1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Let's get into it because joining me on the line 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: right now is the Member for our Lun, the Independent 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Member for Our Lun, Robin Lamley. 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Robin, Good morning Katie, Robin. 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: It has been an interesting time, to say the least, 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: as budget estimates have sat and well, last night the 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: ABC revealed the legal fees paid by the Northern Territory 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: government around the payout to Jamie Chalker. So just the 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: legal fees were almost seventeen grand sixteen eight hundred and 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: seventy three dollars. In fact, that's not the payout amount, 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: the Chief Minister saying that's confidential, that's just the legal fees. 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: Robin. 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: What do you make of the fact that nobody could 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: sort of get that answer throughout the estimates process, but 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: the media has been able to get a hold of it. 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 3: Well, I hadn't heard that, Katie, So that's fascinating. What 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 3: we saw yesterday was intriguing. We had the Attorney General 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 3: Chancey Peig before us for most of the day and 19 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 3: I don't think he got the memo I deny it 20 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: and deny lie, lie lie, because he was more forthcoming 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 3: than lawl Warden and files put together on the whole 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 3: background and details of the Chalker case. What he revealed 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 3: was something that hadn't been revealed before in endemates, and 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 3: that is that the Attorney General's Department used an outside 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 3: solicitor to provide legal assistance to Kate Warden, Minister for 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 3: Police and the Chief Minister regarding the Chalker case. So 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 3: that certainly wasn't provided by any of the others. And 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 3: then that led to what legal agency or business did 29 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 3: they use And I can't remember the name, and now 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: we're being told to costs. So I don't think my 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: hunches at the Attorney General probably wasn't meant to reveal 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: that information, but he did. And that's very politically, very 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: interesting in itself that the Chancey Pake would decide to 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 3: do that, almost inconsistent with his more senior colleagues or 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 3: other colleagues. 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: Robin, what do you think that means? 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: You know, the fact that they used an outside legal 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: service to get that support. 39 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: So we were told yesterday and this was a revelation 40 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: to me too. I've never had much to do with 41 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: the Department of Justice, but the Solicitor for the Northern 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 3: Territory commonly acts as what they called a conduit by 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: providing ministers and other senior bureaucrats with legal advice from 44 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: outside the department. So they basically set it up for 45 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 3: ministers and people that might need legal representation or advice 46 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 3: if they can't provide it themselves. 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that is I mean, that's I'm fascinating. 48 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: It's just sort of just trying to wrap my head 49 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: around and I suppose and what it all means. And 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, the whole situation around the payout 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: to the former police commissioner has been unbelievable really to 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: watch in budget estimates and that lack of information forthcoming. 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: The Chief Minister a little bit more open when we 54 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: spoke to her on the show yesterday and saying that 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is not going to come out of 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: the police operating budget. It comes out of their HR 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: budget and should there be a shortfall that they would 58 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: be prepared to do a Treasurer's advance to top that up. 59 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: But there is no denying Robin that you know, this 60 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: is a situation where we are paying for a bungle 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: which has been made by the Chief Minister and the 62 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: Minister for Police. 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: No doubt, Katie and some my perspective. Sitting in estimates 64 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: throughout all of last week and this week, each minister 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: gave a slightly different story. We started off with Manison, 66 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: who wouldn't say anything, basically shut down, wasn't forthcoming at all, 67 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: pretty much the same with Lawla. Lawla then implied that 68 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: it was the payout to talk or was coming out 69 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: of the police budget. Then the Police Minister said, well, 70 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: she didn't know how much it was, wasn't really clear 71 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: or didn't provide any clarification on what that looked like 72 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: exactly where or how it was like see no evil here, 73 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: no evil speak no evil. I mean, you know, it 74 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: was just ridiculous and very very offensive, Katie, when you're 75 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: sitting before ministers in an a parliamentary committee context and 76 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 3: it's the only real opportunity you have to fire endless 77 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: questions at them and they're essentially lying to you or 78 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 3: not telling you the truth. No matter how whatever way 79 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: you want to couch it. It is offensive to us 80 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: and it's offensive to territorians. And I think that this 81 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: incident has really scarred this government because you know, we 82 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: know that this whole business with Chalker was triggered by 83 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 3: a letter that the Chief Minister sent to Chalker which 84 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 3: was apparently allegedly factually incorrect. And you know, the consequence 85 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 3: has been obviously a huge payout or a significant payout, 86 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: and we have no idea of the size of it. 87 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: But it's been a comedy of errors and at the 88 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: expense of all Territorians and it's just not on and 89 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: the files to shut down, not answer questions, Warden, Lawla 90 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 3: and Manison to be in on it all and take 91 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: to just dribble us a bit is really quite offensive. 92 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been really disappointing, to say the least watching 93 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: it all unfold. I think in estimates, Rob and I 94 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: do want to ask there were some pretty interesting revelations 95 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: around corrections yesterday and the watch house in Darwin being 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: used to hold prisoners. What did you learn in terms 97 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: of the number of prisoners that are being held in 98 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: the Darwen watch House currently. 99 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 3: Well, what we were told is that right across the 100 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: five prisons in the Northern Territory they're basically all at 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 3: capacities and the capacity, of course over the years has 102 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: been expanded and expanded, particularly in the Darwin Prison and 103 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: the Alice Springs Prison. But things are so bad in 104 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 3: Darwin that they've been using the Darwin Police Watchhouse for 105 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: about the last six months to house forty prisoners. Now 106 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: this is a watchhouse, it's not set up to be 107 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 3: a prison, and what we heard yesterday is that because 108 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: it's not set up suitably with sufficient amenities showers, toilets, 109 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: the staff to prisoner ratio is hideously high. So therefore 110 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: the expense of running this mini little prison in the 111 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: Darwin Watchhouse, which is meant to expire in July but 112 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: it probably won't, has been ridiculously high. So another very 113 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: poor indictment on the government. I mean they've sat back 114 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: in allowed crime to escalate, and of course we all 115 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: know that more crime equals more prisoners, but the government 116 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: has failed to plan more prisons. 117 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: And robin so so forty prisoners currently being held in 118 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: the Darwin Watchhouse. So right in the city we've got 119 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: forty prisoners in there. Do we know how many correction 120 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: staff are there to look after them? 121 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 3: So it works out to be over a thirty eight 122 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: hour week. I did the sums. It's about forty staff 123 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: that need to be there over a thirty eight hour 124 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: period for forty forty prisoners, which is just ridiculous. It's 125 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: so inofficial and expensive to run that robin. 126 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: How are they feeding them? 127 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: And how are they if there's not all the facilities 128 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: there that are required, what are they doing well? 129 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: That came up too, I mean they don't have the 130 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: facilities there like they do in the prisons to feed them. 131 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: So the food's being brought in and at one point 132 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 3: the Corrections commissioners said that they get supplementary food packs 133 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: and I thought, the minister, what's that and he said that, 134 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: you know, they get these prisoners that are generally low 135 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: security I used to eating a bit more than the 136 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: other prisoners, so they get a little bit of extra 137 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: food in some sort of supplementary food pack. But look, 138 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 3: the whole prison system in the Northern Territory you could 139 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: only described as being in crisis. There are thirty one 140 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 3: vacant positions custodial officer positions in Alice Springs, which is 141 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: a significant shortage and it really you really have to 142 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: question the risk for prisoners and staff working under those conditions. 143 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 3: The staff shortage is really really acute and serious, and 144 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: although there was a lot of talk about things that 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: they're doing to try and address this, you can only 146 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: be left wondering just what the hell is going on? 147 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: It's just a mess. It is truly a big, big mess, 148 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: once again making the government look very very bad. 149 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: Robin, What needs to happen here? Do you think? 150 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: You know, you've said that our corrections system is in 151 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: crisis right now. 152 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: What do you reckon needs to happen? 153 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: Well, they're trying desperately to sell this justice reinvestment model 154 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: where they're trying to avert people who commit crimes ending 155 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 3: up in jail. I suppose that's the only option they have. 156 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, one would think that they try 157 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: and just stop the crime in the first place. But 158 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 3: I guess that's too hard for them to get their 159 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: head around. I mean, five years ago, we didn't have 160 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 3: this enormous pressure on the jails that we have now. 161 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: So you know, the elephant in the room is why 162 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 3: are these people just going berserk and committing all these 163 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: crimes in the first place, whereas they weren't to this 164 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 3: extent five to ten years ago. What the heck's going 165 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: on that we had to potentially build more prisons or 166 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: put in these programs that avert people or send them 167 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: somewhere else, rather than to jail. I mean, ironically, the 168 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: government's one of their platform policies has always been to 169 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: reduce the incarceration rate of Aboriginal people. Yet this government 170 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 3: has incarcerated more Aboriginal people than any other Northern Territory 171 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 3: government in the history of the Northern Territory. So they 172 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: are failing, failing, failing, Katie, and any mission or acknowledgment 173 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: of their failure just doesn't happen. And I guess you 174 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: know that's politics. But when you're sitting in front of 175 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 3: these ministers one after the other for a week and 176 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: a half now and you're just getting the positive stories, 177 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 3: it's really it's like you're in a parallel universe, like 178 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: what happened outside. 179 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: Well, and they've got to listen, you know, they have 180 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: to listen to what normal people are saying. 181 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the thing. 182 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: And Robin, look, coming up next, we're actually going to 183 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: be speaking to Samara Lavity Decland's mum. She's taken aim 184 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: at the government for not acting with urgency following her 185 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: son's death. Robin, do you think that the government are 186 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: doing enough in this space? 187 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: Look, I think they probably are trying to work very 188 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 3: quickly to fix the problems that they created. Territorians will 189 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 3: remember that over the last seven years this government relaxed 190 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 3: the BAO requirements for people that have committed certain crimes. 191 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 3: Now they're having to fix the problem that they created. 192 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: So we heard from the Attorney General yesterday that he's 193 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: working hard and there's all these timelines around different reviews 194 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 3: and reports around the use of weapons and the bar legislation. 195 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: The fact that a woman who's lost her son is 196 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: calling them out is really grave and deeply embarrassing for them. 197 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: Not enough was done in the first place to stop 198 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: these crimes from happening. The fact that they might be 199 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: working hard at the moment to fix the problem that 200 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: they created is neither here nor there. A life has been. 201 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: Lost, Robin Lamley, we are going to have to leave 202 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: it there. It is always good to catch up with you. 203 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: Hopefully talk to you again very soon. 204 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: I'd like that, Katie. 205 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you, Thanks Robin.