WEBVTT - Loving My Lying, Dying, Cheating Husband. Uncut with Kerstin Pilz 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.360 Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.120 lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:07.560 elders past and present. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.360 Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:12.560 recorded on Gadigal Land. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.599 Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:26.320 on Cut. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.360 Now I have a question for you, and this I 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.000 think will have a few of you having some conflicting 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.040 answers to this. Imagine meeting the love of your life, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.280 the man who you have been waiting for your whole 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.120 life to come along and sweep you off your feet. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:42.800 We don't wait for men, remember no, we don't. But 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.239 like you know, you don't pin yourself up to it. 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.280 You're ready for it, and he really does. You just 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.520 think that there is no one more incredible than this man. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.519 You have a well wind romance, you get engaged, you 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.120 get married, and then very shortly afterwards, you find out 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.680 that your husband has terminal cancer. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:00:59.960 You become his carer. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.120 You pour your love and your adoration into this man, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.520 only to find out whilst they are terminal and suffering 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.440 with that diagnosis, that they've also been cheating on you 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.400 throughout your entire relationship. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.959 I genuinely couldn't imagine being in this situation. It's one thing, 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.720 and I feel like most people sitting at home right 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:20.800 now have been in this situation. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.520 It's one thing to be cheated on, right. 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.280 And to feel that ultimate betrayal, to have to work 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.240 through that trust because some people do work through it, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.240 some people absolutely don't. But then to add the layer 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.440 of do I have to then look after this person 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.840 and care for them until they die because there might 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:38.240 not be anyone else to look after them? 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:38.320 Like? 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.959 Do I put that betrayal to the side? I cannot 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:42.039 fathom that question. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:43.640 Yeah, I mean this is the big one, right, Like, 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.360 what would you do if this was your situation? And 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.240 it's not even just put it to the side because 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:49.840 they don't have anyone to care for them. This is 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.520 would you willingly still be that person's palliative care? Would 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.640 you still willingly take care of that person until their 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.520 end of life knowing that they have betrayed you throughout 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.360 your entire relationship? And the reason why I asked this 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.360 question is because this is exactly the situation that Kirsten 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.440 Pills found herself in. She's written an incredible book. It 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.280 is called Loving My Lying, dying, Cheating Husband. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.120 Really drove that home in the title, didn't she. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:13.400 Yeah. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.760 I mean, there's definitely there's no ambiguity in this one. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.079 But Kirsten talks about the reasons why she made the 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.320 decisions to stay, the reasons why she made the decisions 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.880 to forgive, and this conversation so deeply centers around the 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.600 idea of forgiveness, but not just forgiveness for her ex husband, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:32.840 but also for her own healing journey as well. 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.160 Yeah, and it's also about the complex relationship surrounding cheating. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.440 We've often spoken about the fact that it's not straightforward 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.560 and there's not one black and white answer. We also 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.000 delve into the fact that she loved a narcissist. And 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.680 one thing that I found so surprising that we do 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.320 get into at the end is not only how she 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.280 handled the entire situation, but how she handled the end 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.200 when he passed away. And I won't get too much 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.079 into that, but for me, there were some really incredible 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:58.840 pivotal moments that I don't know if I would have 0:02:58.880 --> 0:02:59.520 done the same thing. 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.440 Yeah, And I think that that's what a lot of 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.280 people are going to be left when they leave. This 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.080 conversation today is going to be wondering what would you 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.799 do if you found yourself in this situation? Let's get 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.240 into the chat with Kirsten. I came across Kirsten via 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.120 social media and when I saw the title of her book, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.799 Loving My Lying, dying, Cheating Husband, I was so intrigued 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.920 by what this entails. And I think your story is 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.920 one that it will pull on so many people's heart strings. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:27.520 But like I said, it will really make your question 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.079 what would you do in this situation? Kirsten, Welcome to 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:30.679 the podcast. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.359 Thank you very much for having me. 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.680 It's our absolute pleasure and I cannot wait to dive 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.600 into this conversation. But before we do, everybody that comes 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.160 on the podcast gives us their accident, unfiltered, their embarrassing story, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.040 and I know the conversation is about to get pretty heavy, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:51.000 but before we get into that, please embarrass yourself oh 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:52.760 and humbling. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.320 Yeah, exactly. So when you told me to prepare embarrassing 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.000 the story, I thought there's so many but I couldn't 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.880 think of what because I'm a walking embarrass very often. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.080 But I did. I don't believe it, but I did 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.520 think about the time that I volunteered to give up 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.240 TED talk, and it was the pandemic and I was 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.400 stranded in Australia. I was living in Vietnam at the time, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.720 and my wardrobe was very reduced. So what to wear? 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.120 So I found a dress in the op shop and 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.200 I spent the entire month rehearsing my talk, not really 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.960 thinking about the dress. I had it dry cleaned because 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:25.680 I looked in every shop, so in the end it 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.880 came from the op shop, and so I went to 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.599 the venue put it on, and I realized I hadn't 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.200 really checked whether the brass straps would be showing or not. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.320 This is like half an hour before going on stage. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.000 I finally checked and it looked like an op shop 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.520 dress with brass straps showing. So I thought, what do 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.599 you do? You know, I'm a woman of a certain age, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.479 so I can't really go on there looking like this. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:51.159 So I thought, okay, I went backstage. I went to 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.839 the room where the workers have the props, and I 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.800 found a roll of duct tape and took the braw 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:58.600 and I taped my nipples down. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.599 You've all been there, I reckon, I've been. 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.680 So that I was thinking in this context is probably 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.200 not really embarrassing, but for me it was highly embarrassing 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.640 because then I had to go into the room and 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.480 the guy had to mic me up, and I was like, ah, well, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.279 I can't really open my dress because I'm not wearing 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.080 a bra, but I couldn't tell him either, so I 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:15.560 sort of. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.760 He's like trying to find somebody to clip a microphone onto, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:18.960 and you can, like, you can stick it in my 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:19.960 duct tape. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.680 I said, I'm very private, I'll do it myself. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.880 So can I say if you put the roll duct 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:27.320 tape or you put duct tape, if you put the 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.400 wrong tape on your nipples, you will know about it 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.640 because they've they've got special nipple tape, right, But if 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.280 you're putting it down with some like hardcore hardware, when 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.240 you've ripped that off, you know about. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.000 Duct tape can rip paint off the walls alone. What 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:39.440 it can do to you when you try and take 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:40.120 that stuff off. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.240 Well, that was the next part of the embarrassment, because 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.279 I was so hyped up after the talk because it 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:45.840 was a TED talk, so it was like one of 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.520 this once in a lifetime opportunities I forget to take 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.000 it off. So the next morning, the pain and the embarrassment. 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:53.000 What have I done? 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.000 I had forgotten Casin. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:56.960 I would love to know before we get into your story, 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.760 who you were before you met your husband. How does 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.760 a German who is an expert in Italian end up 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:05.440 in Australia. 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.880 Yeah, well, good question. I grew up in Germany in 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.839 the seventies. It was a very grim place. It was 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.279 post war. It was very cold. I mean it's still cold. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.120 And I just had this feeling I was born in 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.400 the wrong country. So I had this strong calling. As 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.640 soon as I finished school, I needed to get out 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.279 of there. And for some reason I was brave enough 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.680 to just book a typic on my own. This is 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.560 before we had phones, you know, mobile phones, early eighties. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.360 To Jakarta, of all places, and I ended up there 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.480 by myself. I spent a year in Bali in eighty seven. 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:38.159 Wow, what a different place then. 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.159 I don't think there was any yoga in or what 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.920 then I can't remember. And then I thought, Okay, Australia 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.039 is the next destination. So yeah, and so then I 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.320 came to Sydney and I saw the blue sky and 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.960 that was it. I needed to live in Australia. 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.120 In your description about yourself, and it was one of 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.080 the things that I thought, it really jumped out of me. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:57.920 And it's kind of a sidestep from what we're going 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.760 to be talking about. But you described yoursel as childless 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.400 by choice. Yeah, what does that mean to you? And 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.359 I guess like of a time and of an age 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.800 when there was almost the expectation that women just have children. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.480 When you say it was your choice, was it something 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.400 that you always knew that you were like, kids are 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:13.840 not for me. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.160 I think it was my mother who put that idea 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.600 into my head very early on, because she, I think, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.760 got frustrated that she got stuck in a marriage at 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.080 you know, twenty three. I mean it was a different 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.720 generation when, and that meant she had to then look 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.160 after these unmanageable kids. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:31.760 Who just ran off and left her once they reached 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:33.200 a certain age exactly. 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.840 But it was also once I lived in Australia, I realized, 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:37.920 you know, I was doing all of this on my own. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.080 So I was putting myself through university on my own 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.920 because I'd sort of basically run away from home. I thought, 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.280 if I have kids, then everything's going to cost me 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.240 double as in going back to Germany, because in those 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.400 days it was air travel, you know, it wasn't so common, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.000 you know, to just jump on a plane. And also 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.440 I think my mother's experience, she said, oh, you know, marriages, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.160 I don't know they're trapped. I don't get trapped. And 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.800 I just thought, I haven't yet found the right man, 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.960 and I want to be that I can imagine being 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.880 with until this human being I put into the world 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.640 will be twenty or ready to be on their own. Yeah. 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.720 Can I ask you very personal, but do you now, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.520 in hindsight, have any regrets about not having children or 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.480 do you still feel wholeheartedly that you made the right decision. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.000 Yeah. Interesting. I have quite a lot of younger friends 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.600 who are still in their sort of thirties who asked me, 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.160 you know, should I have a kid? Maybe not, because. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:34.280 Yeah, I'm asking for me basically. 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.880 Yeah, so my good friends, I do boot camp with them, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.840 we go on you know, these bike rides and so on, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.280 and I say, no, don't have kids. Just enjoy your 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.800 life that way you can. You know, you can enjoy it. 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.680 You can do whatever you want. You're not beholden. But 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:49.960 now that I'm at this point in my life. I 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.960 do miss the company of adult children. I have my 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.520 nephew and niece. They were very intelligent, lovely human beings, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.760 and if I had kids of my own, I think 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:00.840 I would enjoy being around them. 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:02.960 That's the thing that's so hard is because like kids 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.040 don't say kids forever, but it's a very big part 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:07.360 of the parenting experience. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:08.600 As having little children. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.400 Well, it's like saying, yeah, I want to have kids 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.439 and get through the first twenty five years so that 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.400 I could have a couple of years as adults. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.199 It doesn't really make sense. It's like just get a friend, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.520 you know, you're an adult friend totally. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.559 But I mean it's really important, and I think it's 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.160 really interesting because we've definitely had big conversations on this 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.400 podcast about being childless by choice, but it's always been 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.680 from people who have been within this age group, so 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.800 they're currently going through that process in that period of 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.200 like when all their friends have little kids. But it's 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.920 so interesting to hear about what's that like when all 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.120 of your friends and their little kids are our adults 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.000 and you can have a conversation with them and you 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.760 can have a relationship which goes beyond just wiping asses 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.280 and getting screened at all night exactly. 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:48.560 But you know, I was lucky enough. 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.040 I did take my niece traveling, and so I had 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.400 this girl, you know I've had I had it and 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.480 she came out from Germany and lived with me for 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.800 five months and went to school in Australia. So I 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.800 did have it. But I have to say I do 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.360 like little kids. I love them. And so I have 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.280 lots of friends who are in their thirties who needs 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.600 surrogate Grandma's. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.160 And You're like, yeah, I'm here, and then I'll hand 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:10.960 them back. When I need to hand them back. 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.920 I'm gonna say you love them because you can hand 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.319 them exactly. So what was your life like you had 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.439 moved here and how old were you when you met 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:19.480 your husband Gianni. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.920 Yeah, so I moved here in my twenties and then 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.280 I had a career and I lived here and lots 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.280 of things, and then we met when I was forty 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:34.040 three and I had actually just gone through early menopause. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.040 I was at work and suddenly I had this cruciating 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.040 pain in my abdomen and I went to the doctor 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.440 and she said, we need to take you over tomorrow 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.200 otherwise you'll love the comblem. Yeah, I had assist. I mean, 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.040 it happens, it's quite common. And then she said, you 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.040 have to now be prepared to enter meno. Pause. I'm like, wow, 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.560 I'm barely forty two. Maybe I was forty three, and 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.880 I was in denial. And then it throws you into 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.439 this depression because it was just came totally expected, and 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.040 also it meant I had to be at home. I 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.120 was living on my own and I was single. I 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.360 had just moved to Sydney. I was enjoying my single life. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.360 I kept saying, I'm in love with the city, not 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.760 a man. I don't need a man. I'm love with 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.240 the city. Love that. But you know, Sydney is a 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.080 hard city sometimes in that it's very large, so you 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.840 can get quite lonely when you're a workaholic, and then 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:23.520 you come home and your friends live on the other 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.600 side of the city and you know it takes hours 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.360 to catch up. So yeah, then that loneliness suddenly came 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.800 and I thought, hang on a minute, I think I 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.600 got everything the wrong way. I've forgot to have children. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.880 I forgot to have a family, even though it was 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.560 never really in my plan what life should have been 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.160 like at that moment, I thought, I have given everything 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.600 this career and where is it now bringing me chicken 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:48.800 soup while I'm on the couch. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.439 You know, Yeah, this is why you need that adult. 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:55.360 Kid exactly in that did you have a moment afterwards 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.319 where you decided to actively date or was meeting Johnny 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.439 a moment of like Sarah indipity almost. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.360 Yeah, I didn't go on to I guess it was 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.000 r swoop in at the Yeah, but only as a lurker, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.800 Like I didn't actually upload my profocus. What about if 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.679 my students see me and it's like as if they 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:12.880 would have checked out? 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.679 But no, that was a time when like online dating 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.760 was still a bit taboo and people kind of poop 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.480 poo died a little bit, and so it was kind 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.000 of hard to go online dating. 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.000 Poo pootera you can tell who has a little child? 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.960 Yeah, yeah, yes, But really, coming back to your question, 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.240 it was certain dipity. I was actually giving a talk 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.000 in front of an audience, and afterwards there was this. 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:38.280 Man who was exciting and different talk to me about chemistry, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.680 because I think sometimes chemistry, we have spoken about it 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.839 so much. Chemistry can make you feel as though you've 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.520 met your soulmate, that you and this person against the world. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.720 What was the chemistry that you experienced when you met Johnny? 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.480 Yeah, I think it was instant, as in he had 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.920 these green eyes, which for an Italian is unusual, and 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.520 they were really sparkling, and they were sparkling with mischief. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.320 And I still remember we were at the buffet after 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.800 I had given this talk, in this lovely venue with 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.120 a you know, view of the harbor, so everything was 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.760 like very glamorous in the sense it was a typical 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.679 sort of Sydney moment. And he poured me a glass 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.840 of wine from the bottle of the buffet. But the 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:17.480 way he looked at me, it was like as if 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.080 he had stolen it, like a little boy. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:19.719 He had this. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.920 Boyishness about him, and yet he was actually thirteen years 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.480 older than me. But that boyish energy also meant he 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.000 was full of excitement and he wanted adventure, as in 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.320 we both shared a love for travel. And he told 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.440 me he had just come off a bike ride all 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.920 around Australia on a yellow Harley Davidson. I was like, oh, okay, 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:39.560 you're different. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:40.400 You're a bad boy. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.080 You're a bad boy, and I love riding motorbikes too. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.280 I'd never written a Hali Davidson, but you know, I 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.720 grew up on bikes, something smaller bikes. But I still 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.520 I thought, oh, yeah, I'd do that with you, no worries. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.160 I thought you gonna say I would do that like him. 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.079 Yeah I did that. That's the same thing, the same thought. Yeah, 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.440 So how long did you date for him? Was this 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:00.760 a well win romance? 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:00.880 Like? 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.080 What was the initial dating period like with him? 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.400 Yeah, it was a whirlwind. I guess I was ready 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.040 for a whirlwind because I felt like, okay, you know 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:12.160 that sort of experience of that early it was perimenopause, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.000 could say, but I wasn't expecting it because it was early. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.880 My doctor said it's ten years too early. Had sort 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.560 of made me feel like, what's happening here? Am I old? 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.400 This is it? And then suddenly I was feeling completely 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.680 seen and heard. And he was the kind of person 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:32.320 who showered me in compliments, in attention and in gifts, 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.320 and he also did all those things, you know, taking 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.000 me to beautiful dinners, to I don't know, the opera house, 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.400 all of those things, and it just made me feel 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.560 like magic, like i'd suddenly swapped this role from sitting 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.440 on the couch, you know, moping, and then suddenly I 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.680 am the lead in an Italian rom com. 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:52.120 This is the pot of gold at the end of 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:52.960 the rainbow burst. 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.040 You hear that actually so often, and we've talked about 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.040 doing a hire episode around it. But women in their 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.600 forties and fifties where they feel like they're being replaced 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.920 by the younger generation and they don't feel seen anymore 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.640 or heard, or desired or wanted, and all of a sudden, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.640 this man swoops in. Who and I'm jumping ahead here. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.240 Who sounds from the characteristics a bit like a narcissist 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.520 love bombing. Are going to give them everything they want, 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.320 going to make them feel like they're the only person 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.000 in the world. And we find out soon that you weren't, 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.680 unfortunately the only person. Can you say, now, in hindsight, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:25.480 do you think. 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:26.360 He was a narcissist? 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:27.560 Yes, definitely. 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.720 I mean I was trying to ease into that. Oh yeah, well, 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:32.120 I think. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.560 I could write a PhD about narcissism by not because 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.960 I have researched it thoroughly, I wasn't really aware of 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.960 the narcissistic personality profile at that time, and I just 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.480 couldn't see it. I just thought, I mean, yes, I thought, well, 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.040 he's a bit over the top, but you know, he 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.360 was Italian. He was meant to be melodramatic. It sort 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.600 of came with the territory, you know, that was part 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.880 of his persona. So I did not see it for 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.920 a long time. Obviously, now I know what love bombing is. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.760 Back then, I didn't know. I just thought, wow, you know, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.160 he feels like he's found you know, for both of us. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.240 We were saying, oh, this is a second chance, you know, 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.440 in love, and we're both older second time around. 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:10.720 You know. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.800 I think that this conversation, though, like your story is 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.920 so different to anything that we've spoken about. When we've 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.280 spoken about narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder or anyone who 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.400 has like traits within the scale of it, the response 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.000 is always to leave like that it's not possible to 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:28.960 have a relationship with someone who's a narcissist. That you 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.520 need to create as much distance as possible. But the 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.200 very real reality is is that there are people who 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.840 fall in love with narcissists and then spend their life 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.920 trying to make that work. Or discovering things about them 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.360 that don't necessarily meet up to the person that you 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.600 think that they were or that they are. You were 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.080 together for was it only two years? 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.880 All up? I think it was four or five? 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.120 Two years of being married, was it? And then he 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:55.359 received a diagnosis? 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.280 Yes, yes, that's right, yes, yeah, Well so how did 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.240 we get to engagement in the wedding? 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.800 So how many years were you together before that happened? 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.800 Everything happened very quickly in the sense I think in 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:11.000 hindsight he probably talked about marriage from the minute we met, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.399 but only in that exuberance, Oh my god, you know 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.000 you're the woman I marry you. I'm going to marry you. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:18.720 You know you're the person I want to spend the 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.679 rest of what's left of my life with. Now I 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.320 got off at the dream job. I was an academic 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.520 at a university in Sydney, and we had entered a 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.480