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Speaker 1: You are never the person who's suffering the most. Ever.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, So your first ex husband yes, is now with

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Speaker 2: your best friend?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's something that is unique to a woman, right

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Speaker 1: and for time and eternity will be. I feel like

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Speaker 1: there's such an epidemic of victimhood happening at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and it really worries me.

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Speaker 2: Do you then look at either a food creation or

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Speaker 2: a painting you've done and then identify though, what emotion

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Speaker 2: you're going through or what emotion you are expressing.

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Speaker 1: And on the twelfth week, it was literally on the

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Speaker 1: day that I could tell people I lost the baby.

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Speaker 3: Sharing how you're going is one of the best things

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Speaker 3: you can do for your mental health, but when you.

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Speaker 2: Most need to tell someone how you're going, it's often

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Speaker 2: the hardest thing to do.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't address how you are, your feelings

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Speaker 3: confester and lead to things like anxiety, depression, even suicide.

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Speaker 3: In this podcast, we ask a range of firing people

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Speaker 3: how they express themselves in the hope that we can

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Speaker 3: all learn something more about arguably life's most important skill,

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Speaker 3: to ask yourself, how am I feeling? How do I

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Speaker 3: express how I'm feeling? How do I share my.

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Speaker 4: Mood, Poe, welcome to share my mood.

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Speaker 1: Guys, Jenny had me around like weeks ago. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me back.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we liked you so much.

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Speaker 4: As the door closed, we were like, got to get

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Speaker 4: her back.

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Speaker 1: You know what I thought the same.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I really really loved it.

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Speaker 1: Honestly awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, all we were thinking was it would be

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Speaker 2: so nice to sit down for a more extended period

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Speaker 2: of time, just go further all the areas that we touch,

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Speaker 2: so we finally have that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, we love long form because I'm a

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Speaker 1: bit of a you know, I'd bang on a lot,

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Speaker 1: like I'd like to tell stories.

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Speaker 2: You're an entertaining bangerna though, if we get back. The

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Speaker 2: worst thing something can be is when they are a

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Speaker 2: banger or and it's like it's not interesting bangering on,

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Speaker 2: But you are an interesting bangeren on r U, so.

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Speaker 5: So feel free to bang on.

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Speaker 3: Thank Yeah, that's the purpose. This is a bang on podcast.

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Speaker 3: You're right, though, those people that lose that social inhibition,

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Speaker 3: you know, and they're like you know, when they're like

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Speaker 3: they're going and like you're looking around the circle going,

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Speaker 3: everyone is dead in the eye.

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Speaker 1: No one it's finding this compelling and you can't even

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Speaker 1: here how.

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Speaker 4: Do they keep? Guy?

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Speaker 5: I know, it's amazing, Like how you're not picking up

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Speaker 5: on the cues from everyone?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Well, look, so the idea

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Speaker 3: of this podcast really is too we kind of agree

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Speaker 3: that we think that sharing how you're going is pretty

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Speaker 3: much the most important thing that people can do for

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Speaker 3: their mental health. And it's kind of how you identify

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Speaker 3: what you're going through or how you are, and then

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Speaker 3: how you express that, I think is really pivot to

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Speaker 3: everybody's happiness. And there's no right way to go about

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Speaker 3: it either, which is really cool. And I think you're

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Speaker 3: such a great guest for this podcast because so clearly

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Speaker 3: you have found ways to express yourself in all sorts

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Speaker 3: of different ways. And I want to start by asking

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Speaker 3: about probably something that people wouldn't know you necessarily for

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Speaker 3: they might, but is your artwork. Yeah, which is clearly

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Speaker 3: important to you and clearly a way that once you

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Speaker 3: started painting and having a look at what your stuff

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Speaker 3: now I know that there's a motive or a theme

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Speaker 3: within that which is clearly you accessing something that you

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Speaker 3: probably might or may not be able to talk about,

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Speaker 3: but through the artwork you can express yourself. Yes, Can

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Speaker 3: you talk to me about how art provides a role

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Speaker 3: for you to Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like art is almost my best friend

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Speaker 1: because I'm never lonely with that, I always have a

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Speaker 1: way to express and in my express my ideas. But

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Speaker 1: also I like to sort of embed secrets within the

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Speaker 1: art work, and it's like I have a relationship with

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Speaker 1: the work, so it's things that I would And what's

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Speaker 1: interesting is it does, even though it's unspoken and it

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Speaker 1: feels like it's embedded, people will pick up on it

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Speaker 1: if they're looking for that thing or there's a frequency

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Speaker 1: that they're tapping into, and it's so not everyone will

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Speaker 1: have it. But like that's why I don't. I hesitate

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Speaker 1: to talk about what my work the meaning behind my

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Speaker 1: work too much because I feel like too much of

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Speaker 1: that happens, especially with modern art.

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Speaker 4: And I tell you exactly what it's about looking for.

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Speaker 1: It, or tell you nothing in a way that's like

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Speaker 1: quite sort of pompous.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's I wouldn't get it. Yeah, Like it's.

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Speaker 1: Designed to make you feel alienated and stupid kind of thing.

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Speaker 5: You're not picking up on it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's shoe with a bit of poo stuck

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Speaker 1: to it on a plint. It's about, you know, world peace.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I saw I saw a banana sticky tape to a

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Speaker 2: wall at a gallery recently, and I was like, come on,

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, did you feel alienated that I did?

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Speaker 5: Go on?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, it's not so so I like it.

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Speaker 1: I like to just because like my work's not. It's figurative, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's like you can see it's a girl, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing whatever.

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Speaker 4: And it's always this same girl.

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Speaker 1: It's always the same girl.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess I always hesitate.

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Speaker 3: Pipy long stockings by the way, everyone, but.

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Speaker 1: I always hesitate to say she's me. But it's more

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Speaker 1: like I use her as a device to tell my

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Speaker 1: story cool, because I think it's too close to say

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Speaker 1: that she is me. It feels a bit I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It makes me feel a bit weird.

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Speaker 1: So I I've lost my train of thought already.

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Speaker 4: Goodd So you know that's right.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to tell be too prescriptive about

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Speaker 1: what how people receive it. So it's just up to them,

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Speaker 1: like there's if nothing they can just because people always go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about art. They get real self conscious,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I just kind of like it for

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Speaker 1: the colors. I'm like, great, just like it for that.

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Speaker 1: Then you know, you don't have to feel crap about it,

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Speaker 1: like just like the colors or the way it makes

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Speaker 1: you feel, you know. And it's like food, like everyone

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Speaker 1: thinks there's such a there's a whole thing to anything

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Speaker 1: that's in the arts. I think people get a little

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Speaker 1: bit anxious about if they don't feel like they're educated

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Speaker 1: in that food or whatever, and it's really just a

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Speaker 1: process of like consuming it, you know, and whatever tastes

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Speaker 1: good to you is good. I mean I do that.

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Speaker 1: I do that now for a living as a judge,

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Speaker 1: but like outside of that situation because we have to

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Speaker 1: have a set of obviously a system to judge the

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Speaker 1: competition by, but outside of that, I've become more and

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Speaker 1: more lax as to like I'm like, if it tastes

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Speaker 1: good to you, it's good. If that looks good to you,

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Speaker 1: it's good. Like whatever floats your boat, go for it,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 4: But it's funny that like that.

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Speaker 3: I think this is what's beautiful about art and maybe

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Speaker 3: about food as well, is that it can come from

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Speaker 3: a very specific place and you might not know necessarily

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Speaker 3: what that thing is when you're going through it if

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Speaker 3: you sit down to well anyone, like you know, I

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Speaker 3: know a lot of people cook when they're feeling anxious

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Speaker 3: or feeling stressed. People do the same with painting, I

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Speaker 3: know with your partner. Mim obviously paints a lot as well.

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Speaker 2: And really, yeah, I find I find watching Mim paint

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Speaker 2: fascinating as well, because clearly it's like se she clearly

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Speaker 2: uses the emotional part of her brain, which I've looked

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Speaker 2: into a little bit more that the limbic system of

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Speaker 2: the brain, which is totally different to the prefrontal cortex,

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Speaker 2: which is like the rational.

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Speaker 5: Part of your brain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so she is weirdly able to like hold a

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Speaker 2: rational conversation with me while emotionally pouring out onto a

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Speaker 2: bit of care. I don't know, because I've always said

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Speaker 2: to her, I'm like, how are you not You're not

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Speaker 2: concentrating right now on what you're doing, And she's.

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Speaker 5: Like, oh, I don't.

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Speaker 2: It's not thinking, no I'm doing, It's just pouring out

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Speaker 2: of me.

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Speaker 3: Do you know.

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Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with Chrissy's one about this,

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Speaker 1: and it's to do with I think the type of

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Speaker 1: it's a brain type and a lot of creative types

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Speaker 1: I think have this thing. She told me. It's called mirroring.

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Speaker 1: So it actually helps you to express when someone's in

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Speaker 1: the room not doing anything or just chatting to you

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Speaker 1: or whatever. So that might it might be that.

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Speaker 4: Does that work.

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Speaker 1: But also I think I've taken this off on a

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Speaker 1: completely huge tangent.

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Speaker 3: No reverse reverse, We are still talking about the same

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Speaker 3: thing here is expressing yourself through art or using your hands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And for the same reason I can be

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Speaker 1: watching them. Most people think I'm like listening to Bach

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Speaker 1: and like I like wa washing the trashiest TV and

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Speaker 1: like pumping out like what I think is beautiful, you know,

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Speaker 1: and expressing myself. So it's like, there's no it's just

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Speaker 1: whatever makes you feel comfortable. I think everyone works so differently.

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Speaker 1: It's all very everyone's comfort level that, you know, whatever

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Speaker 1: makes them feel comfortable to allow that to flow out

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 3: Is so so And back to what I was saying

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Speaker 3: at the start, you know, so the point of this

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Speaker 3: question is like you have a release afterwards. Though I

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Speaker 3: loved when you've finished painting, Yeah, definitely. Can you always

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Speaker 3: like name what that thing is or it just like

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Speaker 3: is it a it is?

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Speaker 1: I know this sounds really psycho, but it's like feeling

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Speaker 1: like a little god because it's It's what I love

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Speaker 1: about cooking as well, and it's to do with bringing

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Speaker 1: to life something that didn't exist. Right, It's a blank

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Speaker 1: canvas and now there is like a full human looking

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Speaker 1: thing in front of me. Or it was just a

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Speaker 1: bunch of rawing radiots and now there's like a plate

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Speaker 1: of food that someone is really enjoying.

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Speaker 4: Its wow.

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Speaker 1: So I love that feeling of creating something out of nothing,

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Speaker 1: and I find it very It really gives me a

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Speaker 1: natural high. Yeah, and it fills me with this very

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Speaker 1: kind of a spiritual gratitude, Like it really really affects me, like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Did you do you then look at either a food

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Speaker 2: creation or a painting you've done, and then identify though,

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Speaker 2: what emotion you're going through or what emotion you are expressing.

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Speaker 1: No, with food, I often am thinking of someone that

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Speaker 1: might enjoy that dish, and I really love imagining how

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Speaker 1: that might that they'll enjoy it. And with art, it's

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Speaker 1: more that it's it is kind of mindless in a way,

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Speaker 1: because I will see it's different because it sounds like

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Speaker 1: your partner paints in quite Is she quite splashy?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes with me, color splashed figurative in a way

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Speaker 2: like sometimes she'll do like a weird, quirky, cartoony thing,

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Speaker 2: but she's not really quite different to the other.

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Speaker 1: And she's kind of just figuring it out as she

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Speaker 1: goes along.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's very different to how I paint. I

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Speaker 1: I was trained as a designer, so the way I

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Speaker 1: paint is very I have a very clear preconceived idea

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Speaker 1: of what I'm putting on the canvas, like I plan it, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I sketched it out, and I translate that onto the

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Speaker 1: very to scale precisely with a graph, and there.

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Speaker 4: Not even a graph with my god.

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Speaker 1: Yes, don't pay come on, don't.

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Speaker 3: You're just looking at You're just disparaging the arts and

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Speaker 3: novels before.

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Speaker 4: And now look at you.

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Speaker 3: Australia, Australia.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, dancer.

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Speaker 4: No, no, it's nice. We're talking about art here.

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Speaker 1: And so it's quite different. But I I find that

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Speaker 1: quite No, No, I can see how that would work too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is it is working in different using different parts

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Speaker 1: of your brain.

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Speaker 3: That almost feels like the finally enough what you're how

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Speaker 3: you're saying mim paints is almost it sounds like almost

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Speaker 3: how you're making food pot in terms of like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: maybe pouring out release thing as opposed to strategically curating something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but still it's just that process of seeing something

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Speaker 1: that doesn't exist, that didn't exist prior emerge. I find

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Speaker 1: that a very and I.

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Speaker 3: And you said that that's a that generates, which I

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Speaker 3: find interesting, fascinating really in terms of this topic, because

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Speaker 3: I think this is so important for how people feel.

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Speaker 3: Is a sense of gratitude after you've finished making something.

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Speaker 1: I think that is such a key. Is it an

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Speaker 1: emotion or a state of mind? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think I think it's date of mind. I actually

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Speaker 3: think it's more of a muscle, if I'm being honest,

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Speaker 3: like a figurative muscle, if you're like gratitude, because I

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Speaker 3: don't think it doesn't come naturally. Well, some people you

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Speaker 3: meet and they walk outside and they're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: the day, the people, these clothes.

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Speaker 4: And you know, they're lovely to be around. For like

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Speaker 4: five minutes, and then you're like, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: You know sometimes if you're on their wavelength, can you

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Speaker 3: can feel that if you're not on their wavelength?

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Speaker 4: You know, like what he walks in here and he's like,

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Speaker 4: oh my every day, what a morning?

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Speaker 5: And I need to pull it back sometimes sometimes.

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Speaker 3: You are, yeah, I know, where's someone like me? Like

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Speaker 3: I have to actively practice gratitude. You know, when I

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Speaker 3: meditate in the morning, I have to think of someone

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Speaker 3: who I want to be more peaceful around. And then

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Speaker 3: I've got to be like, Okay, let's do this so

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Speaker 3: that you can be you're grateful for them. Let's do

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Speaker 3: this so that you can be more peaceful around them.

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Speaker 3: So it's not something that you can access easily. So

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Speaker 3: I think it's funny. I don't think I've ever thought

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Speaker 3: about cooking or artwork as a way to practice gratitude,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's almost inevitable that when you do

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Speaker 3: doing something with your hands, that's not kind of and

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Speaker 3: I think this is going to be an important point

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Speaker 3: to talk about as well, that's not kind of outcome focused.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're just making the food. You're enjoying making

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Speaker 3: the food. Same with the artwork. Probably you know that's

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Speaker 3: obviously it's a cliche to say that that ego is

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Speaker 3: the death of art. As soon as you start thinking

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Speaker 3: about how it's going to be perceived or how it is, yes,

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Speaker 3: then you look like the gratitude just gets cut at

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Speaker 3: the knees because you're kind of cutting off that channel.

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Speaker 3: But do you think that, like your mood, your mental

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Speaker 3: health and being in touch with how you're feeling is

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Speaker 3: drastically improved through this sense of gratitude. And do you

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Speaker 3: think you have such a strong sense of gratitude because

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Speaker 3: of what you do? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think I think I was just gonna say that.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, if you can train yourr that muscle,

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Speaker 1: I think it is key to good mental health is

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Speaker 1: gratitude because gratitude brings it to you knowing that you

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Speaker 1: are a dot in the firmament and every time you

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Speaker 1: think how like I think it's as balance of thinking

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Speaker 1: you can make change, but also realizing that you are

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Speaker 1: never the person who's suffering the most ever and living

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Speaker 1: in Australia like you literally you can't complain. I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that because there are some people in terrible situations

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Speaker 1: that we wouldn't even be able to imagine. So there's

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Speaker 1: always an exception, but for the most part, we live

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Speaker 1: in an affluent country with like good social services and

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Speaker 1: and like there's just kind of almost always a solution,

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Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, I think when we think, when

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Speaker 1: we try to think about always how lucky we are,

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Speaker 1: like it just always grounds you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's a great dissolving agent, isn't it. I think I

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Speaker 3: heard in a podcas recently that you're listening to a

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Speaker 3: podcast on a smartphone right now, there's a billion people

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Speaker 3: who would actively trade places with.

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Speaker 4: You right now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so true.

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Speaker 4: So if you are.

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Speaker 3: Listening to this, there are a billion people who would

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Speaker 3: like to trade places with you.

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Speaker 4: A billion. Yeah, that's the entire population of India.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So it's actually one of my favorite topics

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Speaker 1: to talk about when in social situations because I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's such an epidemic of victimhood happening at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and it really worries me because and it's rife with

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Speaker 1: the younger jen, but I'm even feeling it with people

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Speaker 1: sort of just a bit younger than me because there's

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Speaker 1: just so much around because of social media now that

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Speaker 1: makes everything spread like wildfire. And I was listening to

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Speaker 1: this now I can't remember where, but and this guy

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Speaker 1: was talking about how there is so much like medical

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Speaker 1: like sort of psych terminalology woven into our everyday of

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Speaker 1: vernacula now that people are just are using them to

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Speaker 1: form tribes and to.

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Speaker 4: Sort of like lean self diagnosing and.

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Speaker 1: Lean into things that giving names to things that are

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Speaker 1: that are actually and pathologizing things that are normal, things

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Speaker 1: that you go through life that fill you with anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Going to school. Oh my god, I freaking hated school.

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Speaker 1: And I was so anxious from tiny till like high school,

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Speaker 1: all the way through high school because I was always

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Speaker 1: like a little bit on the outer right. And when

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Speaker 1: we give people a place, when we allow we want

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Speaker 1: people to rise above it and to acknowledge it and

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Speaker 1: to work through it. But like I think, like when

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Speaker 1: you give someone like a term or some kind of

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Speaker 1: pathology to name it, it allows them just to sit

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Speaker 1: in it and go, yeah, I've got.

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Speaker 4: That's what I've got. Yeah I'm.

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Speaker 1: It.

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Speaker 3: And if i'm not, if i'm not, if i haven't

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Speaker 3: got somebody looking after it for me, then it's I'm

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Speaker 3: just gonna die in the ass.

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Speaker 2: It's a story they tell themselves, and it almost like

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Speaker 2: becomes this self sourcing pudding.

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Speaker 5: Yeah exactly, I've got that. And now I'm going to

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Speaker 5: lean right into that rather than thinking.

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Speaker 1: How can I fix this? Yeah, I need to fix this,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna fix itself, and.

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Speaker 2: Becomes an identity that like I am that I have that, yes,

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Speaker 2: and and almost like the idea of separating yourself from

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Speaker 2: that is a bit scary because it's like what am

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Speaker 2: I or who am I?

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Speaker 5: If I don't have this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah yeah, And you're saying you need to fix it, right,

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Speaker 3: But that's not necessarily a good thing either, is this

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Speaker 3: idea of like, I've got to iron spend my time

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Speaker 3: fixing it.

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Speaker 1: Not not fixing it, but like finding things to displace

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Speaker 1: that anxiety. So find things that you love to do,

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Speaker 1: sue that, listen to it, listen to it.

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Speaker 5: It's a good yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the best thing to do to

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Speaker 1: sue that with is to do something that you love,

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Speaker 1: do something that makes you feel useful and makes you

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Speaker 1: feel makes you feel validated, not by anyone else, but

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Speaker 1: makes yourself feel validated about this.

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Speaker 2: Idea of you and doing things that make you make

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Speaker 2: you feel happy. And then can I ask you about relationships.

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Speaker 2: You comfortable talking about past relationship Yeah. So you've had

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Speaker 2: two divorces, yes, And I've heard you talk about the

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Speaker 2: fact that within these relationships you were and please tell

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Speaker 2: me if I'm using words wrong, but losing this sense

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Speaker 2: of individuality, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Losing myself with the first one who I'm he's still

390
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Speaker 1: my right or die Matt like we like and we

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Speaker 1: still have like the hugest domestics in front of his partner,

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Speaker 1: who's my best friend. That's not part of the whole.

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Speaker 4: Awesome weird story.

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Speaker 5: Sorry, sorry, sorry, het.

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Speaker 2: So your first first ex husband, yes, is now with

396
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Speaker 2: your best friend?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Wow, and then you're all still good, amazing, amazing.

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Speaker 1: So he that's great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think that's personally.

403
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Speaker 3: I think that's a mark of a really manture person

404
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 3: is when I meet them and then they're like, oh,

405
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Speaker 3: you know, you find out that a person you've been

406
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 3: hanging out with is there ex but it's like we're

407
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 3: just so much bigger than what was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Because I think if you fully I believe that

409
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Speaker 1: if you haven't been able to metabolize like whatever was

410
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: causing you the grief, it's still always there and it's

411
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Speaker 1: so and it's like, I think it's unresolved love, so

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00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: you have to actually work through it and transform it

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Speaker 1: into something else for it to be healthy, so you

414
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: can both move on. Because I think when people are

415
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Speaker 1: still triggered by their partners, I think there's something about

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00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: them that still has a hold over them, and you

417
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,479
Speaker 1: want to be rid of that, you know, so that

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Speaker 1: you're an empty vessel to be like go on to

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Speaker 1: your new relationship.

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Speaker 3: With I feel like I got some really good advice

421
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Speaker 3: around that once, which was that like, the fastest way

422
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Speaker 3: to kind of get over someone is to realize that

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Speaker 3: you'll always love them. Oh that's beautiful, rather than thinking

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Speaker 3: that like, oh, I'm going to get over it, because

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00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 3: the English we always say when we get over them,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, well, no, you kind of got to

427
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Speaker 3: go through yes them rather than over them because you're

428
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Speaker 3: always going to love them.

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Speaker 4: It might just feel differently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how I felt. I mean, having

431
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Speaker 1: said that, like, I always take into consideration that we

432
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 1: didn't have kids, so that always helps things get less new. Yeah, sure,

433
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: because that's a really difficult situation to manage, and I

434
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: don't know what that feels like, but I imagine it

435
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: would be wrought with a lot of heightened emotions because

436
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: new partners come in and then you know them calling them.

437
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Speaker 2: Mom, and the way the child's been raised exactly this

438
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Speaker 2: way and exactly and even with we've both got small

439
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: daughters now, and it's amazing how there's all these new

440
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: disagreements you can have with your partner, all of that

441
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 2: because not necessarily about a you and me thing, it's

442
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: about it, Oh, you're treating our daughter like this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was kind of thinking it should be that way.

444
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

445
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: It's you know, even within a couple that's still together,

446
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: that brings a whole bunch of other tricky things.

447
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

448
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you were talking so so the quote that

449
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: I saw, sorry, was about this idea of you having individuality.

450
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: Yes, so I think that, like for the first relationship,

451
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: that's when I identified that it was getting really unhealthy

452
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: because I was getting so lost in the dysfunction that

453
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize myself anymore, and I was just reacting

454
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: all the time. I was just so easily we could

455
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: just push each other's buttons and just you could have

456
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 1: an argument about this that that like, it was just

457
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: insane and that's when I'm like, I'm getting lost in

458
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: this like bitterness and I need to find myself again.

459
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: And so when we finally broke up, it was I

460
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, this is so cool because

461
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: we now get to like keep all the things that

462
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: we still love about each other, because we loved each

463
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: other's company, like we were great friends, but as a

464
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 1: marriage it just didn't work. So we got to just

465
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: throw all the bad things in the bin and keep

466
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: all the good things great. And then when he ended

467
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: up being with Sara, everyone was like, oh my god,

468
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: like how are you dealing with that? And I was like,

469
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: it's fine, Like it did. I'm not I'm a human,

470
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: so like it did, you know, felt a bit odd

471
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: at the beginning, But at the same time, I really

472
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: I love that he was with someone that I loved,

473
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: you know, like better than someone that I didn't like.

474
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: And I was like, if I choose to be offended

475
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: by this, it does. It's not even rational. It's me

476
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: hanging onto old garbage that I actually wanted in the bin,

477
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: and I'm like getting all the putting her back into

478
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: my house. Why would I do that? That's like insane,

479
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: So I yeah, that's how I sort of work through that.

480
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 3: What you've said, there is actually something really lovely that

481
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: I think's tied in with like to be so self

482
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: aware of your relationship like that.

483
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 4: I think is unique because I think I was listening to.

484
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 3: God this podcast come up twice now on this show,

485
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: but it's a good podcast. On Daria Ceo, I was

486
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 3: listening to Esta Parell talk and she's so good, so good,

487
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: And she was saying that she obviously if you don't

488
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 3: know who she is, she's psychotherapist. She works in relationships.

489
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: She was saying, she finds it really funny when people

490
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: walk in. She sees a couple and they walk in

491
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: and like, one of the first things I'll say is

492
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 3: that they're adamant that they're individuals. And she's like, well,

493
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 3: you're not, because you've chosen to be with someone, and

494
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: as soon as you choose to be with someone, who

495
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 3: you are is defined entirely by the pattern that you've

496
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 3: agreed to be in with that person. Yeah, and she

497
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: was like, if you think of it like a figure

498
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: eight loop, you both feed the loop and then people

499
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: break up when the loop's broken. So like when one

500
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: of you goes okay, I don't like the way that

501
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: this keeps coming.

502
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 4: Back to me.

503
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 3: And it's exactly what you said. You were like, just

504
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: everything just get coming back in the same way. So

505
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 3: to realize that, I think it's enormous and I think

506
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: that that kind of ties in with I'm struck by

507
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 3: our mindful you are because you keep Kate Langbrook sort

508
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: of touched on this a bit last when we spoke

509
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: to her last about the guys who were the band

510
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 3: playing on the Titanic when the Titanic was going down,

511
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: and I think like in your life, you although this

512
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 3: becomes really true when you're going through a really tough moment,

513
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: you do have a choice, like she was saying, you know,

514
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 3: the guys in the Titanic, you know, like this is

515
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: an awful moment. We can despair here and we can

516
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: you know, jump on the door or try and jump

517
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: on the door or whatever space is left, or we

518
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: can play the music. And it's funny when you were

519
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: talking about your breakup there, she was talking about her

520
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 3: son being really sick that you have a choice. It's like,

521
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: I can either despair in this and this is awful

522
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 3: and you know, my ex's with my best friend, or

523
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 3: you can. You can choose, but I don't think that

524
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: you get that choice unless you're spending time being aware

525
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: of what you're thinking and what you're feeling.

526
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 4: Do you consciously do that?

527
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: I do, And I think it's because I've always had

528
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: careers where I had that space to do it.

529
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

530
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I've always naturally, I think by design, but naturally. Yeah.

531
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what fed into what. But I've never

532
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: ever wanted to have an office job because I've always

533
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: known that I need that room around work to process life.

534
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: And if it starts to get really hectic, I find it.

535
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: I need a lot of time to think because I

536
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: am a quite solitary person. But that's what gives me,

537
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: just that reprieve and I can just figure stuff out

538
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: have space.

539
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: So what do you when you say you have time

540
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: alone to process and feel And I'm the same, what's

541
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: going on?

542
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 5: What are you actually doing?

543
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: Painting, cooking, gardening, all the things that I do for work?

544
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.

545
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: And that's and and by doing those things, you're you're

546
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: then ruminating or just allowing them out.

547
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah.

548
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: And I'm always very curious, like I'm good at removing

549
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: myself from the situation. And I like, go on, it's weird,

550
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: like flew off the handle of it, that.

551
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 4: Such safety in interest isn't there.

552
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so curious. I love like, I love figuring

553
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: stuff out because I have a deep I have absolute

554
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: faith that everything is connected and I know and I

555
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: and if I think hard enough, there's a solution and

556
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: I can trace as to the origin of the issue.

557
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I just use those times. And it's

558
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: just that thing of.

559
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 4: Just being for something else.

560
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: And your mind has to not be thinking hard. It

561
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: has to just be react so that those thoughts can emerge,

562
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: come and go and come and go yeah, in a yeah,

563
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: in a very sort of organic way, And that's when

564
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: they are the most truthful, I find.

565
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: I think that's a really good point for people to see.

566
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

567
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, like busy yourself foremost and don't force it, don't

568
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: force it. But then do you do you then will

569
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: you write it down? Like after you have a bit

570
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 2: of an aha moment, fly off the handles with someone

571
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: and you've then you've gardened the garden looks amazing, and

572
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: you've had the moment where you're like, I understand why

573
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: I did that? Do you then go and write that

574
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: down or do you Sometimes I.

575
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: Do, sometimes I don't. And now, oh my god, I'm

576
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: so all over the place where I've got like a

577
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: thousand notebooks with one note in it, so I'll never

578
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: be able to collate them because I don't even know

579
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: where they are, and my note section will be like

580
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: it'll be like by dark chocolate to bake cake. And

581
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: then it'll be like, oh, wisdom, it can't be earned.

582
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 5: It can't be taught.

583
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 4: It has to be earned, like you know, these random

584
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: things through this.

585
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Everywhere.

586
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: And you know what's so funny is I think I

587
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: often used to see those people who had like minds

588
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: like that, like you know friends of mine that they're

589
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: they're artists or musicians off the and or they've.

590
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 4: Got great gardens for that matter.

591
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: And you go into their house and you look at

592
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: like their filing system and you're like, you are fucking nowhere,

593
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: like how are you?

594
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 4: How are you doing your tax return?

595
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: How are you?

596
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: You know, like those people, but I know you are.

597
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 4: I realized that.

598
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: It's a miracle when people go, oh, you've had one

599
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: bit of you know, success.

600
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know how I got but they're the

601
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 4: people that.

602
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: Have got it figured out because they realize that there's

603
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: this like inevitable disaster slash like wild goose chase that

604
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: goes on in like actively hunting your thoughts for some

605
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: sort of sense of purpose or reason or answer because

606
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 3: you never get there.

607
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 1: But don't you think that's that is with life in general?

608
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: I feel like when you force anything, something always goes

609
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: a bit wrong or a lot wrong.

610
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, whether it.

611
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: Be love or whatever. Because this friend said to me recently,

612
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: and I think it's so clever. She said, like with life,

613
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: you want to be like a magnet. You don't want

614
00:30:59,360 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: to be chase.

615
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

616
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: Nice, because when you're chasing, you'll allowing your emotions to

617
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: take control, whereas when things come to you you can

618
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: consider your position whether you want it, is this good

619
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: for me? But when you're chasing, you're in this state

620
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: of mind that I feel is canceling out rational ration.

621
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: You put the blinkers on a little bit, and if

622
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 2: I've been chasing something so badly, it's like something an

623
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: opportunity will arise.

624
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 5: I won't even see it. Yeah, that's not part of

625
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 5: the plan.

626
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: And I think that I want to bring you back

627
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: to what you said about being curious, which is for me,

628
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: sort of this quality in your mind of being interested

629
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: is such a safe place because it kind of naturally

630
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: disassociates you from what you're feeling. Because if you're happy

631
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: about what's going on, you're holding onto it, or you're

632
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: like angry about what's going on, you're pushing where you're

633
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: creating a reaction and then you're creating another emotion. But

634
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 3: if you're interested, you naturally you disassociate from what you're feeling,

635
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: like it creates this like like what we used to

636
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: call in this school ground bali where you're like, oh,

637
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm actually not going to react to that.

638
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go I'm like, Wow, that's going on.

639
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: That's so interesting. I can't believe that's happening right now.

640
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: And you're doing it from a place that's not in

641
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: the same space as that thing.

642
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 4: It's from a different spot.

643
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: So now I really want to ask you because I

644
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: think that's a really beautiful way to approach what's going

645
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: on inside you and to identify how you're feeling. But

646
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: that can be really really tricky when you're going through

647
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: something that's drawing you in like a black hole, and

648
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: I want to talk to you if you're happy talking

649
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: about it about your miscarriage.

650
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, because.

651
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: This for me, I think for a lot of people

652
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 3: listening to this show. You know, these are all lovely

653
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: ideas that we all have about how to get through

654
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: our lives. And that's interesting when you're gardening and you're

655
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: cooking and stuff. But then when you've got something that's.

656
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 4: Like truly.

657
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 3: Like pure grief, that's a really hard thing to be

658
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 3: interested in. So can you talk through just like what

659
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: happened and how you went through it.

660
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's a really interesting one. It's wrought with

661
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: many layers of complexity. So my ex really wanted a child,

662
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: but I was the whole time. He was like, I

663
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: definitely want to, you know, That's always been part of

664
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: my plan. And I thought I always did. But I

665
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: was in a position where I was. I was my

666
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: earning capacity was higher than his, and we built a

667
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: lifestyle around my income and I didn't, and I was

668
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: starting to get older and that was starting to make

669
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: me feel a bit frigid about the idea. It just started.

670
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: It was like we had heaps of time and then

671
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: suddenly you're like forty, you know, and I was like, oh, man,

672
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: I actually don't know how this would work now, because

673
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know how this would work,

674
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: like would I have to And because I'm like, I'm

675
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: freelance essentially, do you.

676
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: Mean like financially working practically as well?

677
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: And also practically and just talking about being an individual, right,

678
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: I started to think about how so much of what

679
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: I do is about me being free, and I started

680
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: to think, I think if I had started earlier, I

681
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: would have had more courage and I would have bounced

682
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: back quicker with considering it. But as I got older,

683
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: I got more fixed in my ways and I got

684
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: more frightened about how it would encroach on my independence.

685
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: And as I'm getting older as a creative, there's so

686
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: many ideas I want to express, right with my art

687
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: and all these other projects that I have, And I

688
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: was starting to think, do I have a child or

689
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: do I keep creating? And is my creating the child?

690
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: Like I have to pick right, and you have to

691
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: as a woman. That's something that is unique to a woman,

692
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: right yep, And for time and eternity will be the

693
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: unique issue, that's yeah. And so anyway, I got pregnant

694
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: by accident and it was interesting because even though I

695
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: was really worried about it, when it happened, I don't

696
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: know whatever, the hormones at kicking, and I was like elated,

697
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: love the idea.

698
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 5: It was great.

699
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: And then on the twelfth week, it was literally on

700
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: the day that I could tell people I lost the baby, and.

701
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 4: Oh, that's yeah, I know.

702
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: I I don't know what you guys think having children.

703
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: I actually think that it's a really weird thing that

704
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: we're encouraged to not tell people when I think it's

705
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: the opposite. But it might be my brain type. I

706
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: think if you tell everyone, then when it does happen,

707
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: or if it happens, which is like a third is

708
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: it a third of pregnancy?

709
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's as high as it.

710
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 5: People would have no idea it's that high.

711
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. And so how I processed

712
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: it was with those figures. I was like, I'm not special.

713
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: I always go back to you are a dot, you

714
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: are not. You mentioned that earlier, and I always go

715
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: back to not instead of why me? Why not me?

716
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: And that gets me out of everything.

717
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 4: What's gratitude again? Is it?

718
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah?

719
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: And I'm still so grateful that I got to go

720
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: through that experience because I actually went through the full labor.

721
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I read that to you and yeah at home.

722
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah that's pretty full.

723
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 4: Wow with your partner there.

724
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, oh my god, oh.

725
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: My god, I didn't really know what was happening. That

726
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: is so full of Yeah. And then I actually saw

727
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: that so you.

728
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 3: Birth wow wow wow Yeah and oh wow yeah yeah

729
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: was it just the two of you?

730
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: It was just a too oh man.

731
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't imagine anything more traumatic.

732
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and oh.

733
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: It's quite it's it's so intense that it's it's quite

734
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: surreal in my head, like it's a bit dream state

735
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: because I was in a lot of pain and I

736
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: was losing so much blood and but it's interesting, like

737
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: I had a really good cry for about a day, yeah,

738
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: and then all that other stuff just kicked in. I

739
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: was just like, it's like a third of every all

740
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: the women, like a third of us go through this.

741
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: And and I was never able to get pregnant again,

742
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: which I'm actually also fine about because I was sort

743
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: of so so not sure about it anyway, and then

744
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: John and I ultimately ended up breaking up, so I

745
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: was really grateful because I thought, oh, that's just you know,

746
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: and now he's actually got a baby with a new

747
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: partner now, which I'm so I'm so happy for them

748
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: because that's what he's wanted the whole time. But yeah,

749
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: I just kind of, yeah, I'm still really grateful. I

750
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: still have the picture of the ultra sound on my

751
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: fridgehech it creeps people. I laugh at everything, guys, Everything

752
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: is worth laughing at.

753
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 4: You have to.

754
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: Honestly, it feels so dark, but you have to. And

755
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: and because it reminds me of this thing that I

756
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: was able to experience as a woman. I went through pregnancy.

757
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: I actually went through the process of birthing. I know

758
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: what that feels like, and I know what it feels

759
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: like to have something growing inside me, which is just

760
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: such a special thing, you know. So yeah, that's how

761
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: I went through it.

762
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 4: It's interesting.

763
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: So I wanted the thing that you mentioned, which so

764
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: we had a miscarriage as well, and before we had

765
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 3: our daughter, and we had the same I mean, it's

766
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: obviously not for everyone, but we had the same approach,

767
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: which was like, I'd rather tell people what's going on

768
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 3: here beforehand, so that if it did happen, you know,

769
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: that was cool. But then interestingly, when it did.

770
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 4: When we lost the baby.

771
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: I think it was about eight weeks, maybe even less.

772
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: Actually it was much, very small, and it was just

773
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: like the first scam we did. It was like no,

774
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: but I find it funny that, you know, again, talking

775
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: about sharing your mood or telling people how you're going,

776
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: expressing how you're going, that the hard part wasn't And

777
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 3: I think this is just in general about telling your

778
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: loved ones how you're feeling.

779
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 4: It's kind of this. The hard part was watching the expression.

780
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: Like was watching other people, like how upset they were

781
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: for you.

782
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: I take back. I love it when people change my mind.

783
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: I completely. So going back to that, I don't think

784
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: people should tell people because you're right. It's actually managing

785
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: other people and you're dealing with your own grief and

786
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: then you have to babysit there.

787
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: No, no, you're right and you look at them and

788
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: you're like, oh my god, I don't want to have

789
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: to tell you this, and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry,

790
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: and they start crying and you're like, I can't do

791
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: this right ex actually I've got my own thing going

792
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 3: on right now.

793
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also people are so orkis with grief.

794
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 4: Oh, it's so strange.

795
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't like it has such a spectrum of reactions,

796
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: Like people can be sometimes so over the top.

797
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, they're compensated.

798
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: That makes you want to punch them.

799
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: I almost feel like you need to say, like I

800
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: almost if we did it, if we get pregnant again,

801
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 3: I will almost I almost feel like you need to

802
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: or maybe let's just say this for all grief in general.

803
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 4: When you tell your friends you're almost into stated them beforehand.

804
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 3: Hey, look I'm going to tell you this thing, but

805
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 3: like I just needed to be like rock solid for me, yeah,

806
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: a little bit, like I know that you're probably feeling

807
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 3: as well, but like just prefacing the fact that this

808
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 3: birth doesn't go well. If I turned to you in

809
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: six or eight or ten or twelve weeks and say

810
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: it hasn't worked out, I just need you to kind

811
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: of like buy me a beer and like, yeah, just

812
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: stay strong, yeah, just for me, and also and crying

813
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: your own time, and also.

814
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: Like you're actually allowed to laugh as.

815
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 5: Well, you know about it.

816
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, completely a different human.

817
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's still us.

818
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 2: It's still Yeah, all falls happened, but we can still

819
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: That's good advice I can I ask you.

820
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 5: Then I find there so much in listening about that.

821
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: How then can it can be annoying probably the wrong word,

822
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: but when people get emotional around what you're going through.

823
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: When you cried for a day and that was your

824
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: moment to grieve, were you alone?

825
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 4: Yes?

826
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: And I liked it that way because I want to

827
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: know that I'm doing it myself. I don't like I

828
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: think if this is just me personally. I think if

829
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm leaning on too many people, I'm wondering, I'm suspicious

830
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: then that that it's them that's helping me. I need

831
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: to know that I've properly dealt with it on my

832
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: own so that if I'm like, if they're not around,

833
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: I have really dealt with it.

834
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: It's the hardest thing that me and my partner, but

835
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: everyone's so different. Absolutely, I'm alone crier, yeah, sufferer, And

836
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: for a long time I've thought that was the wrong

837
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: way to do it, and I've been a bit self

838
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: conscious that, oh, no, I'm doing it badly if I

839
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 2: should be allowing people to be the shoulder.

840
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 5: But it doesn't, it doesn't work for me.

841
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 1: No, it makes me like, uh, you know that theory

842
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: of like kids, babies that have been abandoned and if

843
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: they've done these tests to show like if you put

844
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: I think it's to do with control crying, and so

845
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: if you leave them in a room and you don't

846
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: come to their yeah, but if you if you control

847
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: and you come in and you still give them a

848
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: little comforting cuddle, but then they know you're still there,

849
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: they still know it's safe even though they're distressed. Right,

850
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: But if you abandon them when they're crying uncontrolled, when

851
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: you go to give when you eventually go to give

852
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: them a cuddle, they'll do this banana bend reaction. But

853
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: they want to like flink, they'd rather fling themselves out

854
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: of your arms. It's like mistrust.

855
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 5: So yeah, you've got that.

856
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: No, No, I just feel like when someone's like overly,

857
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: you're like, no, I've definitely. It just makes me think

858
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: of that picture of just going no, I can't. It's

859
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: like it's too overwhelming. I need to just do this

860
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: on my own.

861
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 5: I need to be alone.

862
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, I got.

863
00:43:59,320 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 5: That's taken.

864
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I found that. So because my partner will then

865
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: she'll she'll try to like because she'll know something's up.

866
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: And then what we've said when we're both in a

867
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: good place is like you did. The best thing you

868
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: can do is leave me alone. But then she shows

869
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 2: because she's like, I'm worried about It's instinctive and I'm.

870
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: Like to deal them with love languages as well as yeah,

871
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: and also how how families raised.

872
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 3: In a family, because that's my role in the family

873
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 3: as well as the caretaker. As soon as you see

874
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 3: someone suffering around you like, right, get me in there.

875
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 4: What do you need? Yeah, you know, you need people

876
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 4: that are close to you to be like fuck off.

877
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I need I need a loneliness.

878
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: And my ex John O, my second my second husband,

879
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: he came from a really big family, and so I

880
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: think the mum was just like, Okay, I need to

881
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: create this like very democratic situation. Whoever's done the wrong thing,

882
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, you just hug and make up. And

883
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: for me, I'm like, no, no, no, no, we need

884
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: to just back up and talk specifically about this issue

885
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: out very very and he was like no, like we

886
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: need to just make up and it's all good, right,

887
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: But I'm like what, no, So just everyone has such

888
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: different ways of sating whatever that thing is.

889
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, yeah, I think I've got some audio of.

890
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: You actually, which I wouldn't mind playing. This is probably

891
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 3: the last thing we'll have time to talk to you about,

892
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: but I think it really ties in with this confronting

893
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: what you're going through.

894
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: That felt like five minutes.

895
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: I know you could keep going, but this is you

896
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 3: talking about exactly that, about being able to talk and

897
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: confront with yourself what you're going through, which is really

898
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: what this podcast is all about.

899
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: I like bringing this up because I think it's something

900
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: that people should talk about, and I think it's this

901
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: sort of silent grief that women have to go through

902
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: all the time. I really like to confront my emotions upfront,

903
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: like I think.

904
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: It's really healthy.

905
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: I don't like to bury anything. Yeah I do. I'm

906
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: very head on. I'm like, let's go.

907
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 4: Do you think that's ever damaging at all?

908
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: No?

909
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's really good because I just think

910
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 4: that's sorry, just to that point.

911
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 3: The reason I'm asking that is, I think it's ironic

912
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 3: because I think that literally our mo as we go

913
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: through our lives is if you're going through something, to

914
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: run the other way from it for as long as

915
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 3: you can, until you get to a point where you

916
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: end up in therapy or you've got a friend or

917
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: you have a breakdown where you go, oh, hang on

918
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 3: a second, I'd better realize that I'm going through something.

919
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 3: And I also think that people get magically good at

920
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 3: lying to themselves about the fact that they're going through something. Yes,

921
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 3: until they again they end up in therapy or they

922
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 3: have a breakdown or they don't close to them goes

923
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 3: that you're not good at the moment.

924
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: Have you ever watched the episode of those Horde shows.

925
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: It's like doing that but with emotion, right, So with me, quickly,

926
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: I'm like, as soon as I get something, chuck it out,

927
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: chuck it out, like I just process it. So even now,

928
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: and we're still going through stuff with Johno in my head,

929
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: even though he's we've been divorced for like five six

930
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: years now. And sometimes right I'll be alone at home

931
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: and I'll do something, something goes wrong and I was like,

932
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: oh my god, if john O was here, would totally

933
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: have blamed him. Yeah, oh wow, Right, And you need

934
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: that separation when you know, when you're trying to make

935
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: things work, it's so hard to see the forest from

936
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: the trees, and you all you both just dig your

937
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: heels in. So no one's like giving or letting and

938
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: absorbing and processing. Everyone's just reacting reacting. So sometimes we

939
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: just get this bizarre phone call. He's so lovely because

940
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: it was like puts me on speakerphones, so he's my

941
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: partner knows it's nothing weird, and John, sorry, it's bit randomly,

942
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: are right, It's like, what are you doing? Go, I'm

943
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,959
Speaker 1: just yeah, dropping some wood whatever.

944
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 4: I'm just making that up.

945
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: And I go, so I just did this thing today.

946
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: I took the mail out blah blah blah and lost

947
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: this thing. And I just know that if you were here,

948
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: I would have blamed it. And I just want to

949
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: say that for all the times that I used to

950
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: do that to you and you used to complain about

951
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: I know what that is. Now I get it because

952
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: I'm alone and I know what.

953
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 4: I know what I did.

954
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: But when you were around and you complained about it,

955
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: I didn't want to know about it.

956
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

957
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: So it's so good, And this is one of the

958
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: great things. Having a good relationship with your ex is

959
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: so good because you keep you get to keep venting

960
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: all your stuff. And then he would then go oh po,

961
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: like I did you know? Yeah, But I was also this,

962
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, and it's so healing, and it's just this

963
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: constant thing and I probably do like three phone calls

964
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: a year kind of.

965
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: Thing with him where you just confront something that you

966
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 3: felt during the relationship and you're still processing that now.

967
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: Because things will just pop up, like a specific thing

968
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: that he used to say to me, like, you know,

969
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: you're very harsh about this kind of thing. I'm like, no,

970
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: you're whatever. And then I'll just catch myself doing it

971
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: because when you're alone, you soften because you've got nothing.

972
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 4: To protect yourself from it.

973
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like that's when I go, oh my god,

974
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: that is so bad that I used to do that

975
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: at the time. No wonder He's like he told me

976
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: he was feeling damaged and I was just like ignoring it.

977
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: You know. It's quite astounding how good we are in

978
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 3: relationships or in our own lives as individuals of like

979
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 3: concealing the thing that's actually going on. Yeah, it's astounding.

980
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 3: Like I'm always even someone as in touch with themselves

981
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: as you are. We've just spoken about how your art

982
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: can help you and making food can help you in

983
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: gardening home. You're constantly thinking about it, interested in it

984
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 3: that even for someone like you, you're still surprised by

985
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 3: a lie that you've told yourself about an emotion.

986
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

987
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

988
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 4: So you can't trust yourself, No, can't you?

989
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

990
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 5: I need to build the evidence.

991
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes I go to mental court where I'm like, Okay,

992
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 2: you've got this thought about something that's going on, whether

993
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: it's an assumption.

994
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 5: Then I'm like, how would you present that in court?

995
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, I just know it's like would

996
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 5: that hold up in court? What's your evidence?

997
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah?

998
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 5: And then I've got to go into the evidence and

999
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 5: I'm like, I've got.

1000
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, two plus two equals seven because I feel.

1001
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 4: It is exactly seven.

1002
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 3: And I try and see your relationship counselor every month,

1003
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: even if things are really good. And then like that's

1004
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: because like and often I will build my case, like

1005
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 3: I just go I used to do lost, so I

1006
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 3: go straight into legal mode where I'll have I'll have

1007
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: a proper case in the back of my mind. I'll

1008
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 3: be like she's fucked here, Like I'm in a.

1009
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 4: Game over.

1010
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is what a couple therapy is all about.

1011
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 4: I'm winning.

1012
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 3: And then I'll get two minutes in a couple of

1013
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 3: therapist will be like, you're a dickhead.

1014
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: But they don't even need to go into it.

1015
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: They're just like just the whole tone that you've got

1016
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 3: going on here, like this isn't it, This isn't a combat,

1017
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 3: but you naturally try and fortify.

1018
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 4: Your walls in a relationship because you said to protect yourself.

1019
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the key is actually curiosity. If you

1020
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: can reframe anger into curiosity, like be curious about why

1021
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: that makes that person feel so angry. I reckon, you've

1022
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: got the keys to a lot of problem solving if

1023
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: you just reframe it. And I think esther peerl has

1024
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: taught me so much about that, Like she's like, just

1025
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: reframe it and take yourself out of that picture. Like,

1026
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: and it's so useful because most problems stem from ego,

1027
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: So when you look outside of that is when you

1028
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: find a lot of the solutions. Like sorry, just just quickly.

1029
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: I talk about this thing recently about how you know

1030
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: a lot of obviously people that have had like cheated

1031
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: on each other come to her, you know, and she said,

1032
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: often the spouse that's been cheated on focuses on the

1033
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: person that the partner's cheated with, right, And she said,

1034
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 1: but it's actually, if you think about it, it's actually

1035
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: more about the feeling that they got from that person.

1036
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: It's actually like irrelevant who that person is. They were

1037
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: looking for a version of themselves, right, that that person

1038
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: gave them that they allow them to Yeah, they allowed

1039
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: them to be So when you look at that, it

1040
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: like depersonalizes like the object of desire and it's like, oh, wait,

1041
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: what am I doing? That's not allowing them.

1042
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 4: This person to do that thing that.

1043
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: They feel version of yourself? Yeah, and then yeah, it's

1044
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: really profound. So it's just like always I think reframing

1045
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: and if you're laying, you have to be curious. I

1046
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: think that is.

1047
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 4: I think that's such a wonderful take home from this

1048
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 4: chat post. Thank you so much.

1049
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 3: Is this idea of space and curiosity, which is obviously

1050
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 3: so pivotal to who you are now. And I love

1051
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 3: the fact that it's not there's no answer to this,

1052
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 3: there's no game for you either. It's the kind of

1053
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: the enjoyment is in the curiosity.

1054
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, guys, thank you. I think I love

1055
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: you guys. It's no, it's so nice, like I have

1056
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 1: to say, like doing this a fair bit You're only

1057
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: as good as the questions you're being asked, and you,

1058
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: guys are like a mirror. So thank you for just

1059
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: letting me play and talk and pleasure.

1060
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 5: Thanks, thank you.

1061
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 4: Thanks po bye

1062
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: And a fan and a man of