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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to the kids, They're just not ready

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Speaker 2: for full fettered freedom, full fettered, unfitted, unfettered freedom. Full

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Speaker 2: fettered would be the opposite of unfettered. They're not ready

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Speaker 2: for unfettered freedom.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot Com, tea you and the host sorry co

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Speaker 2: hosts of the fabulous primetime TV show and channel line

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Speaker 2: called Parental Guidance. I'm struggling Klye with this morning. What

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Speaker 2: is going on with me? I was feeling fantastic until

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Speaker 2: I have another microphone.

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Speaker 3: You're having a hard time this morning, I really am, but.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like you are too. That was a long gap.

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Speaker 2: So before we get into today's podcast, which is in

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Speaker 2: response to some questions that were asked on social media

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Speaker 2: a post that we put up recently, I want to

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Speaker 2: share some feedback that we've had from Renee Renee Fraser,

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Speaker 2: who has kindly sent us an email. Podcasts at Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. Now this is some positive

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Speaker 2: feedback about my new book, The Parenting Revolution. But I'm

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Speaker 2: sharing this because it ties in the question that come

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Speaker 2: up on social media that you're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: in a sex So this is what Renee said. She said,

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Speaker 2: just to thank you. I'm amom of two kids aged

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Speaker 2: eleven and eight. I'm an occupational therapist. I've been working

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Speaker 2: with kids for twenty years and I'm a teacher into

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Speaker 2: the OT program at the University of Sydney and a

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Speaker 2: PhD candidate parent interventions for kids with disabilities who are

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Speaker 2: fussy eaters. Renee is a qualified, smart individual. She says,

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Speaker 2: reading The Parenting Revolution was music to my ears. It

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Speaker 2: fits with my core so it was an easy read,

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Speaker 2: but so great to reflect and continue to learn. I'm

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Speaker 2: always talking about interventions that are responsive and your need

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Speaker 2: supportive parenting matches with responsive feeding frameworks and occupational performance coaching,

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Speaker 2: which I use for parent coaching. The balance you strike

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Speaker 2: between being easy reading and providing great information based in

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Speaker 2: research is fabulous. Thank you for being evidence based and

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Speaker 2: being accessible to mainstream parents. Well, Renee, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for your email. And if I said your name incorrectly,

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Speaker 2: I have to apologize. It could be Reen r E

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Speaker 2: N E. I just I hope that I got it right,

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Speaker 2: and if I got it wrong, you know who I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about. And thank you so much for the email.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it so nice when people say nice things about

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Speaker 2: the book? If you haven't grabbed a copy, by the way,

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Speaker 2: the pairing Revolution, just buy wherever you buy books. It's

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Speaker 2: available right now and even people who are very, very

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Speaker 2: knowledgeable are finding it helpful, which makes me feel great. So, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about this issue that came up on social

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Speaker 2: media in relation to the posts about the book.

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Speaker 3: So a couple of people, we are really struggling with

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Speaker 3: the idea of structure. We think about structure it's all

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Speaker 3: about boundary setting for our kids. And yet your book

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Speaker 3: is heavily focused on being autonomy supportive, needs supportive in

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Speaker 3: your parenting. And if autonomy equals freedom for our how

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Speaker 3: does structure work in with that? Because is that not

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Speaker 3: counterintuitive to what we're trying to achieve with our kids?

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Speaker 2: So structures is about limits and autonomy is about freedom.

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Speaker 2: How do they work together? Yeah, So the definitions really

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Speaker 2: matter here, and I think that it's a pretty easy

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Speaker 2: one to resolve, but it's worth spending about ten minutes

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Speaker 2: on because this will fundamentally change the way that we

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Speaker 2: raise our kids. Oh and by the way, maybe you

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Speaker 2: don't need to buy the book if you'll listened to

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Speaker 2: this conversation, I mean, if it's helpful, that's great. So

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Speaker 2: first of all, let's get clear on what structure is.

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Speaker 2: What structure means. Structure is what we provide to help

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Speaker 2: kids to feel competent.

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Speaker 3: So you talk about structure, and because I'm a very

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Speaker 3: visual person, I actually am going straight to a swimming pool.

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Speaker 3: You can't have a body of water without a structure to.

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Speaker 2: Hold it in great, great, great right.

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Speaker 3: So if I want my kids to actually be able

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Speaker 3: to enjoy the water, then I need a structure in

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Speaker 3: place to hold the water in there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So and I think of a soccer field.

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Speaker 2: It's similar sort of metaphor. That is, if you want

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Speaker 2: to enjoy a game of soccer or netball, you have

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Speaker 2: to follow the rules, like the game only exists because

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Speaker 2: the structure has been put in place, The rules and

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Speaker 2: limits have been put in place. Netball ceases to be

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Speaker 2: netball if you break out of the structure that defines netball.

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Speaker 2: For example, if you grab the ball and run at

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Speaker 2: your opponent. Suddenly it's not netball anymore. It's right or

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Speaker 2: you dribble, yeah, then it's basketball. And so structure is

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Speaker 2: another word for rules or limits or boundaries. It's the

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Speaker 2: structure that makes stuff work. And structure doesn't just apply

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Speaker 2: to sport. Structure applies to things like mornings and evenings.

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Speaker 2: Like when you have an established structure, mornings make sense

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Speaker 2: and the kids feel competent because they know what's expected

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Speaker 2: at any given time.

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Speaker 3: So the kids, for instance, they know that they wake

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Speaker 3: up at a certain time, they have breakfast at a

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Speaker 3: certain time, and then they've got a few jobs that

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Speaker 3: they need to do before they go to school.

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Speaker 2: Right, we're talking about structure. And as they satisfy the

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Speaker 2: requirements of the structure, they feel competent. They actually feel

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Speaker 2: good about themselves, whereas if they don't know what's expected

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Speaker 2: or there is no structure, they often don't feel good

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Speaker 2: at all. They feel all legs of kimbo, like all

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Speaker 2: a bit funny about things.

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Speaker 3: Would you suggest then then maybe without that structure, they

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Speaker 3: actually feel overwhelmed because there's too many options available to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and they'll often just end up sitting

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Speaker 2: on the couch and searing at a screen because what

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Speaker 2: do I do? It's overwhelming. I'm going to do whatever

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Speaker 2: is easy. I'm going to take the path of least resistance.

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Speaker 2: But structure doesn't just apply to things like school or

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Speaker 2: mornings or evenings or sport. It applies to how we

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Speaker 2: get along in our home, Like the way our relationships work.

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Speaker 2: There's a structure. We have structures and rules and limits

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Speaker 2: and boundaries around things like respect and kindness and helping

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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. So structure is the kind

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Speaker 2: of clunky psychological term that researchers use to describe how

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Speaker 2: things work, what makes things make sense, How we can

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Speaker 2: make life predictable because that's how kids develop their sense

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Speaker 2: of competence, which is the need that we're trying to

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Speaker 2: support here. So if structure applies across the board, what

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Speaker 2: it's really about is creating a sense of predictability because

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Speaker 2: when the kids know that life is predictable, they can

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Speaker 2: then competently follow the path, They can follow the boundaries,

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Speaker 2: the limits, whatever it might be. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I guess the next question is, then, how

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Speaker 3: does autonomy play within this structure? Because if I'm struggling

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Speaker 3: with this concept. Then the idea of creating these boundaries

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Speaker 3: is limiting my children from being able to utilize their autonomy.

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Speaker 2: Some people, when they hear me talking about autonomy, they

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Speaker 2: think that the kids are going to be independent, They're

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Speaker 2: going to have complete freedom, they can do whatever they want.

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Speaker 2: That's not what autonomy or anarchy. Yeah, it kind of is.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to be healthy and because our children

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Speaker 2: developmentally are not at a place where they're ready for

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Speaker 2: that level of freedom. I mean, even as adults, there

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Speaker 2: are structures around us, like road rules for example.

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Speaker 1: We have.

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Speaker 2: Laws and they provide structure to our lives. We have jobs,

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Speaker 2: they provide structure to our lives, all of these things,

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Speaker 2: we have things like Christmas. All of these things are structures.

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Speaker 2: They help us to have a predictable way of living

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Speaker 2: our lives. But we also have a high level of

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Speaker 2: autonomy as adults because we figured out how to navigate

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Speaker 2: life functionally using those structures, for the support that they

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Speaker 2: give us and also for access to things that we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have without those structures. When it comes to the kids,

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Speaker 2: they're not ready. They're just not ready for full fettered freedom,

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Speaker 2: full fettered unfettered unfettered freedom. Full fettered would be the

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Speaker 2: opposite of unfettered. They're not ready for unfettered freedom. They

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Speaker 2: need a wise, mature, experienced guide beside them as they

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Speaker 2: develop their own understanding of what the structures are, both

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Speaker 2: in our family and at school and the broader society.

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Speaker 3: So this reminds me of one of my very first

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Speaker 3: art lessons. Right, I was just an unstructured activity with

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Speaker 3: a friend. She had all the things out on the table, literally,

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Speaker 3: like there was pastels, there was watercolors, there was acrylics.

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Speaker 3: It was all there, and she sat me down and

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Speaker 3: she said, you can do whatever you want. Overwhelming, And

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Speaker 3: I sat there for about five minutes right looking at

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Speaker 3: everything and thinking, well, I could do that, but I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure how to use that properly. And I was

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Speaker 3: paralyzed in my ability to make a choice because there

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Speaker 3: was just so much available to me, and yet none

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Speaker 3: of it made sense. And so it wasn't until she

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Speaker 3: realized what was going on, and she says, ah, okay,

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Speaker 3: hang on a sec and she ripped out a piece

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Speaker 3: of paper and she handed it to me and she said,

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Speaker 3: we're just going to draw the same flower, all of

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Speaker 3: us we're just going to give it a go with

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Speaker 3: a pencil. And as a result of doing that, we

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Speaker 3: shared their drawings. So we did a collaborative drawing. We

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Speaker 3: each did a different step, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: it wasn't so daunting anymore. She created a structure around

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Speaker 3: what was available that I could then go, oh, I

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Speaker 3: can do that.

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Speaker 2: Here's the critical thing about autonomy, though, within the framework

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Speaker 2: or the structure that was provided. Now we've got some rules,

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Speaker 2: we're going to all draw this flower. You still had

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of choice. You had the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: independently determine, to self determine what color I'm going to draw,

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Speaker 2: what size I'm going to draw, what medium I'm going

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Speaker 2: to use. Am I going to actually paint this thing?

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Speaker 2: Or am I going to draw it? Am I going

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Speaker 2: to do it in black and white or color like?

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Speaker 2: You still had a whole lot of capacity to choose.

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Speaker 2: And so when it comes to structure and autonomy with

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Speaker 2: our kids, the idea is we create opportunities to develop

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Speaker 2: structure together with them having as much of a voice

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Speaker 2: as is reasonable for their age. I mean, you're going

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Speaker 2: to give you your thirteen or fourteen, you're old a

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Speaker 2: whole lot more voice than you will your two or

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Speaker 2: three year old. But they can still have a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of voice.

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Speaker 3: When your kids are young. For instance, you could suggest

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Speaker 3: you can wear this outfit or this outfit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of feels a little bit forced to me.

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Speaker 2: Let me share an experiment that I write about in

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Speaker 2: the book in the Parenting Revolution, that might be helpful.

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Speaker 2: I just think it's a profoundly useful tool for teaching

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Speaker 2: how these things work together. So a researcher from Canada,

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Speaker 2: his name is Richard Kesner. He's the nicest guy, soft spoken, kind, gentle,

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Speaker 2: just a really delightful human And Kesner and his colleagues

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Speaker 2: went into a preschool and they got forty kids in

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Speaker 2: one condition and forty kids in another experimental condition, and

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Speaker 2: they basically watched to see what would happen with a

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Speaker 2: specific activity that they were doing. So for the first

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Speaker 2: forty kids, they walked into the room and said, hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: we're going to do a painting activity. And all the

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Speaker 2: kids said, okay, fantastic. They remember these are preschoolers. They're

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Speaker 2: aged four, maybe five for the oldest kids, but around

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Speaker 2: four or five years of age. We're going to do

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Speaker 2: some painting, and then they said to these forty kids, all,

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Speaker 2: but we need to make sure that we don't make

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Speaker 2: any mess while we're painting, so you can hear, here

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Speaker 2: comes the structure. They with the first group took a

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Speaker 2: controlling approach. There was not a lot of autonomy involved.

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Speaker 2: And so they said, if we're going to paint, we

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Speaker 2: need to make sure that we don't get any painting

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Speaker 2: on our clothes. So let's put our smocks on so

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Speaker 2: that we don't get any pain on our clothes. And

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Speaker 2: we don't want to get any paint on the table either,

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Speaker 2: do we, And so all the kids are they're having fun,

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Speaker 2: like it's not hardcore authoritarian command and control. But they said,

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Speaker 2: let's get the cardboard out and let's put it underneath

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Speaker 2: our paper so that we don't paint off the paper

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Speaker 2: and onto the table, because the cardboard will soak up

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Speaker 2: any extra paint. And they said, we also need to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we don't mix the paint colors. So

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Speaker 2: the rules are that when you finish with one color,

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Speaker 2: you need to dip that paint brush in the water

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Speaker 2: and get all the paint out of it, and then

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Speaker 2: you can get the water off and then dip it

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Speaker 2: in the new paint color and keep on painting. So

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Speaker 2: they were quite directive in a gentle and kind way.

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Speaker 2: In this controlling condition. With the other forty kids on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the preschool center, they took a

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Speaker 2: totally different approach. They said, guys, we need to make

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Speaker 2: sure we're not making a big mess, don't we What

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Speaker 2: do you think we should do? And then in conversation

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Speaker 2: with the kids, the kids said, well, we can't get

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Speaker 2: pain on our clothes. And said, well, what do we

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Speaker 2: do so that we don't get pain on our clothes?

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Speaker 2: And the kid said, we've got to wear our paint smocks.

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Speaker 2: And they said, you're bad. And they said, is there

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Speaker 2: anything else we need to make sure we don't get

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Speaker 2: paint on? And the kids said, we can't get paint

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Speaker 2: on the table, and they said, well, how do we

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Speaker 2: protect the table? And the kids came up with a

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Speaker 2: solution to get the great big pieces of cardboard card

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Speaker 2: stock and put it underneath the paper. And they said,

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Speaker 2: is there anything else that we need to be careful

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Speaker 2: of when we're painting? And the kids said, yeah, we

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Speaker 2: don't want to mix the paint up. And they said, well,

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Speaker 2: how do we fix that, and the kids came up

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Speaker 2: with the solution. So in both cases, we've got adults

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Speaker 2: who are involved in a conversation with kids about creating structure.

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Speaker 2: But in one autonomy is being thwarted with adults who

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Speaker 2: are saying, you need to do it like this and

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Speaker 2: you need to do it like that, even though they're

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Speaker 2: doing it kindly. And then in the other group, you've

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Speaker 2: got this group of kids who are being guided to

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Speaker 2: the solutions as the parents or the adults, I should say,

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Speaker 2: just ask questions like is there anything else we need

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Speaker 2: to do? What else would be important? So the answers

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Speaker 2: are coming from inside the kids. Their autonomy is being supported,

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Speaker 2: and the control or the structure is also being developed,

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Speaker 2: but it's been developed as much as possible by the kids. Now,

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Speaker 2: what Kesner found in this study is that the kids

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Speaker 2: who were in the control group versus in the autonomy group,

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Speaker 2: once the painting was finished, they were observed for a

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Speaker 2: short period of time to see what they would do

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Speaker 2: with their free time before the activity complete was fully completed,

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Speaker 2: and the kids who were in the control group they

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Speaker 2: kind of stopped painting and looked for other things to do,

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Speaker 2: whereas the kids who had been in this supportive group,

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Speaker 2: they didn't want to stop painting, they were happy to

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Speaker 2: just do another painting. So their task persistence, their motivation

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Speaker 2: for the task was higher when they were involved, when

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Speaker 2: they had autonomy, when they had a sense of self

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Speaker 2: determination in terms of developing the structure. And that's really

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Speaker 2: what's at the heart of it. When something needs to

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Speaker 2: happen to the extent that we can with our kids,

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Speaker 2: are we going to be controlling about out how it happens,

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Speaker 2: or are we going to support their autonomy? Are we

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Speaker 2: going to explain here's the situation, what do you think

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Speaker 2: we should do? Or are we going to say, here's

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Speaker 2: the situation, now do this.

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Speaker 3: So I guess my point about giving them a few

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Speaker 3: options instead of multiple options is just like me being

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Speaker 3: in that craft room and having all of the mediums

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Speaker 3: available to me and feeling overwhelmed. When we've got really

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Speaker 3: young kids, providing them with a few options as opposed

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Speaker 3: to the whole wardrobe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You might say, it's pretty cold

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Speaker 2: outside because it's winter, so we've got some warm clothes

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Speaker 2: here and some warm clothes here, which ones do you

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Speaker 2: think will be best?

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Speaker 3: So what I'm hearing from you is that structure actually

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Speaker 3: underpins our children's ability to be able to exercise their

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Speaker 3: autonomy because they understand the rules and therefore they feel

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Speaker 3: like they've got a level of competence, yes, to be

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Speaker 3: able to follow through with what needs to happen.

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Speaker 2: And the beautiful thing about this process is it's relationship building,

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Speaker 2: so it supports all of their basic psychological needs. It

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Speaker 2: helps and to feel close and connected and understood and

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Speaker 2: seen and hurding valued. It helps them to feel like

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Speaker 2: life is predictable and they understand why things are happening

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Speaker 2: because they're involved in the process of developing the why

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Speaker 2: and how, and they get to have a voice that

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Speaker 2: autonomy is supported. I think it's a really important conversation

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Speaker 2: to have. That's really what the whole book is about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've tried to summarize two hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: pages in ten twelve.

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Speaker 3: I wish you had have done that before I read it.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you have. This is exciting that

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Speaker 2: you've read one of my books. Anyway, what do you

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Speaker 2: mean this is, I've read them all.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: I usually tease people when I give my presentations and

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Speaker 2: say that you like my shortest one what your child

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Speaker 2: needs from you, You know, the one that takes me to

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Speaker 2: for a long time, as it was the only one

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Speaker 2: that you'd ever read. But you have read them now

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Speaker 2: and I probably should stop saying that because it makes

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Speaker 2: it sound like you're not involved than you are, and

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Speaker 2: I love that you are. Thank you so much, Justin

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Speaker 2: Roll and our producer for making the podcast sound the

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Speaker 2: way it sounds. We also appreciate Craig Bruce, our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: If you want more about making your family happier, please

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Speaker 2: visit our website Happy families dot com dot au, or

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Speaker 2: have a copy of this fabuless book called The Parenting Revolution.

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Speaker 2: It by again by yours truely