1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: If you want to know what's happening on the local 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: political landscape, Katie Wolf has it covered on three sixty 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Every One is Listening Mixed one oh four point nine. Well, 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: as we know, estimates continue on this week and yesterday 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: the Police Minister was in the hot seat, with plenty 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: of questions asked of both the Minister herself and also 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: the Police Commissioner. Joining me on the line is the 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: Independent Member for Ara lew And, Robin Lambley. Good morning 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: to you, Robin. 10 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: Good morning Katie. 11 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Will Now Robin, the police portfolio was high on the 12 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: agenda yesterday with the real focus on those police numbers 13 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: and the attrition rate. I know that it was pretty 14 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: interesting information around the police retention at ninety five officers 15 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: leaving the force in the space of a year. Robin, 16 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: the figures sound concerning, but the Police Commissioner said the 17 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: commentary around this is well, it's a bit over exaggerated, 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: to paraphrase him saying that the rate of changing staff 19 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: in his organization had really barely changed. What was your 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: take on that rate of attrition and of people leaving, Well. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: Katie, pretty much all the bad news we've played down 22 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: as it has been over the last week and a half. 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: During budget estimates, you'll only get the good news out 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: of them usually, but look, ninety five police officers leaving. 25 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: That's a lot of people, and as the opposition said, 26 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: it's a lot of time and energy of money put 27 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: into keeping those people recruiting them. I asked the Police 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: Minister and Police Commissioner why they thought what they attributed 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: this high attrition rate too, And one of the questions 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: I specifically asked was the impact of the Constable Zachary 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: Rolf trial on police morale and the high attrition rate, 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: and they just completely shut me down. Well, the Minister 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: did not the Police Commissioner, they didn't want to talk 34 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: at about that at all. They just put it down 35 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: to people wanting to move into state to be with 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: their family, No evidence based facts backing that up at all. 37 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Robert, Why did they not want to talk about that? 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: Why do you think they didn't want to talk about that. 39 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: The Minister, I think was probably prepared to some extent 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: four questions on this subject, although we weren't asking any 41 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: for her to comment about the trial at all. It 42 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: was just the impact looking at the policies and procedures 43 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: and the operations of the police and how this major event, 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: the murder of Coleman J. Walker and the trial of 45 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: Comfortable Zachary Rolf, how it's impacted on the community and 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: in particular the police force. The Minister just shut it 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: down saying that it just wasn't the time and when 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: I asked her when would the time be right to 49 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: talk about this, she wouldn't provide that information. And either 50 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: so although we're reading about it in the paper, we're 51 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: hearing about it on the news, in budget estimates parliamentary 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: committee process, we cannot talk about something that has impacted 53 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: the whole of the Northern Territory and people want to 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: talk about. 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: Here, yes, And the concern really is that, you know, 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: the worry is that this is no matter how this 57 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: case goes, that it's going to have an impact on 58 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: the community, and it's going to have an impact on 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: the police force, no matter what the outcome is. And 60 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: no one's suggesting that we go into what the outcome 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: could be or the hypotheticals, but at the end of 62 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: the day, it's going to have an impact. 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: It's the elephant in the room. And I said that 64 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: in Budget Estimates hearings yesterday I said, it's the elephant 65 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: in the room that we need to talk about. It 66 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 2: has impacted the police service, morale, attrition rates, god knows 67 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: what else. And that's what budget estimates is all about. 68 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: It's an opportunity to talk about the processes, the policies, 69 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: the expenditure of government, what's going on inside government. And 70 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: I reminded the Minister whether she chooses to use it 71 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: or not as another thing, but we also are protected 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: by parliamentary privilege. We can talk about these difficult issues 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: in air fairly frank way without it impacting on the 74 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: outcome of the trial. Teritines want to know what's going on, 75 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: and the Police minister shut it all down. 76 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: Now, Rob and I know that you asked quite a 77 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: lot of questions about the rising crime in locations like 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: Alice Springs and Tenant Creek and other areas. Do you 79 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: feel confident that enough is being done in locations like 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: Alice Springs to try and curb the serious issues that 81 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: we are seeing and that we've seen in recent times. 82 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: Look, I sat there, Katie, listening to the Police Commissioner 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: and the Minister the police, and I just couldn't accept 84 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 2: their zero emotion around what's going on in the territory. 85 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: They were emotionless about the fact that we're all facing 86 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: an escalation of crime, we're all being subjected to crime 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: at a level that we shouldn't be. They expressed no 88 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: emotion and really did not satisfy me at all as 89 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: to what they're doing to try and protect us. They 90 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: did identify Tenant Creek and Alice Springs as crime hotspots. 91 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: The Police commissioner called it that called them hotspots, and 92 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: then sort of gave the usual list of things that 93 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: they're doing. But you know, it is outrageous, it's terrible, 94 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: it's unacceptable, and you've got the Police Minister and the 95 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: Police commissioner're talking about it like it's making a sandwich 96 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: or something. 97 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: You know, Robin, I know that you sort of said that. 98 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: I know that you did also ask some questions, so 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: you had some questioning around how the commissioner is managing 100 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: that day to day police and also the role of 101 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: territory controller, so overseeing the Howard Springs facility and also 102 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: the borders, amongst other things. Did the commissioner indicate the 103 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: level of time that it takes to sort of manage 104 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: both of those roles. 105 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: Yes, he did. My question was, on top of your 106 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: enormous responsibilities to keep the Northern Territory safe from crime 107 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: and antisocial behavior, you now have this enormous other role 108 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: called the Territory Controller role, which is responsible for coordinating 109 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: basically the whole COVID. Response I said, I asked him 110 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: how much of your time, percentage wise, is taken up 111 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 2: as the Territory controller and he said at least fifty percent. 112 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: And I said, so, isn't this isn't this too hard? Like, 113 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: isn't this too much for you to have both these roles? 114 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 2: At what point do you say enough is enough? I 115 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: can't do it all? And he refuted that, and he said, 116 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: I am more than capable of doing both roles. I 117 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: have a great team around me. It's not a problem. Well, 118 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: I think it is a problem. And I think, and 119 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: I maintained in last estimates in December early December last year, 120 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: that the role of him being the Territory Controller of 121 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: COVID has taken him away from his primary duty, in 122 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: my opinion, and that is to keep us safe from 123 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: crime and to fight crime, reduced crime. Because during that 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: time he's been in that job, we've seen an escalation 125 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: of crime right across the Northern territory. 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: I guess the argument from the government, Robin, would be 127 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: that there's been record investment into the police portfolio, and 128 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: you know they've got they've got a great police force 129 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: who are really very capable, and that he's obviously got 130 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: other people in those deputy commissioner roles and also are 131 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: those commander roles who are more than capable of managing 132 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: the day to day policing. Is that adequate in your opinion? 133 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: Not really? I mean, you know, I think that you know, 134 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: we all know that the police do a fabulous job, 135 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: the best that they possibly can. But it's also about policy, 136 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: the policy and the legislation that they're given to do 137 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: their job, and I think that's where the government's letting 138 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: them down. I think I don't think the government has 139 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: been on top of alcohol policy. I think that the 140 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: government has been all over the place on youth justice. 141 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: I think they're scrambling around. The police are at the 142 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: mercy of a government that's really out of their depth 143 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: when it comes to trying to address crime. They're good 144 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: at other things this government that they're certainly not good 145 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: at crime. 146 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: Now, Robin, speaking of some of that legislation and some 147 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: of the changes that have been put in place youth bail. 148 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: It was and you know, some of the changes to 149 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: the youth bail laws were also on the agenda. As 150 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: I understand it was. There much detail provided around the bail, 151 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: the new youth bail laws and will are they having 152 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: an impact? 153 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: No, there wasn't. I think it's early days. I didn't 154 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: hear a lot of information around that. There was a 155 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: lot of discussion around the fact that we're out of 156 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: the biosecurity you know, the COVID biosecurity measures have been lifted. 157 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: That there was a surge, for example, domestic violence after that, 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: after people came out of lockdown. Domestic violence numbers went 159 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: from about sixty per day across the Northern Territory, they 160 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: rose to up to one hundred per day after they 161 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: were lifted. And we're told now that they're sort of 162 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: lowering back to the pre COVID level. But no, look, 163 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: I don't think they've got much data around that the 164 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 2: impact of the changes to the bar legislation that was 165 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: only put through really about six weeks ago, so it 166 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: is early days. But it was a funny day. I 167 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: wasn't less feeling overly confident or well informed. 168 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: Now just finally, and you might not have a huge 169 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: amount of info on this, but it is one of 170 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: the one of the big stories that the ABC is 171 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: reporting on IBC News that there was thousands of speeding 172 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: fines that are going to be withdrawn because of an 173 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: error in the way that speed detectors were calibrated that 174 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: was revealed in estimates yesterday by the Police Commissioner. Do 175 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: you have much detail in this space? 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: No. The only detail that was interesting to me is 177 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: that if you've already paid your fine, then it's too late. 178 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: You've taken responsibility for speeding effectively, and you won't be 179 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: getting your money back even if the fine was the 180 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 2: speed was incorrectly measured. What by paying it, you've accepted 181 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: faults and that's the end of it. You're not getting 182 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: your money bak, no way. 183 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: So, have you've already paid it, you don't get your 184 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: money back? 185 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: Correct? Well, Robin, we will speed. 186 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Well, we will definitely be following that up because I 187 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: tell you what, you know, when you get a speeding fine, 188 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: you just assume you just sort of go, oh goodness, me, 189 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: I didn't think I was speeding, but obviously I was. 190 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 1: You know, I've received the fine, so I'm going to 191 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: have to pay it. 192 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 2: Precisely. And they're they're relying on the goodwill and the 193 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: good people of the Northern Territory who think like you do, Katie, 194 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: that they've paid their fine and life goes on too late, baby. 195 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: Well, Robin Lamley, I'm going to see what else we 196 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: can find out about this this morning. I reckon people 197 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: are going to be irate. It's always good to catch 198 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: up with you. Will catch up with you again on 199 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: Friday for. 200 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: The week that was looking forward to it, Katie. 201 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: Good on your Robin. Thank you. That is the independent 202 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: member for our lun They're Robin Lamley.