1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: When it comes to your work, do you have a 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: sense of purpose and meaning that you can turn back 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: to when things are hard? And how about your team? 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: How connected are they to why their work matters. Doctor 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Gabriella Rosen Kellerman is an author, a Harvard trained physician, 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: and the chief innovation officer at Better Up, and she 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: thinks about these questions a lot. Her research with Professor 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: Martin Seligman on thriving in times of uncertainty provides some 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: really interesting insights into how we can keep thriving at 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: work even when things are tough. In this episode, Gabriella 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,319 Speaker 1: shares why it is so important that you ensure your 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: team has a sense of meaning, the five biggest drivers 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: of resilience and they're probably not what you think they are, 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: and why prospection is one of the most important leadership 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: skills for the future. Welcome to How I I Work, 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day. 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber, with her work it 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: Better Up. Ensuring quick, effective ways to come up with 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: the most creative solutions is an essential part of Gabriella's 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: day to day. So I wanted to find out what 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: some of her go through rituals and habits are when 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: she needs to be thinking creatively. 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: So one of the strongest findings in creativity research around 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: individual differences is this personality type that's openness to experience. 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: So people who sort of wander around feeling wide eyed 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: about the world. And I feel very blessed that I 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: have that personality type. My father's a great example of 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: that to me. He wanders around the world noticing things 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: and asking questions, and he can have a conversation with 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: anyone and feel genuinely curious and like you really learned 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: something new. And I do feel that way a lot 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: of the time. I don't take it for granted. And 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,639 Speaker 2: as I've learned more about how to help people become 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: more creative, a lot of it is how do you 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: grow more into embracing some of the practices that constitute 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: openness to experience. When I'm trying to be really deliberate 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: about this, If I'm starting on a new topic in 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 2: a new area I want to learn more about, I 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: try to read broadly about it, so I will try 40 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: to get the canonical books and textbooks, but then also 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: try to reach back into my own memory bank of 42 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 2: things that might be tangentially related. They may not themselves 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: end up being useful, but they might be a bridge 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: to something else that's useful, or they might just sort 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: of awaken a part of my brain that wasn't paying 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: attention to the topic that now can be engaged and connecting. 47 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: And when we think about the default mode network, which 48 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: is this daydreaming network, it's where all these rich ideas 49 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: about creativity come from, somewhat non consciously and spontaneously. We 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 2: know so that it's putting ideas together, it's associating and 51 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: creating these sort of moments of what we call in 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: our book integration integrative creativity. And the richer we can 53 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: fertilize the soil of that default network with thinking broadly, 54 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: with new experiences, with curiosity leading us around unpredictable corners, 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: the more surprising those associations can be, and therefore the 56 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: more creative. So that's some of what I think I 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: naturally do, and understanding the science has helped me make 58 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: sense of why that's useful. 59 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: What else do you do, particularly when you've got a 60 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: really tight timeline, as is often the case with work projects, 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: what you need to think creatively have the kind of 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: different ways of flipping that creative switch on the darn 63 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: tech long. 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I love to source ideas from lots of 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: different people. So I have people I'll go to my 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: network who again might be very directly related or maybe 67 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: tangentially related, or maybe it's just like a very close 68 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: friend that I know will always take my call and 69 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: talk to me about something. And as we do that, 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: we're now opening up think about the network and how 71 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: it's exponentially growing with every person that we talk to 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: and the nodes they're able to access. So now the 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: surface area of those ideas has just grown so much 74 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: so quickly through that. One of the ideas we plant 75 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: for leaders in the book is, can you bring into 76 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: a brainstorm with your team someone who's a really divergent, 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: out of the box thinker in general, just someone who 78 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: can push, even in a time limited way, they can 79 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: really push the ceiling of what's an acceptable level of 80 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: divergence for the people in the room to get them 81 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: to go a little more out of their comfort zone, 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 2: get a little bit bolder with their ideas. So those 83 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: are often the kinds of people I might reach out 84 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: to and just get them thinking about things and look, 85 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: people like puzzles. We like to solve puzzle. So if 86 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: you can position your creative challenge as a puzzle, people 87 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: want to get engaged and think about it, and they 88 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: might email you two weeks later with a new ideas. 89 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: Gabrielle, It's something that I often do when I'm trying 90 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: to think creatively, is I will just take myself away 91 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: from my computer screen, which is generally where I'm trying 92 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: to type my ideas into, and I will just go 93 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: for a walk and it will be a technology free walk, 94 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: just to force my brain to just be expansive and 95 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, not constrained to just the incoming stimulus that 96 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: might be On the podcast, I'm listening to what science 97 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: is there behind that approach, And if there is science, 98 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious, is this something you do as well? 99 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and yes. So I'll start with the science 100 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: and then I'll tell you about how I do it. 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: So now there's three networks involved in creativity. The Defutment network, 102 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 2: which I mentioned this daydreaming network, the executive Control Network, 103 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: which is the network that's sort of they tell you 104 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: to remember the name of the street you grew up on. 105 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: That's the one that helps you do that. And then 106 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: we have the salience network, which is sort of like 107 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: when you hear a siren in the background. It's the 108 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 2: one that gets you to pay attention outed dras your 109 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: attention from one thing to another. So we think that 110 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: the way this works is something like the following. You 111 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 2: get a creative challenge at work, you start working on 112 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: it with the executive control network with your team, put 113 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: it aside, you go out and you grab your lunch. 114 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: Now your daydreaming network's working on it, even when you're 115 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: not consciously trying to. You might have a surprising association 116 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: that comes up that's actually quite useful. Your salience network 117 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: picks it up, says, ah aha, there's an important idea here. 118 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: Let's pay attention. And it brings it back to the 119 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: executive control network. When we are too digitally connected and 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: we're checking our email and we're on messengers and we're 121 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: checking the news, we're staying in the executive control network. 122 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: We're not letting ourselves get into the default mode network 123 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: where that daydreaming happens. So the richest daydreaming happens when 124 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: we're on autopilot. As an executive control network, we are active, 125 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: so we're not just lying and staring at the ceiling, 126 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: but we're not using our kind of working memory, we're 127 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: not paying attention to something, so you can have what 128 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: you just describe, that beautiful sense of daydreaming and kind 129 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: of flow my whole life, I have practiced observing a 130 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: twenty four hour technology sabbath from sundown on Friday night 131 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 2: to sundown on Saturday. We do that in my family. 132 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: It's I think, been really helpful in creating a less 133 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: dependency on devices. But for sure, the richness of the 134 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: thinking and the ideas that happen when you can unplug 135 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: from devices is really powerful. And you know, it's one 136 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: of the many ways in which these devices are changing 137 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: the ways we function as human beings in a way 138 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: that is not how we evolved, and it's in some 139 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: ways depriving us of some of these really rich, meaningful, 140 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: beautiful experiences that just get interrupted by the constant busyness 141 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: of the devices. 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: Trying a digital sabbath is something I've experimented with, and 143 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: I don't do it for a twenty four hour period, 144 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: but on the times where I've done it for several hours, 145 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: it's quite amazing just how your brain opens up in 146 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: ways that just don't seem possible when you're connected, particularly 147 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: to your phone. You know so much of the day. 148 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: Something I would love to delve into is around purpose 149 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: and meaning and mattering. And I found this such an 150 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: interesting part of tomorrow Mind because I feel like most 151 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: companies talk a lot about purpose these days. But then 152 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: I loved the things that you said around meaning and mattering. 153 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: So to start, can you just share what those three 154 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: concepts are and then we might delve deeper into them. 155 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: So meaning is what my coatho Marty Salomon calls a 156 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: flabby concept. 157 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 158 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: There's a lot of different meanings to the word meaning. 159 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: The psychologists make all Stigger has this definition that there's 160 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: three different components to meaning. There's purpose, there's coherent, and 161 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: their significance. So significance is that my life has meaning, 162 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: there's some significance to me being here. Coherence is this 163 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: idea that there's a greater integrity of my actions with 164 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: something larger that it all somehow fits together. And purpose 165 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: is that there's something bigger than I'm kind of working 166 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: toward and pushing for. Mattering is what we think of 167 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: as like a very bare minimum level of significance, whereby 168 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: I feel that the labor I'm putting out there in 169 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: the world is for a purpose, It's seen, and it's 170 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: not for naught, and at a clinical psychological level, and 171 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: people lose a sense of mattering, they can't even get 172 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: out of bed to start the day, right, So the 173 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: extreme end of not mattering is depression in the workplace. 174 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: Some of our professions, some of our labors are meaningful 175 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: in a colloquial sense of they might be attached to, 176 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: let's say, as a healthcare provider saving a person's life, 177 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: and some of us are doing labor that feel much 178 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: more removed from immediate meaningful impact for other human beings, 179 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: for sense of integrity, for service to the planet. As managers, 180 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: whatever we're asking people to do, we need them to 181 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: be able to feel that their labors have registered to us, 182 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: that they matter, that we see them doing that thing. 183 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: That is the bare minimum of a person continuing to 184 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: be motivated to keep putting in the effort day after day. 185 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: And in this day and age when we are as 186 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: managers are very often asking people, hey, that thing that 187 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: you work so hard on for six months, remember that 188 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: stop doing that thing and start doing this totally different 189 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: thing because the industry change, the world changed, what the 190 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: market change, whatever it was. That's a crisis of mattering. 191 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: That's a crisis where the employee is asked themselves, why 192 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: did I just do that for six months? And why 193 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: is it going to matter for me to do this 194 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: next thing? So that's where we define this sort of 195 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: bare minimum of what a manager needs to do to 196 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: help people stay motivated, and really what we owe people 197 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: if we're asking them to work on something, we owe 198 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: it to them to witness that work and to have 199 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: it be seen and to have them feel that that 200 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: was not all for not. 201 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: How do you approach that as a later in terms 202 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: of remembering that, because there's so much to remember and 203 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: to do to be a great later. These days, I 204 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: feel like their responsibilities are greater than ever. It seems 205 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: very basic, but I can imagine that a lot of 206 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: ladies don't do it. How do you think about it 207 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: in your role? 208 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, I think about it all the time, 209 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: and every time I share this insight and this idea 210 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: of as managers, when we ask people to pivot, I 211 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: think about at that exact moment, where am I asking 212 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: my team to pivot and where do I need to 213 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: remember to go back and do this? So I do 214 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: try to pay attention to it most at these pivot moments. 215 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 2: I try to pay attention to it. When we are 216 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: reading out on metrics and performance. You know, that's a 217 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 2: moment where your team might miss a metric, but it 218 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: might be a for a reason that was out of 219 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: their control or despite the fact that there was a 220 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: lot of effort that was put in, And so how 221 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: do you witness the effort? How do you witness the 222 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: intent even while helping the team grow and evolve to 223 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: the next chapter. So I try to narrate the utility 224 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: of the effort as much as I can when I 225 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: know that we're shifting away from or trying to learn 226 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: something about where it could be better, because I know 227 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 2: that's when it's the threat happens. And then in general, 228 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 2: when we have good hygiene and good practices around recognition, 229 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: which is something I think all of us can get 230 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: better at. But recognition is an antidote and it's almost 231 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 2: a vaccine for a crisis of mattering. If people feel 232 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: you're someone who's recognizing them and who's seeing what they're doing. 233 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: Then they'll be more trusting about leaving something behind and 234 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: going to something new. 235 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: We'd love to talk about resilience because when I was 236 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: reading Tomorrow in Mind, I thought, gosh, Gabriella must be 237 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: the most resilient person with everything she knows about it. 238 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: And I was really fascinated by the model that is 239 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: in the book around the five biggest drivers to resilience 240 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: because I think that they're a little bit surprising. They're 241 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: different to I think what pop psychology puts out there, 242 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: and I'd love to go into some of them. And 243 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for listeners that thinking, what are 244 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: these five things? So there's emotional regulation, which I would 245 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: love to start on. There's optimism, there's cognitive agility, self compassion, 246 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: and self efficacy. And I am curious because all of 247 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: those variables, if you like, things that we can shift 248 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: in ourselves as humans, which is why I love it, 249 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,119 Speaker 1: because it suggests that anyone can be significantly more resilient 250 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: by just practicing the right things, if you like, within 251 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: a relatively short space of time. So emotional regulation, I 252 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: feel like, even as an adult, this is something that 253 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: I struggle with, particularly in times of intense dress at work. 254 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: And I would love to know what do you do, 255 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: what have you found works for yourself in terms of 256 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: emotional regulation. 257 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: I think for myself and for all of us, this 258 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: is an ongoing area of development that very seldom does 259 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: a human being feel they've mastered emotional regulation. And I 260 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: would say most of the time they feel that they're 261 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: not correct. So if you feel you have work to 262 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: do here, you are not alone. And it is really 263 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: a lifelong journey, and I think it's one of the 264 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: things that constitutes wisdom, and you know something that we 265 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: gain their experience in learning and seeing ups and downs 266 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: and knowing that it's going to ultimately be okay. I 267 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: will tell you one of the more important learnings for 268 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: me about resilience and emotional regulation in the last five 269 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: years or so, when a number of very significant things 270 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: have happened in my life personally, is remembering knowing that 271 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: the people who are most resilient, it's still really hard 272 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: when those things happen. Initially, that resili doesn't mean it 273 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: doesn't feel incredibly painful and challenging, and you may cry, 274 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: and you may scream, and you may be furious, and 275 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: all of those emotions, they're big and they're negative, and 276 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: people who are resilient still have them, especially when things 277 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: are really hard. Where the growth comes from, and you 278 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: know the extreme side of resilience is this idea of 279 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: post traumatic growth or anti fragility, that we can actually 280 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: grow stronger through those experiences, is how we metabolize it, 281 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: how we make meaning from it, and how we come 282 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: back more centered and grounded as a result of that. 283 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean that it doesn't still hurt in 284 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: the moment. So that's one thing that I use to 285 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: comfort myself around that and to give myself grace and 286 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: space to have those emotions. I also do a lot 287 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: for myself around time. So the moment the news happens 288 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: is incredibly painful, the hour, two hour, day afterward, But 289 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: if we can intellectually remind ourselves that even another day later, 290 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: even another three hours later, it's going to get better, 291 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: it's a source of reassurance and optimism, and it helps 292 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: keep me from kind of spinning out. There's the emotion, 293 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: and then there's this spinning out about emotion, and so 294 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: these strategies are what helped me stay grounded in the 295 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: emotion itself rather than exacerbating it with my emotions about 296 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: the emotion. 297 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: Something you write about, I think in the book or 298 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: possibly on a blog on Better Up is the feelings 299 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: wheel where and I find this so helpful. I find 300 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: this particularly helpful for my ten year old daughter as well, 301 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: where just the act of actually naming what feeling I 302 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: am experiencing actually helps to kind of dull that experience, 303 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: which is quite helpful when you're experiencing an intense negative emotion. 304 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: Is that something that you have used yourself? 305 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: I do. I particularly use it with negative emotion, you know, 306 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: And I'm trying to disentangle hurt from anger from fear. 307 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: And you know, the reason we think this works so 308 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: well is that that disentangling, it's an intellectual exercise. So 309 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: it takes us out of the limbic system and kind 310 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: of into the forebrain. It distances us, as you said, 311 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: dulls a little bit from the emotion. And I do 312 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: find it effective. And I also again like this, you know, 313 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: painfully hopelessly curious person. I just start to get really 314 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: curious about that, and why did I feel that emotion 315 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: and not that emotion, And why do I tend to 316 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: feel that type of emotion and not that emotion when 317 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 2: another person might feel differently, So I try to use 318 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: it as a tool for curiosity and shifting into, you know, 319 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 2: a slightly more intellectual mindset. 320 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: And what I'll do, I'll put a link to the 321 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: feelings wheel in the show notes. It's quite an amazing, 322 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: quite beautiful looking wheel that really, at least I don't know, 323 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: it must be like seventy or eighty emotional labels, and 324 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: it helps when you're feeling a bit confused about exactly 325 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: what you're feeling, to help identify that. So I'll link 326 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. Now, something that did 327 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: surprise me, but I guess when I thought about it, 328 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: of course it makes sense is the impact of optimism 329 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: on feeling resilient. I would love to know how do 330 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: you foster optimism in yourself? 331 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, the research on it is so profound. It is 332 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: something for those who are less familiar that people who 333 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: are more optimistic live longer, people are more optimistic, recover 334 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 2: from cancer and cardiac disease more efficiently and effectively. In 335 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: our at lower risk for cardiac disease, that it could 336 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: be such a powerful signal of physical health made it 337 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 2: even intellectually of interest to me. So that was how 338 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 2: I first got to the conviction that I wanted to 339 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: work on optimism, and then as I took it forward 340 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: to bring the practice into my own life, I looked 341 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: for windows where I had an optimistic thought that I 342 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: then shut down, and I tried to notice when I 343 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: was doing that and why. 344 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: For me. 345 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: What I discovered is it's not that I don't have 346 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: the optimism. I'm just overwhelming the optimism with paranoia and 347 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 2: negativity that was not serving me while at least in 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: certain key situations. 349 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: We will be back with Gabriella soon. When we return, 350 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: we'll be discussing what cognitive agility is and how you 351 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: can develop it, as well as how to get better 352 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: at prospection, which Gabriella believes is one of the most 353 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: important leadership skills for the future. If you're looking for 354 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: more tips to improve the way you work can live. 355 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 356 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 357 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 358 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: I'd love to know about cognitive agility, which again I 359 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: read that and I thought, really, can you change that? 360 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: So tell me about cognitive agility and what that means 361 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: and what are some strategies you've used to improve that 362 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: in yourself. 363 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: So we talk about cognitive agility as the ability to 364 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: go back and forth between the forest level view and 365 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: the trees level view. The forest level view is where 366 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: we're scoping out opportunity and we're attuned to signals in 367 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,959 Speaker 2: the environment that are helping us figure out what to do. 368 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: And then the tree's level view, as we've decided what 369 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: to do. Now we're executing in that plan and we're 370 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 2: very heads down and focused, and we need to be 371 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: able to do both of those things. But cognitive agility 372 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: is about switching channels back and forth between the two. 373 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: That is what we find to be this incredible differentiator 374 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: in terms of resilience because when we're in a tight spot, 375 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: we need to be able to have focused effort to 376 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: get out of that spot, but we can't get stuck 377 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: in one approach, especially if it's not working or if 378 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: the context around us is changing. There's a lot of 379 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: interesting military research on this because you can imagine in 380 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: modern warfare, you have to be attuned to the signals 381 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: around you have to change strategies often, but you also 382 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: have to be able to just grit and push and 383 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: push and push in the trees level view of a 384 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: given effort. So that's what that means and how it's 385 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: connected to resilience. So I think that I am someone 386 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: who if there are people who have a tendency to 387 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: get stuck in the forest view and then their people 388 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 2: get have a tendency get stuck in the tree's view, 389 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: I think, if anything, I'm someone who has a tendency 390 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: to get stuck in the trees view. So I come 391 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: to conviction about here's how we should do something, and 392 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: then you know, I want to see it through. And 393 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: one of the skills that I work on and that 394 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: I help others work on as well, is when do 395 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: you know you need to check yourself and come back 396 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: up for air to look around. I do that, you know, 397 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: with my teams, at least on a quarterly basis. But 398 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: I think the other thing that really just naturally is 399 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: a useful force function for me given that tendency is 400 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: a lot of the work I do is very cross functional, 401 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: and it's more common than not that my cross functional 402 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: peers will have ecosystem signals that they want me to 403 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 2: pay attention to that might mean we need to change tack. 404 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: And so as long as I'm keeping in close conversation 405 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: with those peers who have their ears out, their sort 406 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: of scouts in the environment for things I'm not seeing, 407 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: I find it's a really helpful checkpoint for me to 408 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: make sure I'm coming up to scan the forest, if 409 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: nothing else, for the purpose of those conversations where we're 410 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: kind of realized our strategy. 411 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: And so you mentioned that you'll meet with your team quarterly, 412 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: and I guess it's distinct from doing an annual planning process. 413 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: Does that mean that you're potentially making quite big changes 414 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: every quarter as opposed to perhaps every year. Yeah. 415 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: Absolutely, new you know, new pieces come in, and we 416 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: actually review our metrics monthly in a semi formal way, 417 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: but they're sort of like a halfway through the court, 418 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: let's see how we're doing against these top line metrics. 419 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: And then in addition to that, there's again these signals 420 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 2: that come in, whether it's a major change in the market, 421 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: whether it's a new acquisition coming in that we need 422 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: to absorb and figure out where to work that into 423 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: the efforts and the resource allocation. So those things are 424 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: always it always creates sort of fair game to reevaluate everything, 425 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: and I say to my team maybe more often than 426 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: I should. I'm still not sure the right frequency to 427 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: voice this of like, good job, we got our map set. 428 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: Remember this is going to change, you know, because I'm 429 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: trying to just say like, we did a great thing, 430 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: we did the work we're supposed to do, and be 431 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: ready for this to change again. I'm actually trying to 432 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: get ahead of that mattering crisis that we talked about 433 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: and just to prepare that this is all. The change 434 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: is a huge part of the work and the job 435 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: to be done. 436 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: I find that so interesting because as a Lada, people 437 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: are looking to you for a clear direction and then 438 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: if that changes, that can impact people's trust in you 439 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: as a Lada. So how do you create that balance. 440 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: I actually have a whole talk on this topic because 441 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 2: I feel like prospection, which is one of the topics 442 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 2: in our book, our ability to see and plan for 443 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: the future is an essential part of what builds people's 444 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: cognitive trust in leaders today. So the sort of affective 445 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: emotional side of trust is more about do we think 446 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: our leader's benevol are they kind? They take care of us? 447 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: But the cognitive side is really we're judging someone's competence, 448 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: and in this day and age where we feel so 449 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: much uncertainty, we feel like we can't see what's ahead. 450 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: We are looking to our leaders to be the person 451 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: who can And that doesn't mean we expect them to 452 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 2: be fortune tellers, but we expect them to be spending 453 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: a lot, a lot, a lot of time thinking about 454 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: the future, planning for scenarios, allocating resources today to set 455 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: us up as best as possible against those future scenarios. 456 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: We don't expect them to be superhumans, but we do 457 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: expect them to put a lot of effort into that. 458 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: And where I think leaders often fall short today in 459 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: a way that does breach trust is with the statement, well, 460 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: there's no way to know. We just can't know, so 461 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: we'll tell you when we know what's going to happen, 462 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: but we just don't know. What people need to hear 463 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: is here's what we know, Here's what we don't know. 464 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 2: Here's the scenarios that we foresee on the basis of that, 465 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: here's the actions that we're taking right detailed flesh out 466 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: plans that reflect a lot of time and planning gives 467 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 2: the reassurance. Even in an environment where everyone accepts that 468 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 2: a lot of those plans will go by the wayside, 469 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: that's still the job to be done. It's part of 470 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: what we need to feel comfort that our leaders are 471 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: taking on as the burden of leading us in this 472 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: sort of foggy uncertainty. 473 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: How can we build out prospection skills? Because it do 474 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: something that you write about in the book, And there 475 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: was one exercise that I did particularly like, But maybe 476 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: I'll ask about that in the moment. I want to 477 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: know what are you doing that's helping you? 478 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, So perspection happens in two phases. The first phase 479 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: is very fast and optimistic. We think really divergently. So 480 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: if I said to you, think about where you might 481 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: be in your career in ten years, right, it might 482 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 2: be big, and all kinds of grand things might come 483 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: to mind. And then reality sets in. Here's where we 484 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: sort of shut down. I find I shut down my 485 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: own optimism. I get too pessimistic, realistic. And then for 486 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: the course of much longer a period of time, we 487 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: now start planning. So our colleague, the psychologist Roy Baumeister, 488 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: calls this dream big and get real, And each of 489 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: us goes through those phases. Whether we realize it or not, 490 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: we need to be good at both of those things. 491 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: When we study leaders who are really good at prospection, 492 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: they actually spend a lot of time in the get 493 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: real phase. In the planning phase. Again, it's scenarios. It's 494 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: what are all the ways this could play out? How 495 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 2: are we going to allocate resources? When are we going 496 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 2: to come back up to the forest level and reevaluate 497 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 2: all of those things. There is such a thing as 498 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: planning fatigue, just like there's decision fatigue. Getting better at 499 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 2: prospection is expanding our capacity for planning, and when it 500 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: all goes out the window, we do more planning and 501 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: then we guess what we wake up and we do 502 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: still more planning. And so for me, it's really pushing 503 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: myself to have more and more capacity for that when 504 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: it's not always the fun thing, it's not always the 505 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 2: thing I want to do, it's not always something that 506 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: feels gratifying, but I know that it's a huge part 507 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: of my role and if I'm not doing it, no 508 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: one else is going to take the time to do that. 509 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: For a mateam So I want to ask about the 510 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: new doors opening exercise, which he wrote about in tomorrow mind. 511 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: And in this particular experiment, the researchers gave people some 512 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: instructions and they are asked to do this once per 513 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: week for a month where the instructure has read after 514 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: difficult experience. As many people feel a sense of loss, 515 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 1: it feels that certain opportunities or doors have closed in 516 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: their life. Sometimes people find that new doors open and 517 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: new opportunities present themselves, and these new opportunities could be 518 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: almost anything. The existence of new opportunities does not mean 519 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: that losses are unimportant and less painful. Important losses can 520 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: exist alongside some potentially important new opportunities. We would like 521 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: to know if you've noticed any new doors opening in 522 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: your own life in the past six months. For the 523 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: next fifteen minutes, please write down whatever comes to mind 524 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: about these new opportunities or new doors. So people did 525 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: that once a wait for a month, and it yielded 526 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: some really impressive results. I'm curious to know your thoughts 527 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: on that study and maybe if that's an exercise that 528 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: you have used yourself or with your teams or customers. 529 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a beautiful study illustrating the ways that we 530 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: tell ourselves stories about what happened and why how it 531 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: has such a profound influence on our psychological well being, 532 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: our ability to recover, ability to move forward. That was 533 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: really a study of post traumatic growth, or what I 534 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: called earlier anti fragility. So how can we go through 535 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: something that is challenging and difficult, but within days, weeks, months, 536 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: on the other end, we're actually more centered and more 537 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: grounded and taking the time to think about what were 538 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: the opportunities that were positive from my life that came 539 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: in the aftermath of this hard, hard thing, and really 540 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: reframe the way we think about going through those challenges 541 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: to with. There's also a really lovely book called Redirect 542 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: by Tim Wilson, a psychologist, that talks about the broader 543 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: project of how we can retell our own life stories 544 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: in service of these different outcomes. And we're narrative creatures 545 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: if we understand the mechanics of it. The way is 546 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: that stories don't naturally form. We create them, whether we're 547 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 2: intending to or not. We can then start to be 548 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: much more intentional about how we tell ourselves the stories 549 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: we do. 550 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: How do you use that in your own life? When 551 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: you can hear a story going on in your mind. 552 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: I try not to tell myself a story until I'm ready. 553 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: So I try to actually just notice, observe, pick up signals, learn, 554 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: and the story I find does emerge through that process organically, 555 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: as I'm finding the right versus the wrong next step. 556 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: But I think that one of the mistakes that I 557 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: made when I was younger, and one of the mistakes 558 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 2: I'm still learning not to make, is to come to 559 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: that story too early, and to feel pushed to come 560 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: to that story too early before I have discovered the 561 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: wisdom to be gained from a situation. 562 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: What great advice to end on, Gabriella. I have loved 563 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: this chat. I find it such a joy when I 564 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: read a book that I love, and I got to 565 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: say Tomorrow Mind is one of the best books that 566 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: I've read this year. I just loved it. And so 567 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: it's been such a treat to have you on the 568 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: show and to pick your brain about certain things. So 569 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time. 570 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank you 571 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: so much for doing the work that you do and 572 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: helping so many people, and your very kind words. 573 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Gabriella as much 574 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: as I did. I know most of us recognize the 575 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: importance of praising those we lead, but maybe taking the 576 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: next step of using effective praise to give others a 577 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: sense of purpose and meaning could be what it takes 578 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: to get things to the level for you. If you 579 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: want to learn more about Gabriella, I highly recommend her 580 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: book Tomorrow Mind. It was so so good, and we'll 581 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: put a link for that in our show notes. If 582 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: you like today's show, make sure you get follow on 583 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. 584 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of 585 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation.