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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcotin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: All Right, we're recording. Good morning and welcome to the

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Speaker 2: Daily os It's Friday, the nineteenth of August. I'm Sam,

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Speaker 2: I'm Zara. In March last year, the federal government made

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Speaker 2: a fifteen million dollar investment into the use of psychedelics

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Speaker 2: to treat mental health. Now, clinical trials are underway around

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Speaker 2: Australia to work out if the psychedelic quality is found

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Speaker 2: in magic mushrooms can be used to cure anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 2: But how does it work and how long until you

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Speaker 2: can get psychedelics at your local pharmacy. We'll get into

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Speaker 2: it in the deep dive at first, Zara, what's making

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Speaker 2: headlines this Friday morning?

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Speaker 3: To slightly more mundane matters, the Australian Bureau of Statistics

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Speaker 3: has announced the unemployment rate for July was three point

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Speaker 3: four percent. That is the lowest figure recorded since nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy four. The underemployment rate, which measures people who didn't

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Speaker 3: work as much as they wanted to, also fell slightly

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Speaker 3: to six percent.

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Speaker 2: Supply for MONKEYPOXX vaccines in Queensland is failing to meet demand,

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Speaker 2: with Queensland Health estimating that only three hundred doses have

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Speaker 2: arrived in the state. All vaccines are being kept for

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Speaker 2: close contacts and new cases of monkey pox, with more

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Speaker 2: supplies set to arrive later this year and into next year.

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Speaker 3: The NRL Ground Final will return to Sydney this year

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Speaker 3: after the New South Wales government successfully navigated tense negotiations

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Speaker 3: with the NRL to keep the event in the state.

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Speaker 3: The decision came after New South Wales Premier Dominique Perrete

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Speaker 3: walked away from an agreement to fund upgrades to some

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Speaker 3: of Sydney's suburban stadiums. This raised tensions with the NRL

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Speaker 3: and open the door for Queensland to host the event.

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Speaker 2: And we might stick with sport for the Friday good news.

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Speaker 2: The NBA, the National Basketball Association competition over in the US,

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Speaker 2: announced it won't play any games on the day of

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Speaker 2: the US midterm elections, that's the eighth of November. An

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Speaker 2: NBA spokesperson said that would allow quote a focus on

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Speaker 2: promoting non partisan civic engagement and encouraging fans to make

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Speaker 2: a plan to vote.

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Speaker 3: That is something we can get around. Just a quick

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Speaker 3: heads up, this episode deals with issues around anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 3: So if you're not in the right headspace to be

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Speaker 3: listening to this, we will check back in with you

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Speaker 3: on Monday. Okay, Sam, there is one show that you

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Speaker 3: have told me to watch a number of times that

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Speaker 3: I have not done, but you're obsessed with it. Talk

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Speaker 3: to me about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan of the odd Netflix stocko series

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Speaker 2: and this one's really grabbed my attention. It's called How

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Speaker 2: to Change Your Mind, and it's basically about how psychedelics

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Speaker 2: are helping people with mental health issues.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so it plays out in an American context, but

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Speaker 3: today we're bringing it home talking about it here in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Well, after watching the doco, we did a little bit

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Speaker 2: more digging and we found that there are trials going

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Speaker 2: on at multiple Australian universities right now to determine just

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Speaker 2: that and I was totally fascinated by this.

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Speaker 3: So much so that I legitimately think you mentioned it

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Speaker 3: every day last week.

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Speaker 2: So to find out more about how this is playing out,

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Speaker 2: I reached out to the head of the Clinical Psychedelic

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Speaker 2: Research Lab at Monash University down in Melbourne to talk

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Speaker 2: about a super interesting trial they're running for the use

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Speaker 2: of psilocybin in the treatment of generalized anxiety.

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Speaker 4: My name's Paul Lackinitski. I head up the Clinical Psychedelic

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Speaker 4: Research Lab at Monash University. So the lab is a

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Speaker 4: hive of activity right now after many years of preparation

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Speaker 4: and waiting for the tide to shift. But it's safe

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Speaker 4: to say the field in Australia of psychedelic research is

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Speaker 4: alive and well and growing very rapidly.

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Speaker 5: And so what area at Monasha you specifically looking into.

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Speaker 4: So we are establishing a number of clinical trials this

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Speaker 4: year using psychedelics for different mental health indications. One trial

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Speaker 4: is psilocybin assisted psychotherapy and the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder.

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Speaker 5: What is psilocybin poor So.

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Speaker 4: Psilocybin is the psychoactive ingredient in magic mushrooms. We use

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Speaker 4: synthetic psilocybin in research trials, as do all others. It

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Speaker 4: is a classic psychedelic. It exerts almost all of its

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Speaker 4: psychoactive effects through a single receptor in the brain. Just

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Speaker 4: activates one receptor subtype that produces these widespread effects, and

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Speaker 4: the kinds of effects that people experience are highly varied,

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Speaker 4: but at high dose, which is what we use in

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Speaker 4: our trial twenty five milligrams of synthetic psilocybin, it produces

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Speaker 4: a remarkable and dramatic altered state of consciousness that entails

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Speaker 4: changes to the way you think, the way you feel,

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Speaker 4: and the kinds of things you can perceive, and for

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Speaker 4: all kinds of reasons, seems to be incredibly useful for

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Speaker 4: a lot of people in terms of their therapeutic process.

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Speaker 4: Often there is a dramatic shift in perspective that people

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Speaker 4: can gain, whereby they are seeing old problems from a

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Speaker 4: completely new angle, and a whole set of insights often ensue.

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Speaker 4: And most importantly, the kinds of insights that people experience

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Speaker 4: under the influence of well supported psilocybin are not just

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Speaker 4: heady thoughts or abstractions about yourself or the world or others,

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Speaker 4: but rather often very deeply felt sometimes very embodied, and

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Speaker 4: it's a kind of encounter if you like that can

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Speaker 4: leave a lasting change on a person.

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Speaker 5: What do you mean by well supported psilocybin docgy and

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Speaker 5: tell us about how you're supporting individuals through the trials.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is a really important and often overlooked aspect

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Speaker 4: of the treatment. When people talk about psychedelic medicine, just

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Speaker 4: by virtue of the framing, the idea is often that

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Speaker 4: what is most important there is the psychedelic when in

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Speaker 4: reality we're delivering psychedelic assisted therapy, which is a form

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Speaker 4: of augmented psychotherapy, and the nature of the support and

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Speaker 4: the environment is perhaps just as important as the nature

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Speaker 4: of the drug effects. So we use a psychotherapeutic model

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Speaker 4: that has the typical three phases of treatment in psychedelic therapies.

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Speaker 4: We prepare people, which is geared around developing a strong

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Speaker 4: relationship in a short period of time and increasing trust

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Speaker 4: in the whole process, and also a whole set of

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Speaker 4: pragmatics around what the dosing day entails. And then there's

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Speaker 4: the dosing sessions. Different trials have different numbers of dosing sessions,

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Speaker 4: and in the high dose studies they are all day sessions.

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Speaker 4: Psychoactive effects of high dose psilocybin are about six to

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Speaker 4: eight hours, and the process there is often quite internal,

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Speaker 4: but there can be all kinds of different expressions of

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Speaker 4: thought and feeling and relationality in the room. And then

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Speaker 4: there's an integration phase with a number of sessions that

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Speaker 4: follow each dosing session, where the therapists are assisting participants

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Speaker 4: to make meaning out of their experience, to regain a

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Speaker 4: sense of proximity to that experience and the kind of

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Speaker 4: insights they had or the alignment to their values that

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Speaker 4: felt very important during the dosing session off and in

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Speaker 4: our case with the trials we're doing, there are a

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Speaker 4: number of cycles of that process of support. So clearly

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Speaker 4: the classic psychedelcts can be therapeutically useful for people who

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Speaker 4: use them in the wild even without support, but in

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Speaker 4: some cases they're not useful. In some cases they can

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Speaker 4: be detrimental, and there certainly are all kinds of safety

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Speaker 4: concerns that we mitigate very well in the control context

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Speaker 4: in which we deliver psychedelics that are often not mitigated

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Speaker 4: well when people use them in the wild. In that study,

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Speaker 4: we also have a sub study associated with it, which

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Speaker 4: is the opportunity for our therapists to undergo a high

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Speaker 4: dose psilocybin session with supportive conditions as part of their training,

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Speaker 4: and that's another world first. There's not been a study

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Speaker 4: like it before with psilocybin. Although in the first wave

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Speaker 4: of psychedelics psychiatry in the fifty sixties in early seven

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Speaker 4: it was absolutely standard that psychedelic practitioners had experience with LSD,

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Speaker 4: which was the flagship psychedelic of that era. But in

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Speaker 4: the modern era, we've seen only one other example of

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Speaker 4: a psychedelic like drug being used as a training tool,

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Speaker 4: which is in the case of the MAPS MDMA studies,

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Speaker 4: where they offer their therapists the opportunity to undergo MDMA

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Speaker 4: as part of their training. So we're assessing, we're assessing

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Speaker 4: the utility of psilocybin with support as a training tool

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Speaker 4: from both the perspective of the therapists and also from

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Speaker 4: the perspective of their clinical participants. And it's worth noting

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Speaker 4: that all the therapists on team, who are a wonderful

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Speaker 4: bunch of people, I feel very fortunate to work with them.

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Speaker 4: They're all qualified and highly experienced mental healthcare workers of

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Speaker 4: different sorts who have then undergone a training program with us,

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Speaker 4: and this opportunity to have psilocybin is the final piece

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Speaker 4: of that.

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Speaker 5: And Paul, what's the hypothesis with giving therapists associated doses

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Speaker 5: as well? Is it that increases the sense of empathy

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Speaker 5: and that then increases the quality of the therapy.

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Speaker 4: Well, these are empirical questions. We're going to be assessing

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Speaker 4: this over the course of this trial. But the rationale

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Speaker 4: for it is that having had a similar supported psilocybin

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Speaker 4: session for therapists may increase their capacities to be a

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Speaker 4: therapist in a number of respects. The one is, as

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Speaker 4: you say, the potential to increase empathy for the participants

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Speaker 4: who are undergoing psychedelic experience. And this may be particularly

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Speaker 4: pertinent given how dramatic and unusual and ineffable psychedelic experiences are.

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Speaker 4: They are by definition impossible to describe, so you can't

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Speaker 4: write it down in a manual and convey what it

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Speaker 4: is that the participant is going through. And this also

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Speaker 4: potentially extends to their ability to provide a appropriate support.

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Speaker 4: Very often people under the influence of psilocybin are highly sensitive,

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Speaker 4: and it can be the case that the very well

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Speaker 4: intentioned support can be misaligned to the needs of the participant,

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Speaker 4: and so having a very nuanced sense of what a

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Speaker 4: participant is going through may increase the alignment. But also

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Speaker 4: there's you know, there are other rationals. For example, participants

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Speaker 4: will often ask therapists for good reason. When they're nervous

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Speaker 4: and about to go into their dosing session. They'll often

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Speaker 4: ask their therapist whether they've had the same experience before,

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Speaker 4: seeking that kind of reassurance from somebody with experience, and

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Speaker 4: it's very useful for the therapists in our trial to

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Speaker 4: be able to answer that they have. You know, by analogy,

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Speaker 4: if you were to be on your first astronaut trip

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Speaker 4: to another planet and the only support you receive is

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Speaker 4: via radio from ground control, it'd be quite nice to

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Speaker 4: know that the people that are going giding you on

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Speaker 4: your travels on this foreign planet have at least some

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Speaker 4: understanding and preferably even prior experience traveling on that planet themselves.

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Speaker 5: How does the psilocybin play out in one with generalized

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Speaker 5: anxiety disorder?

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Speaker 4: For people struggling with depression or maybe a substance dependence

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Speaker 4: or anxiety, often the kinds of processes that people report

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Speaker 4: from psychedelic treatments look quite similar. People will often report

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Speaker 4: going deep into their past or deep into their belief

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Speaker 4: structure and finding a completely new way of relating to

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Speaker 4: themselves or the world with anxiety. What, we don't know

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Speaker 4: what the mechanisms of change will be in this particular

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Speaker 4: trial that is underway right now. We're assessing mechanisms, we're

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Speaker 4: assessing aspects that we think may be important in driving change.

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Speaker 4: But you know, I think it's likely to be the

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Speaker 4: case that underlying these symptoms are a set of experiences

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Speaker 4: that people avoid. That's often a key factor in mental

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Speaker 4: illness and mental pathologies, that there is a set of

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Speaker 4: experiences that are overwhelming or unbearable for people, and those

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Speaker 4: experiences are avoided and replaced by either a substance use,

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Speaker 4: or a depressive belief structure or an anxiety. And when

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Speaker 4: people have this opportunity to have unprecedented contact with the

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Speaker 4: sources of their distress, the very thing that they've spent

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Speaker 4: a lot of their lives avoiding, there is that opportunity

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Speaker 4: to find a new relationship to that source of distress.

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Speaker 4: Often it's not the case that this source of distress

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Speaker 4: disappears or the memory goes or anything like that, but

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Speaker 4: that there is a way in which that can be

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Speaker 4: shifted from being kind of petrified and locked in time

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Speaker 4: to being dynamic and having the opportunity to kind of

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Speaker 4: enter into a virtual cycle of learning where new repertoires

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Speaker 4: can be set down and people can change the way

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Speaker 4: they think and feel and behave.

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Speaker 5: So can we enroll as candidates in the study?

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Speaker 4: Yes, so people can apply to enroll in our studies

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Speaker 4: at Monish University. Of course, the eligibility criteria are very

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Speaker 4: strict and quite narrow for both safety and scientific reasons,

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Speaker 4: and so it's worth just saying that many more people

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Speaker 4: apply than we can accommodate.

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Speaker 1: But there.

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Speaker 4: Is one trial Admonish that is currently in treatment phase,

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Speaker 4: and there'll be a couple more coming online later this year.

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Speaker 4: If somebody would like to apply and currently experiences generalized

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Speaker 4: anxiety disorder symptoms, they can just simply write to Psilocybin

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Speaker 4: Admonished dot edu and they will receive a link in response.

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Speaker 5: Poor, We can't tell you how much we appreciate your time,

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Speaker 5: and it sounds like some fascinating work you're doing, and

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Speaker 5: I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of the

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Speaker 5: clinical trials and the years ahead.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us on the Daily OZ. If

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Speaker 3: you learned something, and honestly I learned a lot today,

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Speaker 3: don't forget to hit subscribe so there's a new TDA

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Speaker 3: episode waiting for you every morning. We'll be back again

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Speaker 3: on Monday, but until then, have a brilliant weekend.

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Speaker 5: Okay,