Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the daily
Speaker 1: ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Daily OS. It is Friday, the ninth of August.
Speaker 2: I'm billy, i'm zara.
Speaker 1: Today is a Friday, and for many people who typically
Speaker 1: work in an office, that means there is a good
Speaker 1: chance that some of you will be working from home today.
Speaker 1: But are the days of working from home over? In
Speaker 1: case you missed it, this week New South Wales public
Speaker 1: sector employees were directed back to the office by the
Speaker 1: New South Wales government. It is triggered a strong debate
Speaker 1: about what flexibility looks like in today's post pandemic world
Speaker 1: and if going back to the pre pandemic working life
Speaker 1: is really realistic. In today's deep dive, we're going to
Speaker 1: discuss exactly where we are at with work from home.
Speaker 1: But first, Sarah, what is making headlines today.
Speaker 2: South Australia Liberal Opposition leader David Spears has stepped down
Speaker 2: a decision he said would quote give the next leader
Speaker 2: the best possible opportunity to succeed at the state's next
Speaker 2: election in twenty twenty six. Spears said that resigning as
Speaker 2: a leader is quote in my best interests and that
Speaker 2: of my family, but he will stay on in his
Speaker 2: role as the member for Black in South Adelaide. Liberal
Speaker 2: members said he will support the next opposition leader for
Speaker 2: the state and that it was a privilege and honor
Speaker 2: to serve.
Speaker 1: The Reserve Bank Governor Michelle Bollock has said that the
Speaker 1: RBA will not hesitate to raise interest rates again to
Speaker 1: combat inflation during a speech in Sydney on Thursday. It
Speaker 1: comes after the RBA announced on Tuesday that the cash
Speaker 1: rate would remain unchanged of four point three five percent
Speaker 1: for the sixth consecutive time. Despite keeping the rate the same,
Speaker 1: Bollock said yesterday in an address that there is considerable
Speaker 1: uncertainty over Australia's economic future. She also said quote, I
Speaker 1: know this is not what people want to hear, but
Speaker 1: the alternative of persistently high inflation is worse. It hurts everyone.
Speaker 2: The Weld Health Organization has announced it will send over
Speaker 2: one million polio vaccines to Gaza. Sanitation and health in
Speaker 2: the region has declined significantly amid the Israel Haamas war
Speaker 2: in Gaza, including the recent detection of polio in water samples.
Speaker 2: Polio is an infectious disease that mainly affects children under
Speaker 2: five and can cause paralysis. The who's Director General said
Speaker 2: that absolute freedom of movement is needed for medical workers
Speaker 2: to administer the vaccines to around six hundred thousand children
Speaker 2: safely and effectively.
Speaker 1: The beach community of Lahina in Hawaii is celebrating the
Speaker 1: recovery of a one hundred and fifty one year old
Speaker 1: banyan tree, one year after it was burnt in the
Speaker 1: Maui wildfires. Planted in eighteen seventy three, the front street
Speaker 1: banyan tree is the oldest of its kind in Maui
Speaker 1: and holds cultural significance for the community. Following the Maui
Speaker 1: wildfires in All last year, which damaged twenty five thousand trees,
Speaker 1: a local team of volunteers have helped the trees recovery since.
Speaker 1: One local official told local media quote, you see a
Speaker 1: lot of long, long branches with hundreds of leaves back
Speaker 1: on the tree, and some of those branches are even
Speaker 1: producing fruit.
Speaker 2: Billy. The debate about work from home versus work in
Speaker 2: the office is a big one people feel very strongly,
Speaker 2: and so before we get into the emotional response to
Speaker 2: it all, can you just start quite broad by telling
Speaker 2: us what happened this week and why we're talking about it.
Speaker 1: So this week it was announced that the new South
Speaker 1: Wales government would require every person in the public sector
Speaker 1: to return to working from the office, so essentially ending
Speaker 1: work from home for the most part. Obviously there are
Speaker 1: always exceptions and there's always flexibility for different arrangements, especially
Speaker 1: for those with care responsibilities, but for the most part
Speaker 1: they want people back in the office. Now. When I
Speaker 1: first saw this in the news and Tuesday morning, the
Speaker 1: reporting said that workers would need to be in the
Speaker 1: office every single day of the working week. But when
Speaker 1: the new South Wales Premier Chris Mins did a press conference,
Speaker 1: he actually said that the policy will be for workers
Speaker 1: to be in the office quote primarily and predominantly.
Speaker 2: So not necessarily every single day, no.
Speaker 1: So predominantly basically majority of the days. So I think
Speaker 1: you can take it as three out of five you
Speaker 1: have to be in the office. Like I said, there
Speaker 1: will always be exceptions, but that will be the standard rule. Now,
Speaker 1: public sector is a term that you might hear thrown
Speaker 1: around a lot, but I thought it might be worth
Speaker 1: actually explaining who they are.
Speaker 2: I think this is helpful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if anyone doesn't know. It just means that
Speaker 1: anyone who is employed by the New South Wales government.
Speaker 1: So that includes staff in government departments. So think of
Speaker 1: something like the Department of Education or the Department of Health.
Speaker 1: All the people who work for those departments they now
Speaker 1: need to be working in the office. The public sector
Speaker 1: does also include things like public hospitals and public schools,
Speaker 1: so teachers, nurses. Of course, those workers can't work from home,
Speaker 1: so this doesn't affect them. It's just affecting those people
Speaker 1: who can work in an office for them to go back.
Speaker 1: Minn said in his press conference that about eighty five
Speaker 1: percent of public servants don't work from home, so this
Speaker 1: new policy is affecting about fifteen percent of the workforce.
Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds like a small percentage, but I
Speaker 2: think the reason that that's being spoken about so much
Speaker 2: is because the New South Wales public sector employs four
Speaker 2: hundred thousand people. So even fifteen percent of that, we're
Speaker 2: talking about a lot of people here who have had
Speaker 2: a bit of a big change when it comes to
Speaker 2: their working arrangements.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a huge employer in New South Wales.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And so what was Chris Mins's reasoning behind
Speaker 2: this decision. How did he come out and explain this call.
Speaker 1: He really emphasized the word teamwork that kept coming up
Speaker 1: in the press conference, and he said that all of
Speaker 1: the research available shows that the best way to foster
Speaker 1: teamwork is by having people in the same location, and
Speaker 1: that being the office. And he actually said that this
Speaker 1: decision was made in large part because of young people.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that would be a popular part of
Speaker 2: the announcement.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's one of those things where you don't know
Speaker 1: what's best for you, I think is his point. But
Speaker 1: he said that the public service hires a lot of
Speaker 1: university graduates and that for your first job out of
Speaker 1: you need to be one where everyone is working from home.
Speaker 1: That can make it difficult. And he said that when
Speaker 1: the grads don't have access or don't have immediate access
Speaker 1: to people that have decades of experience who they can
Speaker 1: learn from, then it becomes hard to build a really
Speaker 1: productive team where young people are learning from the experts
Speaker 1: in the room around them. I mean, I think we
Speaker 1: all know that messaging someone over Slack isn't the same
Speaker 1: as just turning to the person next to you.
Speaker 2: And I see obviously a very nuanced topic, but it
Speaker 2: is something that I can see even in our workplace
Speaker 2: that we have so many young people who choose to
Speaker 2: come in on a daily basis because you can create
Speaker 2: those relationships both with people your own age, but then
Speaker 2: also looking upwards that people you can learn from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our offices may be an anomaly. We're like a
Speaker 1: weird group of people who are.
Speaker 2: We weird anyway. So that's the social elements and the
Speaker 2: learning elements. What else did Chrismin say?
Speaker 1: So another key reason is the economy, and he really
Speaker 1: emphasized this. So over recent months there have been a
Speaker 1: few different reports come out about how the Sydney CBD
Speaker 1: and I would say that this is consistent across CBDs
Speaker 1: across the country, not just.
Speaker 2: We've definitely heard this about Melbourne a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what they're saying is that they have been
Speaker 1: very quiet compared to pre pandemic levels. There aren't the
Speaker 1: work is there. It's not like this bustling city that
Speaker 1: it was, and that is having a hit on the
Speaker 1: different small businesses in the CBDs. So I say Fridays
Speaker 1: for an example. As we know Fridays have traditionally they've
Speaker 1: always been this key time for after work drinks with
Speaker 1: colleagues or with friends. But now Fridays are a really
Speaker 1: popular time for many people to work.
Speaker 2: From home, have that long weekend vibe.
Speaker 1: Yes, and so that's meant that workplaces are a lot
Speaker 1: quieter on Fridays and that just has this flow on effect.
Speaker 1: So that then means that people aren't going to drinks
Speaker 1: after work and that causes bars and pubs to take
Speaker 1: a significant hit. Some businesses in Sydney have said that
Speaker 1: they have lost up to twenty five percent of profit
Speaker 1: on Fridays when compared to pre pandemic levels. So that's
Speaker 1: a significant amount of profit that they're losing out on
Speaker 1: and that has meant that there has been this push
Speaker 1: from business owners and business groups for the government to
Speaker 1: do something about this and to somehow incentivize and encourage
Speaker 1: people to get back into the office to help the economy.
Speaker 1: And so this decision has been praised by business groups.
Speaker 1: So it hasn't been that popular with workers, but it
Speaker 1: has been popular with business groups. Also, another industry that
Speaker 1: has taken a hit from work from home policies is
Speaker 1: commercial property developers. It means are even in our office
Speaker 1: we have had a vacant office below us for.
Speaker 2: A very long time, two years now. I'm a big
Speaker 2: concent and that something is very wrong with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have not been able to find renters, and
Speaker 1: so that is another industry group that has really praised
Speaker 1: this decision. There is however, a slight problem and that
Speaker 1: there isn't actually enough space right now that is being
Speaker 1: rented by the New South Wales government for the public
Speaker 1: sector for all of these workers to suddenly come back
Speaker 1: into the office right.
Speaker 2: That strikes me as something that perhaps should have been
Speaker 2: considered before making an announcement like this.
Speaker 1: Was that addressed, Yeah, well, I think the point is
Speaker 1: that this decision isn't effective immediately. There will be about
Speaker 1: a six month rollout period for the New South Wales
Speaker 1: government to find new office spaces so that there is
Speaker 1: enough capacity to bring all of these people back. New
Speaker 1: South Wales Premier Chris min said that they are looking
Speaker 1: at different office spaces in Sydney' CBD and Paramata and
Speaker 1: he said that, like I just said, there is a
Speaker 1: lot of commercial office space available. It's just about them.
Speaker 2: Moving in downstairs. We'll see them there, okay. And so
Speaker 2: I feel like we spent quite a bit of time
Speaker 2: talking about what the business perspective is. What Chris Mins's
Speaker 2: perspective is that, I would argue, is quite distinct from
Speaker 2: the experience of your average worker, who perhaps might not
Speaker 2: take to this announcement too well. What has the response been.
Speaker 1: So many opinions as is the case, Yeah, let's look
Speaker 1: at the workers. If our comment section on the Daily
Speaker 1: ODS is anything to go by, I would say it
Speaker 1: hasn't been the most popular. Our top comment on the
Speaker 1: daly os was one that said quote work is an activity,
Speaker 1: not a place. I also spoke to someone who works
Speaker 1: in the public service who got this memo that they
Speaker 1: needed to go back to the office, and their perspective
Speaker 1: was really interesting because they actually moved to regional New
Speaker 1: South Wales during the pandemic and they had this arrangement
Speaker 1: with work that they were able to work from home
Speaker 1: for the majority. I mean, I think they don't have
Speaker 1: to go into the office like more than once every
Speaker 1: three months. So they were really able to set up
Speaker 1: their life to fully work from.
Speaker 2: Home, presumably in a more affordable area.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, and now being told to go back into
Speaker 1: the office up to three days a week is just
Speaker 1: not feasible, you know, if you account for all of
Speaker 1: those travel hours that is more expensive, and I think
Speaker 1: in the cost of living crisis, that's another thing that
Speaker 1: is really being raised by a lot of workers. We
Speaker 1: also polled our audience and about ninety percent said that
Speaker 1: office policies should be hybrid, so allowing for both work
Speaker 1: from home and in office, which is worth pointing out
Speaker 1: is similar to what the new government is suggesting. Only
Speaker 1: six percent of respondents said that office policies should be
Speaker 1: a mandate to work in the office full time. We
Speaker 1: also asked them if they would reconsider working for a
Speaker 1: company if that company required you to always be in
Speaker 1: the office, and about sixty percent said that they would.
Speaker 1: So will be interesting to see if the public sector
Speaker 1: we'll be able to continue to attract and retain staff
Speaker 1: with this new policy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as we explain more of it, I
Speaker 2: do think that there was a bar a clickbait around
Speaker 2: at the beginning and hearing you explain that you know,
Speaker 2: Chrismins isn't demanding that five days a week you're back
Speaker 2: in the office from tomorrow, that it is this phased
Speaker 2: in procedure and that there is still this hybrid nature
Speaker 2: to it. But I imagine that if you've had an
Speaker 2: agreement and you've moved out to the regions, this would
Speaker 2: be a huge blow. And we know, of course for
Speaker 2: working parents working from home has been a life saver
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 1: We're also nearly five years since the pandemic started and
Speaker 1: nearly five years into when working from home became much
Speaker 1: more of a regular thing for so many people, and
Speaker 1: so I think the drastic change is what really was
Speaker 1: quite jarring for a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that for workers, it's been working
Speaker 2: just fine. And so if you're now turning around and
Speaker 2: saying that thing that's been working just fine for the
Speaker 2: last four or five years is no longer working just fine,
Speaker 2: I imagine there would be some questions. Billy, you flagged
Speaker 2: earlier that business groups are generally happy with this announcement, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that they are really
Speaker 1: happy with this decision. Business Sydney is one group who
Speaker 1: came out and praised the premiere for his leadership. They
Speaker 1: said that they have quote consistently called for the government
Speaker 1: to take the lead in ending work from home arrangements
Speaker 1: and that it will be huge encouragement for the private
Speaker 1: sector in its efforts to bring their people back to
Speaker 1: the workplace. So what they're saying there is that the
Speaker 1: new South Wales government has taken the lead and that
Speaker 1: hopefully private companies, for example the Daily Ours we're a
Speaker 1: private company, will now follow that lead for making a
Speaker 1: mandate for people to work in the office.
Speaker 2: Based on our comment section, I'm not sure we will
Speaker 2: be following suit, but it will be interesting to see
Speaker 2: whether this does become a trend. I know that we've seen,
Speaker 2: you know, CBA and some other banks try to lead
Speaker 2: on this, but it didn't necessarily create this follow on
Speaker 2: effect that perhaps some of the business groups were looking for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one other group that was happy was Property
Speaker 1: Counsel of Australia. They also said that quote more workers
Speaker 1: means more life, more investment and more business for our cities.
Speaker 2: And obviously their vested interest is in property, so that
Speaker 2: would make sense on that behalf too. Now, Billy, if
Speaker 2: people haven't been able to work from home today and
Speaker 2: they are on their commute to work listening to this podcast,
Speaker 2: what do you think they should listen to next? What
Speaker 2: was your favorite TDA podcast from this week?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 2: Great segue, Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely biased. But on Tuesday I did an interview
Speaker 1: with an economist about what was going on with the
Speaker 1: falling stock markets this week. I was so confused and
Speaker 1: I needed an expert to explain it to me. I
Speaker 1: wanted to understand, if you are not someone who invests
Speaker 1: in shares, and if you are someone who also doesn't
Speaker 1: own a property, how does falling stock markets actually affect you?
Speaker 1: And is it something that you need to worry about?
Speaker 1: And he explained it to me so well, and I
Speaker 1: would highly recommend to that.
Speaker 2: Well, there you go.
Speaker 1: What about you, Zara, what was your favorite episode this week?
Speaker 2: I think my favorite episode, which seems like a weird
Speaker 2: word to describe it, but was the episode we did
Speaker 2: on The Men on Trial for nine to eleven. This
Speaker 2: is such a crazy story to me, and there are
Speaker 2: so many twists and turns, and I think so many
Speaker 2: of us feel so removed from what happened in two
Speaker 2: thousand and one because it was so long ago, but
Speaker 2: you know the fact that there are these lasting implications
Speaker 2: in the legal system. I just found it absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 1: We will put a link to those episodes in today's
Speaker 1: show notes if you would like to go and have
Speaker 1: a listen. Thank you so much for listening to this
Speaker 1: episode of The Daily Os. Have a good Friday if
Speaker 1: you're in the office or if you're working from home,
Speaker 1: and we will see you again on Monday. My name
Speaker 1: is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkottin
Speaker 1: woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this
Speaker 1: podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people
Speaker 1: and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island
Speaker 1: and nations. We pay our respects to the first peoples
Speaker 1: of these countries, both past and present.