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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line right now to talk

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Speaker 1: about some of what had happened yesterday in Parliament is

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Speaker 1: Robin Lamley, the Independent member Fararra Lun. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Robin, Good morning, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Robin. Changes in parliament yesterday to the IKAK with the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territories corruption watchdogs set to soon be prevented from

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Speaker 1: investigating minor misconduct, while journalists shield laws have been strengthened.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I know that both you and Mark Turner had raised

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Speaker 1: some concerns yesterday in Parliament. My understanding, and please correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that those

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Speaker 1: concerns centered around MLAs being able to well vote on

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Speaker 1: whether these changes went ahead or not, despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that some of them could or may or anyone really

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Speaker 1: inside Parliament right now could actually be being investigated by

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Speaker 1: the IKAK.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Katie. One of the biggest challenges ICAQ has

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Speaker 2: faced during the round the six years that it's been

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Speaker 2: operating is dealing with conflicts of interest given that were

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Speaker 2: such a small jurisdiction. There's no separation between any of us.

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Speaker 2: We're all neighbors, friends, were colleagues, etc. So it's been

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Speaker 2: an almost impossible task for the KA to even operate

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Speaker 2: given this, and there's a very wide misunderstanding or lack

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Speaker 2: of comprehension of what a conflict of interest is. But

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Speaker 2: going into Parliament yesterday was fascinating, Katie, because we know

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Speaker 2: that at least one or two ministers have been or

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Speaker 2: currently under investigation for different matters, and yet they were

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Speaker 2: a part of amending or changing this Ikak legislation, and

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Speaker 2: they participated in the debate and the vote yesterday on

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Speaker 2: changing this legislation, which I believe, and so did Mark Turner,

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Speaker 2: the Independent members of Blame believe and is the opposition

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Speaker 2: I should say too, because they supported me that this

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Speaker 2: is a conflict of interest. I tried to adjourn the

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Speaker 2: debate to allow those members, those ministers to identify themselves

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Speaker 2: and recuse themselves from participating in this debate, and of

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Speaker 2: course the government shut down and dismissed it, and we

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Speaker 2: voted on it. There was a division and the debate

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Speaker 2: continued with no ministers recusing themselves.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask, I mean, do we know who's currently

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Speaker 1: being investigated or involved in an investigation with the IKA?

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Speaker 1: Because I wasn't aware of that, So is it widely known.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to get either of us

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Speaker 1: in trouble if we name somebody that's not supposed to be.

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Speaker 1: But is that widely known at the moment.

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Speaker 2: No, it isn't and the only person who knows conclusively

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Speaker 2: is the IKAQ Commissioner. But we do know of several

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Speaker 2: referrals that have been made over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: We know that, for a fact, I've made a couple

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Speaker 2: of referrals myself. As a member of Parliament, I have

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Speaker 2: a mandatory responsibility to report any concerns I have around

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Speaker 2: misconduct or corruption. So there is an understanding that at

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Speaker 2: least a couple of the ministers have been or are

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Speaker 2: currently being investigated by ik and the fact that they

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Speaker 2: didn't identify themselves, which I suppose in itself is a

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Speaker 2: huge embarrassment, is really a question of integrity, and integrity

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Speaker 2: is at the core of why we need an independent

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Speaker 2: Commission against corruption. So it was a fascinating debate and

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Speaker 2: turn of events Katie, which led to some interesting comments.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Mark Turnert likened the fact that the ministers

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Speaker 2: who are being investigated and have been part of changing

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Speaker 2: this legislation. He likened it to a defendant changing the

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Speaker 2: laws to stop themselves from being potentially found guilty. And

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Speaker 2: Eva Lawla made an interesting comment. She said, there are

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Speaker 2: no members that are under investigation in this house, like

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Speaker 2: she wouldn't actually know that. So there was lots of

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Speaker 2: doing and throwing and interesting comments being made.

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Speaker 1: Now, that is one of the questions that I suppose

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Speaker 1: our listeners are asking this morning. They're saying, how does

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Speaker 1: Robin know if somebody is under investigation at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I said, it's speculation because we know that

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Speaker 2: referrals have been made. I definitely know that the two

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Speaker 2: referrals I made were followed up.

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Speaker 1: So you've made two referrals against.

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Speaker 2: I've made two referrals and that's all on the public record,

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Speaker 2: and it's probably not the time to be talking about that,

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Speaker 2: but I have made two referrals, and I know that

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Speaker 2: they can't the under investigation because those investigations have not

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Speaker 2: been concluded. So unorory confident, as are other people that

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Speaker 2: there are at least one or two ministers that should

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Speaker 2: have recused themselves and identified their conflict of interest. But Katie,

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Speaker 2: it goes to a broader issue, and that is that

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Speaker 2: Eykac is a sinking ship. This is something that's operated

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Speaker 2: or attempted to operate for six years and it just

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Speaker 2: hasn't worked because of how small we are in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory. We are too close to each other, We

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Speaker 2: are too closely connected to each other. He can't get people,

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Speaker 2: Mister Richard's the commissioner, can't get people to work for

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Speaker 2: him because of potential or perceived or actual conflicts of interest.

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Speaker 2: And even the investigations that have been undertaken, a lot

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Speaker 2: of them have been swarted by the fact that people

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Speaker 2: have had conflicts of interests.

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Speaker 1: Re needs to happen. What needs to happen? Robin, do

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Speaker 1: you think that we need to maybe go to a

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Speaker 1: national body or somehow You know, we have sort of

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Speaker 1: a body that I don't know that's operating out of

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory that can investigate Northern Territory matters.

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Speaker 2: I spoke about my views in Parliament yesterday and my

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Speaker 2: view is that this was never going to work all along.

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Speaker 2: I have advocated that we have like an information and

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Speaker 2: referral center for IKAT in the Northern Territory and that

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Speaker 2: the investigations are undertaken by other jurisdictions. We actually outsource

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Speaker 2: this work because it doesn't work the way it is.

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Speaker 2: And the legislation that was put through yesterday was an

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Speaker 2: attempt to plug up the holes that all this efficatie

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Speaker 2: has been put into trying to make this sinking ship

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Speaker 2: remain afloat when it will never remain afloat. It will

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Speaker 2: never ever work, and we should we should have used

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Speaker 2: this opportunity, this point of review, to completely reset and

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Speaker 2: change how we operate IQAQ investigations in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: This was a missed opportunity. We've tried to plug up

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Speaker 2: the holes, and I think in a year's time, two

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Speaker 2: years time in the future, it will be proven that

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Speaker 2: even these attempts will fail. It just won't work. We

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Speaker 2: are too small of a jurisdiction, Robin.

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Speaker 1: There will be people out there listening, thinking to themselves.

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Speaker 1: So we can't get rid of the IKAK. We want

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Speaker 1: the IKAC to still be there, to be able to

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Speaker 1: investigate possible corruption in the Northern Territory. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: do you say to those people.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that we disband in it. I'm saying

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Speaker 2: we keep our IKACK, that the actual work of investigating

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Speaker 2: is outsourced we have a Northern Territory IQACK that actually

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Speaker 2: doesn't undertake investigations because we know because the proof in there,

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Speaker 2: this is the fact that there have been so few

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Speaker 2: reports of investigations made public or completed by the IKAP

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Speaker 2: Commissioner Commissioners over the six years it's been operating. This

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Speaker 2: work has to be undertaken by another jurisdiction, New South Wales,

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Speaker 2: Victorious South Australia, Queensland, whoever. You could use all of them.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure they'd be lining up to do some business

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Speaker 2: with the Northern Territory. You could pick and choose where

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Speaker 2: they go, depending on the players involved and the perceived

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Speaker 2: conflicts that they may have with different people. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we could develop a whole new model. But yes, we

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Speaker 2: keep the eyekack. Absolutely we have corruption in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: You can see it, you can feel it. But undertaking

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Speaker 2: the investigation exclusively by this unit here does not work,

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Speaker 2: and it will never work. Case Robin proven it.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go this morning. Something we've discussed

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Speaker 1: over a number of months, really not even just the

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Speaker 1: last few weeks, but quite a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: Up here in the top end is this two kilometer

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Speaker 1: law when it comes to public drinking in Darwin. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know it's the same in Ala Springs, it's the

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Speaker 1: same in other locations. The government's been at pains to

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Speaker 1: say that it is still an offense to drink in public,

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Speaker 1: yet we see it all too often around the place.

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Speaker 1: We now know as part of the legis or not

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Speaker 1: the legislation the review that the government tabled in parliament

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Speaker 1: last week that the only thing that the police can

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Speaker 1: actually do if people are drinking in public is tip

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Speaker 1: out that alcohol. Do you think that the government's been

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Speaker 1: dishonest on this to try and sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: to try and push their own agenda that public drinking

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Speaker 1: is still an offense when it seems it's not.

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Speaker 2: Well, it would seem that way. I listened very carefully

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Speaker 2: to what Steve Edgington, the opposition spokesperson around this. He

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Speaker 2: was on your program on Friday. I was on the panel,

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Speaker 2: and Steve explained it very clearly that it is no

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Speaker 2: longer an offense to drink in public within this two

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Speaker 2: kilometer provision. And the fact that the Opposition tried to

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Speaker 2: put through that legislation last week to make it an offense,

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Speaker 2: which was of course knocked back by the government was

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Speaker 2: a missed opportunity. It was politics one O one, you

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Speaker 2: know whatever. The opposition says, don't support it, but look,

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Speaker 2: this could make a difference. I heard you talk about

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Speaker 2: the fact that they in the review they want rangers

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Speaker 2: to have the powers to tip out alcohol. This happens

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Speaker 2: in Alice Springs. The rangers do that, or they did

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Speaker 2: do that. I haven't revisited that recently. I'm not advocating

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Speaker 2: that they continue to do it because I think the

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Speaker 2: world has changed a bit. Everything seems to be a

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Speaker 2: little bit more violent and aggressive, and given the fact

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Speaker 2: that people have lost their lives, even serving at a

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Speaker 2: bottle shop makes things very different the goal posts of moves.

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Speaker 2: But to knock back something that could make a difference

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Speaker 2: in terms of legislation with poor form on the government's part,

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Speaker 2: and I think they are coming under increasing pressure to

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Speaker 2: do something and to do more, and if they're perceived

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Speaker 2: as not acting within the community's expectations, then they will

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Speaker 2: pay the price at the polling booth in August.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, well, Robin Landley, we always appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having a chat with us

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Speaker 1: this morning, and no doubt we'll talk to you again

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Speaker 1: very soon.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie, thank you