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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the thirteenth of March.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: We're expecting some very big news overnight about the future

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Speaker 2: of Australia's defense. It is difficult to overstate the step

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Speaker 2: that is a nation we are about to take. This

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Speaker 2: is Richard Miles. He's the Minister for Defense and the

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Speaker 2: acting PM while Anthony Alberinezi is away speaking in Parliament.

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Speaker 2: Last week, Australia will become just the seventh country to

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Speaker 2: have the ability to operate a nuclear powered submarine.

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Speaker 1: We have never.

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Speaker 2: Operated a military capability at this level before. But will

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Speaker 2: Australia's new military capability keep Australia safe or escalate tensions

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Speaker 2: in the region. Well, we've got TVA journalist Tom Crowley

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Speaker 2: to help us answer some of those questions in today's

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Speaker 2: deep dive. But first the headlines.

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Speaker 3: Some major financial news over the weekend. Silicon Valley Bank,

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Speaker 3: which is the sixteenth largest bank in the US and

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Speaker 3: popular amongst US tech startups, has collapsed, leaving companies and

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Speaker 3: individual customers unable to withdraw any money. It's the biggest

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Speaker 3: US bank to fail since Washington Mutual collapsed at the

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Speaker 3: height of the two thousand and eight global financial crisis.

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Speaker 3: Multiple large Australian startups with US operations are thought to

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Speaker 3: be affected.

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Speaker 2: Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians and Indigenous Health Melanderie McCarthy

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Speaker 2: has delivered Australia's National Statement on the Status of Women

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Speaker 2: to the United Nations Commission in New York. In the statement,

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Speaker 2: McCarthy discussed the importance of including women in rural and

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Speaker 2: remote areas and those impacted by natural disasters in technology

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Speaker 2: and innovation. She's the first Indigenous woman to deliver the

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Speaker 2: statement for Australia.

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Speaker 3: New South Wales Premier Dominique Parte has announced a major

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Speaker 3: election promise outlining a Kid's Future Fund at his party's

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Speaker 3: campaign launch in Sydney yesterday. If re elected, Parite has

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Speaker 3: promised to give every child currently aged ten and under

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Speaker 3: in New South Wales, as well as those born from

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Speaker 3: now on, a fund for their first home or tertiary education,

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Speaker 3: with a starting investment of four hundred dollars from the

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Speaker 3: government that parents can contribute to every year.

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Speaker 2: And the good news, Catherine Bennell Peg will become the

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Speaker 2: first Australian born woman to participate in astronaut training with

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Speaker 2: an international space agency. Benel Peg, who's a space systems engineer,

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Speaker 2: will travel to the European Space Agency in Germany next

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Speaker 2: month and set She wants to use the experience to

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Speaker 2: open doors for Australian scientists and energy nears. Tom, welcome back,

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Speaker 2: Thanks Zara.

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Speaker 4: Good to be here.

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Speaker 2: So last week PM Anthony Albanezi was in India and

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Speaker 2: later today he's going to be in the US. He

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Speaker 2: is a busy man. He's meeting with the heads of

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Speaker 2: Orcus and we're expecting some announcement from that meeting. Tom,

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Speaker 2: what do we need to know about this announcement and

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Speaker 2: why it's important.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's all about submarines firstly, Zara, So Orcus, that's

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Speaker 4: Aukus is a deal that we struck with the UK

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Speaker 4: in the US in twenty twenty one, and the big

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Speaker 4: headline was Australia is going to get big, fancy nuclear submarines.

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Speaker 4: So I should say at this point that does not

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Speaker 4: mean submarines with nuclear weapons on them, but they're nuclear

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Speaker 4: powered submarines. They're sort of very advanced military technology. They

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Speaker 4: can stay underwater for a very long period of time.

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Speaker 4: So in that sense, I guess for all the submarine

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Speaker 4: nerds out there that there's something quite exciting about that.

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Speaker 4: Were duty hear some details of the announcement we think

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Speaker 4: later today from the three leaders as you mentioned in

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Speaker 4: the US. But as much as I could bore you

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Speaker 4: with all the details of the specifications of these submarines are,

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Speaker 4: I think this story is a little bit more interesting,

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Speaker 4: not so much for the subs themselves, but for what

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Speaker 4: they symbolize. This is a really really big shift in

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Speaker 4: Australia's defense policy in the way we view China and

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Speaker 4: the way we view our region. It's a huge, huge deal,

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Speaker 4: and I think that that's a far more interesting story.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you're going to great pains there to highlight

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Speaker 2: how big of a deal it actually is. What does

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Speaker 2: this orchestra relationship actually mean for US in Australia and

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Speaker 2: indeed the Pacific region.

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Speaker 4: Well, to set the context the Pacific region that you mentioned,

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Speaker 4: I mean for those who are not too familiar with

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Speaker 4: the map, of course, on either side of the Pacific,

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Speaker 4: you have China and the US probably the two great

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Speaker 4: world powers, and tension between those two has been a

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Speaker 4: defining feature of our region for a long time. I mean,

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Speaker 4: China has been growing and becoming a super power over

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Speaker 4: the last few decades, and there have always been concerns

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Speaker 4: and conversations about what that means for the world order

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Speaker 4: and what that means for the order in our part

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Speaker 4: of the world. Now, Australia of course has a long

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Speaker 4: standing alliance and friendship with the US, but for a while, really,

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Speaker 4: I think the way that we used to talk about

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Speaker 4: our role there was kind of as a bit of

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Speaker 4: a middle power between those two. So you go back

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Speaker 4: a decade or a little more than a decade ago,

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Speaker 4: and the way that we used to talk about the

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Speaker 4: US and China was, yes, you know, there might be

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Speaker 4: growing tension between the two, but Australia can bridge the gap.

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Speaker 4: China is a major trading partner and a friend of ours.

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Speaker 4: Where in the region where the opportunity to be a

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Speaker 4: bridge between these two great powers and to be I

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Speaker 4: guess leading efforts for peaceful and harmonious relationships in the area.

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Speaker 4: That was one way of thinking about it. But it's

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Speaker 4: fair to say that in the last few years in particular,

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Speaker 4: that has quite dramatically changed. And the key thing that

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Speaker 4: has happened really is that China has become a significantly

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Speaker 4: more aggressive player in global politics under President Chigi. I

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Speaker 4: think the best way to actually see that shift is

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Speaker 4: to look at changing attitudes in Australia. So you go

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Speaker 4: back to twenty eighteen's are there was a survey asking

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Speaker 4: Australians what they thought of China as a military threat

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Speaker 4: to Australia and forty five percent of people said that

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Speaker 4: they saw it as a threat, roughly the same number

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Speaker 4: that it had been for years. That's twenty eighteen. You

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Speaker 4: fast forward to twenty twenty two and that's gone from

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Speaker 4: forty five percent to seventy five percent. So there's been

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Speaker 4: a really dramatic shift in our attitudes, in attitudes across

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Speaker 4: the region and in the world in general. In the

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Speaker 4: way that that China and the relationship between China and

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Speaker 4: America is viewed in increasingly tense terms, and you know,

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Speaker 4: you see that in a number of areas. So there's

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Speaker 4: a disputed area of ocean, the South China Sea, where

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Speaker 4: China has territorial disputes with a lot of its neighbors,

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Speaker 4: and the US and Australia have some interest in that.

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Speaker 4: There's the issue of taiwan An island that runs itself

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Speaker 4: as a democracy. It's just off the Chinese coast, but

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Speaker 4: it's something that China is always viewed as part of

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Speaker 4: its territory. Rhetoric on that has been escalated in the

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Speaker 4: last few years, and generally just things have been feeling

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Speaker 4: a little bit more hostile, a little bit more tense.

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Speaker 4: But where Orcus is a big deal is that this

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Speaker 4: is the first time that we've really scaled up in

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Speaker 4: a big military sense in this part of the world.

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Speaker 4: Of course, we've always had strong military ties with the

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Speaker 4: US and the UK, but this is different. This is

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Speaker 4: the three countries saying we are now viewing this part

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Speaker 4: of the world in increasingly military terms, and it's impossible

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Speaker 4: to understand that without understanding the threat of China. This

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Speaker 4: is a strong statement from the three countries. Essentially Australia

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Speaker 4: is using advanced US military technology. We're going to have

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Speaker 4: you know, US personnel based more frequently on our shores

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Speaker 4: and I think in the short term even operating some

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Speaker 4: of the submarines themselves. This is a big step towards

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Speaker 4: militarizing the Pacific from our perspective. So although these things

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Speaker 4: have been changing, although there have been these shifts over

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Speaker 4: a period of time, this is a huge step. For

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Speaker 4: that reason, it.

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Speaker 2: Is a huge step. And whether it was outwardly expressed

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Speaker 2: or not, China has gotten the message that this is

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Speaker 2: a significant step forward. How has China responded to orchest

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Speaker 2: forming and suddenly what's happened over the last year or so, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean not well, you know, I think I suppose

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Speaker 4: one of the easiest ways to see how this is

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Speaker 4: viewed as response to China is that China has perceived

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Speaker 4: it as a threat. They've accused Australia, the UK, the

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Speaker 4: US of accelerating an arms race in the Pacific. It's

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Speaker 4: worth mentioning in that context, China's own military spending has

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Speaker 4: increased really significantly in recent years, so this is kind

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Speaker 4: of an arming up that is happening on I guess

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Speaker 4: on both sides of the Pacific. But you know, China

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Speaker 4: has accused Australia of undermining regional peace and stability, similar

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Speaker 4: claims that Australia and the US often make themselves about China.

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Speaker 4: So certainly it's not been received very well in China.

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Speaker 4: Across the region as well. I think it's fair to

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Speaker 4: say that it's creating a fair bit of nervousness in

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Speaker 4: the countries of the region. I mentioned earlier that countries

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Speaker 4: like Japan and South Korea are very much allies of

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Speaker 4: Australia in the US, but in a lot of other

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Speaker 4: countries in the region, views on UCUST are pretty mixed,

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Speaker 4: and generally speaking, there's just a lot of apprehension about

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Speaker 4: the developments that we've seen on both sides.

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Speaker 3: We're going to take a short break, we'll be right.

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Speaker 2: Back tom When UCUST was formed, there was all of

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Speaker 2: this talk about you know, threats emerging in the Pacific

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Speaker 2: and the rise of China and everything that comes with that.

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Speaker 2: And I guess the thing that strikes me when we're

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Speaker 2: having these discussions is that our allies in that partnership,

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Speaker 2: the US and UK, are fairly far away from that region,

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Speaker 2: whereas here in Australia, we're smack bang in the middle

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, we are right in the middle of this,

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Speaker 4: which is quite unusual. I think it's something we're not

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Speaker 4: used to. You know, when we talk about global conflicts

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Speaker 4: in Australia, although we often get involved, we're u to

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Speaker 4: them being things that are happening on the other side

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Speaker 4: of the world. This is very very close to home

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Speaker 4: and it poses some really really difficult questions for Australia.

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Speaker 4: I think this is a really tricky period of time

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Speaker 4: for us to navigate. I think, you know, it's not

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Speaker 4: so much a question of if it came to a

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Speaker 4: war with the US and China, whose side will we take?

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Speaker 4: Like I think if you frame it on those terms,

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Speaker 4: there's not really ever been a question in Australia that

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Speaker 4: the answer to that question would be the US. But

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Speaker 4: that's not really the right one. I think the question

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Speaker 4: that is really difficult for Australia is are we team

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Speaker 4: America or are we team Neutral? And to what extent

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Speaker 4: should Australia be I guess preparing for war and moving

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Speaker 4: closer to the US military, and to what extent should

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Speaker 4: Australia be trying to be that middle ground, be that

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Speaker 4: peace broker, be as neutral as we can. And I

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Speaker 4: suspect the idea of remaining neutral and staying out of

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Speaker 4: it probably sounds intuitively appealing to a lot of people,

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Speaker 4: but it's more implicated than it sounds, right because you know,

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Speaker 4: you go back ten fifteen years ago and what it's

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Speaker 4: staying neutral mean. It just meant, you know, we say

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Speaker 4: China is our great friend, America is our great friend.

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Speaker 4: You know, so happy families the world's don't really like that. Now.

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Speaker 4: You look at the way that China responds when we

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Speaker 4: have things to say about their human rights records, and

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Speaker 4: you know, the reports of crimes against humanity in China

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Speaker 4: against the Wager people. When we do anything that China

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Speaker 4: doesn't like. They've put bands on various Australian exports. They

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Speaker 4: are quite you know, I guess this thing about China

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Speaker 4: becoming more aggressive undersheshin Ping has included threatening Australia with

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Speaker 4: economic penalties and other penalties for doing things that China

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Speaker 4: doesn't like, and so remaining neutral becomes a much harder

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Speaker 4: thing for Australia to do in this tenser strategic environment.

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Speaker 4: You know, in a sense, the ship has sailed now

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Speaker 4: or the submarine has sailed. We're moving closer to the

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Speaker 4: US in terms of you know, military cooperation. These are

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Speaker 4: dangerous times for the world, but for Australia in particular,

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Speaker 4: and they pose some difficult challenges.

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Speaker 2: Thank you as always for leaving us with just some

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Speaker 2: small questions to have to answer on our Monday morning.

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Speaker 2: Happy Monday, but we will all be here. We'll all

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Speaker 2: be looking out for that orcut announcement overnight that should

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Speaker 2: hit tomorrow, so we'll be here to update you on

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Speaker 2: that and any news that it brings tom Thanks for

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Speaker 2: jumping on.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Sarah. Maybe next time can we get me on

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Speaker 4: to talk about something happier.

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Speaker 2: I can't promise it, but we'll try.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us on the Daily OS this morning.

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Speaker 3: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to

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Speaker 3: hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you

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Speaker 3: every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, have

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Speaker 3: a great day.