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Speaker 1: There are very few things that are more provocative than

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Speaker 1: talking about how responsive a new parent should be to

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Speaker 1: a crying baby, especially when that baby is so young

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Speaker 1: that they can't move themselves around where they have to

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Speaker 1: cry for our attention. Should we go to them straight

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Speaker 1: away and pick them up? Should we let them cry

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Speaker 1: it out, have a bit of a yell, a bit

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Speaker 1: of a scream before we pick them up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: every now and again, sadly I hear about some parents

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Speaker 1: who literally just let their babies cry because they apparently

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Speaker 1: have to learn. I'm talking about three, four or five,

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Speaker 1: even six month old children, which does concern me a bit.

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Speaker 1: New research has just been published which sheds a little

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Speaker 1: bit of light on maternal responsiveness to infant distress. This

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Speaker 1: is a brand new study that has been published in

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Speaker 1: Developmental Psychology, and today we talk about how maternal responses

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Speaker 1: are a key factor in shaping early development even if

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Speaker 1: your kids are a bit older. This is one of

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Speaker 1: those things that everybody has an opinion about. Can't wait

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Speaker 1: to tell you about this study. It's coming up next

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast. Gooday, this is the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast. Welcome, thanks so much for joining us. We

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Speaker 1: love having you along. My name's doctor Justin Courslam. Here

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Speaker 1: with my wife Mum do our six kids who have

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Speaker 1: made a lot of noise over the years and required

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Speaker 1: a high level of both maternal and paternal responsiveness. Six kids,

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Speaker 1: are author of ten books and the co host and

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Speaker 1: parenting expert on Channel Lines hit TV show Parental Guidance Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Today we're stepping into some research so that we can

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Speaker 1: talk about how parental or specifically maternal responsiveness impacts children's

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Speaker 1: socio emotional development, their ability to regulate their emotions. I

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Speaker 1: love it when I get to step into the science

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Speaker 1: and talk about what we're discovering with the latest research.

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Speaker 2: So I'd like to say I'm curious, but I'm not really.

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Speaker 2: You just pay me to ask the questions. What what

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Speaker 2: research have you got for us today?

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Speaker 1: Big opinions on this. I don't believe for a second

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Speaker 1: that you're not interested in this, because whenever we talk

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Speaker 1: about parents being responsive to their crying children, you have

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Speaker 1: something to say.

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Speaker 2: Oh are we talking about that today?

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Speaker 1: That's the concept. Did you not listen to the whole

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Speaker 1: intro that I did? Well, you were just dozing recording

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Speaker 1: this podcast. Gosh, okay, all right, let me step through it.

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Speaker 1: I originally found this on the British Psychological Society's website.

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Speaker 1: They have a publication called the Psychologists, and this is

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Speaker 1: what they say. If you have a baby and they

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Speaker 1: start crying, what should you do? Countless books on parenthood

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Speaker 1: offer conflicting advice, and I'm going to jump in on

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Speaker 1: what they've said here. For example, there's a very very

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Speaker 1: popular book out there called Save Our Sleep that's all

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Speaker 1: about teaching kids to regulate themselves through controlled crying, right,

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Speaker 1: which is not exactly where we tend to point ourselves here.

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Speaker 1: And then there are other books that are all about

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Speaker 1: attachment and holding that baby endlessly and then they're sleeping

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Speaker 1: co sleeping yeah. And then there's people who say, well,

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Speaker 1: hang on, surely there's a middle ground, because I can't

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Speaker 1: be continually, endlessly, never, never ceasingly attached to my child.

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Speaker 1: What the research tells us is that the way we

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Speaker 1: react to a young child's distress can affect its development.

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Speaker 1: And generally speaking, what we think happens in the data

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Speaker 1: is that children of more responsive parents generally fare better.

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Speaker 1: So the vast majority of work, according to BPS, and

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Speaker 1: according to the research, is in this paper Most of

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Speaker 1: the research here has been done in North America and Europe,

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Speaker 1: but one recent meta analysis showed that only two percent

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Speaker 1: of studies on this particular topic include samples from Africa

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Speaker 1: in South America. I mean, it's just a really have

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Speaker 1: you heard of the acronym weird? I've got a book

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Speaker 1: on my bookshelf somewhere here above us called the Weirdest

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Speaker 1: People in the World.

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Speaker 2: I have seen the book, but I haven't heard of

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Speaker 2: the acronym.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's under h under h four Heinrich. Joe Heinrich

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Speaker 1: wrote it from Harvard, and weird stands for Western educated, industrialized, rich,

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Speaker 1: and democratic. Okay, So all of the research on how

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Speaker 1: mother's responsiveness to an infant's distress come from weird nations,

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Speaker 1: Western educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic nations. Therefore, it's really

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Speaker 1: hard for us to know exactly what's going on in

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Speaker 1: other cultures and whether or not we're doing it right,

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Speaker 1: because we've been doing it the way we're doing it. Well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's been development change, but we've been doing

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Speaker 1: it the way we're doing it for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So carlo' riden at Durham University and colleagues did a

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Speaker 1: cross cultural investigation of maternal responsiveness on a total of

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Speaker 1: eighty two pairs of mothers and babies. One group was

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Speaker 1: in the UK, another group in Uganda, and it was

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Speaker 1: really interesting to me what the research showed. So basically,

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Speaker 1: you've got these UK mums. They're living in and around

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Speaker 1: the City of York, pretty standard, small nuclear households, high

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Speaker 1: levels of maternal education, reasonable socioeconomic situations. And then you've

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Speaker 1: got the Ugandan mums. They're living in subsistence farming communities,

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Speaker 1: lots of generations living together, very very low levels of

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Speaker 1: maternal education. Basically, the mum and the child are being

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Speaker 1: video in their naturalistic setting doing everyday things like bathing

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Speaker 1: and feeding and playing and resting when the kids are

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Speaker 1: three months old, and then again when they're six months old,

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Speaker 1: and then the videos are being viewed and the episodes

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Speaker 1: of the children being distressed like expressing by well, like

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Speaker 1: trying and whimpering and shrieking and doing by being fussy,

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Speaker 1: because that's all they can do at three and six

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Speaker 1: months old, they can just vocalize. That's about it. How

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Speaker 1: long did it take for mum to respond and what

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Speaker 1: kind of response did mum give, Like did she pick

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Speaker 1: the baby up, did she sing a song, did she talk?

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Speaker 1: Did she breastfeed? And then how long it took for

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Speaker 1: the baby to settle? So just those three things, how

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Speaker 1: long did it take to respond? What was the response?

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Speaker 1: And how long until the baby settled again?

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Speaker 2: So I already have so many questions, Yeah, like how

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Speaker 2: a parent responds yep to those distressful moments, Like was

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Speaker 2: the mother distressed because the child was distressed? Was the

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Speaker 2: mother suffering from postnatal depression and that impacted her capacity

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Speaker 2: to respond? Was she distracted when she is? Like? There

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Speaker 2: are so many things that would, in my mind, impact

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Speaker 2: the way the child receives it.

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Speaker 1: Was watching Netflix when the child started to cry? They've

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Speaker 1: got Yeah, So we've got limited information around this, And

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Speaker 1: one of the challenges with science is you can only

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Speaker 1: look at so many variables before everything gets so noisy

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Speaker 1: and you can't really tease things apart. So I can't

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Speaker 1: answer those questions particularly well at all. But here's what

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Speaker 1: I can tell you. I can tell you what the

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Speaker 1: analysis showed.

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Speaker 2: What did it show?

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Speaker 1: And showed that the mothers in the UK were faster

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Speaker 1: to respond to their babies distressed than the Ugana mothers.

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Speaker 2: That's curious to me.

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Speaker 1: So this is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking gentle parenting,

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Speaker 1: helicopter parenting, really responsive parenting. Mums in the UK have

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Speaker 1: been taught that when your child is distressed, you need

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Speaker 1: to go to them as fast as you can, and

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Speaker 1: that's something that I've generally advocated as well, like if

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Speaker 1: your child needs you, then give them attention, pick them up,

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Speaker 1: help them out. That seemed like a reasonable thing, and

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Speaker 1: so I wasn't. Well, I kind of was surprised because

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that homes in the UK would be

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Speaker 1: bigger and therefore it would take longer to get to

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Speaker 1: the child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking about Ugen and mums. They often will

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Speaker 2: wear their babies so they've actually got their babies on them.

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Speaker 1: So in this case, no, the UK mums got to

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Speaker 1: their baby when the baby was distressed faster. But here's

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Speaker 1: what's really interesting. The Ugandan babies, even though mum got

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Speaker 1: to them more slowly, soothed more quickly. In fact, the

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Speaker 1: British babies took longer than the Ugen babies to recover

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Speaker 1: from their distress, regardless of how fast or slow mum was.

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Speaker 1: So British mums on average are faster, although some of

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Speaker 1: them clearly took a bit longer, but regardless of how

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Speaker 1: long mum takes to get to you, the Ugandan babies

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Speaker 1: soothed faster than the British babies. Huh, fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Did they find anything else?

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Speaker 1: They're probably the main things. There's probably one other thing

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Speaker 1: to emphasize, and that was the again and mothers were

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Speaker 1: on average not only slower to respond, but more likely

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Speaker 1: than the UK mums to not actively respond to every

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Speaker 1: instance of distress. So sometimes the baby would cry a

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Speaker 1: whimper or show some sign of distress and the again

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Speaker 1: and mum would shrug their shoulders and go, oh wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to see if this turns into something or

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Speaker 1: if they're just fussing right now and they going to

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Speaker 1: sort themselves out, which I think is really really interesting,

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Speaker 1: And the researcher is hypothesize that maybe over time that

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Speaker 1: slightly delayed response or instances of not responding at all

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Speaker 1: might actually encourage the ugain and babies to develop more

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Speaker 1: effective self regulation techniques, which kind of that ties in

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Speaker 1: with the whole You can inoculate somebody by allowing them

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Speaker 1: to go through a little bit of hardship. It's like

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Speaker 1: the whole peanut thing, right, Like, give your kids a

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Speaker 1: little bit of peanut and they're less likely to develop

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Speaker 1: the peanut allergy. Keep them away from peanut, they're more

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Speaker 1: likely to develop the peanut allergy. So it might be

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Speaker 1: the same here. I will go to my child if

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Speaker 1: they're really distressed, but if they're only a little bit distressed,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to see if that's horrible for them and

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Speaker 1: go from there, like maybe they need me, maybe they don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give it some time. Anyway. I know

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Speaker 1: you've got a lot of questions. You're looking at me puzzled,

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Speaker 1: and I know you've got some opinions. I can tell

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Speaker 1: from the look on your face. So after the break,

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Speaker 1: what we do know, because this study is really limited

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, what we do know about

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Speaker 1: what kids need, and what we found is we've raised

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Speaker 1: our six kids when they've being emotionally distressed in those

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Speaker 1: first three to six months of being babes. We're back.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Kylie, you're still looking puzzled.

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Speaker 1: You've got your hands tapping your chin, your fingers are

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Speaker 1: drumming on your chin, like you need some answers. What's

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Speaker 1: going through your mind as you listen to this recap

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Speaker 1: of a really fascinating study and developmental psychology.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating is a very big word, but.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, you look interested and intrigued, and when we

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Speaker 1: talk about research sometimes you just look asleep. So I'm

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Speaker 1: taking this as a win.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about our per small experience and marrying it

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Speaker 2: up to the findings that they've found. And I think

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Speaker 2: the thing that stands out to me is that it

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Speaker 2: would seem, based on the findings of this particular study,

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Speaker 2: that being responsive is valuable to our children's well being,

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Speaker 2: but maybe being over responsive is not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 2: And as we've gone through our parenting with each of

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Speaker 2: our children.

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Speaker 1: That kind of fits with our experience, It really does.

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Speaker 2: I think the level of distress matters. You know, when

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Speaker 2: we've had older children in the house, they're so excited

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Speaker 2: and as soon as they hear the baby murmur.

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Speaker 1: The baby's the baby needs us, and you.

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Speaker 2: Know, they pounce on it. Whereas over time, what we've

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Speaker 2: learned is that sometimes our baby will make a little

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Speaker 2: cry and we'll race to them and we can't settle

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Speaker 2: them at all. And over time we kind of realized

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Speaker 2: that if we just let them make that little cry

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Speaker 2: and then give it a little bit of time. We're

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Speaker 2: slower to respond more times than not. That's actually allowed

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Speaker 2: them to self soothe and settle themselves. However, there have

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Speaker 2: been times where they've given a little cry, we haven't

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Speaker 2: been responsive and it's escalated, and at that point, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a there's a there's a turning point where we go, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is no longer going to work. They're not They're

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Speaker 2: not going to self soothe on their own. They actually

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Speaker 2: need some intervention. They need us, and we've been able

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Speaker 2: to respond in that way. And I found that as

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Speaker 2: a parent, once I got to a place where I

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Speaker 2: recognized I didn't have to respond to every noise.

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Speaker 1: It reduces your anxiety did It.

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Speaker 2: Reduced it so much? And so when I did respond,

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Speaker 2: I was already calmer because I wasn't on edge about

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Speaker 2: every noise I heard in the night. And it allowed

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Speaker 2: our baby to actually have a little cry because they've

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Speaker 2: just moved, they've got themselves unsettled, they've unwrapped themselves or something.

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Speaker 2: They've whacked themselves in the face because they're still in

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Speaker 2: that startle mode, and they've been able to put themselves

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Speaker 2: back to sleep, and it might only be half an

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Speaker 2: hour or an hour that you get extra, but they've

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Speaker 2: done it. And then when when you come to them

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Speaker 2: when they're really distressed, they know that you're there because

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Speaker 2: you've been responsive at the most important time.

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Speaker 1: And they settle into you because of that. That's right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: voice of experience, six daughters. We've been through it. Oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: we've been through it a lot so and I think

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Speaker 1: you've summarized pretty well what we discovered. It took us

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Speaker 1: a long time to figure it all out.

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Speaker 2: But I think the other thing that's really important to

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Speaker 2: understand is just emotions are catchy. Yeah, you're catchy. If

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Speaker 2: we walk into the room and where our emotions.

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Speaker 1: Are high, if we're agitated, our baby.

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Speaker 2: Catches that and you're not going to settle them no

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Speaker 2: matter how much you try. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, those ukmms, maybe they're living more stressful lives because

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Speaker 1: they are educated and they've been at work and they're

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Speaker 1: stressed out and there's so much going on and they're

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Speaker 1: worried about the bills and that sort of thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm romanticizing and getting completely wrong, but if the

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Speaker 1: subsistence farming communities in Uganda. My sense is that they

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Speaker 1: would experience less stress less anxiety, less depression. I think

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Speaker 1: that it's more just well, I don't know, maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: being far too white and colonial that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: but my sense is that it's a more relaxing way

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Speaker 1: of living, and that contagion is key.

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Speaker 2: There was a TikTok trend not so long ago where

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Speaker 2: people would hold their babies and they would kind of

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Speaker 2: slap up against the door as though the baby had

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Speaker 2: been hit, and in one instance they'd be like ah,

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Speaker 2: and they'd be all shocked and look at the baby

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Speaker 2: with fear, and the baby would burst into tears. The

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Speaker 2: baby was completely cocuoned. It didn't get touched at all

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Speaker 2: in that interaction.

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Speaker 1: Parent reaction, but their parents' response.

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Speaker 2: Yes, as opposed to parents who made the same noise

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Speaker 2: or the same action and then laughed with their baby

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Speaker 2: and the baby was oblivious. And I think that that

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Speaker 2: is it's so indicative of what happens when our emotions

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Speaker 2: are heightened. We come home after a bad day, you know,

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Speaker 2: at work, and we're stressed and stretched and just exhausted,

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Speaker 2: and our kids seem to be more raty than normal

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Speaker 2: and it actually has very little to do with them

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Speaker 2: and everything to do with what we've brought into the home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I really love that input of that feedback.

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Speaker 1: I've also noticed that because our daughter and son in

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Speaker 1: law have that kind of laughter whenever something bad happens

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Speaker 1: to their daughter, she's actually got a great sense of humor,

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Speaker 1: and she doesn't seem.

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Speaker 2: To get riper bit of a brute. She just kind

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Speaker 2: of doesn't get has juggled, yeah, self clean and then

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Speaker 2: gets on with it unless.

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Speaker 1: It's a bad one. But fortunately not too many of those,

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Speaker 1: hey we really have. It's giving you some food for

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Speaker 1: thought and highlighted just how sometimes we overcomplicate the whole

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Speaker 1: parent any thing. Hopefully the ideas that we've shared with

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Speaker 1: you can help you, or your kids, or somebody that

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Speaker 1: you know who's just got a brand new baby to

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Speaker 1: navigate those tricky times a little bit better. They HAVEY

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Mimhammond's provides research, admin and a whole lot of other

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Speaker 1: support and if you'd like more info to make your

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Speaker 1: family happier, especially with those young kids, check out my

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Speaker 1: books for Dummies. They're available online and they can give

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Speaker 1: you so much useful information for those first couple of

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Speaker 1: years of life. Those and a whole lot of other

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Speaker 1: resources are available at happy families dot com dot au