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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers now.

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Speaker 2: At twelve year at the moment, she's driving us up

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Speaker 2: the wall. She's the fifth one. We should know how

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Speaker 2: to deal with the twelve year old that drives up

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Speaker 2: the wall. But now, but no matter how much we

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Speaker 2: go through this, it still is challenging.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Gooda. This is doctor Justin Colson with a special guest

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Speaker 2: in the Happy Families podcast studio. Today, I'm having a

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Speaker 2: random conversation with the guy who's doing some renovations on

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Speaker 2: our bathroom. His name is Carl, and Carl starts telling

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Speaker 2: me that he was looking for a podcast to listen to.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to figure out what he could do about his

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Speaker 2: fifteen year old who's giving him some grief, and started

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Speaker 2: googling and searching in Spotify for a podcast about pairing,

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Speaker 2: and then realized that he was doing some work for

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Speaker 2: a guy who writes books about it. And so Carl

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Speaker 2: found my name in Spotify, and instead of listening to

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Speaker 2: the Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families podcast, he found an

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Speaker 2: interview that I did with a Fatherhood podcast about a

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Speaker 2: year ago on discipline and punishment. So he's telling me

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Speaker 2: this story, and I thought, instead of talking with Kylie

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Speaker 2: today about the topic we were going to discuss, it

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Speaker 2: would be fun to talk to Carl about what he's

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Speaker 2: learning about discipline and punishment and the challenge that it

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Speaker 2: is of raising kids who have their own agendas and

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Speaker 2: don't want to do what mum and dad say. So, Carl,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the Happy Families podcast that you've never listened

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Speaker 2: to before.

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Speaker 3: Thank you great to be here.

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Speaker 2: Karl sitting in the seat opposite me looking like he's

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Speaker 2: so scared that he might just do.

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Speaker 3: A little week.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I should have said that or not. Anyway, So, Carl,

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Speaker 2: my first podcast, So tell us a bit about your

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Speaker 2: family before we dive into the serious problem solving that

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Speaker 2: we need to do.

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Speaker 3: So. Married for twenty better around twenty years. Four children.

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Speaker 3: We had four children under five years old at the start,

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Speaker 3: so we had kids very quickly. Yeah, and we've not

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Speaker 3: had any kids since then, so we've got still got

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Speaker 3: four kids.

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Speaker 2: Okay. And something that stunned me when I was having

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Speaker 2: a chat with you, because you're a picture of health.

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Speaker 2: I actually went to swat you in the stomach and

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Speaker 2: I almost hurt my hand it was so rock hard.

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Speaker 2: But you're a cancer survivor.

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Speaker 3: Yes, true, I had. I had stage three slash stage

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Speaker 3: four lymphoma and five months of chemotherapy like high dose chemotherapy.

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Speaker 3: It's called dose adjusted EPOCH for those that know the

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Speaker 3: technical terms. And I was in hospital for quite a

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Speaker 3: while and then or maybe three four weeks in hospital,

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Speaker 3: and then I was able to go home and just

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Speaker 3: come in for chemotherapy treatments from time to time. And

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Speaker 3: you go, you go three three weeks stages of chemotherapy.

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Speaker 2: So when you get a stage three slash stage four

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Speaker 2: diagnosis of lymphoma, prognosis is poor. There's no such things.

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Speaker 3: As yeah, I was given a prognosis of fifty to

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Speaker 3: fifty chants of living two years.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Anything beyond that, you're doing well?

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Speaker 2: So how long ago was that?

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Speaker 3: That would be three to four years ago? Now, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so I'm doing well as far as things go, or.

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Speaker 2: Basically I'm stilling your abs.

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Speaker 3: Are you doing I'm doing really well? Yeah? So so yeah,

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Speaker 3: thanks be to the heavens above. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So Carl, let's talk about this challenge with one of

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Speaker 2: your kids fifteen years old. They're all obviously clumped pretty

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Speaker 2: closely together. Is this your eldest?

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Speaker 3: Oh, this is my third?

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Speaker 2: Okay, right, so you've been through.

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Speaker 3: So they're all teenagers now, they're eighteen to thirteen. Now

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Speaker 3: I've got that five year span. So the youngest is

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Speaker 3: thirteen and the oldest is eighteen.

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Speaker 2: And dealing with challenging teens therefore is not new to you.

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Speaker 2: You've had I've had two. I've been through two that

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Speaker 2: have now seventeen eighteen. So they've been through this stage.

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Speaker 2: Even though you've been there, it's still hard. Yes, Like

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Speaker 2: and Kylie and I have this all the time. We've

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Speaker 2: got six kids. But even though we're dealing with like

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Speaker 2: a twelve year at the moment, she's driving us up

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Speaker 2: the wall. Yep, but we've done this. She's the fifth one.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't had to deal with the twelve year old

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Speaker 2: that drives up the wall. But now but absolutely doing

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Speaker 2: our head In fact, the text message that you sent

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Speaker 2: me on your way to do this bathroom today was

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Speaker 2: my fifteen year old is doing my head in at

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Speaker 2: the moment, no matter how end quote and yeah, no

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Speaker 2: matter how much we go through this it still is challenging.

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Speaker 2: Let's see the scenario yesterday.

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Speaker 3: So yesterday, my fifteen year old refused to go to school.

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Speaker 2: Is this a normal thing?

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Speaker 3: Time to time? It's shocky kids don't want to go

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Speaker 3: to school in.

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Speaker 2: The same way that some adults sometimes don't want to.

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Speaker 3: Go to Well, I want to go to work. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: So he refused to go to school even though he

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Speaker 3: wasn't sick.

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Speaker 2: But it's not like it's part of a recurring pattern

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Speaker 2: with high levels of anxiety and school refused along that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: It's no, not generally. I mean, every kid's different and

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Speaker 3: has their different you know, rejection of things or rebellion.

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Speaker 3: But you know, nothing unusual. Just kid, you know, doesn't

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Speaker 3: want to go to school, might be have an exam

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Speaker 3: on or something, or doesn't have many friends you'd like

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Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, normal typical teenage stuff. Nothing unusual. Yep.

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Speaker 3: So refuse to go to school. My wife therefore has

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Speaker 3: to manage him at home the whole day. But you're

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Speaker 3: at work because I'm at work, and she's she's mum,

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Speaker 3: wife's stay at home mum. So by the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, my wife's had enough of him because he's

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Speaker 3: been home all day. She's got to fight him off YouTube,

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Speaker 3: she's got to fight him off his device. So she's

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Speaker 3: got to fight him off his because she doesn't want

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Speaker 3: to reward him wile he's staying over fro school. I're

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Speaker 3: going to stay from school. You need to go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: Then if you're sick, you need to do this or that.

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Speaker 2: So she's haid, let's just pause on that for a

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Speaker 2: sec though, because he's not sick, and he's not pretending

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Speaker 2: to he sick. He just doesn't want to go to school.

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Speaker 3: He did have a sleep, they didn't notice he fell

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Speaker 3: asleep for a little while. But he's not sick enough

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Speaker 3: that he should have stayed home from school.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but there's this concept that a lot of parents

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Speaker 2: will really stick to. And your wife's done this where

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Speaker 2: she said, well, I don't want staying at home to

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Speaker 2: become so positive, such a good experience that you're going

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Speaker 2: to want to do this all the time. Because you're

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Speaker 2: only fifteen. You're supposed to be at school, and if

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Speaker 2: you're having a good time at home today, you might

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Speaker 2: want to do it again. They were going to have

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Speaker 2: a big problem. Absolutely, I'm going to jump in before

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Speaker 2: you tell me the rest of the scenario and suggest

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Speaker 2: that for the most part that fear is unfounded. Which

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Speaker 2: fear the fear that we're going to be rewarding our child.

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Speaker 2: Oh if our childs are allowed to stay at home

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Speaker 2: and have fun for a day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I really encourage parents to let their kids

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Speaker 2: have a mental health day every now and again. Teachers

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Speaker 2: hate me for saying it, but every now and again,

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Speaker 2: I'll call this a mental health day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But obviously your wife didn't feel quite the same way.

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Speaker 2: She was like, he can't have a good day today,

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Speaker 2: he has to have a horrible day. He has to

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Speaker 2: stay in bed.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't not necessarily, like I inverted commas a horrible day,

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Speaker 3: but I guess she didn't want him feeling like this

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Speaker 3: was like a necessarily like repeatable, appropriate way to behave

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Speaker 3: when you should should be at school. Yeah. So, but

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Speaker 3: now that you've made your point, you're enlightening me in

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Speaker 3: saying that, and that's probably a good way to put

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Speaker 3: this would be a mental health day, yeah for him.

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Speaker 2: And if you actually call it a treat, then all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, your child's not going well. I need

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Speaker 2: a treat every day because you don't get treats every day.

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Speaker 2: You have treats every so often. True, and it feels

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Speaker 2: true a little bit different.

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Speaker 3: And as a person myself, as an adult and known

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Speaker 3: through what I've been through, I need mental health days,

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Speaker 3: you know, from work or from.

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Speaker 2: Whatever you're involved fifteen year olds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you need from fifteen year olds whatever. So

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Speaker 3: I think we all need that, and it's good that

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Speaker 3: mental health is becoming a non taboo topic these days.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So we moved to afternoon, You get home and

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Speaker 2: what happens?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I didn't come home. I finished work, and

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Speaker 3: my wife said, the boys have basketball at ten past

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Speaker 3: five at the basketball stadium. So Josh wants to play Josh,

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Speaker 3: I've named him now, sorry sorry Josh. And my wife says,

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Speaker 3: but I don't want to take him because I don't

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Speaker 3: want to reward him with a cookie after he's stayed

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Speaker 3: home all day and he should have gone to school,

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Speaker 3: and he's gone against my wishes. So I don't want

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Speaker 3: to reward him with basketball.

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Speaker 2: Right then, it was my.

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Speaker 3: Turn to have the conversation.

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Speaker 2: After the break. We're going to find out what the

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Speaker 2: right thing to do is when your child have the

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Speaker 2: day off and then wants to go and play basketball

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Speaker 2: because he's not sick. The unhealthy, unhelpful boy code that

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Speaker 2: is rampant, and our children's school and social environments encourages

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Speaker 2: some persistent and dangerous idea is about what it means

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Speaker 2: to be mailed. But the Building Better Boys webinar is

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Speaker 2: here to help unpack these cultural ideas and help guide

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Speaker 2: our boys to be brilliant, beautiful, and even better. Building

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Speaker 2: Better Boys is available today online at Happy Families dot

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Speaker 2: com dot au. It's the Happy Family's podcast, the podcast

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Speaker 2: for the typepod parent who just wants answers now, So

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Speaker 2: let's get some answers. What happened, Carl when your wife said,

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Speaker 2: I don't want him to go and have fun tonight

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Speaker 2: because he had the day off school and he wasn't sick,

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Speaker 2: so therefore he should have been at school. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to reward him. How did that play out?

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Speaker 3: I understood where my wife was coming from. She's annoyed,

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Speaker 3: she's tired, she's had enough of him. He's done her

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Speaker 3: head in for the day, so she's had enough, she's

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Speaker 3: had a gutful. So I hadn't I'd been at work

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Speaker 3: all day, so I hadn't been dealing with him constantly,

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Speaker 3: so I had a bit more energy and a bit

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Speaker 3: more I guess emotional tolerance for him and where he

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Speaker 3: was at. So I said to her, I really think

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Speaker 3: he needs basketball because part of the reason he's refused

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Speaker 3: to go to school is for whatever reason, right with

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Speaker 3: mental health day, doesn't want to go for whatever reason.

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Speaker 3: So I said, I think him playing basketball and actually

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Speaker 3: help him want to go to school tomorrow because it's

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Speaker 3: going to get the dope meine going. It's going to

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Speaker 3: get the exercise happening, get the adrenaline rolling. He's going

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Speaker 3: to feel good after the game, He's going to get tired,

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Speaker 3: he'll sleep better, and he'll probably be more likely want

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Speaker 3: to go to school tomorrow. So I said, look, I

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Speaker 3: get where you're coming from. I don't want to give

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Speaker 3: him the cookie either. I don't think he should be

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Speaker 3: rewarded for bad behavior if we could consider this bad behavior,

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Speaker 3: but it may not have been bad behavior, might have

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Speaker 3: just been the mental health day. And so I said,

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Speaker 3: I think we should take him to basketball and let

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Speaker 3: him play. And he did. So he played basketball.

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Speaker 2: Did he have a cracking game because he was well rested.

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Speaker 3: I think he did pretty good.

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Speaker 2: So what happens after basketball? So after basketball we go

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Speaker 2: to KFC and so now the punishment kicks in.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, saturate of fats. So after dinner we had

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Speaker 3: our family discussion which revolved around some different topics. But

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Speaker 3: I actually walked out. So my son was doing my

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Speaker 3: head in after KFC and we had a family discussion

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Speaker 3: after dinner, and I got frustrated with him about the

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Speaker 3: discussion we were having, and I stormed off like I

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Speaker 3: would not storm off, Like, so you've.

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Speaker 2: Gone from being the patient dad, Yes, afterwards, because you've

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Speaker 2: got all that energy. Now he's fatigued me. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: this is the thing with teenager. In fact, this is

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Speaker 2: the thing with arguments. Generally, the person with the highest

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Speaker 2: energy will usually win. Now that's not a very scientific

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Speaker 2: sort of way of doing it, but we can look

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Speaker 2: at energy in a couple of different ways. We can

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Speaker 2: look at energy from a high capacity, like as in

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Speaker 2: I'm explosive. In other words, if I dominate you with

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Speaker 2: my really big energy and I'm getting super mad at things,

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Speaker 2: my higher energy, my bigger size, whatever it is, I

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Speaker 2: can absolutely win because big energy wins. But I can

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Speaker 2: also win as a fifteen year old up against dad

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Speaker 2: wearing him down by just incessantly But what about?

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Speaker 3: But what about?

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Speaker 2: But that's unfair.

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Speaker 3: But this but which is kind of what happened in

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Speaker 3: the morning, which is pretty much was the conversation after dinner.

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Speaker 3: This is unfair what you asked me to do, you know,

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Speaker 3: a conversation around technology use and using your iPhone and stuff.

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Speaker 3: So the conversation wore me down because he wouldn't agree

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Speaker 3: with our what we're asking of their technology use. And

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Speaker 3: after like I don't know, half an hour, I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm done. I just gone up. I just gone up

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Speaker 3: and walked to my car. And I felt wrong walking

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Speaker 3: to my car. I did feel I was doing the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing, right, Like I felt like I was taking

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Speaker 3: my bat and ball and going home. Ah, okay, a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit is that because you felt like you just need

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Speaker 2: to get a solution.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure why I felt I was doing the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing, but I felt I could have handled the

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Speaker 3: situation better son then just getting up and walking off.

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Speaker 3: So the real question didn't say anything. I just left.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've only got a couple of minutes to

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Speaker 2: wrap this up, and we do need to get some answers.

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Speaker 2: So there are probably three questions that we need to

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Speaker 2: be able to resolve here for any parent who's going

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Speaker 2: through this ongoing tension, conflict and fussing this that we

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Speaker 2: have with kids who are digging in rather than hearing

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Speaker 2: what we've got to say. The first one, you've used

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Speaker 2: the term bad behavior a couple of times. Is he

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Speaker 2: behaving badly? So we need to we need to just

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Speaker 2: address that. The second one that we need to address

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Speaker 2: Carl is is it appropriate to allow him to go

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Speaker 2: and play basketball when he's had a day off even

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Speaker 2: though having a day off was against your wishes? And

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Speaker 2: the third issue is can dad walk away? Is it

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Speaker 2: okay for a parent to walk away when a conversation

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Speaker 2: is not going anywhere? Does that make it so that

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Speaker 2: the kid has won? So that the child walks away

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Speaker 2: thinking all I have to do is be belligerent, All

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Speaker 2: I have to do is be persistent. All I've got

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Speaker 2: to do is have more fortitude than my parents, and

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Speaker 2: I can win and get whatever I want. I can

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Speaker 2: have my way to answer these questions, the first thing

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Speaker 2: that we have to work out is what is our philosophy?

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Speaker 2: What is our foundation or belief about our children's character?

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Speaker 2: Are our children out, especially our teenagers. Are they abut

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Speaker 2: to put one over us? Or do they actually want

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Speaker 2: to do the right thing? Do they want to grow

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Speaker 2: and learn and develop in positive ways and have good

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Speaker 2: relationships with us? What's your underlying philosophy?

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Speaker 3: I think definitely. My son's not belligerent and wants to

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Speaker 3: be a bad person right a one hundred percent. He's

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Speaker 3: in that stage where he's having difficulty finding out how

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Speaker 3: to achieve that. Of course, our other two children we've

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Speaker 3: been through the same stage. Obviously a little bit different

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Speaker 3: because all kids are different, but we've had this same

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Speaker 3: twelve months of difficulty with our first son where it

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Speaker 3: was just a virtually unbearable and then with our daughter,

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Speaker 3: same thing. Oh man, like twelve months of virchu do unbearable.

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Speaker 3: But then they come up the other side and they're fantastic, fantastic.

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Speaker 3: So now this and so my child, So this fifteen

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Speaker 3: year old is in right in the middle of it

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 2: And the critical thing here that you've highlighted is what

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Speaker 2: research shows as well, and that is that our children

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Speaker 2: are not out to get us. Absolutely a children who's

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Speaker 2: a good kid, they're not only they're good kids, but

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Speaker 2: they want good relationships. They want but they also the

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Speaker 2: word that I always use is that they're really clumsy

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Speaker 2: in the way they try to achieve their ends because

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Speaker 2: they kind of well, they just don't think things through

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Speaker 2: too well.

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Speaker 3: And he wants to be loved. Children want to be loved.

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Speaker 3: They want to be accepted and loved, and.

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Speaker 2: So they want to be able to make their own choices.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes the way they go around getting that love

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Speaker 3: is not the way we would like them to go

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they want that autonomy. The second thing is is

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Speaker 2: it okay to reward them with the night out of

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Speaker 2: basketball when they've had a day off and they shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have had it. And I believe that the two things

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Speaker 2: are essentially unrelated. Basketball has got nothing to do with school.

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Speaker 2: Not wanting to go to school is for a mental

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Speaker 2: health day, or because there's friendship challenges, because there's abcd

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Speaker 2: ORF happening, or all of those happening, and therefore your

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Speaker 2: child's saying I just don't think I can face it today.

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Speaker 2: But basketball is for him an outlet. It's an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to be social, it's an opportunity to be active, and

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Speaker 2: this is probably what he needs more than anything big

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Speaker 2: tick for Carl, Thank you look at that now. The

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Speaker 2: third question is do you walk away when the discussion

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Speaker 2: later on, as you try to talk things through if

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Speaker 2: it's not going anywhere, do you try to walk away

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Speaker 2: or do you walk away or do you try to

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Speaker 2: get to a solution. The biggest problem that parents have

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Speaker 2: when they're dealing with children who are being fussy, challenging, difficult, whatever,

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Speaker 2: is that we feel like it's our job. Our ego

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Speaker 2: gets in the way and we feel like we need

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Speaker 2: to fix the situation and we need to fix our child,

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Speaker 2: and so we stay in a conversation that is not

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Speaker 2: going anywhere. As we do that, there's a phrase that

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Speaker 2: I use all the time. High emotions, low intelligence. We

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Speaker 2: become more emotional, and so do they. Intelligence goes out

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Speaker 2: the window. We start acting with the lower part of

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Speaker 2: our brain rather than the prefrontal cortex, the thinking part

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Speaker 2: of our brain. And in the end, people get offended.

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Speaker 2: People get upset, People say things that they don't mean

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Speaker 2: because in the moment they think that they're right, and

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Speaker 2: later on they think, oh, my goodness, I can't believe

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Speaker 2: that I said that the best thing we can do

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Speaker 2: is to walk away and say this isn't finished, but

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Speaker 2: this is also not productive right now. It's not good

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Speaker 2: for our relationship to continue. We'll work it out when

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Speaker 2: we've had a good night's sleep. Don't forget. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's just played a back game of basketball. It's the

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Speaker 2: end of the day. You've been working all day. Everyone's tired.

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Speaker 2: Relationships and emotions are strained anyway, that's not a good

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Speaker 2: time to have a conversation. Fix it on the weekend,

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Speaker 2: or fix it tomorrow morning, or just give them space

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Speaker 2: so that they can tap back into the character that

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Speaker 2: they have at their foundation. That is, I want to

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Speaker 2: have good relationships with the people that I love if.

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Speaker 3: I have my time over. I think what you're saying

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Speaker 3: is right. I should have just said, hey, look this conversations,

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Speaker 3: we're not really getting anywhere. We're agreeing to disagree at

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Speaker 3: the moment. Let's just call the night and let's go home.

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Speaker 3: If I'd ended on that note, rather than just walking

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Speaker 3: out without saying a word, I think that would have

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Speaker 3: been a better way to future. That probably why I

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Speaker 3: felt a little bit like I felt a little bit

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Speaker 3: I didn't handle the situation as good as I could have.

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Speaker 3: I just think walking away is better than having a

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Speaker 3: big blow up.

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Speaker 2: But if you can walk away with those three most

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Speaker 2: important words as well, this isn't going anywhere. We need

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Speaker 2: to wrap it up. And then you say those three words,

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Speaker 2: not I love you, it's the words that come after that,

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Speaker 2: no matter what. So when you say to your kid,

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Speaker 2: this isn't working, but I love you no matter what,

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Speaker 2: and then you walk away, totally different scenario for curiosity's sake.

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Speaker 2: The next day, which is today, how did he wake up?

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Speaker 2: How was the family feeling so happy?

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Speaker 3: Ending to the story, So my wife said to me

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Speaker 3: this morning as I left for work, Josh's a different

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Speaker 3: child today. He's ready for school early. He's in a

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Speaker 3: good mood and he's ready and we're in to go

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Speaker 3: to school. And so I thought that was fantastic. I

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Speaker 3: thought we made the right decision. And my wife and

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Speaker 3: I made a joint decision for it wasn't I didn't

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Speaker 3: like override her to take into basketball and say you're

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Speaker 3: being silly, you know, we just we spoke about it

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Speaker 3: and we both agreed, yeah, the basketball would be a

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Speaker 3: good thing to do. And it all worked out well.

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Speaker 3: I think it helped him get in a good mental

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Speaker 3: state for the next day.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. That was fun.

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Speaker 2: That was a bit random. I've never had a builder

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Speaker 2: on the podcast before. If you'd like more IFO about

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Speaker 2: making your family happy, please visit us at Happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot IU. Tomorrow back with another big podcast,

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Speaker 2: talking about embracing a sleep divorce. What happens when couples

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Speaker 2: decide to sleep in separate beds? Are there, risks, are there? Rewards?

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Speaker 2: And then on Thursday it's book Club