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Speaker 1: And Amanda jam We've joined in the studio by Steve

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Speaker 1: Van Apparn Poker Faces out on stan which I'm looking

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Speaker 1: forward to seeing. That's such a great, great show. But

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Speaker 1: Steve has come along here today and give us the

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Speaker 1: ins and outs of detecting. He's a human lie detect he.

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Speaker 2: Is, and he's worked with police departments and homicide teams

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Speaker 2: and all kinds of things for a number of years.

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Speaker 2: We're going to put his skill set to Looking at you, Brendan,

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Speaker 2: as I ask you some questions, why to me as

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Speaker 2: you put your hand up and said you'd do it

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Speaker 2: when you were tired after a meeting one day.

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Speaker 1: I think I was paying attention.

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Speaker 2: I know, so Steve, I think that Jonesy has I

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Speaker 2: don't think he can play poker because I think he

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Speaker 2: has such a girning face that he rubs his eyes,

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Speaker 2: he mimics and move. I think I can tell when you.

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Speaker 1: Often find that people. That's a tell when someone you

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Speaker 1: know how you going and they go I'm great, they

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Speaker 1: touch their face.

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Speaker 2: Is that really? Is that a talent?

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Speaker 3: What is We look for conflict or contradiction between what

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Speaker 3: a person's saying and what the body language is stating

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Speaker 3: so there are more neural connections between the hand and

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Speaker 3: the face than any other part of the body. So

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Speaker 3: usually it's what we call a masking, concealment, or blocking behavior.

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Speaker 3: So psychologically our hand goes up to our mouth to

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Speaker 3: block those false words really yeah, because we feel uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: about it. But at the last moment will be a

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Speaker 3: deflection like a nose touch, eye rub or something. If

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Speaker 3: you've got a decent itch, you give it a scratch

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Speaker 3: as opposed to just a cursory touch. So also behavioral

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Speaker 3: psychologists believe it's a way of offset and the anxiety

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Speaker 3: of being associated with knowing that they're telling a lot.

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Speaker 1: Because I saw the boss the other day and I said,

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Speaker 1: has a show going? He said, oh, it's so good

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Speaker 1: you got You're here forever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. But the FBI teacher agents to baseline or benchmark

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Speaker 3: then look for deviations from that. So if you've got

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Speaker 3: somebody who always does that and then you ask a question,

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Speaker 3: they do it again, that tells me nothing what we

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Speaker 3: look for. Does the question become the threatening stimulus which

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Speaker 3: engages a change in behavior, and they're evasive, a missive,

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Speaker 3: dismissive side step the issue, don't answer the question I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you both have been viewed politicians and they'll ask

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Speaker 3: you a question and they'll just deflect. Good journalists go

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Speaker 3: back and ask the same question again because there's usually

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Speaker 3: a pretty good reason when those red flags are there,

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Speaker 3: and that is because they feel uncomfortable with.

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Speaker 2: A question as just ask you this before we start.

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Speaker 2: Are women better at detecting lies than men?

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Speaker 3: Not only are they better at detecting lies, they're better

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Speaker 3: at reading body language because you have more evaluation centers

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Speaker 3: in your brain. So there was a study and they

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Speaker 3: found that women make better lies because there's less response latency,

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Speaker 3: arms and ours, and they can include more content, information, structure,

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Speaker 3: and detail. So sometimes I get people on stage and

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Speaker 3: I'll say, look, tell me you know a lie whatever,

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Speaker 3: And what will happen is often women will not only

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Speaker 3: create a false memory that never existed, they'll also create

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Speaker 3: a false conversation with someone that never existed. So it's

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Speaker 3: like lying twice within the one lie, whereas men's lies

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Speaker 3: are very basic, like you know I'm running late, or

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Speaker 3: you know no, your bum doesn't look bigger.

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Speaker 2: Though, Well that's question one.

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Speaker 1: Well, Steve, I say what do I do? I just

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Speaker 1: do I just I'm going to ask the question to

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Speaker 1: ask a question.

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Speaker 3: Now, bear in mind I can only see the top

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Speaker 3: of your head over this concept.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you I'm going to drop the desk.

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Speaker 3: Good, All good.

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Speaker 1: I just like blaying with the right Brendan His question

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Speaker 1: Do I look at Amanda or you?

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Speaker 2: I was just looking at He's looking awkward already. Brendan

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Speaker 2: His question One, This is from a listener. When you

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Speaker 2: say people have adelaide legs, what do you really mean

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Speaker 2: they're athletic legs?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I have a problem with that. When somebody

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Speaker 3: has a doubt, or they're not serious about something, or

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Speaker 3: they may not actually believe what they're saying, there'll be

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Speaker 3: a number of things that happened. The shoulder shrugged, the

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Speaker 3: eyes and hands usually up towards this, which is indicative

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Speaker 3: of doubt or uncertainty. So I'm not too sure on that.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying, lie, I think.

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Speaker 2: When you say athletic, you don't when you say adelaide,

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Speaker 2: you don't mean athletic.

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Speaker 1: I mean athletic.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it depends on what your definition of.

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Speaker 1: Where's that buzzy coming from?

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Speaker 2: All right, here's another one, Brendan, do you think that

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Speaker 2: I'm a good driver. Nah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look what I saw then was his body language

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Speaker 3: matched what he was saying. So he shook his head

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Speaker 3: in the nugget while saying no. So, yeah, I believe him.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's horrendous. Do you think you're superior to the

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Speaker 2: women who work here?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Of course not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually believe that.

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Speaker 2: Really? Yeah, you believe that he does?

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Speaker 3: Or does? No? No, I believe he's telling the truth.

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Speaker 3: And the reason why was sometimes I look for tonal

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Speaker 3: inflections and changes, and that was very direct. Usually truthful

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Speaker 3: people will answer the question very clearly, very succinctly, and

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Speaker 3: very directly, whereas deceptive people will often use an objection,

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Speaker 3: why would I do something like that? I'm not that

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Speaker 3: sort of person, But he answered the question very directly.

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Speaker 2: Here's another one. Would you be a better host of

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Speaker 2: Sunrise and Matt Shirvington?

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Speaker 3: Of course I would. Now this is interesting, right, because

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Speaker 3: this is an opinion question, So alive by definition is

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Speaker 3: where somebody wilfully misleads somebody knowing that what they're saying

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Speaker 3: is factually incorrect. But you're asking him a question that

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Speaker 3: calls for his subjective opinion. So can your opinion be

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Speaker 3: wrong or right? Is the question. So yeah, look, he

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Speaker 3: probably believes that's the case. He doesn't make it a.

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Speaker 1: Quagging in his boots this morning.

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Speaker 2: Right, here's one. A lot of people have asked me

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Speaker 2: to ask you have you had a crush on me

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Speaker 2: for twenty years?

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Speaker 1: Of course I have.

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Speaker 3: So what was interesting about that? It's quite an animated response.

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Speaker 3: And there was hand to face masking, concealment blocking behaviors,

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Speaker 3: and there was what I call the ant hill. I

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Speaker 3: remember watching Shane Warn being interviewed once and the question

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Speaker 3: has become a little bit uncomfortable in the slight shift

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Speaker 3: in the chair, a slight shrivel in the chair. So

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Speaker 3: usually if a question makes someone feel uncomfortable, there will

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Speaker 3: be some sign. In your case, it was to face moving.

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Speaker 2: And so SE's uncomfortable with that.

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Speaker 3: And also what we know through science is when a

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Speaker 3: person lies there, blink rate increases six to eightfold after

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Speaker 3: the delivery of the deception, not necessarily during it. And

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Speaker 3: that makes sense because you're looking at the interview and

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Speaker 3: you're thinking, does he or she believe this or are

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Speaker 3: they buying this story?

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Speaker 2: So can you train yourself not to have those traits?

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Speaker 2: Can you train yourself not to look like you're lying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I interviewed a clinically diagnosed psychopath, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of people say, I think psychopathy is one of

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Speaker 3: the most misunderstood words in the English language. A lot

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Speaker 3: of people think psychopaths people who go out and kill.

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Speaker 3: Not necessarily, You've guarantee both of you, at some stage

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Speaker 3: in your career have worked with somebody whose psychopathic behaviors.

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Speaker 3: A psychopath, by definition, is somebody who was recklessly oblivious

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Speaker 3: to the physical or emotional harm they cause somebody. So

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Speaker 3: if you and I applying for a job, I'll destroy you,

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Speaker 3: but I'll get the job. I don't care what happens

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Speaker 3: to you, but I get it. And there's a great

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Speaker 3: study done in the US and they found that even

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Speaker 3: psychopaths are not really good lives. The difference is you

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Speaker 3: or I may feel guilty about if we've done something

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Speaker 3: wrong with some minor misdemeanor, whereas they don't. They're more

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Speaker 3: concerned about being apprehended for their crime. But the tells

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Speaker 3: are pretty much the same. So everything from and usually

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Speaker 3: one of the things I always look for is breaking

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Speaker 3: into three parts, verbal, nonverbal, and paralinguistic. Parlinguistic is tone, pitch, voice,

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Speaker 3: modulation of response latency. When you felt uncomfortable, your tone changed,

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Speaker 3: and usually there's a slight tunnel change towards the end

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Speaker 3: of the sentence.

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Speaker 2: Right, can I ask a man of a question, Oh

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Speaker 2: don't I don't want you to.

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Speaker 1: Did you enjoy me in a pair of speedos when

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Speaker 1: I came onto the set of the living Room?

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Speaker 3: No, Actually, I believe one hundred percent that's true. And

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Speaker 3: the reason why is Professor Paul Ekman. Professor Paul Ekman

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Speaker 3: did a lot of research into micro expressions. Now, micro

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Speaker 3: expression takes place within one twenty five to one one

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Speaker 3: hundredth of a second. And you just showed the facial

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Speaker 3: expression of shock and horror. So your body language reflected

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Speaker 3: your exact answer.

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Speaker 1: Well, have you seen the footage, Steve? Everyone would agree

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Speaker 1: that was fascinating. Thank you for joining us, Steve. Season

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Speaker 1: two of Poker Faces out now on stand, Steve, Steve

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Speaker 1: van Appur, and thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, Thanks,