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Speaker 1: Now we know.

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Speaker 2: The Northern Territory Police Association have issued a statement saying

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Speaker 2: that they support the use of spit hoods and restraint

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Speaker 2: chairs to prevent members of the Northern Territory Police being

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Speaker 2: exposed to communicable diseases which well can have a long

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Speaker 2: lasting impact on a member's health. That is the message

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Speaker 2: that they've issued following reports of spit hoods and restraints

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Speaker 2: being used by Territory police. Now, the Northern Territory News

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Speaker 2: reported that officers have used spit hoods on children twenty

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Speaker 2: seven times since twenty eighteen at the Darwin, Palmerston, Alice Springs, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: Tenant Creek and Casarina stations. Now, the Police Union, like

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Speaker 2: I say, has jumped to the defense of its officers

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Speaker 2: and senior Vice president of the Police Association, Lisa Bayless,

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Speaker 2: joins me on the show right now.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Lisa.

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Speaker 3: That's good morning, Katie, Lisa.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time. Why are spit hoods

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Speaker 2: and restraints being used in police stations.

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Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately, the people that we arrest at times, they're

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Speaker 3: noncompliant and they do the revolting thing of spitting on

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Speaker 3: police and assaulting them and that's when we have to

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Speaker 3: use spi hoods and with restraints hairs. That's just someone

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Speaker 3: who is acting violent and harming themselves or harming others

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Speaker 3: in custody or damaging property, and that's when we need

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Speaker 3: to use restraint hairs.

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Speaker 2: So, Lisa, it's obviously being reported that they've been used

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Speaker 2: twenty seven times since twenty eighteen on people under eighteen.

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Speaker 2: You've sort of discussed it there, but what are you know, like,

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Speaker 2: what are the situations where it would be used? And

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that in some cases it is it's the

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Speaker 2: last resort here.

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Speaker 3: Look, it definitely is a it is an option of

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Speaker 3: last resort police. We use a variety of techniques. We

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Speaker 3: try to communicate, We try to de escalate the situation.

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Speaker 3: We talk to the people that we have in custody.

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Speaker 3: And if someone is intoxicated with drugs and alcohol, or

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Speaker 3: just angry refusing to to cooperate, refusing to listen or

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Speaker 3: to behave, if they if they're at the point where

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Speaker 3: they're spitting or attempting to spit at police and we're talking,

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Speaker 3: you know, obviously the possibility of communical communical diseases that

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Speaker 3: is transmitted from spit. There is that possibility that we're

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Speaker 3: faced with in the in the workplace, and when that

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Speaker 3: does happen, it is very distressing for the officer. It's

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Speaker 3: distressing for their families. We go through the process of

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Speaker 3: having a blood test and awaiting the results, and during

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Speaker 3: that time, you can't you can't be intimate with your

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Speaker 3: loved one, you can't kiss your children, and it's it's

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Speaker 3: a it's a traumatic experience that the police officer goes through.

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Speaker 3: So we have spitwoods in place to prevent that from

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Speaker 3: happening for the officer. And ultimately it's a work and

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Speaker 3: health safety issue that we're talking about. And sorry for.

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Speaker 2: Some people listening this morning, they'll be wondering, you know

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Speaker 2: what exactly we are talking about here when it comes

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Speaker 2: to those SPI hoods and also to you know, restraint chairs.

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Speaker 2: Are we talking about restraint chairs or are we talking

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Speaker 2: about you know, like hoods going over their heads. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know what exactly is it? For those out there

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Speaker 2: listening who maybe don't understand, Well.

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Speaker 3: Look again, there is strict policy and procedure around their use.

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Speaker 3: So if a SPI hood is placed on someone, they

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Speaker 3: have to be monitored. It's not just a matter of

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Speaker 3: putting a spihood and putting in a room and walking away.

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Speaker 3: We have to actually monitor the person to ensure that

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Speaker 3: they're safe. Ultimately, we've got a duty of care to

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Speaker 3: anybody who's in custody. And the way that the spi

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Speaker 3: hoood is designed, it's like a mesh. It's a mesh

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Speaker 3: front and if spit is that into it, it basically

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Speaker 3: prevents it from from going out and hitting people, hitting things,

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Speaker 3: and the process of having a spithood, it is monitored,

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Speaker 3: monitored by the people in the watchhouse. We've got a

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Speaker 3: customer nurse as well. If you're in the watchhouse with

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Speaker 3: a customer nurse will also be there to maitter. Same

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Speaker 3: thing with restraint chairs. We're talking about people who are

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Speaker 3: actively self harming, so they might be bashing their heads

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Speaker 3: continually on the floor or against a wall, and again

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Speaker 3: use we use the excalation techniques. We try to verbalize

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Speaker 3: and speak to people and prevent them from continuing what

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Speaker 3: they're doing. But if they're continually attempting to harm themselves,

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Speaker 3: we have a duty of care to them and that's

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Speaker 3: when a restraint chair is used and they're placed in

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Speaker 3: the restraint chair. It's done in a controlled environment, they're monitored,

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Speaker 3: they're watched by again to watch out people, the customers,

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Speaker 3: and there is a process with the intention being that

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Speaker 3: you want them to stop that behavior, you want them

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Speaker 3: to calm down. And there's again I say, there's lots

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Speaker 3: of policy and procedure around their use and it's under

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Speaker 3: strict conditions that we do it.

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Speaker 2: Lisa, how often would you say that our police are

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Speaker 2: being spat at?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I don't have the statistics. That's probably something

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Speaker 3: more that you'd need to ask the commissioner. But unfortunately

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Speaker 3: it happens quite often. We know that from our survey

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Speaker 3: the police are regularly assaulted and sometimes they don't report it.

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Speaker 3: It goes underreported. But I don't have the statistics. Is

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Speaker 3: it's an unfortunate thing, and I know that during COVID

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Speaker 3: there was actually a report of an increase. Initially we

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Speaker 3: got a member's contact offer saying that there had been

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Speaker 3: an increase in people spitting and there was a real

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Speaker 3: concern around that. But obviously this is more than just

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Speaker 3: the COVID climate. We're talking about the use of it

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Speaker 3: for the worst health and safety purpose.

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Speaker 2: And look, I think anyone who's been in the Northern

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Speaker 2: territory for a while. We'll obviously know we had the

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Speaker 2: Royal Commission. It acknowledged the risk of spitting in that

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Speaker 2: use justice context. It also had the recommendation that the

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Speaker 2: government should investigate other practical alternatives to prevent exposure. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I think at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: it's not as if the police are using this in

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Speaker 2: the first instance, is it. It's something that they're using

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Speaker 2: when they need to de escalate a situation or when

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Speaker 2: they have somebody who is you know, who is spitting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, you're absolutely right, it is. It's used as

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Speaker 3: an option of last resort. It's not in the first instance,

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Speaker 3: and we and it's not overused either. It's only used

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Speaker 3: when the circumstances are such that we're required to use

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Speaker 3: it for our safety. If we're talking spitoods and restraint chairs,

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Speaker 3: if the person is self harming, it's it is an

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Speaker 3: unfortunate situation when people, especially if we're talking children. If

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Speaker 3: someone that's under the age of eighteen, they come into

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Speaker 3: police custody, we don't want them in custody. We do

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Speaker 3: everything we can to make sure they're not in police custody.

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Speaker 3: But there are some circumstances where it is unavoidable, where

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Speaker 3: they remain in police custody and all the support services

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Speaker 3: that we have around that. There is obviously again significant

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Speaker 3: recommendations around people in custody and we don't want to

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Speaker 3: have them in custody. So if spithood is required or

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Speaker 3: a restraint chair, we're talking about a very serious incident

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Speaker 3: that occurs and it's not an everyday occurrence. It's something

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Speaker 3: that is is unusual and again, if we're required to

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Speaker 3: use it, we need to we need to seek approval

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Speaker 3: from a duty superintendent and explain our reasons why, document

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Speaker 3: our reasons why. And yeah, they're right.

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Speaker 2: It sounds as though it's quite the process to actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, to actually be using a spit hood or restraint.

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Speaker 3: When it's it is, but again it has to happen immediately.

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Speaker 3: We can do it, but we then have to we

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Speaker 3: have to report it up. It's for our protection. If

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Speaker 3: a spithood is used, we need to have it for

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Speaker 3: our protection in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: Lisa, have we had any situations in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: or you know, are there reports even you know, in

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Speaker 2: Australia at the moment of police officers being spat on

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Speaker 2: it and they're actually, you know, ending up with a

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Speaker 2: communicable disease.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, actually there is. In South Australia, there was a

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Speaker 3: police officer who when she was arresting a member of

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Speaker 3: the public, an offender, she was spat in in her

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Speaker 3: face and as a result of that, she contracted purpose

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Speaker 3: and it's had ongoing problems with it. Every six eight

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Speaker 3: weeks she has an outbreak. It's a very serious case.

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Speaker 3: It's inside her mouth and down her throat and it's

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Speaker 3: a hor horrendous situation. She there's a lot of campaign

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Speaker 3: around it from South Australia Police, but it is it's

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Speaker 3: an unfortunate reality. It's not just when we talk about

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Speaker 3: spitting it's in my eyes, bothering me. We're talking about

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Speaker 3: the transmission of a serious diseases that it will impact

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Speaker 3: you for the rest of your life. And the whole

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Speaker 3: point of having spithoods is to prevent that from happening.

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Speaker 3: And ultimately we don't want people spitting at police, but

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Speaker 3: people don't spit and we don't need to use spithood

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Speaker 3: That's ultimately what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Too, Lisa, to anybody out there listening this morning, who

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Speaker 2: was listening thinking, you know, we had a royal commission

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Speaker 2: that said that we shouldn't be using these types of

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Speaker 2: restraints and spit hoods. Surely we don't need to be

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Speaker 2: doing this on children as young as.

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Speaker 1: Twelve, which is what is being reported.

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Speaker 2: What would you say to them.

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Speaker 3: Well, ultimately, we don't generally have children and custody, and

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Speaker 3: anyone under the age of eighteen, we do everything we

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Speaker 3: can not to have them in custody, so we will

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Speaker 3: usually take them to a responsible adult, will take them

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Speaker 3: somewhere else and not see in place custody. If a

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Speaker 3: person is in place custody, that means all those other

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Speaker 3: options have been exhausted. If the person is violent, if

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Speaker 3: the person is spitting, if they're self harming, then we

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Speaker 3: are limited in our options what we can do to

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Speaker 3: protect the person and protect the people who are trying

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Speaker 3: to protect them. And ultimately we need the tools to

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Speaker 3: do our job, and we want the children to be safe.

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Speaker 3: We want our officers to be safe, and that's really

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Speaker 3: the police union. We want to make sure that members

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Speaker 3: go to work, they come home from work safe and

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Speaker 3: that's when we see the use of spittal and the restraints.

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Speaker 3: Share is essential to do their job safely well.

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Speaker 2: Police Association Senior Vice President Lisa Bayless, I really appreciate

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Speaker 2: your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for speaking with MEE.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Tony, thank you,