than my expensive all Clad pan. So again, if you

557
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: can afford it, the best pan. Like it's just a say,

558
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: a steel copper core pan, and sometimes saying the steel

559
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: pans are really sticky, but this one's not. It's smallish,

560
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: it's not huge. Say, it's probably got to twenty centimeter base.

561
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: And what I do is I have my eggs, I

562
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: crack them into a small bowl and I whisked them

563
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: with a fork, not a whisk. Why is that because

564
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: I don't want to break them up too much. I

565
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: want to break them up just enough. You'll still see

566
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: in my olmelets little bits of white. I don't want

567
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: to break down the texture and the structure of the

568
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: egg too much, and you can almost collapse it and

569
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: it becomes, in my opinion, tougher, and it's stickier kind

570
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: of to the pan and it's just not as nice.

571
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: So definitely with a fork. I like to have my

572
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: pan on a medium heat, not too low, not too high.

573
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: I like to put a little bit of olive oil

574
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: into the pan first, like I would say, a half

575
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: teaspoon and teaspoon, swell that around, whist my eggs. Most

576
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: of the time, I don't seize my eggs, but you

577
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: can season, but there's definitely skills of thoughts on whether

578
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: or not they should be seasoned. At that point, I

579
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: don't season them in the bowl. I add a knob

580
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: a good butter again, not any butter, but good butter

581
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: to the oil. And I watch foam now and it's

582
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 2: not going brown or black at this point, it's just fibing.

583
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: So it's got a good temperature, but that the butter

584
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: is not burning, I will pour the eggs into it,

585
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: using a spatula to get all of the egg out

586
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: of the bowl. That's approach it. You never leave anything

587
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: in the bowl for any preparation in cooking. Do not

588
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: leave anything in the bowl, no matter what you're making.

589
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: And I like to use a spatula to make my omelets,

590
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: a rubber spatula like some chefs seem to call them maurices,

591
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: but it's always just a spacheler for me. And I

592
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: use a heatproof one with a red handle and smallish

593
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: and I pour those eggs into that pan that' said

594
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: the moderate heat, and the butter is fimbing, but not color,

595
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: no color, And I just shake the pangently above the

596
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: element a little bit. I then allow the eggs to

597
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: cover the entire base of the pan and cook a

598
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: little bit. And then I quickly use my spatula to

599
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: stir them just once, and then I'll probably take the

600
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: pan off the heat and just let the heat of

601
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: the pan do the cooking of the omelet. Now, sometimes

602
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: if I'm putting something in it, I'd like to put

603
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: a small amount of gria or a parmesan or even

604
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: a soft cheese, and then I'm going to basically take

605
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: the handle of the pan in my left hand and

606
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to lift it a little bit so that

607
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: the pan is now on an angle sloping down towards

608
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: the stove, and I'm going to use the spatula to

609
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: roll my omelet into the shape of a cigar. This

610
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: is a very classic style of making omelets. What I'm

611
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: looking for is that nice, even round cigar. I'm letting

612
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: the omelet roll on itself. I'm using the gravity because

613
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: I've elevated the pan on an angle in my left hand,

614
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: and at the end or just give a little tap

615
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: to help the omelet form into the cigar. And then

616
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: i will use that same angle, the same sort of

617
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: awkward looking angle to put on the plate. Now the key.

618
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: In my opinion, omelets should have no color on it,

619
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 2: should be no brown on it at all. It should

620
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: be golden like yellow, the color of the egg. And

621
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: that's how I do it. I always want the omelet

622
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: to be a little bit runny in the middle, especially

623
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: as eggs will continue to cook in the pan, and

624
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: then a little bit when they're on the plate as well.

625
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: That is amazing. I'm feeling very inspired to be trying

626
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: that out after this interview, I want to know what

627
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: are like two or three basic skills that people should

628
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: focus on mastering again to level themselves up, but also

629
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: to potentially get some time efficiencies. Like for me, for example,

630
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: I think about cutting, and I know how I'm meant

631
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: to be cutting with my fingers, kind of like on

632
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: a right angle, but I just can't seem to motivate

633
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: myself to I don't know to do that. I'm sort

634
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: of willing to take the risk of chopping off my

635
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: fingers because it just seems too hard to change that habit.

636
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's one the basic skills

637
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: to master. But what should we be thinking about? Where

638
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: should we invest our time in terms of really upskilling ourselves?

639
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: Well, in terms of knives, I think there's two things

640
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: that spring to mind. Knives are important, Buying a proper

641
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: knife is important, and keeping it sharp is important. Now

642
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: most people will know that if you have a blunt knife,

643
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: it's really dangerous, and it is and I've been the

644
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 2: victim of a blunt knife. I cut myself incredibly badly

645
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: on the hand. As an apprentice with a blunt knife,

646
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: you want to find a cook's knife, and that is

647
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: the traditional knife that you think of when you think

648
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: of cooking. You want to find a cook knife that

649
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: suits you. There's a different and correct cook's knife for

650
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 2: every person out there. If you have finer hands, smaller hands,

651
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: and thinner wrists and you want a lighter, smaller cook knife,

652
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: you don't want a huge ten inch cook knife. That's

653
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: not going to be appropriate for you. That's going to

654
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable, unwieldly and difficult to use. Even you know,

655
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: I've got reasonable size hands and nothing huge and reasonable

656
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: size rests. I prefer a smaller cook's knife. I don't

657
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: like really big cooks knives. I want to control the

658
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: knife at all times, so therefore I want a smaller knife,

659
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: and I know where the tippers and I know where

660
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: the bladers all the time, and I'm minimalizing the risk

661
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: or injury to myself but also making better cuts. So

662
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: I would say go to a specialist knife shop is

663
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: the go, and there are a few in Melbourne and

664
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: throughout Australia. I really like chef's hat and talk to

665
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: the people there. Often in catering shops and knife shops

666
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: there might be somebody who was a former chef who

667
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: can advise you. I like Finder blade knives. Some of

668
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: the cheaper knives and the heavier German knives have a

669
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: very very thick heft and very thick heavy heel on them.

670
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: I don't like that. I have no affiliation with the

671
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: brand Lectro Knox, but I swear by their knives as affordable,

672
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 2: practical products. So while I have incredible handmade knives by

673
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: Australian blacksmiths, an amazing beautiful, stunning handmade and machine made

674
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: knives by Japanese knife makers, I also have rosewood handled

675
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: and plastic handled Victor Knox knives that I really like

676
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: using because they've got a fine blade and I find

677
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: the height from your chopping board to the handle to

678
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: be appropriate. Easy to sharpen because the steel is a

679
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: little bit softer. Some of the German steel is incredibly

680
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: hard and difficult to keep sharp unless you're a real

681
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 2: expert at it. Make sure that you have a steel always.

682
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 2: It would probably make a lot of knife experts out

683
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: there gasp and horror, but I like diamond steels. They

684
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: can chew through the babe of your knife, but they

685
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: allow me to keep an edge for longer and I

686
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 2: don't go hard on them because realistically, having a stone

687
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: and putting a knife on the stone on a weekly

688
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: or monthly basis is not practical for a lot of

689
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: busy people. So those are tips now in terms of

690
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: actually using the knife, practice by yourself a bunch of onions,

691
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: and practice on onions. Onion is probably the best thing

692
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: to practice on because they're probably the hardest thing to

693
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: cut well, especially brinoirs, which is the French word that

694
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: chefs use for fine dice of onion. So with an onion,

695
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: when you peel the onion, you need to make sure

696
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: that you don't cut too much of the core off,

697
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: only just a little bit. The core is where the

698
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 2: roots of the onion growing. Just trim it off slightly.

699
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: The other end where the tip is, just cut that

700
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: off slightly. Cut it in half lengthways through the core

701
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: to the tip, and then peel it and then put

702
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 2: the onion flat side down. And the technique to use

703
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: it's quite hard to describe in words without actually showing,

704
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: but the technique that I like to use it I

705
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 2: call it a crab technique with my hand. And what

706
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: that means is I have I'm a right handed cook,

707
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: so I have my left hand that will be holding

708
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: the onion, and I make what looks like a kind

709
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: of crab or claw out of my left hand, and

710
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: what happens, I basically protrude, protrude my knuckles further out

711
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: than the tips of my fingers, so I make it

712
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 2: impossible to cut the tips of my fingers with my

713
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: left hand as I'm holding food, and I run the

714
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: blade against my knuckles, and of course I don't bring

715
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: it up so much that it could cut a knuckle.

716
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: I keep it down low on the board or on

717
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: the food. So that's the best way to go. Make

718
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: sure that the knuckles are protruding. And it's really that

719
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: first joint on your finger, not the second joint so much,

720
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: even though you can use that second joint as well

721
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: to keep your blade square to the board. Practice cut,

722
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: like you know, buy every every shop that you do,

723
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 2: buy I don't know, four onions and makestock with them

724
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: or something like that. Four onions a week, and practice

725
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: trying to bring on them. There'll be heaps of YouTube

726
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: videos out there, but definitely practice and you'll be a

727
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: proficient in no time. That's the knife tip. The other

728
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: knife that I absolutely love again. I'm going to sound

729
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: like I'm an advertisement for Victor Rocks, and I certainly

730
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 2: have no affiliation with them, but they do the small serrated,

731
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: rounded tip powering knife, and this thing is unbelievable. Everybody

732
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: should have one of these in their kitchen, Like every

733
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: one of my kitchen has ten to twenty of these

734
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: knives for all the stuff to use, whether they have

735
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: one or not. It's just a really good utility knife.

736
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: I even use it on the building site when I'm renovating.

737
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: It's just an amazing knife. It's ten dollars or nine dollars on.

738
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: Another tip to get really good at cooking the main

739
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: tep it doesn't even involve cooking. The number one step

740
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 2: that I could give any person that wants to make

741
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: better food is get good at choosing your food. Get

742
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: good at knowing about food. Get good at knowing what

743
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: food is sustainable or more sustainable. Sustainable is a dodgy

744
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: word food. So the more you know about the ingredients

745
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: and the better ingredients that you select, the better your

746
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: food will be. That will be the biggest single factor

747
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: in improving your cooking. It is our outweighs your ability

748
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 2: to become technically proficient at anything. One of my greatest

749
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: skills as a cook is that I have the ability

750
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 2: to select the best food.

751
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: And how can we do that? How do we get

752
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: better at knowing how to select the best food?

753
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: Well? How does it taste? That's the number one thing, generally,

754
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: food that is more ethically grown. That is where people

755
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: are not just caring for the environment, but therefore caring

756
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: for you. Those grows, those people are making better tasting food.

757
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: It hasn't spent weeks or days or months in cool storage.

758
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: It comes from closer. It generally but not always looks

759
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: better because we've lost a little bit of perception around

760
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: the appearance of food. Sometimes things look great and they

761
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: don't taste great, especially if you're talking about apples or

762
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: stone fruit. But generally, find a green grosser that you

763
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: trust and that consistently has good food. That would probably

764
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 2: be the single easiest way to do it. Melbourne gain

765
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: no affiliation, but I totally believe in the food that

766
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: the small supermarket leaf sells. It's always good. It comes

767
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: from a lot of the same farms that supply Attica. Yes,

768
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: you pay more for that level of food, but good

769
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 2: food costs more to grow those farms are taken care

770
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: of their workers generally and taking care of the environment

771
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: as well, So that would be the number one thing

772
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: that will probably only be learned through the difference between

773
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: going and buying a supermarket tomato which never tastes good,

774
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: never ever does it taste good to me, and buying

775
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: a tomato and season from a small grosser that's maybe

776
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 2: never seen a core room before. That can be the difference.

777
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: And those differences between those ingredients are earth shattering and

778
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: anybody can identify them.

779
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And I got to say I'm such a

780
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: huge fan of leaf as well. Now I don't know

781
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: where this hour has gone. Man, I could just talk

782
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: to you all day, but obviously you've got work to do.

783
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: My final question is for people that want to consume

784
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: more of what you are making and doing, what is

785
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: the best way for people to do that.

786
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: Physically consume or online consume or all.

787
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: Forms of consumption. So, particularly for listeners in Melbourne, what

788
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: can they do and for all the listeners that are

789
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: outside of this lovely city what can they do well?

790
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: For listeners in Melbourne? I run two restaurants to businesses.

791
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: One of them is Attica it's in Ripentley. That's the big,

792
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: huge part of my life has been for fifteen years.

793
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: But recently we opened Attica Summer Camp, which is an informal,

794
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: more affordable, super fun, life affirming place in the Era

795
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 2: Valley that has been designed to help our companies survive

796
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: through COVID and to employ more people. Currently employee over

797
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 2: seventy staff. And that is noisy and beautiful and very

798
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 2: simple and very delicious. And we're cooking over huge charcoal

799
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: rotchessaries which is heaps of fun. And even better than that,

800
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: we have a dessert trally and incredibly talented team of

801
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: patry chefs churning out amazing things, including a sponge, which

802
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: I believe to be one of the best that I've

803
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: ever seen. It took me three months to develop in

804
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: lockdown and then online atka dot com dot au and

805
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: on Instagram at ben Shuri at Attica Melbourne at Attica

806
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: Summer Camp amazing.

807
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: I will link to all of that in the show notes.

808
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 1: And I happen to live about a ten minute walk

809
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: from Attica, so I'm definitely going to be walking down

810
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: today to buy some butter Ben. It's been an absolute

811
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: pleasure talking to you. I'm so excited to go and

812
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 1: cook some eggs. Thank you so much for your time, unreal.

813
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for the time, lovely chat.

814
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you have enjoyed

815
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: this episode, why not hit subscribe so you will be

816
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: alerted whenever new episodes are released. And if you know

817
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: someone that could maybe do with some tips in the kitchen,

818
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: maybe you might want to sh this episode with them.

819
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support

820
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: from dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode is

821
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: the wonderful Jennakoda, and thank you to Martin Imber my dad,

822
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better

823
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise. See you next time.