Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week.
Speaker 2: I'm right, how would I describe a television set.
Speaker 1: Oh Man from a headline grabbing point.
Speaker 3: Of view, the hack producer from me says one hundred
Speaker 3: percent put him in.
Speaker 1: Welcome back guys to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris,
Speaker 1: and on this podcast I go behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television.
Speaker 3: Yeah, great questions.
Speaker 2: The show's about the game. There's a lot of great
Speaker 2: television out there in Australia.
Speaker 1: But I've also got to go behind the scenes with writers.
Speaker 1: The truth is, when I started writing it, it wasn't
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the news and casting agents they.
Speaker 3: Know from a casting point of view what they need.
Speaker 1: And editors because that's what we do as editors where
Speaker 1: storytellers them. Not to forget some incredible executive producers who
Speaker 1: are making some of the best TV content in Australia.
Speaker 4: I have been on the program since the beginning and
Speaker 4: it's kind of in my DNA.
Speaker 1: So thanks for joining me each week and I hope
Speaker 1: the podcast continues to give you real insight into the
Speaker 1: magic of television today. On the podcast, I have Kevin Carlin,
Speaker 1: who has had an amazing career in television with directing
Speaker 1: some of Australia's most iconic scripted drama and comedy, but
Speaker 1: also recently he has just finished the last two episodes
Speaker 1: of the iconic television series Wentworth on Foxtel. Today, we'll
Speaker 1: find out how we got started in Australian television. We'll
Speaker 1: go behind the scenes for the very last time on Wentworth,
Speaker 1: which has its series finale on Tuesday at eight point
Speaker 1: thirty on Foxtel. Fans of the show will delight in
Speaker 1: all the exclusive stories with some of the actors and
Speaker 1: characters who we will bid farewell for the last time
Speaker 1: this week, including reminiscing over some of the actors and
Speaker 1: character stories like b Smith, who in my world is
Speaker 1: one of the most iconic characters in the series, played
Speaker 1: by Daniel Kormack. Kevin Carlin might not be a household
Speaker 1: name like some of the actors that he has directed,
Speaker 1: but with a resume as long as his, I guarantee
Speaker 1: you you've seen more shows that he's directed that even
Speaker 1: James Cameron and possibly Steven Spielberg think blue heelers, grasses greener,
Speaker 1: packed to the rafters, winners and losers Sea Change, But
Speaker 1: what was more exciting to me was his work back
Speaker 1: in the day on shows like Big Girls, Blouse and
Speaker 1: Fast Forward. I absolutely love Kevin's ideas on storytelling and
Speaker 1: his passion for Australian content being made in this country.
Speaker 1: And if you like a good story told, well then
Speaker 1: today you will love this chat. However, let's get started
Speaker 1: with today's episode. I'd like to welcome Kevin Carlin to
Speaker 1: this week's TV reload.
Speaker 3: It's about the gathering of shots and who's done, what
Speaker 3: we're and how it's going to come together. Were Worth
Speaker 3: the new season. We weren't slave to the idea of
Speaker 3: remaking Prisoner. If I'm such a monster, why didn't you
Speaker 3: stop me? The basis was reimagining it.
Speaker 2: This is Queen Bee kif top on now.
Speaker 3: Where she went to, what she did with that character
Speaker 3: is just historic television. Up this show, it's his baby
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. That is the joy of
Speaker 3: doing what I do is a up close front seat
Speaker 3: to these amazing actors.
Speaker 1: Hi, Kevin, how are.
Speaker 3: You very well? Thank you Ben Well.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the success of Wentworth. What an iconic show
Speaker 1: to be a part of for so long. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, had you told me at the start in twenty
Speaker 3: twelve that this is where we'd end up, I would
Speaker 3: have taken that every day of the week. It's just
Speaker 3: been an incredible.
Speaker 1: Right absolutely, I mean, and it's resonated with Australian audiences
Speaker 1: so clearly.
Speaker 3: And I don't think when we started back in twenty
Speaker 3: twelve would ever imagine that we would have captured the
Speaker 3: imagination of so many people away that we have. But
Speaker 3: here we are, now looking, here we are Episode one hundred.
Speaker 3: What a nice way to finish.
Speaker 1: How did you get started working in television.
Speaker 3: When I was a teenager? Made of mine? Well earlier
Speaker 3: he'd been left a Super eight camera and sort of
Speaker 3: grew up in a area where there was no expectations
Speaker 3: that that would necessarily follow through to any sort of career. Well,
Speaker 3: he from about nine to ten started making little films
Speaker 3: and during our teen years we made them and then
Speaker 3: we rushed down to the chemist and put the film
Speaker 3: into the chemist and get it out and have a
Speaker 3: look at it. He ended up going to work for
Speaker 3: Channel seven when he was nineteen or twenty. He sat
Speaker 3: for a video assistant sort of role. He got that.
Speaker 3: I think he was one of hundreds of applicants and
Speaker 3: I was out of work. We wanted to get one
Speaker 3: of our Super eight films out of the chemist. I
Speaker 3: had no money. I went across to see him who
Speaker 3: was working that day, and someone said, do you know
Speaker 3: anyone that wants to work? And he pointed to the moon.
Speaker 3: He said him so because I owed him money. And
Speaker 3: so I ended up pulling in sets at Channel seven
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy five, I think it was, yeah, And
Speaker 3: so look, it was just by accident that I started
Speaker 3: working there. I left, came back a few years later,
Speaker 3: and I was actually going to enroll to go to
Speaker 3: the do media studies out at Rusden, but I got
Speaker 3: a job as a stage hand atanels them at that
Speaker 3: stage and just work through the renks very quickly, so
Speaker 3: I never got to do that. Course.
Speaker 1: I like the fact that your mate wanted the cash
Speaker 1: and needed to put your work.
Speaker 3: He was sick of lending me money. Yeah, so he
Speaker 3: got me some casual labor that actually led into careers.
Speaker 3: So I'm internally thankful to Tim.
Speaker 1: Well, we might get back into your career as we
Speaker 1: go into the interview a little bit further, but can
Speaker 1: you go back and tell me how and when wentworth
Speaker 1: How this project came across your desk.
Speaker 3: I think see I was over see, I was in
Speaker 3: Malaysia and we're just holidaying and I've got a phone
Speaker 3: call from Joe Porter saying that there's a show that
Speaker 3: they've got which is the reimagining of Prisoner, and would
Speaker 3: I be interested in being the setup director? And I
Speaker 3: knew Prisoner and you just know that is an idea.
Speaker 3: Is a really strong idea because you've got the capacity
Speaker 3: to investigate so many things about life, death, survival, freedom, liberty.
Speaker 3: So the stakes are very high on the platform in
Speaker 3: that idea, there was no brain for me to say,
Speaker 3: I'd love to talk Joe when we get back. And
Speaker 3: of course the chance to work with Joe Porter, who
Speaker 3: I'd worked with before on All Saints and set up
Speaker 3: always greener with it.
Speaker 1: Put a great relationship to have. I mean, she has
Speaker 1: one of the best reputations in the business. People love
Speaker 1: to work with her, and she has worked on just
Speaker 1: as many iconic shows as as you. Pretty much.
Speaker 3: The other thing is she's a mate working with a
Speaker 3: really creative person. But also it's a great environment that
Speaker 3: you're working in.
Speaker 1: You know, that's the most common thing about the opportunity
Speaker 1: to talk to people like yourself is talking about this industry,
Speaker 1: and that is it always comes back to having a
Speaker 1: genuine friendship with your collaborators. And all these shows that
Speaker 1: are very successful, I think the root of it comes
Speaker 1: from a very strong relationship between the content creators.
Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right, Ben, because it's this massive
Speaker 3: jigsaw puzzle that you're putting together, and you know, you
Speaker 3: get one or two of the elements out of whack
Speaker 3: and it'll sink. You get a few of them that work,
Speaker 3: and I think that that's when you get your successes.
Speaker 3: And also just you're working in such a heated environment
Speaker 3: or a stressful environment a lot of the time and
Speaker 3: for long, long hours. If you're butting heads with someone
Speaker 3: or you're not seeing the world as they see it
Speaker 3: and you don't like them, you know, twelve hours a
Speaker 3: day is a long time.
Speaker 1: It's pretty painful. What was your relationship with the source material?
Speaker 1: How did you feel about Prisoner? Did you watch it?
Speaker 3: To tell you the truth, I wasn't a watcher of Prisoner,
Speaker 3: probably just when it was made and where I was
Speaker 3: at in life and time. I wasn't its target audience.
Speaker 3: So The only thing is, like most people, it was
Speaker 3: a phenomenon and I was aware of it, but I
Speaker 3: hadn't watched an episode of it. I think.
Speaker 4: Now, Francesca, I do run this prison, and nobody, especially you,
Speaker 4: challenges me and gets away with it.
Speaker 1: There's three ways that can end. Someone gets released, backs down,
Speaker 1: nds up dead.
Speaker 3: In making this, which is sort of liberating in a
Speaker 3: way that I wasn't, one of the things is we
Speaker 3: weren't slave to the idea of remaking prisoner was the
Speaker 3: basis was reimagining it and so a group of women
Speaker 3: in a modern context thrown into jail, what's it like?
Speaker 3: And that's why it was just so compelling an idea
Speaker 3: that first episode that we did, which was wanted to
Speaker 3: actually see it through the eyes of a hairdresser, which
Speaker 3: is sort of emblematic of anyone going into jail for
Speaker 3: the first time and the experience of that. One of
Speaker 3: the things is absolutely wanted to see it through Bee
Speaker 3: Smith's eyes and just oppressive with the camera and oppressive
Speaker 3: with just the environment. So the Menuchi I that stood
Speaker 3: out to her was trying to access a world that
Speaker 3: she is seeing for the first time, trying to make
Speaker 3: an audience member feel as though that they're going into
Speaker 3: prison for the first time, and so as an idea
Speaker 3: that's sort of compelling, what would happen to me? What
Speaker 3: would I do? And also the bigger things that you're
Speaker 3: left to investigate prison, the nature of power, the corrosive
Speaker 3: nature of power farm sort of I deer to it.
Speaker 3: There's also for me. It was built on a few
Speaker 3: thematic pillars, that being one of them. The other what
Speaker 3: we do to survive in a harsh environment as humans?
Speaker 3: You know, what will we do and the things that
Speaker 3: we do that force us us to survive, how it
Speaker 3: incrementally changes us over time? And that was an idea
Speaker 3: that you know, we really wanted to play with. And
Speaker 3: I thought that what happens if you do you incrementally change?
Speaker 3: And do you ever cross the rubicon and that you
Speaker 3: can never go back? Do you become a different person?
Speaker 3: And the third and probably the most fundamental pillar, thematic
Speaker 3: pillar that sort of tracked all the way through as
Speaker 3: the others do also, but was the nature of family
Speaker 3: and our ability or our want and our need to
Speaker 3: create family wherever we go. And so that is rit
Speaker 3: large in Wentworth and you know, we get to the
Speaker 3: final episode and still, you know, the family, it's all
Speaker 3: it's wacky manifestations, is still incredibly solid and the thing
Speaker 3: that drives us through to the end.
Speaker 1: I just think, has there ever been a show that
Speaker 1: has continued to be just as successful with the reshuffling
Speaker 1: of a cast. Writers were really clever about the way
Speaker 1: in which characters came and went, And I think it
Speaker 1: comes down to something you just explained. These characters were
Speaker 1: intertwined in a way that it was forever evolving, like
Speaker 1: we all are with our need and desire to be
Speaker 1: a part of family.
Speaker 3: I think you spot on there, and I think that
Speaker 3: what you've also said there in relation to the writing
Speaker 3: department in a massy gardner who's a script producer. But
Speaker 3: John Ridley and people tyed just what they brought to
Speaker 3: the table all the time, the way that they were
Speaker 3: able to regenerate the show. As you say, you know,
Speaker 3: it's losing key characters, you know, I know when it
Speaker 3: was decided that we exhausted all the avenues that the
Speaker 3: Smith could go down and she'd reached she'd dust, don't
Speaker 3: it all? You know Daniel cormack Man just where she
Speaker 3: went to what she did with that character is just
Speaker 3: historic television. Getting back to your point about the writers
Speaker 3: and being able to regenerate story with new characters and
Speaker 3: people still tuning in. I think one of the gifts
Speaker 3: that the writers have actually given the show is the
Speaker 3: quality of writing. I thought you can always judge a
Speaker 3: show by the quality of actors that attracts. And you
Speaker 3: just look at the list of people who have been
Speaker 3: through Wentworth and it's the who's who were acting in Australia.
Speaker 1: Well, Sigrid Thornton.
Speaker 3: You know when you see sitting at one table, Pamela
Speaker 3: Rade as he brought a leopurcell, Katrina Molosovich, k to Atkinson,
Speaker 3: you know secret you just you go man, and you know.
Speaker 3: In the early days, that first cast that we had,
Speaker 3: I think that that was one of the main reasons
Speaker 3: for the success of the show was the casting of
Speaker 3: that first episode, and it was terrific that they weren't
Speaker 3: necessarily Foxtel or Free Mental, weren't after names, are after
Speaker 3: great character act That's what we landed. And I think
Speaker 3: it was the force of that cast that allowed us
Speaker 3: to go where we went.
Speaker 1: And it's there for us as an audience. You know,
Speaker 1: it's oh so digestive. It's so addictive. I mean, I
Speaker 1: remember introducing the series to my mother in law and
Speaker 1: we still to this day, we still go as she's
Speaker 1: in Bendigot We go to Bendigo and she says, have
Speaker 1: you brought the Wentworth?
Speaker 3: So the violence and the sex and didn't freak her out.
Speaker 1: Not at all. My mum wouldn't have watched a single moment.
Speaker 3: That's funny talking about Danielle and talking about one of
Speaker 3: those themes that I was touched on before, which was
Speaker 3: what we do to survive and the things that we
Speaker 3: do is it irrevocably changes. And I don't know whether
Speaker 3: you saw season two where she shot Brayden, which I
Speaker 3: remember going across to her place over two days of
Speaker 3: a weekend. We must have spent twelve hours just workshopping
Speaker 3: that six minute scene. It wasn't about the nuts and bolts.
Speaker 3: It was about the psychology of what she was doing.
Speaker 3: And in that moment, could the hairdresser that went into
Speaker 3: jail pull that trigger and blow Jaden away? And if
Speaker 3: she could, who did she become in that moment? And
Speaker 3: that forever changed the character of v Smith in Wentworth.
Speaker 1: She pulled that trigger just there's so many moments. I
Speaker 1: think for her, what was your fondest memory from working
Speaker 1: on the very first series of the show.
Speaker 3: There's a couple of things that stand out. One is there,
Speaker 3: and it's because it's captured a photograph of kad Atkinson
Speaker 3: and myself standing there holding the first slate, and to
Speaker 3: now look back on that, we never imagined where we're
Speaker 3: going to go. I think what's interesting about this is
Speaker 3: that you know, Moser character is a female, and we get.
Speaker 5: To do a lot of stuff that would be traditionally
Speaker 5: a male role.
Speaker 1: So it's really exciting to be able to do that,
Speaker 1: and to have a whole group of women of all
Speaker 1: ages and sizes and ethnicity together that have such.
Speaker 3: Great stories to tell. It's interesting. I remember I hadn't
Speaker 3: worked with Susie Porter before and she came into my
Speaker 3: office and with just to speak a little bit about
Speaker 3: you know, basically was a meeting et and talk, and
Speaker 3: I just said to her, we haven't worked together before,
Speaker 3: what do you like from a director? And she said,
Speaker 3: I've never been asked that question before. But I suppose
Speaker 3: I don't need to be loaded up with backstory. I
Speaker 3: don't need to know that I was traumatized as a kid.
Speaker 3: What I want is basically too much, too little, too Hollywood,
Speaker 3: and what the essence of the scene is about. And
Speaker 3: I think each actor works in a different way and
Speaker 3: process is in a different way, and it's just the
Speaker 3: ability to tap into that and you provide the support
Speaker 3: for them. It's nothing special, it's just common sense.
Speaker 1: Well, without giving anything away, I just watched the second
Speaker 1: last episode last night, and Susie was so amazing in
Speaker 1: this episode. I just am in awe of that ability
Speaker 1: to tap into a character like that. I've met Susie before,
Speaker 1: She's not that character at all, but just an amazing
Speaker 1: And you've got to direct that second last episode.
Speaker 3: That is the joy ben of doing what I do
Speaker 3: is that up close front seat to these amazing actors
Speaker 3: that do things wildly beyond your expectations. And Susie's one
Speaker 3: of those actors that does it. And the extraordinary thing
Speaker 3: it's seemingly effortless with her craft and ability that the
Speaker 3: way that she actually gets to where she needs to go,
Speaker 3: it's it's quite incredible. You know.
Speaker 1: The series change from using a very significant color grade
Speaker 1: of teal, almost a very gritty green that was there
Speaker 1: for the first few seasons. What was the decision or
Speaker 1: why why did you choose to lose that?
Speaker 3: Look, it was about just refreshing. There wasn't because the
Speaker 3: show was, you know, changing, and you know, principal characters
Speaker 3: were changing, just to just psychologically inform the audience that
Speaker 3: we've taken in a slightly different direction so that they're
Speaker 3: not necessarily looking at the same show that as they
Speaker 3: were in the past. But it's it's nothing more than that.
Speaker 1: Right, And then the series nearly wrapped up a few
Speaker 1: seasons back. Do you think that the series finale that
Speaker 1: may have been might have looked very different if that
Speaker 1: had been in fact the series finale? I mean I
Speaker 1: wondered whether or not you added Joan Ferguson's reveal later
Speaker 1: down post production once the show had been greenlit again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it would have been a totally totally different
Speaker 3: ending had we finished it when it was first anticipated
Speaker 3: that it would. And yet there was always discussion about
Speaker 3: where Joan Ferguson sat in that landscape.
Speaker 1: Can you remember anything that we didn't get to see
Speaker 1: that may have happened in that finale?
Speaker 3: One of the things was is they'll still be smarting
Speaker 3: over this? We had a couple of the prisoner women,
Speaker 3: the old prisoner women, waving goodbye from the yard to
Speaker 3: Ruby as she walked down, which we actually filmed three
Speaker 3: characters from the original Prisoner we put it in prison Wow,
Speaker 3: and they waved goodbye to Ruby walking down the cage
Speaker 3: corridor to freedom.
Speaker 1: You're right, Okay, I guess this is going to be
Speaker 1: a really difficult question for you, But do you have
Speaker 1: a favorite character looking back at the series retrospectively? Now?
Speaker 3: You know, obviously, you know from the very start what
Speaker 3: Daniel Kormack did was amazing. And I'm sure Nicole won't
Speaker 3: mind me saying this. Nicole and I in that first
Speaker 3: episode we didn't hit it off. We've butted heads a
Speaker 3: couple of times. And when I was about to do
Speaker 3: episode nine and ten of that, Nicole came to me.
Speaker 3: She said she was the adult in this. She said,
Speaker 3: we didn't get along too well in that first one.
Speaker 3: Did we we get along fine outside of work? And
Speaker 3: I said, no, you're absolutely right, and she said we
Speaker 3: both agreed, let's put it behind us and start again.
Speaker 3: I misread it. And the thing is, I was the
Speaker 3: one that was at faulton sort of put up a
Speaker 3: Wall just said basically, I remember the day that can
Speaker 3: you just do it? That was the note because we're
Speaker 3: having discussion about it, and she just did it, and
Speaker 3: there was tension between us, but not overt but she
Speaker 3: was the adult in the room that came back to
Speaker 3: me and just said that didn't go too well, did it.
Speaker 3: I said, no.
Speaker 4: My name's Kate Atkinson and I play Deputy Governor via
Speaker 4: ben it Vera in all seriousness, is a woman who
Speaker 4: has always felt alone.
Speaker 3: Kate Atkinson. I remember saying to her after the first
Speaker 3: episode that just I could run a camera on her
Speaker 3: face and she could give me tell me what the
Speaker 3: scene was about without saying a word.
Speaker 1: I can honestly say she would have to be Australia's
Speaker 1: most iconic and most brilliant character actors of all time.
Speaker 1: And the nuances that Kate has on her face are
Speaker 1: just unbelievable.
Speaker 3: You know, every moment of every scene she's invested in
Speaker 3: and she gives you a read on what it is.
Speaker 1: But her Facebook is all differently as well, Like you
Speaker 1: could see that she I don't know how she'll do it,
Speaker 1: but like you know, sometimes just the flickering lip, yeah,
Speaker 1: just the lip or even the wins, just anything. The
Speaker 1: nuances to that she manages to articulate by just doing
Speaker 1: very small and very subtle things, allows you as an
Speaker 1: audience to feel exactly what that character is going through.
Speaker 3: She will interrogate every moment of every scene too, so
Speaker 3: that's not so well.
Speaker 1: I'd spoken to Katrina on TV Reload a few weeks back,
Speaker 1: and she mentioned that you reached out to her in
Speaker 1: the very early days about the possibility of being in
Speaker 1: the show before casting it even happened. Did you ever
Speaker 1: imagine that Boomer would go on to become one of
Speaker 1: the most loved legacy characters of the series.
Speaker 3: Well, yes, I did imagine that. It doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3: Cat and I go back and I just I love
Speaker 3: her work and I love what she brings. The thing
Speaker 3: is to bring so much humanity into an environment that
Speaker 3: lacks so much humanity was one of the conduits that
Speaker 3: her character was able to achieve. But the thing is, yes,
Speaker 3: I did say to her, there's this small part, I
Speaker 3: would love you to audition for it. Because she wasn't
Speaker 3: part of the main cast in that first series. She
Speaker 3: was regarded as guest cast who were not guest casting.
Speaker 3: But she became main cast in the second series, which
Speaker 3: didn't surprise me at all because, as I say that,
Speaker 3: she's such a fine actress. Also, she's incredibly brave with
Speaker 3: her emotions and she you know, she puts it all
Speaker 3: out there. She certainly does well she does, and often
Speaker 3: she'll see me walking towards her and she'll say, let's
Speaker 3: less less scratching.
Speaker 1: I was talking to her about things that she added
Speaker 1: to the character and what the writers added to the character,
Speaker 1: and she was like, you know, Brendan Favola they added,
Speaker 1: and the biscuits Monte Carlo's. But she was like, but
Speaker 1: the scratching I put in, you know, the constant fidgeting
Speaker 1: and readjusting herself. You know, she said, I put that in.
Speaker 3: But she has fashioned just an iconic character that will
Speaker 3: stand the test of time and televisual history. Well.
Speaker 1: I spoke with some of the other actresses who said
Speaker 1: that you were brilliant at being able to conjure performances
Speaker 1: out of them, that you knew how to set the
Speaker 1: scene and really allow them to immerse themselves in the moment.
Speaker 1: How would you do that?
Speaker 3: I think I start off from the point of not
Speaker 3: being too prescriptive about what you want from the performance,
Speaker 3: because what you'll do is sometimes negate the goal that
Speaker 3: they intuitively are going to bring to that moment. So
Speaker 3: having a talk about what the essence of the scene is,
Speaker 3: about what you're hoping to get out of it, and
Speaker 3: then when you past well, they just go and do it.
Speaker 3: And then you can just usually just let the first
Speaker 3: take be what they've brought to it, and then the
Speaker 3: second take or the third take you'll just shape it.
Speaker 3: But if it's totally off the mark, you'll have another
Speaker 3: discussion about it. And as I said, going back to
Speaker 3: Sussie Porter, just finding out what an actor wants from
Speaker 3: a director I think is important because they all work
Speaker 3: a little bit differently, and there's some people you know
Speaker 3: that if you too many load up with too many notes,
Speaker 3: that they'll hit those notes and sacrifice the rest of
Speaker 3: a performance.
Speaker 1: Well, the final series is probably the most gruesome, which
Speaker 1: is hard to believe for people who've watched it from
Speaker 1: the start. Did you guys get a green light to
Speaker 1: turn it up?
Speaker 3: And I don't know whether anyone actually requested a green
Speaker 3: The writer the subverses bunch right, it's more violent than
Speaker 3: the others.
Speaker 1: It's so much more violent and like the second episode
Speaker 1: where at the end of that series we saw Kate
Speaker 1: Box kill.
Speaker 3: Martin dussel dous character Sheila.
Speaker 1: Sheila, Yes, oh my gosh. You know, I can only
Speaker 1: ever in my home remember getting up and walking out
Speaker 1: of a room ever happening to me once and it
Speaker 1: was that scene. And I've watched all kinds of horror gruesomeness,
Speaker 1: and I remember standing in the hallway looking throughout my
Speaker 1: partner who's still watching the screen, and I said, is
Speaker 1: it over?
Speaker 3: And he went, no, Yeah, the thing is. I look
Speaker 3: back and I just think, you know, the gruesome stabbing
Speaker 3: of Sonya in the in the shower, the stabbing of
Speaker 3: Jenko Ali in the sh out don't go for a shower?
Speaker 3: Is no soaring off hands, fingers hands.
Speaker 1: Put the hands in the press, be like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say.
Speaker 3: So many Ali plying off a finger.
Speaker 1: What about kas Proctor? Kas Proctor was the one I
Speaker 1: didn't even see it coming, and you it had been
Speaker 1: set up so beautifully, like you could hear the music.
Speaker 1: There was such an iconic change. You just had this
Speaker 1: counseling session with the psychologist. I should have been smarter,
Speaker 1: I should have known it was going to happen, but
Speaker 1: I didn't, and it just so gruesome.
Speaker 3: No, that was hard to watch. That was funny. Sometimes
Speaker 3: you forget what you've done because it's so mathematical equation
Speaker 3: shooting action. It's about the gathering of shots and who's done,
Speaker 3: what we're and how it's going to come together. But
Speaker 3: when you see it back, it sometimes terrifies me.
Speaker 1: I'm going, well, I'm glad to hear that, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think if we heard that you were like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's amazing, Oh, it'd be like, yes.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I think I might fall into that case
Speaker 3: spot from time to time. But you know, the person
Speaker 3: that we didn't speak about before too is a Pamela Raye.
Speaker 3: Just to have a front seat to her performances is
Speaker 3: quite extraordinary. She's a beautiful person and also a beautiful
Speaker 3: person to direct. She's so collaborative, right and you know
Speaker 3: then so open to talk and feedback and notes and
Speaker 3: just but also once again, just such a forensic mind.
Speaker 3: The way that she's pulled apart a script and then
Speaker 3: reconstructed it, it's quite extraordinary.
Speaker 1: Why do you think we were so scared of the freak?
Speaker 1: You know, like I know that Pamela did a brilliant job,
Speaker 1: but why was that character so terrifying?
Speaker 3: What's interesting, you know, you give the situations and the
Speaker 3: things that she was actually capable of, that the way
Speaker 3: that Ferguson did it with the so emotionless, you know,
Speaker 3: the emotions of a psychopath, which was so disengaged. I
Speaker 3: think that that has something to do with someone that
Speaker 3: can commit these horrendous acts without any great investment except
Speaker 3: the fact that they've achieved what they set out to do.
Speaker 1: It's such a loved character as well. What is wrong
Speaker 1: with us in society? I think, you know, we've really
Speaker 1: decided to love the villains as time has gone on.
Speaker 1: I guess we've always had your Hannibal Lecter's and your
Speaker 1: Darth Vaders, and you know, the likable villain. But Joan Ferguson,
Speaker 1: people love that character and she's positively evil psychopathic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of those characters that people love to hate,
Speaker 3: isn't it. I know that I had this very very cut,
Speaker 3: muscled up cartoner working at my place and he was
Speaker 3: a bloke, a real bloke, but he saw a photo
Speaker 3: of Wentworth on the study wall and he goes he
Speaker 3: pointed to Ferguson, he said, she scares the shit out
Speaker 3: of me.
Speaker 1: At that point, do you say I'm responsible for that
Speaker 1: TV show?
Speaker 3: She scares the shit out of me too.
Speaker 1: That's the correct human response, Kevin. You know, the show
Speaker 1: never lost the talent factor, always bringing in more actors
Speaker 1: who gave career best I'm going to say career best performances.
Speaker 1: Were you shocked to see Jane Hall play the role
Speaker 1: of Anne so well?
Speaker 3: No, I wasn't shocked. I have to say I didn't
Speaker 3: know what to expect because I hadn't worked with Jane.
Speaker 3: I don't think ever. We'd maybe cross paths once or twice,
Speaker 3: and I wasn't overly familiar with her work. But boy
Speaker 3: did she deliver. So really really happy with where I
Speaker 3: got to. But I wasn't shocked because I had I
Speaker 3: didn't really know. But the thing is, isn't it fantastic
Speaker 3: that there is a vehicle out there for great actors
Speaker 3: like Jane to actually show what she's capable of. And
Speaker 3: that's what Wentworth was was this show that actually had
Speaker 3: these fantastic dynamic parts for women, and just they kept
Speaker 3: on coming, and so we kept on needing great actors
Speaker 3: to come in and do those roles, and for Jane
Speaker 3: to come in and not to fire expectations because the
Speaker 3: expectations were there, but to have that platform to show
Speaker 3: us what she could do. It's fantastic.
Speaker 5: I've just come from a meeting with the Minister. This
Speaker 5: Slammer dot com fiasco is causing a shit storm. I've
Speaker 5: decided to offer a bonus month's wages to whichever officer
Speaker 5: finds that came up.
Speaker 3: One of the things that they wanted from a very start,
Speaker 3: Penny and Joe were very big on this was diversity.
Speaker 3: This is going back twenty twelve. They wanted diversity in cast.
Speaker 3: They weren't necessarily after names, even though that big names
Speaker 3: did come onto the show. Now, that wasn't the major
Speaker 3: driving force or idea behind It was about to get
Speaker 3: diversity and great characters in there. Well.
Speaker 1: Fox tells a really good part of our landscape of
Speaker 1: Australian television, and there is a real respect and an
Speaker 1: old school mentality which I think comes from Brian in
Speaker 1: the sense that it's worth taking the time to actually
Speaker 1: do the work. At the start and even talking about
Speaker 1: the Real Housewives, they were given the luxury of seven
Speaker 1: months to cast those women on that show. I mean,
Speaker 1: it has a lot to do with the crews that
Speaker 1: put them together. But if you don't get the mix
Speaker 1: of talent right and the mix of characters right, you know,
Speaker 1: shows don't lift. And Foxtel somehow has understood that and
Speaker 1: respected it, and I think that's why the trade off
Speaker 1: and the payoff for some of these shows is so good.
Speaker 3: Well, the thing is companies like foxtell that are actually
Speaker 3: going to produce and particularly from my point of view,
Speaker 3: to invest in drama the way they have, and I
Speaker 3: hope they continue to do so because one of the
Speaker 3: things that they've been able to do is make dramas
Speaker 3: that aren't slave to the normal commercial realities.
Speaker 1: Scripted drama is very important in Australia in general, and
Speaker 1: scripted drama is actually my favorite part of storytelling that
Speaker 1: we have in this country, and it always has been.
Speaker 1: It's very strange. I remember at times it's been not
Speaker 1: popular to like Australia content, you know, Australian films, I
Speaker 1: don't want to watch that or whatever. I was enamored
Speaker 1: with Australian story and the way in which we told
Speaker 1: it right from an early age. I love our storytelling
Speaker 1: I love our unique ability to do so. But I
Speaker 1: also love Foxtel and the streaming services now that are
Speaker 1: now expanding different ways for us to get commission stories
Speaker 1: like this, and I hope and I said to Brian
Speaker 1: as well, please tell me with Wentworth finishing that you've
Speaker 1: recommissioned all of those amazing writers and directors, content creators
Speaker 1: and put them into another show.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't agree more with what you had to
Speaker 3: say in relation to Australian drama. We need more of it.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And we're only getting to the point
Speaker 1: now with all of these streaming services where we're stepping
Speaker 1: outside of the colloquial ability to tell Australian story that
Speaker 1: we can tell stories very well without it having to
Speaker 1: be about Australia. And I think for a while we
Speaker 1: dipped into a very dark period where it's like we
Speaker 1: can only tell stories about you know, drugs and gangsters.
Speaker 1: Where I think we're now coming out of that a
Speaker 1: little bit and we're able to tell stories about the
Speaker 1: everyday Australian certainly.
Speaker 3: And I think thirdly, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: That's why there's streaming platforms and things like Foxtel are
Speaker 1: just so important.
Speaker 3: Put the streaming platforms and be good with the internationals
Speaker 3: to have the same rules regulations that apply overseas, particularly
Speaker 3: in countries like France where a certain percentage of budgets
Speaker 3: have to be put aside for local production. And I
Speaker 3: know that we're on the way to doing that here,
Speaker 3: but it'll be good to see that eventuate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think the government does need to get
Speaker 1: onto that. I mean, it's such a hard thing at
Speaker 1: the moment getting you know, everything, getting the economy back
Speaker 1: on the road after something like COVID. But the arts
Speaker 1: is so important that we should protect because it is
Speaker 1: so imperative to our own mental health to be able
Speaker 1: to have this kind of escapism. But it's also very
Speaker 1: imperative to our own mental health to be able to
Speaker 1: see ourselves on screen in show.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, very few other countries in the world would not
Speaker 3: understand the importance of seeing our own restoring our own
Speaker 3: stories reflected back to us.
Speaker 1: I think it's so important. I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: whether or not there are any strange similarities between directing
Speaker 1: thriller and comedy.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you know, just thinking about it, is that
Speaker 3: what I learned from comedy was such that's such a
Speaker 3: great advantage when I come to directing drama because I
Speaker 3: learned quite a bit off Ted Emery, who was the
Speaker 3: initial he started up Fast Forward. Yeah, and I was
Speaker 3: the associate director on that with him. But about the
Speaker 3: clarity of the idea, the essence of the idea, and
Speaker 3: being able to strip back a joke to its essence,
Speaker 3: what is it, unclutter it, then launch it, conceal it,
Speaker 3: then reveal it. And that is drama. You know, you
Speaker 3: conceal and reveal and you try not to telegraph where
Speaker 3: you're going, but first of all, to know where you're going,
Speaker 3: you need to know the essence of what it is
Speaker 3: that you're prosecuting. Absolutely, so comedy is a great teacher.
Speaker 1: Well, we can't really make shows like Big Girls, Blouse
Speaker 1: and Fast Forward as much as we used to with
Speaker 1: you know, councel culture and all of this. Do you
Speaker 1: think it's become harder to make comedies in twenty twenty one?
Speaker 3: It probably is, just due to what you were saying
Speaker 3: about cancer culture and being unable to go to certain places.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that that necessarily precludes great sketch
Speaker 3: comedy is still being made. Maybe you know the format
Speaker 3: of sketch comedy is moved on and it might look
Speaker 3: pass but every now and then, and I'm just trying
Speaker 3: to think of examples that you just see someone that
Speaker 3: just smashes about the ballpark with a breath of fresh
Speaker 3: air and sketch comedy.
Speaker 1: I love all of the sketch comedy that you've worked on.
Speaker 1: Your back catalog of sketch comedy is next level. It
Speaker 1: is all my favorite things to watch. The other thing
Speaker 1: I was going to say to you is one of
Speaker 1: my best friends and I we quote the lines from
Speaker 1: Big Girls Blouse, probably more so than any other TV
Speaker 1: show whenever we see each other. And so it was
Speaker 1: actually really funny and I said out loud to my partner,
Speaker 1: sweet sweet, gary Sweet when gary sweet turned up sweet.
Speaker 3: Well, that scene that brings back flooding memories about we
Speaker 3: were in this building in the city where we had
Speaker 3: four days to shoot all the stuff that was going
Speaker 3: to be done in the magazine office the series. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the first day was bumping in and we needed to
Speaker 3: leave half a day to bump out, such was the
Speaker 3: budget up During that scene, I think Magda is renowned
Speaker 3: for a corpsey that she gets the giggles and can't stop.
Speaker 3: And it was during that scene that it hit and
Speaker 3: we had to be we had to vacate, get out
Speaker 3: of there. We had a deadline, and we were hitting
Speaker 3: that deadline. She couldn't get through the scene without laughing,
Speaker 3: and she blamed it on Gina and Jane. She said
Speaker 3: they were making her laugh. So we end up putting
Speaker 3: a petition between them and they would deliver their lines.
Speaker 3: And she got halfway through and once again started giggling,
Speaker 3: and I just I was about to do my block,
Speaker 3: except I was giggling too, because it's infectious. And I said, Magda,
Speaker 3: we've got to get out of her, and she said,
Speaker 3: don't get mad at me, and then so we started
Speaker 3: again and it happened again, and then she said, it's
Speaker 3: then behind the behind the petition, they're giggling, and we
Speaker 3: pulled the petitioning. Isn't that a weirdly infectious thing when
Speaker 3: someone's got the giggles? Yep, no matter what, you can't.
Speaker 1: But you pair that with being told not to giggle,
Speaker 1: and I guarantee you that's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 3: Well, and then I'm trying to call and action.
Speaker 1: Well, it's just so amazing, you know what would you
Speaker 1: say though, has changed the most in making TV these
Speaker 1: days compared to when you started and were making shows
Speaker 1: like Big Girls Blouse.
Speaker 3: One of the major things is the way you actually
Speaker 3: use locations and just you know, there's in and it's
Speaker 3: about safety a lot of it, which is great, you know,
Speaker 3: just you think the things that you did, Like I
Speaker 3: would to record a scene in a car, what you
Speaker 3: would do is you would put the actors in the
Speaker 3: front of the car, the camera whether it's a side
Speaker 3: mound or a cameraman in the backseat, and the director
Speaker 3: and the sound that record us would lie in the
Speaker 3: boot of the car with earphones and you would drive
Speaker 3: around town. And we did this with Big Girl's Flowers.
Speaker 3: I remember I would be locked in the boot of
Speaker 3: the car driving down Dandy Nongrad and we didn't have
Speaker 3: trail there. Actually, looking back, it was probably illegal then.
Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't have to receipt belt back in
Speaker 1: those days. I'm pretty sure, but I still don't think
Speaker 1: you're allowed to be in the boot of a car driving.
Speaker 3: But that was the same day, is that we were
Speaker 3: filming in Chapel Street a scene and it was in
Speaker 3: a shop I remember. But anyway, what I did. I
Speaker 3: saw a tram coming, and I got magged to get
Speaker 3: out and get a shoe caught in the tram track
Speaker 3: and just run up the tram track. Do you remember
Speaker 3: that shot? Yeah, that was just made up on the
Speaker 3: he comes a tramp, just walk across the road and
Speaker 3: get your heel caught in that. And then the tram
Speaker 3: started dinging its bell and cheek. So that was totally unscripted, unplanned,
Speaker 3: and just happened.
Speaker 1: So icon of I mean, I always think of the
Speaker 1: ladies at lunch. They're always a good one. But I
Speaker 1: loved the Michael Douglas thing. And I'm pretty sure Michael dougl.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, madam, have you ever felt the edge to
Speaker 2: stalk and ravager? Man, here's Michael Douglass, Cherry Stone.
Speaker 3: Who would you most like to stalk and ravage.
Speaker 1: Everyone?
Speaker 3: This? My wife still does that, Michael Douglas amazing.
Speaker 1: Well that that's good to know. That's probably why you're
Speaker 1: still loving life. But I just think it's so that
Speaker 1: those moments, but also the performances of Jane Turner and
Speaker 1: everybody as they convincingly turned to the camera and said
Speaker 1: the reasons why they loved Michael Douglas just so well executed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it looks such gifted performers. Once again, this
Speaker 3: is what I feel. You know, I've been treated to upfront,
Speaker 3: front row seats to these amazing performers who and you know,
Speaker 3: the three of them are so vastly different to like,
Speaker 3: Magda has got a brain like a small planet in
Speaker 3: the million ideas, Gina just knows comedy backwards and just
Speaker 3: livers and Jane she so quirky, and the three of
Speaker 3: them bring it to be just an extraordinary combination.
Speaker 1: Well, you've worked on some pretty iconic shows and some
Speaker 1: of them are even resurfacing. You know, you've got packed
Speaker 1: to the rafters. Now is back to the rafters? I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've watched the new series. That's no,
Speaker 1: I haven't debut.
Speaker 3: I have.
Speaker 1: I watched it all, and I was going to ask
Speaker 1: you what did you think of Julie and Dave Rafter
Speaker 1: having marital problems at this point? Because I could imagine
Speaker 1: you would feel connected to a lot of these iconic characters.
Speaker 1: Are they having marital problems they're separated?
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, don't tell me that. No, Kevin, it's terrible,
Speaker 3: cannot be that cannot be those gorgeous people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, bevern Lee when he came back and said, you
Speaker 1: know we're going to do this story, you know, he said,
Speaker 1: what are we going to do to make this story
Speaker 1: relevant today? And yeah, Dave's living somewhere high up in
Speaker 1: the New South Wales and she's living in Sydney. They're
Speaker 1: not even living together, and it's and it's looking pretty grim.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, that can't lasts. That's so sad. They're
Speaker 3: so good together. We need to do something about this. Man.
Speaker 3: We need some sort of online petition.
Speaker 1: We'll have to bring a different network. It's Amazon Prime
Speaker 1: Video that we need to get in contact with and say,
Speaker 1: how have you allowed this?
Speaker 3: This? It's wrong?
Speaker 1: Are there any other shows that you've ever been asked
Speaker 1: to come back and work on that have you know
Speaker 1: that they're thinking about rebooting or that you've turned down?
Speaker 3: No? No, I can't think of any that there. I
Speaker 3: do remember, not that I was asked for, but I
Speaker 3: were playing with this idea many many years ago, buying
Speaker 3: all the old homicide scripts. Right this is in the
Speaker 3: early two thousand's one channel we're thinking about buying all
Speaker 3: the old homicide scripts and redoing them that's not a
Speaker 3: good idea.
Speaker 1: I'd probably watch it, but many wouldn't. Well, I'm going
Speaker 1: to just we'll get to the end of this and
Speaker 1: I guess there's no other way to finish this chat
Speaker 1: considering that Wentworth finale is just about to happen in
Speaker 1: a couple of days. For people listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: have any advice you know, for the viewers and for
Speaker 1: those diehard fans leading up to watching that final episode.
Speaker 3: Just have a blanket because you might have to pull
Speaker 3: it over your head from time to time. Make sure
Speaker 3: you've got an edge of the seat to sit on
Speaker 3: because you will be on the edge of the sleep
Speaker 3: for most of the most of the EPI sets, and
Speaker 3: also bring a hanky. If you're an avid fan, there'll
Speaker 3: be tears, maybe of joy, maybe not. Have a look.
Speaker 1: You'll find out well, just like the rest of Australia,
Speaker 1: I've still got one episode left to watch and the
Speaker 1: only question I have for you is will we see
Speaker 1: anyone reprising their role in the finale? Could we possibly
Speaker 1: see two of my favorites is Frankie and Maxine? Are
Speaker 1: there any chances that we will get to see a
Speaker 1: glimpse of some iconic characters.
Speaker 3: Yes and no. It depends and I'll explain off I'll
Speaker 3: fear what that means.
Speaker 1: Yes and no meaning I can't answer that question. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much for playing.
Speaker 3: But no, no, no, no, no that you asked that question.
Speaker 3: Don't mean to be circurit us when I say yes
Speaker 3: and no. But it does come back on itself that
Speaker 3: do you see these people? Well, yes and no. I
Speaker 3: love it.
Speaker 1: My last question I always asked my guests before they go,
Speaker 1: is what is an amazing story from behind the scenes
Speaker 1: that where's an audience might appreciate.
Speaker 3: A memory that stands out is that I had this
Speaker 3: thing rigged up called a duney can, which was to
Speaker 3: capture Frankie vomiting into the toilet. So it's rigged below
Speaker 3: the toilet's see and Boomer Captain Melossovitch was sitting in
Speaker 3: one of the cubicles, and the scene was Frankie races
Speaker 3: in and throws be his head down the toilet and
Speaker 3: gets to vomit into the toilet. Boomer, who was sitting
Speaker 3: there on the duney Captain Losovitch just looked at me
Speaker 3: very nervously, very nervously, and said, what's that camera for?
Speaker 3: But I might answer that question again. I don't know
Speaker 3: whether you can use that.
Speaker 1: No, I can use that. I just think it's it's
Speaker 1: very It leads us to understand the trust that you have.
Speaker 1: And I've spoken to so many women who've worked on
Speaker 1: this show, from producers to writers to the actors, and
Speaker 1: everyone talks of you so fondly and has a great
Speaker 1: relationship with you. And I think that that is about trust.
Speaker 1: So I think for Kat, she really has to trust
Speaker 1: you for you to put a camera like that on
Speaker 1: a toilet.
Speaker 3: Get anywhere near a curb bottom, which.
Speaker 1: I think is pretty damn amazing. Well, I just want
Speaker 1: to say thank you so much for being able to
Speaker 1: join us today and to unpack Wentworth. What a phenomenal ride,
Speaker 1: what a phenomenal show, and also what a fantastic job
Speaker 1: that you've been able to have working on this And
Speaker 1: I think you've really left your mark. So you must
Speaker 1: be very proud.
Speaker 3: Oh look, thank you for those words, Ben, and I
Speaker 3: am very proud of what we've managed to achieve. As
Speaker 3: I said before, you know, it's a big bloody jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker 3: Unless you have all the pieces, you won't make a
Speaker 3: good picture.