1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast. Thanks so much for

2
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,479
Speaker 1: joining us today. A mother of four boys, Claire wrote

3
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,520
Speaker 1: in gave us a very, very long email. I'm going

4
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,440
Speaker 1: to summarize it just here, asking about one of our

5
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,759
Speaker 1: most provocative topics recently, the idea that boys need to

6
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,160
Speaker 1: bring surplus value to become healthy men. In my new

7
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: book due out next year, Boys, I talk about how

8
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,520
Speaker 1: healthy masculinity means helping the people around you to feel

9
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,880
Speaker 1: safer and stronger. Richard Reeves and his Book of Boys

10
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 1: and Men calls it surplus value.

11
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:39,559
Speaker 2: So Claire is.

12
00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,600
Speaker 1: Raising her sons to be honest and kind and brave,

13
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 1: but she's worried that we're telling them that they're not

14
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,559
Speaker 1: enough as they are. She says, and here's the quote.

15
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,239
Speaker 1: If I was told as a young girl that I

16
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,840
Speaker 1: needed to bring surplus value, my confidence and self worth

17
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 1: would have been pretty shaken. So I think that's a

18
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: fair enough statement, and it cuts to the heart of

19
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: how we develop healthy mass identity in a world where

20
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:08,759
Speaker 1: boys are increasingly told they're either toxic or irrelevant. Today,

21
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 1: we're diving deep into what surplus value actually means. Why

22
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 1: Scholars like Richard Reeves and the very outspoken Scott Galloway

23
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,840
Speaker 1: believe that it's crucial for boys and how it's not

24
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,839
Speaker 1: actually about worth, it's about something more fundamental.

25
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,040
Speaker 2: Stay with us.

26
00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,199
Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for joining us on the Happy Families podcast,

27
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,920
Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parent in podcast. We are Justin and

28
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 1: Kylie Coulson, parents of six kids, and today an email

29
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,200
Speaker 1: about this idea of giving more than you take as

30
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 1: a marker of masculinity. Kylie Cleare sent this email through

31
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 1: perfectly captures the tension that a lot of parents are

32
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 1: feeling today. She's doing everything right raising a boys they're

33
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 1: age ten to seventeen, to be honest and kind, and

34
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 1: she's married to a man who is embodying, in her words,

35
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: healthy masculinity and fighting against a culture that increasingly views

36
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: boys as problematic by defa and she just says she's

37
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 1: witnessed mums saying that they're soap pleased that don't have

38
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 1: to have raised boys like parents like us at raising

39
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,639
Speaker 1: girls in front of the kids, and her teenage girls

40
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 1: question what's the point of boys? And she's obviously concerned

41
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: about creating an environment PUSH's young men towards figures like

42
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate.

43
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 3: Whether you agree with it or not. Once upon a time,

44
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,960
Speaker 3: gendered roles were very clear.

45
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.

46
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 3: There was direction and clarity around what a boy did

47
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 3: and what a girl did, what a man did, what

48
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 3: a woman did. And while we have become leaps and

49
00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,239
Speaker 3: strides in recognizing that it was actually a really small

50
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 3: box we were.

51
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 1: Defined what were girls were, particularly.

52
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,959
Speaker 3: In so many ways. Opening that up and giving all

53
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 3: of the options that are available has actually taken away

54
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,200
Speaker 3: all the parameters. And now there's no clarity. And I

55
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,079
Speaker 3: think our boys particularly are struggling.

56
00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 1: Well, and the evidence certainly points in that direction. That's

57
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 1: the that's the great challenge. So boys are struggling from

58
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,240
Speaker 1: mental health point of view, from an academic point of view,

59
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,720
Speaker 1: from a job point of view, from a university and

60
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 1: educational scholastic point of view. It doesn't really matter what

61
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: you look at. Yes, boys are usually at the top

62
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,239
Speaker 1: of a handful of very important tables, but they're also

63
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,519
Speaker 1: at the bottom, right down there at the bottom.

64
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 2: And overall, on.

65
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: The average, we're seeing girls not just sprinting ahead, but

66
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: their leaps and bounds ahead, which is great for the girls,

67
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,400
Speaker 1: but we need to create a system that brings everybody

68
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,799
Speaker 1: up we don't want to have one. I mean, there

69
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 1: was a sexual revolution and an a gender revolution because

70
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 1: the girls were in that box and they've been freed

71
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 1: from that box. But now we don't want their success

72
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 1: to be the expense of boys. We want everyone to

73
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 1: have the same opportunities for success. So Claire's heard us

74
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 1: talking about this idea of boys needing to first learn

75
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: masculinity and then earn masculinity by bringing surplus value. We've

76
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: talked about that on the pot a couple of times

77
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 1: while I've been writing my boys book, which will be

78
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: out next year. Where so excited about the progress we're

79
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 1: making on it. Now it's going to the publisher in

80
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,080
Speaker 1: the next couple of weeks. I know, I know, but

81
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 1: that concept is not my concept. I've put new words

82
00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,000
Speaker 1: around it, new framing around it, and given it a

83
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 1: new context for the book. It's been popularized in recent

84
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,040
Speaker 1: years by scholars like Richard Reeves and Scott Galloway. It

85
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 1: was originally articulated by an anthropologist called David Gilmore, and

86
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,240
Speaker 1: it's landing not quite right for Claire, and she's not

87
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,920
Speaker 1: the only person. I've had this pushback a couple of

88
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: times now, So I think This is a profound, really simple,

89
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 1: but really profound question. Are we telling boys that they're

90
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 1: not enough as they are, that they need to be

91
00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,560
Speaker 1: more to be different? That's literally what she wrote, and

92
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 1: I love that. Here's what she said in her in

93
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,160
Speaker 1: her email. I'm raising my boys to know that they

94
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: have value just by being themselves, and the idea of

95
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,840
Speaker 1: surplus value feels like it contradicts that fundamental truth.

96
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 3: Let's unpack this a little bit more, this concept of

97
00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 3: surplus value, on what it actually means and why it

98
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,040
Speaker 3: might be more important and less threatening than it initially sounds.

99
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a This is not a conversation

100
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 1: about worth, which is where Claire has gone. And it

101
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 1: makes sense because we're using the word value, like my

102
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,839
Speaker 1: value is valuable as a person. It's really a conversation

103
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: about identity and purpose. What do I mean by that?

104
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: It's recognizing that boys and men typically develop identity and

105
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: self worth differently than the way that girls and women do.

106
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,800
Speaker 3: Well, if you go back to my original conversation around

107
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 3: traditional gendered roles, a man was the bread winner and

108
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,600
Speaker 3: the protector.

109
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, provide protects appropriate, Yeah.

110
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 3: And he no longer has to protect the way he

111
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 3: once did. There's no no dingoes, there's no lions and

112
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,840
Speaker 3: tigers and bears. He doesn't have to play that role.

113
00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 1: And society is generally quite safe.

114
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 3: And then secondly, because women are no longer boxed, he

115
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,040
Speaker 3: often doesn't need to be the bread winner.

116
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even procreation not necessarily involving men anymore, certainly

117
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:55,440
Speaker 1: in the way they.

118
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 3: So from a traditional point of view, he's lost all.

119
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 1: Of his roles. The value that men provided, right, that

120
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: was the value. That was how they showed up and

121
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 1: made the contribution they protected the tribe or the community

122
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 1: they provided for them.

123
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: Here's the thing.

124
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,280
Speaker 1: You can lose eighty percent of the men in your

125
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,479
Speaker 1: tribe and you can still keep that tribe alive, or

126
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 1: your community or your society. You lose eighty percent of

127
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,919
Speaker 1: the women. It's not gonna make it like you're just

128
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,600
Speaker 1: not it's not going to work. And so one of

129
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,919
Speaker 1: my favorite scholars of all time, a guy called Roy Baumeister,

130
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 1: talks about how in every known society we have to

131
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 1: make men. That's literally the line, we have to make men.

132
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: So what he says is time allows girls to become women,

133
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,159
Speaker 1: but that hasn't been the case historically, in any society

134
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 1: that we know of, for men basically mature, healthy masculinity

135
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,719
Speaker 1: is not a naturally occurring phenomenon, and that's why role

136
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,159
Speaker 1: models and rights of passage and even institutions and men's

137
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 1: spaces have been so important. Research keeps on showing that

138
00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,800
Speaker 1: boys are more likely to meaning and identity from what

139
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,040
Speaker 1: they contribute or what they produce. Well, girls are more

140
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,920
Speaker 1: likely to derive it from relationships and from being valued

141
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 1: for who they are. So this isn't a better or

142
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 1: worse thing, it's just different. Claire rightly is giving unconditional

143
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,560
Speaker 1: love and acceptance to her kids, and we're not challenging

144
00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,480
Speaker 1: that that's the foundation for him to develop for those

145
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: boys to develop healthy masculinity.

146
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 2: But boys also tend to.

147
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 1: Need opportunities to feel useful and needed and make contributions

148
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,280
Speaker 1: to develop healthy identity and.

149
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 3: Also have purpose. Yeah, and too often our boys are

150
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 3: coming out of the high school situation lost and they're

151
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 3: completely lost. They've got no direction, no purpose, no, not

152
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 3: even any trajectory of where they might end up. Yeah.

153
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't even know how to signal to the

154
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: people around them that they are going somewhere because they

155
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,800
Speaker 1: don't know where they could be going.

156
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the evidence is really quite clear about that.

157
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 1: Claire's love tells her boys that you matter because you exist,

158
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 1: and that's what they need to hear.

159
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:05,440
Speaker 2: That's really really important.

160
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: The surplus value concept adds and here's how you can

161
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: matter to the world beyond our family, especially to maybe

162
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 1: the family that you'll have in the future. So after

163
00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 1: the break to other vital reasons that this conversation around

164
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:29,280
Speaker 1: surplus value matters. Okay, Kylie, surplus value it matters for

165
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 1: men in ways that we've been talking about already. But

166
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 1: there are two more big things that I want to

167
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,000
Speaker 1: talk about. I've already touched on this, so I'll go

168
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,719
Speaker 1: over this really quickly and get to the big one.

169
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 2: Number three.

170
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 1: David Gilmore I already mentioned him before. He's this cross

171
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: cultural anthropologist wrote book called Manhood and the Making. He

172
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,080
Speaker 1: found that virtually every society across the globe, and virtually

173
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,959
Speaker 1: every society throughout history, has had some form of expectation

174
00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:01,119
Speaker 1: that boys must demonstrate their transition to manhood through contribution

175
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: or achievement or service of some kind. So whether it's

176
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: catching fish or slaying the mammoth or protecting the tribal

177
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifties parlance bringing home the bacon. It's not

178
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 1: arbitrary cultural conditioning like this isn't This isn't something that

179
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 1: we've invented. It's not toxic masculinity. It's not some nineteen

180
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 1: fifties throwback. It appears to be a nearly universal human pattern.

181
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 3: And this conversation intrigues me because I've been thinking about

182
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,800
Speaker 3: the idea of what it means to become a woman,

183
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 3: and by virtue of the physiological changes that take place

184
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:46,040
Speaker 3: in my body, i enter into that path.

185
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:46,560
Speaker 1: Yes.

186
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,680
Speaker 3: What's crazy about that to me, though, is that men

187
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 3: you go through your own.

188
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 1: Physiog there's puberty.

189
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

190
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 1: But this is the thing right, Men have always had

191
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,520
Speaker 1: to both learn and then earn their masculinity. And if

192
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 1: you're not doing the stuff that men do, you are

193
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,280
Speaker 1: judged as being less of a man now. And that's

194
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 1: not just an our culture and society thing. That is

195
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,559
Speaker 1: an anthropologically accurate way to describe most societies and cultures

196
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 1: throughout time and history across the globe. If you're not

197
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 1: doing so once you're a woman, nobody says, oh, because

198
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,840
Speaker 1: you're doing that, you're not much of a woman anymore,

199
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 1: Like you don't have your femininity stripped. Once you're a woman,

200
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,839
Speaker 1: you're a woman. But for men, they have to earn

201
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,760
Speaker 1: that masculinity. And then if they stop producing, they stop contributing,

202
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 1: they stop adding that surplus value that they've added. People

203
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 1: look at them and say, well, what sort of a

204
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,040
Speaker 1: man are you like? That is a that's a phrase

205
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 1: that we use in Australia, what sort of a man

206
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 1: are you? But you never look at a woman and

207
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:46,680
Speaker 1: say what sort of a woman are you like? That's

208
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 1: just not asked. It's a different question, it's a different well,

209
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,360
Speaker 1: it's not a question at all. It doesn't happen.

210
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,680
Speaker 3: This is really curious to me, and I might be

211
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 3: going a little bit of track, but there's this, obviously

212
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 3: this emphasis that as men we need to bring surplus

213
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,600
Speaker 3: value to the world, but we're not asking that of women.

214
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 3: Is that because as women, generally speaking, we're the nurturers,

215
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 3: we're the care is, we provide the emotional framework for

216
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,960
Speaker 3: society and as such we bring something to the world

217
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 3: that generally speaking, men don't.

218
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: I think that could potentially be part of it. But

219
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 1: more than that, through out of all of humanity's evolutionary history.

220
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,880
Speaker 1: Regardless of your perspective on how we got to be

221
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: who we are, society has evolved through the centuries and

222
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 1: through the millennia and throughout all of that time. Because

223
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 1: women are the nurturers and the ones who bear children,

224
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,960
Speaker 1: what they have always done. What women have always done

225
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,120
Speaker 1: is look for the very best genes to pass on

226
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 1: or to mate with and to create offspring with. And

227
00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 1: so if you're a female, whether it's an ancient tribe

228
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 1: or in modern Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Australia, whatever it is,

229
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,840
Speaker 1: you're looking for the person who is going to be

230
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 1: able to demonstrate their fitness. And how do you demonstrate fitness.

231
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 1: You demonstrate fitness by adding value to the lives of

232
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,439
Speaker 1: the people around you. Like if you're selfish, if you're narcissistic,

233
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: if you don't look after anyone except yourself, then no

234
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,440
Speaker 1: woman is going to look at you and say you

235
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,720
Speaker 1: are exactly what I need and exactly what our children

236
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,959
Speaker 1: will need. Whereas if you're the one who goes out

237
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 1: and you slay the wooly mammoth, or you catch enough

238
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 1: fish for the village, or you go off to battle

239
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,679
Speaker 1: and you win the war and you take the scalps

240
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,719
Speaker 1: or whatever it is that you're doing, and you come

241
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 1: back and everyone says you were the hero, and then

242
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 1: you can be modest and humble about it and say, well,

243
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 1: it was a team effort. We all worked really hard.

244
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: You become increasingly desirable, and therefore the men across the

245
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 1: eons of time who have consistently produced have become the

246
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: ones who are the most a manly, most healthy, and

247
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: most sought after. Now that has been abused over time,

248
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's perfect. I'm not saying that's exactly

249
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,719
Speaker 1: the way it always should be, or whatever it is.

250
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,079
Speaker 1: The key insight is not that this is how it

251
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,760
Speaker 1: should be. The key insight is that ignoring this pattern

252
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 1: leaves a lot of boys and men without a clear

253
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,080
Speaker 1: pathway to healthy masculine identity, and society's job is to

254
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 1: provide constructive channels for this drive. If society doesn't, then

255
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 1: boys will often find destructive ones. That's exactly why Claire

256
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: is worried about figures like Andrew Tate showing up and

257
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,720
Speaker 1: misdirecting her boys. And to be clear, her boys sound

258
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 1: like they're great kids. They're age between ten and seventeen,

259
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 1: surrounded by family, love and really clear values. But what

260
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 1: happens when they hit twenty two or twenty five or

261
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 1: thirty two. A lot of young men today report, as

262
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 1: we've already sort of touched on, feeling directionless. A lot

263
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,480
Speaker 1: of them literally say I feel unnecessary. You look at

264
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 1: some of the young men that we work with and

265
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,880
Speaker 1: some of the things that they say, no one will

266
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,600
Speaker 1: ever love me. I'm not providing anything, I'm not showing

267
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: any direction, and I'm being ignored by the girls. And

268
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: it's not because they're not loved enough at home. It's

269
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 1: not because they didn't come from stable families. It's not

270
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 1: because they misunderstand their value as humans. It's because they

271
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,440
Speaker 1: don't know how to be useful. And if they're not

272
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 1: being useful, they're not signaling to prospective partners and mates

273
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:17,360
Speaker 1: that they're going to.

274
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,040
Speaker 2: Be wonderful husbands and fathers.

275
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,800
Speaker 1: That is the thing. Being useful helps men feel more valuable.

276
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 3: What's the last one?

277
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to wrap this up. So this is

278
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 1: why I've written the book. We're seeing unprecedented rates of

279
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: young men dropping out of education, struggling with employment, delaying

280
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 1: traditional markers of adulthood like, that's why we call it

281
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 1: adult essence. Adolescence flows into adult essence now and experiencing

282
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 1: mental health challenges. And I think a lot of this

283
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 1: stems from a lack of clear expectations and pathways for

284
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 1: young men to feel.

285
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 2: Needed by their communities.

286
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 1: And I think Clare's right to worry about the culture

287
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 1: messaging that boys are receiving today, because it is horrendous.

288
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 2: If you look at what the.

289
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 1: News shows about what young men are getting up to,

290
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 1: it is just brutal. But the answer is not to

291
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,240
Speaker 1: pretend that boys and girls develop identity identically. That's a

292
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 1: tongue twister for you. It's to provide positive frameworks for

293
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: masculine development before the boys gravitate towards the negative ones.

294
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 1: So Colie, I'd probably wrap it up with this. The

295
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,680
Speaker 1: surplus value concept isn't about creating pressure. It's not about

296
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,400
Speaker 1: creating impossible expectations or about telling boys that they're not

297
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: worth anything unless they're doing more than being themselves. It's

298
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,720
Speaker 1: about giving boys meaningful ways to channel their natural drives

299
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: towards competence and contribution into positive outcomes, which might mean

300
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: it might mean taking on real responsibilities within the family,

301
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 1: or it could at an age appropriate time, or it

302
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 1: could mean developing skills that are going to betterfit others,

303
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 1: getting certified, getting educated, understanding that the community has expectations

304
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 1: of them as future men, not because they're insufficient, but

305
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: because they're capable of great things.

306
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 3: And I think that if I was going to tweak

307
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 3: this idea of surplus value, for me, the word is contribution.

308
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,360
Speaker 3: What contribution are we willing to make.

309
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: That's why we tell our daughters to look for the

310
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: chair stackers at the end of the night.

311
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 3: That's right. It's not about how much money he earns.

312
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 3: It's not about what job he has, but is he

313
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 3: willing to contribute to the greater good? And that greater

314
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 3: good is in our home, in our community, in the

315
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 3: world in general.

316
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,880
Speaker 1: And I will just add Richard Reeves talks a lot

317
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 1: about surplus value based on what David Gilmore. He calls

318
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,600
Speaker 1: it a healthy man, a real men, provision, kith and kin.

319
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 1: That's the words that David Gilmore used in the Making

320
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 1: of Men. The words that I'm using in my book

321
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,480
Speaker 1: are healthy Masculinity is about helping the people around you

322
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 1: feel safer and stronger, which sits more nicely with your

323
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,720
Speaker 1: idea of contribution, right, How am I contributing to make

324
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 1: things better here? I will just say this at a personal level,

325
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 1: and we're out of time, so I've got to mention

326
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: this really fast. I felt like more of a man.

327
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like a man. I didn't feel like

328
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: a man even in my and I was married and

329
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: paying off a mortgage, and we had kids, and I

330
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,959
Speaker 1: was a student. Right, I was not really providing for us.

331
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 1: The government was providing a support so that I could

332
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 1: get my doctorate, so I could go on to become

333
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,560
Speaker 1: a contributing member of the community. I've more than paid

334
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: back whatever the government gave me in my taxes since then.

335
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 1: But that actually makes me feel like more of a man.

336
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,360
Speaker 1: The fact that I've earned enough money so that I've

337
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 1: paid back the government what we took as a family

338
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: when they provided support to us because I couldn't provide

339
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 1: for us, because I was getting my certifications and qualifications

340
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 1: and my doctorate. It makes me feel like more of

341
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,760
Speaker 1: a man, in spite of the fact that I had

342
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 1: good relationships. It makes me feel like more of a man,

343
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,120
Speaker 1: a manly man, not because of my biceps, but because

344
00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: I add so much value to so many lives because

345
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: I don't just I don't just pay our mortgage and

346
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 1: put food on our table, but we have employees, and

347
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm responsible for earning the money to make sure that

348
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 1: they have food on their tables and pay their rent

349
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: and their mortgage. And I also pay tax, which means

350
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 1: that I'm supporting people in the community who can't provide

351
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,879
Speaker 1: for themselves or who maybe you're looking forward to one

352
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 1: day doing the sort of thing that I'm doing that

353
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: is earning enough money to pay tax because they're getting

354
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,639
Speaker 1: their certification, so my taxes help them to do that.

355
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 3: But again, I don't even think that this is necessarily

356
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:17,959
Speaker 3: all about finances.

357
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 1: No, it's about having impact and helping and lifting and

358
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 1: making a difference.

359
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 3: And so having somebody like Claire come to you because

360
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 3: they know that this is a safe place where they

361
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 3: can have, yes, an open dialogue around how she helps

362
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 3: her sons, you know, kind of move through life in

363
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 3: positive ways, is the biggest contribution that you get to make.

364
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 1: You can sign up to get details about the Boys Book,

365
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 1: which will be out early next year. If you'd like

366
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 1: to be on our mailing list, just go to Happy

367
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,879
Speaker 1: Families dot com DOTU and sign up or check the

368
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 1: show notes. We will link to where you can sign

369
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: up for first bites of the book in the show notes.

370
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 2: We really hope this has given you something to think about.

371
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,680
Speaker 1: The Happy Famili's podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

372
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 1: Bridge Media.

373
00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 2: Mimhammonds provides admin

374
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: Research and additional support, and if you would like more

375
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 1: information and resources, visit happy families dot com dot a