WEBVTT - Are workers losing the WFH debate?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is the daily

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<v Speaker 1>ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to the Daily OS. It is Friday, the ninth of August.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm billy, i'm zara.

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<v Speaker 1>Today is a Friday, and for many people who typically

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<v Speaker 1>work in an office, that means there is a good

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<v Speaker 1>chance that some of you will be working from home today.

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<v Speaker 1>But are the days of working from home over? In

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<v Speaker 1>case you missed it, this week New South Wales public

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<v Speaker 1>sector employees were directed back to the office by the

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<v Speaker 1>New South Wales government. It is triggered a strong debate

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<v Speaker 1>about what flexibility looks like in today's post pandemic world

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<v Speaker 1>and if going back to the pre pandemic working life

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<v Speaker 1>is really realistic. In today's deep dive, we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss exactly where we are at with work from home.

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<v Speaker 1>But first, Sarah, what is making headlines today.

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<v Speaker 2>South Australia Liberal Opposition leader David Spears has stepped down

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<v Speaker 2>a decision he said would quote give the next leader

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<v Speaker 2>the best possible opportunity to succeed at the state's next

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<v Speaker 2>election in twenty twenty six. Spears said that resigning as

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<v Speaker 2>a leader is quote in my best interests and that

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<v Speaker 2>of my family, but he will stay on in his

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<v Speaker 2>role as the member for Black in South Adelaide. Liberal

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<v Speaker 2>members said he will support the next opposition leader for

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<v Speaker 2>the state and that it was a privilege and honor

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<v Speaker 2>to serve.

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<v Speaker 1>The Reserve Bank Governor Michelle Bollock has said that the

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<v Speaker 1>RBA will not hesitate to raise interest rates again to

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<v Speaker 1>combat inflation during a speech in Sydney on Thursday. It

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<v Speaker 1>comes after the RBA announced on Tuesday that the cash

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<v Speaker 1>rate would remain unchanged of four point three five percent

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<v Speaker 1>for the sixth consecutive time. Despite keeping the rate the same,

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<v Speaker 1>Bollock said yesterday in an address that there is considerable

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<v Speaker 1>uncertainty over Australia's economic future. She also said quote, I

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<v Speaker 1>know this is not what people want to hear, but

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<v Speaker 1>the alternative of persistently high inflation is worse. It hurts everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>The Weld Health Organization has announced it will send over

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<v Speaker 2>one million polio vaccines to Gaza. Sanitation and health in

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<v Speaker 2>the region has declined significantly amid the Israel Haamas war

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<v Speaker 2>in Gaza, including the recent detection of polio in water samples.

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<v Speaker 2>Polio is an infectious disease that mainly affects children under

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<v Speaker 2>five and can cause paralysis. The who's Director General said

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<v Speaker 2>that absolute freedom of movement is needed for medical workers

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<v Speaker 2>to administer the vaccines to around six hundred thousand children

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<v Speaker 2>safely and effectively.

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<v Speaker 1>The beach community of Lahina in Hawaii is celebrating the

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<v Speaker 1>recovery of a one hundred and fifty one year old

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<v Speaker 1>banyan tree, one year after it was burnt in the

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<v Speaker 1>Maui wildfires. Planted in eighteen seventy three, the front street

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<v Speaker 1>banyan tree is the oldest of its kind in Maui

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<v Speaker 1>and holds cultural significance for the community. Following the Maui

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<v Speaker 1>wildfires in All last year, which damaged twenty five thousand trees,

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<v Speaker 1>a local team of volunteers have helped the trees recovery since.

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<v Speaker 1>One local official told local media quote, you see a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of long, long branches with hundreds of leaves back

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<v Speaker 1>on the tree, and some of those branches are even

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<v Speaker 1>producing fruit.

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<v Speaker 2>Billy. The debate about work from home versus work in

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<v Speaker 2>the office is a big one people feel very strongly,

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<v Speaker 2>and so before we get into the emotional response to

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<v Speaker 2>it all, can you just start quite broad by telling

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<v Speaker 2>us what happened this week and why we're talking about it.

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<v Speaker 1>So this week it was announced that the new South

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<v Speaker 1>Wales government would require every person in the public sector

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<v Speaker 1>to return to working from the office, so essentially ending

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<v Speaker 1>work from home for the most part. Obviously there are

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<v Speaker 1>always exceptions and there's always flexibility for different arrangements, especially

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<v Speaker 1>for those with care responsibilities, but for the most part

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<v Speaker 1>they want people back in the office. Now. When I

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<v Speaker 1>first saw this in the news and Tuesday morning, the

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<v Speaker 1>reporting said that workers would need to be in the

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<v Speaker 1>office every single day of the working week. But when

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<v Speaker 1>the new South Wales Premier Chris Mins did a press conference,

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<v Speaker 1>he actually said that the policy will be for workers

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<v Speaker 1>to be in the office quote primarily and predominantly.

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<v Speaker 2>So not necessarily every single day, no.

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<v Speaker 1>So predominantly basically majority of the days. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>you can take it as three out of five you

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<v Speaker 1>have to be in the office. Like I said, there

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<v Speaker 1>will always be exceptions, but that will be the standard rule. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>public sector is a term that you might hear thrown

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<v Speaker 1>around a lot, but I thought it might be worth

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<v Speaker 1>actually explaining who they are.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is helpful.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So if anyone doesn't know. It just means that

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<v Speaker 1>anyone who is employed by the New South Wales government.

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<v Speaker 1>So that includes staff in government departments. So think of

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<v Speaker 1>something like the Department of Education or the Department of Health.

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<v Speaker 1>All the people who work for those departments they now

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<v Speaker 1>need to be working in the office. The public sector

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<v Speaker 1>does also include things like public hospitals and public schools,

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<v Speaker 1>so teachers, nurses. Of course, those workers can't work from home,

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<v Speaker 1>so this doesn't affect them. It's just affecting those people

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<v Speaker 1>who can work in an office for them to go back.

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<v Speaker 1>Minn said in his press conference that about eighty five

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<v Speaker 1>percent of public servants don't work from home, so this

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<v Speaker 1>new policy is affecting about fifteen percent of the workforce.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that sounds like a small percentage, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think the reason that that's being spoken about so much

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<v Speaker 2>is because the New South Wales public sector employs four

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand people. So even fifteen percent of that, we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about a lot of people here who have had

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a big change when it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>their working arrangements.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're a huge employer in New South Wales.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, And so what was Chris Mins's reasoning behind

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<v Speaker 2>this decision. How did he come out and explain this call.

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<v Speaker 1>He really emphasized the word teamwork that kept coming up

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<v Speaker 1>in the press conference, and he said that all of

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<v Speaker 1>the research available shows that the best way to foster

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<v Speaker 1>teamwork is by having people in the same location, and

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<v Speaker 1>that being the office. And he actually said that this

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<v Speaker 1>decision was made in large part because of young people.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that would be a popular part of

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<v Speaker 2>the announcement.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's one of those things where you don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what's best for you, I think is his point. But

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<v Speaker 1>he said that the public service hires a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>university graduates and that for your first job out of

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<v Speaker 1>you need to be one where everyone is working from home.

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<v Speaker 1>That can make it difficult. And he said that when

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<v Speaker 1>the grads don't have access or don't have immediate access

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<v Speaker 1>to people that have decades of experience who they can

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<v Speaker 1>learn from, then it becomes hard to build a really

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<v Speaker 1>productive team where young people are learning from the experts

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<v Speaker 1>in the room around them. I mean, I think we

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<v Speaker 1>all know that messaging someone over Slack isn't the same

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<v Speaker 1>as just turning to the person next to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And I see obviously a very nuanced topic, but it

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<v Speaker 2>is something that I can see even in our workplace

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<v Speaker 2>that we have so many young people who choose to

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<v Speaker 2>come in on a daily basis because you can create

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<v Speaker 2>those relationships both with people your own age, but then

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<v Speaker 2>also looking upwards that people you can learn from.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, our offices may be an anomaly. We're like a

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<v Speaker 1>weird group of people who are.

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<v Speaker 2>We weird anyway. So that's the social elements and the

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<v Speaker 2>learning elements. What else did Chrismin say?

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<v Speaker 1>So another key reason is the economy, and he really

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<v Speaker 1>emphasized this. So over recent months there have been a

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<v Speaker 1>few different reports come out about how the Sydney CBD

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<v Speaker 1>and I would say that this is consistent across CBDs

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<v Speaker 1>across the country, not just.

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<v Speaker 2>We've definitely heard this about Melbourne a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so what they're saying is that they have been

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<v Speaker 1>very quiet compared to pre pandemic levels. There aren't the

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<v Speaker 1>work is there. It's not like this bustling city that

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<v Speaker 1>it was, and that is having a hit on the

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<v Speaker 1>different small businesses in the CBDs. So I say Fridays

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<v Speaker 1>for an example. As we know Fridays have traditionally they've

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<v Speaker 1>always been this key time for after work drinks with

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<v Speaker 1>colleagues or with friends. But now Fridays are a really

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<v Speaker 1>popular time for many people to work.

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<v Speaker 2>From home, have that long weekend vibe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, and so that's meant that workplaces are a lot

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<v Speaker 1>quieter on Fridays and that just has this flow on effect.

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<v Speaker 1>So that then means that people aren't going to drinks

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<v Speaker 1>after work and that causes bars and pubs to take

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<v Speaker 1>a significant hit. Some businesses in Sydney have said that

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<v Speaker 1>they have lost up to twenty five percent of profit

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<v Speaker 1>on Fridays when compared to pre pandemic levels. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>a significant amount of profit that they're losing out on

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<v Speaker 1>and that has meant that there has been this push

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<v Speaker 1>from business owners and business groups for the government to

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<v Speaker 1>do something about this and to somehow incentivize and encourage

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<v Speaker 1>people to get back into the office to help the economy.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this decision has been praised by business groups.

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<v Speaker 1>So it hasn't been that popular with workers, but it

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<v Speaker 1>has been popular with business groups. Also, another industry that

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<v Speaker 1>has taken a hit from work from home policies is

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<v Speaker 1>commercial property developers. It means are even in our office

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<v Speaker 1>we have had a vacant office below us for.

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<v Speaker 2>A very long time, two years now. I'm a big

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<v Speaker 2>concent and that something is very wrong with them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they have not been able to find renters, and

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<v Speaker 1>so that is another industry group that has really praised

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<v Speaker 1>this decision. There is however, a slight problem and that

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<v Speaker 1>there isn't actually enough space right now that is being

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<v Speaker 1>rented by the New South Wales government for the public

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<v Speaker 1>sector for all of these workers to suddenly come back

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<v Speaker 1>into the office right.

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<v Speaker 2>That strikes me as something that perhaps should have been

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<v Speaker 2>considered before making an announcement like this.

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<v Speaker 1>Was that addressed, Yeah, well, I think the point is

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<v Speaker 1>that this decision isn't effective immediately. There will be about

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<v Speaker 1>a six month rollout period for the New South Wales

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<v Speaker 1>government to find new office spaces so that there is

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<v Speaker 1>enough capacity to bring all of these people back. New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales Premier Chris min said that they are looking

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<v Speaker 1>at different office spaces in Sydney' CBD and Paramata and

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<v Speaker 1>he said that, like I just said, there is a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of commercial office space available. It's just about them.

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<v Speaker 2>Moving in downstairs. We'll see them there, okay. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we spent quite a bit of time

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<v Speaker 2>talking about what the business perspective is. What Chris Mins's

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<v Speaker 2>perspective is that, I would argue, is quite distinct from

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<v Speaker 2>the experience of your average worker, who perhaps might not

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<v Speaker 2>take to this announcement too well. What has the response been.

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<v Speaker 1>So many opinions as is the case, Yeah, let's look

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<v Speaker 1>at the workers. If our comment section on the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>ODS is anything to go by, I would say it

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't been the most popular. Our top comment on the

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<v Speaker 1>daly os was one that said quote work is an activity,

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<v Speaker 1>not a place. I also spoke to someone who works

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<v Speaker 1>in the public service who got this memo that they

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<v Speaker 1>needed to go back to the office, and their perspective

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<v Speaker 1>was really interesting because they actually moved to regional New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales during the pandemic and they had this arrangement

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<v Speaker 1>with work that they were able to work from home

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<v Speaker 1>for the majority. I mean, I think they don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to go into the office like more than once every

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<v Speaker 1>three months. So they were really able to set up

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<v Speaker 1>their life to fully work from.

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<v Speaker 2>Home, presumably in a more affordable area.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, and now being told to go back into

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<v Speaker 1>the office up to three days a week is just

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<v Speaker 1>not feasible, you know, if you account for all of

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<v Speaker 1>those travel hours that is more expensive, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>in the cost of living crisis, that's another thing that

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<v Speaker 1>is really being raised by a lot of workers. We

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<v Speaker 1>also polled our audience and about ninety percent said that

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<v Speaker 1>office policies should be hybrid, so allowing for both work

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<v Speaker 1>from home and in office, which is worth pointing out

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<v Speaker 1>is similar to what the new government is suggesting. Only

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<v Speaker 1>six percent of respondents said that office policies should be

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<v Speaker 1>a mandate to work in the office full time. We

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<v Speaker 1>also asked them if they would reconsider working for a

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<v Speaker 1>company if that company required you to always be in

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<v Speaker 1>the office, and about sixty percent said that they would.

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<v Speaker 1>So will be interesting to see if the public sector

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<v Speaker 1>we'll be able to continue to attract and retain staff

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<v Speaker 1>with this new policy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, as we explain more of it, I

0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.840
<v Speaker 2>do think that there was a bar a clickbait around

0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.560
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning and hearing you explain that you know,

0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Chrismins isn't demanding that five days a week you're back

0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.560
<v Speaker 2>in the office from tomorrow, that it is this phased

0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.800
<v Speaker 2>in procedure and that there is still this hybrid nature

0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:23.720
<v Speaker 2>to it. But I imagine that if you've had an

0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.480
<v Speaker 2>agreement and you've moved out to the regions, this would

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.480
<v Speaker 2>be a huge blow. And we know, of course for

0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.839
<v Speaker 2>working parents working from home has been a life saver

0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 2>for them.

0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.280
<v Speaker 1>We're also nearly five years since the pandemic started and

0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 1>nearly five years into when working from home became much

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.200
<v Speaker 1>more of a regular thing for so many people, and

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.319
<v Speaker 1>so I think the drastic change is what really was

0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.000
<v Speaker 1>quite jarring for a lot of people.

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think that for workers, it's been working

0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.000
<v Speaker 2>just fine. And so if you're now turning around and

0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:54.800
<v Speaker 2>saying that thing that's been working just fine for the

0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.960
<v Speaker 2>last four or five years is no longer working just fine,

0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>I imagine there would be some questions. Billy, you flagged

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.160
<v Speaker 2>earlier that business groups are generally happy with this announcement, right, Yeah.

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:06.560
<v Speaker 1>I think it's fair to say that they are really

0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.200
<v Speaker 1>happy with this decision. Business Sydney is one group who

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.760
<v Speaker 1>came out and praised the premiere for his leadership. They

0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 1>said that they have quote consistently called for the government

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.080
<v Speaker 1>to take the lead in ending work from home arrangements

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 1>and that it will be huge encouragement for the private

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 1>sector in its efforts to bring their people back to

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.360
<v Speaker 1>the workplace. So what they're saying there is that the

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>new South Wales government has taken the lead and that

0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>hopefully private companies, for example the Daily Ours we're a

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.320
<v Speaker 1>private company, will now follow that lead for making a

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 1>mandate for people to work in the office.

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Based on our comment section, I'm not sure we will

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.960
<v Speaker 2>be following suit, but it will be interesting to see

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.240
<v Speaker 2>whether this does become a trend. I know that we've seen,

0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, CBA and some other banks try to lead

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.800
<v Speaker 2>on this, but it didn't necessarily create this follow on

0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.200
<v Speaker 2>effect that perhaps some of the business groups were looking for.

0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and one other group that was happy was Property

0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Counsel of Australia. They also said that quote more workers

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.600
<v Speaker 1>means more life, more investment and more business for our cities.

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 2>And obviously their vested interest is in property, so that

0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.720
<v Speaker 2>would make sense on that behalf too. Now, Billy, if

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.160
<v Speaker 2>people haven't been able to work from home today and

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.319
<v Speaker 2>they are on their commute to work listening to this podcast,

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.280
<v Speaker 2>what do you think they should listen to next? What

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was your favorite TDA podcast from this week?

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Wow?

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Great segue, Thank you.

0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm definitely biased. But on Tuesday I did an interview

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.320
<v Speaker 1>with an economist about what was going on with the

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.640
<v Speaker 1>falling stock markets this week. I was so confused and

0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 1>I needed an expert to explain it to me. I

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.400
<v Speaker 1>wanted to understand, if you are not someone who invests

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 1>in shares, and if you are someone who also doesn't

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 1>own a property, how does falling stock markets actually affect you?

0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 1>And is it something that you need to worry about?

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 1>And he explained it to me so well, and I

0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 1>would highly recommend to that.

0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, there you go.

0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.240
<v Speaker 1>What about you, Zara, what was your favorite episode this week?

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.240
<v Speaker 2>I think my favorite episode, which seems like a weird

0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 2>word to describe it, but was the episode we did

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 2>on The Men on Trial for nine to eleven. This

0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.120
<v Speaker 2>is such a crazy story to me, and there are

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.680
<v Speaker 2>so many twists and turns, and I think so many

0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.440
<v Speaker 2>of us feel so removed from what happened in two

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.560
<v Speaker 2>thousand and one because it was so long ago, but

0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.479
<v Speaker 2>you know the fact that there are these lasting implications

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.920
<v Speaker 2>in the legal system. I just found it absolutely fascinating.

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.880
<v Speaker 1>We will put a link to those episodes in today's

0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 1>show notes if you would like to go and have

0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 1>a listen. Thank you so much for listening to this

0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 1>episode of The Daily Os. Have a good Friday if

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.440
<v Speaker 1>you're in the office or if you're working from home,

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 1>and we will see you again on Monday. My name

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 1>is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkottin

0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.200
<v Speaker 1>woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this

0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 1>podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.160
<v Speaker 1>and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and nations. We pay our respects to the first peoples

0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.320
<v Speaker 1>of these countries, both past and present.